I set a boundary

[unicorn2014]

 

I couldn't take the conflict anymore. After asking my partner to have his lawyer call me and being told no I reached my limit. I am a grown woman. No man talks to me that way. After 24 hours of publicly arguing on the phone I couldn't take the drama anymore so I sent my fiancé a text , paraphrased from my previous thread on the staying board that stated I would be happy to resume the relationship once he provided me with confirmation of his filing for divorce. He of course called me and accused me of ending the relationship and I had to gently remind him that I did not do that but merely put the relationship on hold until he can give me what I asked for. I'm expecting all hell to break loose now however I have a program call this afternoon, a meeting tonight, and therapy on Friday so I should be ok, right?  

[thisagain]

Woohoo! 

Glad you have so much support lined up. Stay strong!

[unicorn2014]

Thank you this again, this will not be easy, my fiancé was one of my main support people which is why it took me so long to set the boundary in the first place.

[Ceruleanblue]

Uhm, of course you'll be all right! You've got this! Remind yourself that you aren't asking for anything major. He should want to allay your concerns, and the only reason I can see why he wouldn't is that he CAN'T. I mean, he's lied to you before about this, and you are obviously a smart woman, so you have every right to want proof.

If he wants the relationship to continue, it's a simple matter. He wouldn't be in this position if he hadn't been less than forthcoming in the first place.

[Anise]

Yes! Stay strong!

What you are asking for is reasonable and is what you deserve: verification that he is truly "available" for continuing a relationship with you.

It is okay to go out and make new friends.  Spend some time away from the phone and other ways he can contact you with.  It will help immensely.

[unicorn2014]

CB wrote

, of course you'll be all right!

He's already called me to tell me there's no need for me to call him after he talks to lawyer and there's no need to talk about it next week at the time we were going to talk about boundaries, and then he asked me if I wanted to FaceTime tonight. I told him this isn't about what I want. I've never set a boundary with him before and I don't know how to proceed.

[thisagain]

What were you planning to do to enforce this boundary? What does putting the relationship on hold look like to you - no contact or something else? I think you should stick to your plan regardless of what he's saying.

It doesn't really matter what he's saying or wanting, until he's meeting your condition of confirming the filed divorce. This is about YOU and the kind of relationship that YOU want to be in (which is not a relationship with a married man).

I think it would be totally valid to tell him that you won't talk with him or look at his messages unless you can see that the message is a picture of divorce papers (or however you wanted him to send you the proof). Harsh, but well-deserved and legitimate considering how he's been jerking you around.

[Daniell85]

I can tell you how to enforce the boundary. You told him the boundary. The relationship is on hold until he provides factual information that the divorce has been filed for.

You just took a big step and if you don't enforce it, he is not going to take you seriously in the future.

Relationship on hold means he doesn't get face time or friendly/romantic emails or telephone calls with you. No meetings, no overnights, no him moving to your area and getting welcomed into your home. It means you don't reach out to him for anything at all. Nor your child.

You have effectively ended the relationship until he sets the situation straight with you.

That being said, you already have "check in" points it seems. So check in then and see if he is taking care of things. If he isn't, then keep your boundary.

It's hard. I have had to do it, too. Not happy about it, but it has to be done in my case for sure.

[formflier]

You just took a big step and if you don't enforce it, he is not going to take you seriously in the future.

Daniell85 has identified the most critical element of this. 


Below is a lesson that explains why this is critical.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0


Unicorn2014,

I'm proud of you!  Nice work!   

FF

[flourdust]

Apologies for jumping in like this. I'm new to this board, but I've been reading yours and other's stories for a few months to try to relate everyone's problems (and solutions) to my situation.

I only recently started establishing boundaries for the very first time in my relationship. Formflier is right -- my experience has been that they work very hard, almost single-mindedly, to destroy your boundaries. Demands, nagging, arguing, debating, whining, pleading, crying, reasoning, enlisting others to back them up -- you name it.

It might not be over quickly. My wife has been trying to break down my boundaries for over a month now. But if I (you) give in, then I (you) teach them only one lesson -- that the boundaries can be broken. And if you ever try to set another one, it will be much, much harder.

Stay strong.

[unicorn2014]

What were you planning to do to enforce this boundary? What does putting the relationship on hold look like to you - no contact or something else? I think you should stick to your plan regardless of what he's saying.

I didn't have a plan, I just knew I had to take action. I knew what I was going to say but I didn't know what I was going to do after that. Like I told form flier in my other message initially my partner pushed back but now he's left me alone.

