Difference between Stayers and Leavers?

[thisagain]

Hey everyone,

This board seems to be populated more with Leaving folks, but I hope everyone chimes in!

What do you think is the difference between the Stayers and the Leavers?

Particularly the happy and emotionally healthy Stayers, as opposed to the codependent, miserable, doormat/punching-bag stayers.

Some of the Stayers probably would have left if they didn't have kids or a marriage. But there are also some who are unmarried and no kids, and still choose to stay.

It doesn't seem to have much to do with the pwBPD, severity of their symptoms, or their willingness to engage in treatment. Everyone wishes their spouse's symptoms would improve, but some of the Staying spouses apparently have never gone near a therapist and have no clue there's anything wrong with their mental health.

I guess the pwBPD at least has to be functional enough to not end the relationship themselves, because if the pwBPD leaves for good, the non becomes a (reluctant) Leaver. Do yall think most of the Leavers started out as discarded would-be stayers? Are there any other patterns in the severity or type of the BPD symptoms?

I've been really surprised lately by the huge differences in how people on Staying and Leaving perceive the nature of a BPD relationship, the non's influence on the level of conflict, and the non's ability to achieve happiness within the relationship. I really identified with the Staying approach, and am having trouble adjusting to the usual Leaving advice that it's hopeless and we should all go NC yesterday. What do you think pushes us to one side or the other?

Do you think anyone in a relationship with any pwBPD can learn to be a Stayer? Should everyone learn to be a Stayer? If not, what separates who should stay and who should leave?

[LostGhost]

I would be one of those reluctant leavers. In my second go around, I remained really grounded by using the lessons. Validation and SET etc. and it really worked to diffuse situations that would have exploded in the first go around. But in the end I was still discarded. I have no idea why. I was ready to stay for life, no kids, not married, nothing tying me to her other than love and believing in us and our relationship bond. I think it didn't mean as much to her despite her words. Actions always speak louder.

I'm not sure there's a difference between a stayer and a leaver but thinks just my opinion. I think we all wanted these relationships to work out. But I do think there is a tremendous difference in the variety of pwBPD we all ended up with. If you had mine, maybe it could have worked. But for whatever reason the dynamic I had with mine didn't last. I'm shocked at times to hear of people being with their partners for 10-20+ years. That doesn't sound like the kind of BPD I know. I thought it was a hallmark of BPD to have a lengthy series of short and unstable relationships, moving from one partner to the next and back and forth. I can't even imagine my partner staying with someone for a year or two.

I think we all have the potential to be stayers if we're willing to put in the time to understand the disorder and use the tools effectively. Whether or not our partners decided to be on board with us staying is another matter entirely

[rj47]

Do you think anyone in a relationship with any pwBPD can learn to be a Stayer? Should everyone learn to be a Stayer? If not, what separates who should stay and who should leave?

I tried to stay... .25 years. Children, shared assets, family, friends, the good times that would carry me through the inevitable valleys... .and the debilitating FOG can be paralyzing. In the latter part of my life I began to realize I could no longer live in fear of the next episode to come. Its not just the unregulated behavior that is problematic, but the negative outlook that feeds every issue in life, however small and insignificant.

The idea of "what if" began to creep into my consciousness. What if life could be different. I was prepared to spend the rest of my life alone in misery rather than endure the despair. But, what if had something else in order for me.

[Cat Familiar]

I stayed with my first husband almost 20 years. Partly out of familiarity and habit, partly out of wishful thinking that if I just loved him enough, he would change.

Finally after his serial cheating episodes and violent behavior, I drew a boundary. I told myself another episode of either sort, and I'm out of here. Well, it happened and then I had a choice to make. I realized that either I had to end the marriage or I was just waiting to die.

I ended it and never regretted my choice for a minute. I was single and I