It doesn't really matter what he's saying or wanting, until he's meeting your condition of confirming the filed divorce. This is about YOU and the kind of relationship that YOU want to be in (which is not a relationship with a married man).

Actually as I told form flier in my other thread, it wasn't discovering that there was no divorce case online that pushed me over the edge, it was him telling me no when I asked him to have his lawyer call me and tell me he filed. I can not being told no by my partner. It makes me feel like I am a child and he is my father and I do not like that, especially since my  partner already put me down by telling me I have daddy issues, I'm a stupid little girl, in moments of dysregulation.

I think it would be totally valid to tell him that you won't talk with him or look at his messages unless you can see that the message is a picture of divorce papers (or however you wanted him to send you the proof). Harsh, but well-deserved and legitimate considering how he's been jerking you around.

Its funny you say that because he often accuses me of jerking him around. Its like one of my former therapists told me, we all have these tendencies, its just that people with personality disorders have them to an extreme... .

[unicorn2014]

Relationship on hold means he doesn't get face time or friendly/romantic emails or telephone calls with you. No meetings, no overnights, no him moving to your area and getting welcomed into your home. It means you don't reach out to him for anything at all. Nor your child.

We haven't had an overnight since June and I already told him there would no be more overnights until he filed for divorce. The part about me not reaching out to him for anything at all is the hard part. In regards to my child I am not going to tell her not to talk to him because I have a problem with him. As someone else said, that is a separate relationship.

That being said, you already have "check in" points it seems. So check in then and see if he is taking care of things. If he isn't, then keep your boundary.

It's hard. I have had to do it, too. Not happy about it, but it has to be done in my case for sure.

We actually don't have any check in points, I told him I would call him tomorrow after he talked to his lawyer, he told me there would be no need for that, I told him I would check in with him next Tuesday when we were supposed to talk about boundaries and he told me there would be no need for that. Then he told me I was free to call him or FaceTime whenever I wanted. All I can say is I am very confused so I am just being quiet and seeing if I can sort things out internally.

[unicorn2014]

You just took a big step and if you don't enforce it, he is not going to take you seriously in the future.

Daniell85 has identified the most critical element of this. 


Below is a lesson that explains why this is critical.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0


Unicorn2014,

I'm proud of you!  Nice work!   

FF

I understand that form flier and I am not sure that no contact until he files for divorce is the approach I want to take. I do agree with what lonely child has been saying about once this conflict is resolved there will just be another one so I'm trying to take a look at the bigger picture. I will be starting my new dbt class in a couple of weeks and I am now back in weekly therapy.

Things are _really_ complicated with my partner. When I asked him to have his lawyer call me he made a snide comment about reporting to mommy. The ironic thing is we initially set up our r/s as a DD/lg r/s until  his BPD made that dynamic unsafe  for me so I stopped calling him daddy, stopped wearing the collars he gave me.

The other thing in reference to Daniell85 saying don't reach out to him for anything, he has been both financially and emotionally supportive to me and my daughter, helping me with medical, educational and other expenses as well as being one of my main support people in regards to being a single parent and to having ptsd. So deciding to go "no contact" he until he shows me the divorce papers is not an easy decision to make. The reason I made it is as I said because I did not like being told no and because I could not stand the level of conflict that arose out of my request to have his lawyer call me. I was starting to argue with him on the phone in public and in my apartment again, and he was telling me things like I'm abusive, I'm putting things on him, I'm a bully, etc. I told him he may never tell me those things again. So that's where its at right now. Very confusing and perplexing to me, however I did have to tell my daughter I put our relationship on hold but that doesn't mean she can't talk to him. As I believe you said their relationship is their relationship and I'm not going to deprive my daughter of her stepfather just because I'm not happy with how he's treating me. That's the same approach I took with her father after the divorce, by the way.

[formflier]

 

I'm not so concerned about low contact, no contact or EXACTLY what you do.

Please read the lesson for all the details.

The issue is that you pick an approach and BE CONSISTENT.

pwBPD try to spread chaos... .consistency is kryptonite to that...

FF

[pallavirajsinghani]

Please allow me to give the power back to you, where it truly belongs.

Boundary is not something you set for him, to him.  Boundary is something you set for yourself.  It is your line in the sand.

And so is the enforcement in your power and under your control.

As an example:  you may set the boundary that you will not talk to him until xyz.  You cannot tell him not to talk to you until xyz.  Rather, it is for you not to talk until xyz is done. 

Perhaps I should put it more simply:

A:  "I will not pick up the clothes lying on the floor anymore."... .this is a boundary within A's control, the power belongs to A, the enforcement is within the control of A.

If A says to B,  ":)o not throw the clothes on the floor anymore... ." the power now has shifted to B, the enforcement of the boundary has now shifted to B.  To B it will seem to be dictatorial and controlling and therefore, there will be a natural impulse NOT to follow the boundary.

So, I agree in that consistency is extremely important.   And possibly the best way to communicate a boundary is to say something like,  "I will not talk to you until xyz is done"... .rather than,  ":)on't talk to me until xyz is done".

Hope I make sense... .

[Daniell85]

I think we have different parenting styles.

I raised my son pretty much by myself from the time he was 8 years old until he went to college. I didn't remarry. My primary concern was him.

Your daughter is 15. What she needs is her mom in a good emotional/mental state.

I am very worried that you have gotten in deep with someone who has a whole world he is hiding from you. Please be careful.

[unicorn2014]

I'm not so concerned about low contact, no contact or EXACTLY what you do.

Please read the lesson for all the details.

The issue is that you pick an approach and BE CONSISTENT.

pwBPD try to spread chaos... .consistency is kryptonite to that...

FF

I will read the lesson and get back to you, perhaps post there or start a new post here.

[unicorn2014]

I think we have different parenting styles.

I raised my son pretty much by myself from the time he was 8 years old until he went to college. I didn't remarry. My primary concern was him.

Your daughter is 15. What she needs is her mom in a good emotional/mental state.

I am very worried that you have gotten in deep with someone who has a whole world he is hiding from you. Please be careful.

Thank you for your concern. I've been successfully raising my daughter on my own since she was 4.5 years old. She is  my primary concern, to the point where my partner has criticized me for it, and as a result she is doing excellent in school, has a healthy social life, is physically fit. She is a well adjusted, resilient, bright and strong teen. She also has a mother who has ptsd who would have challenges  whether or not she was in a r/s with a pwBPD.

I should add that while my child's father has a criminal record my current partner does not, and that is how I define a bad character.

[unicorn2014]

Please allow me to give the power back to you, where it truly belongs.

Boundary is not something you set for him, to him.  Boundary is something you set for yourself.  It is your line in the sand.

And so is the enforcement in your power and under your control.

As an example:  you may set the boundary that you will not talk to him until xyz.  You cannot tell him not to talk to you until xyz.  Rather, it is for you not to talk until xyz is done. 

Perhaps I should put it more simply:

A:  "I will not pick up the clothes lying on the floor anymore."... .this is a boundary within A's control, the power belongs to A, the enforcement is within the control of A.

If A says to B,  ":)o not throw the clothes on the floor anymore... ." the power now has shifted to B, the enforcement of the boundary has now shifted to B.  To B it will seem to be dictatorial and controlling and therefore, there will be a natural impulse NOT to follow the boundary.

So, I agree in that consistency is extremely important.   And possibly the best way to communicate a boundary is to say something like,  "I will not talk to you until xyz is done"... .rather than,  ":)on't talk to me until xyz is done".

Hope I make sense... .

Yes Palla, you make sense, and as someone said in another thread, I'm not sure I'm taking the right approach to setting a personal boundary by saying I won't talk to him until xyz happens. It has been suggested that a better boundary to set would be that we remain in a LDR until he gets his house in order and I'm agreement with that and even tried to tell my partner that previously and he rejected the idea. I need to read the post on extinction burst and get back to this thread later.

[patientandclear]

Are you OK with being indefinitely in a LDR?  Because if you take the stance you're contemplating (LDR only till he proves he filed), you could be in that posture for a long time.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Are you OK with being indefinitely in a LDR?  Because if you take the stance you're contemplating (LDR only till he proves he filed), you could be in that posture for a long time.

If he has not filed yet there's a good possibility he has no intention to.  It doesn't take long to file, and if he has his lawyer do it, it can be done by eod tomorrow.

If he has no intention to file, you'll be in limbo for quite some time, until something else prompts you to set a new consequence.

If he does intend to file, it's reasonable to break contact for a few days (max) until he does. 

If he comes through I'd follow it up to ensure his wife is actually served the papers... .

[Daniell85]

Having a criminal record just means the person with bad character got caught.

Ethically speaking there are many things people do that are morally wrong, but lack the criteria for an arrest. Lives are destroyed by those people.

From a slightly different angle, I think you said that your fiancé and you are sub/dom, with you as the dom. His wife is also a dom to him. Did you consider that he is a sub to 2 doms with different goals?

He cannot do two opposing things at the same time.

[unicorn2014]

Are you OK with being indefinitely in a LDR?  Because if you take the stance you're contemplating (LDR only till he proves he filed), you could be in that posture for a long time.

That position was suggested to me as an alternative as the position I'm taking now is throwing the r/s out of balance. Filing for divorce is not the only affair he is putting in order. I personally feel more comfortable with the r/s remaining ld until he puts his affairs in order. However things keep coming to light, like what if there is no lawyer, and a boundary is something i set for myself, not for him, that there is a lot of confusion. I'm not an expert at this or even experienced.

[unicorn2014]

Having a criminal record just means the person with bad character got caught.

Ethically speaking there are many things people do that are morally wrong, but lack the criteria for an arrest. Lives are destroyed by those people.

From a slightly different angle, I think you said that your fiancé and you are sub/dom, with you as the dom. His wife is also a don to him. Did you consider that he is a sub to 2 doms with different goals?

He cannot do two opposing things at the same time.

Hi Daniell,

No, I did not say I was the Domme, I said we were in a DD/lg r/s until it became apparent that his BPD made that r/s unsafe for me.

His wife is not a Domme to him and he has little contact with his wife now, and has not lived with her for over 3 years. I don't think his wife is the problem here.

I think I would feel more comfortable in the future if you were to phrase your question to me as ":)id I understand you correctly when you said you and your partner were in a D/s with you as the Domme?" and then wait for me to reply. Do you think you could do that?

[unicorn2014]

Are you OK with being indefinitely in a LDR?  Because if you take the stance you're contemplating (LDR only till he proves he filed), you could be in that posture for a long time.

If he has not filed yet there's a good possibility he has no intention to.  It doesn't take long to file, and if he has his lawyer do it, it can be done by eod tomorrow.

If he has no intention to file, you'll be in limbo for quite some time, until something else prompts you to set a new consequence.

If he does intend to file, it's reasonable to break contact for a few days (max) until he does. 

If he comes through I'd follow it up to ensure his wife is actually served the papers... .

Hi isitherorisitme,

thank you for reading and replying. I'm finding this whole conversation exhausting and kind of scary. Some of the things people are saying to me really frighten me. It doesn't necessarily feel safe to me to talk about such a personal thing with no protection whatsoever however I need to get help.

I hear what you are saying, and I understand that breaking contact is for me not for him. I think what you are saying about for a few days is more reasonable then the no contact thing he was proposing to me last night.

All I can tell you is I find this whole thing overwhelming and that is a fact. 

[Daniell85]

If you will re-read the post, I said I think you said.

It means I am not sure you said, and was not clear on it. The abbreviations are confusing when one is not part of that community.

If you feel you want to clarify, then that is up to you. If you prefer to take offense, and counter at me, that is also up to you.

[unicorn2014]

If you will re-read the post, I said I think you said.

It means I am not sure you said, and was not clear on it. The abbreviations are confusing when one is not part of that community.

If you feel you want to clarify, then that is up to you. If you prefer to take offense, and counter at me, that is also up to you.

Hi Daniell,

Thank you. My partner and I are actually not a part of that community either. DD/lg was just a way we had of describing our r/s and it when it became obvious that his BPD traits made that untenable I stopped interacting with him in that manner.

I wasn't offended, I was scared. It feels frightening to me to be talking about such personal matters out in public but I need help so I need to be open. I'm trying really hard to mean what I say and say what I mean however things do get misinterpreted in these open forums and that's no one's fault.

[Skip]

Is any of this healthy?

Someone has to ask this question. In reading this, it seems that this relationship is sailing into darker and darker waters. Its hard to see a healthy relationship emerging from the path that this is currently on.

A few points:

1. Withholding affection (or anything) with the promise it will return once he stops this perpetual lying and "proves it" is a very broken scenario - all around. I'm not sure what this would be called, but "values-boundaries" is not the term.

2. The partner (pwBPD) has shown bad character lying about being single, getting a divorce , etc. - and he continues to show bad character. This is very damaging to the relationship.

3. This effort (from the non) is nothing short of trying to manipulate or force him to show good character and intent. He's right when he says that demanding a verification phone calls from the lawyer is acting like a parent ('mommy to use his words) and very remedial. This is very damaging to the relationship.

I don't know your values, so I'll offer this as an EXAMPLE of how I would see boundaries at play here.

Ted, I _____ you and I appreciate the companionship, the interests in my daughter and the financial support, but I am only interested in a relationship build on openness and honesty (my value). To this point we have had significant level of dishonesty. To go forward, I need you to want to clear this up and to then do it. Tell me the truth on everything. I don't want to force it - if its not important to you then we just don't have the same values.

This is a value and a boundary.

The first question you have to ask yourself is do you stand behind this value - do you believe it.  If you don't, don't ask him to do it.

If the only choice he offers you is: dishonesty , companionship, the interests in my daughter and financial support, are you going to take it.  Are you going to buy into a relationship where, even when you catch him redhanded in a lie, the best you are going to get is his justifications for why he felt entitled to lie and your need to undust the best manipulation skills you can find to make him to stop on a case by case basis.  Some lies you just live with. Others you fight him tooth and nail to stop. Others you won't know about (like when his wife found out about you).

If you are ready to live this life, then honesty in a relationship is not your value and you won't convince anyone on a related boundary.

The battleground is not the filing of the court papers. Its the lie and his standing behind it, being unapologetic, not yielding. He already said to you that he lied about other things because he feared your reaction to the truth. He is not filing the papers, there is a significant reason (which may be understandable or may not), and there is not enough openness in the relationship for you to know what the reason is.

So this is a long way of saying that I think battling over the court filing is counter productive. I think value and the boundary have to be about honesty. And it is possible that he may not share this value with you - or he can't - he has some level of parallel life.

Good mental health is hard.

[unicorn2014]

1. Withholding affection (or anything) with the promise it will return once he stops this perpetual lying and "proves it" is a very broken scenario - all around. I'm not sure what this would be called, but "values-boundaries" is not the term.

Hi Skip,

Thank you for reading and replying, by replying to you it is helping me to become a better writer.  I did not say I was going to withhold affection or communication. In fact I was talking on this thread last night about how going no contact wasn't going to work for me.

2. The partner (pwBPD) has shown bad character lying about being single, getting a divorce , etc. - and he continues to show bad character. This is very damaging to the relationship.

When I asked him if he was married he asked me if I would let my man talk another woman like this even if nothing was going on. At the time I didn't know that meant he was married. He says he filed so he's going to get a new lawyer.

3. This effort (from the non) is nothing short of trying to manipulate or force him to show good character and intent. He's right when he says that demanding a verification phone calls from the lawyer is acting like a parent ('mommy to use his words) and very remedial. This is very damaging to the relationship.

He actually said that it was the lawyer who was mommy, vouching for him, not me.

If the only choice he offers you is: dishonesty , companionship, the interests in my daughter and financial support, are you going to take it.  Are you going to buy into a relationship where, even when you catch him redhanded in a lie, the best you are going to get is his justifications for why he felt entitled to lie and your need to undust the best manipulation skills you can find to make him to stop on a case by case basis.  Some lies you just live with. Others you fight him tooth and nail to stop. Others you won't know about (like when his wife found out about you).

That is the scary problem with these message boards, one word gets misplaced  and it has a whole different meaning. His wife knew about me the whole time, it is I who did not know about her.

The battleground is not the filing of the court papers. Its the lie and his standing behind it, being unapologetic, not yielding. He already said to you that he lied about other things because he feared your reaction to the truth. He is not filing the papers, there is a significant reason (which may be understandable or may not), and there is not enough openness in the relationship for you to know what the reason is.

He did not tell me that he was married because he didn't think he was married and he also knew that if I knew he was married I would walk, even if it was a dead marriage where they were living as roommates. He also maintains he filed and he had no idea that his lawyer didn't submit his papers to the clerk's office.

So this is a long way of saying that I think battling over the court filing is counter productive. I think value and the boundary have to be about honesty. And it is possible that he may not share this value with you - or he can't - he has some level of parallel life.

Good mental health is hard.

This point I agree with you on, that battling over the court filing is counter productive. He says he did not know the papers were not filed with the court. After discussing this on this thread last night I decided to back off and ask him to delay moving out here until he solved his personal problems. That is a boundary I can uphold: staying in a long distance relationship until he gets his house in order. Perhaps I should post about that so that people know that I have changed my boundary. Putting the relationship on hold was not a boundary I could live with. Thank you very much for taking the time to give me your feedback!  

[Skip]

He did not tell me that he was married because he didn't think he was married and he also knew that if I knew he was married I would walk, even if it was a dead marriage where they were living as roommates. He also maintains he filed and he had no idea that his lawyer didn't submit his papers to the clerk's office.

Thanks for listening to my thoughts on this. We all want the best for you and we want you to have a good grasp on the reality of your situation so that you are not caught off-guard later.

If this works for you (the quote above) then waiting from him to get his house in order makes sense. What makes sense to you is that's what matters most.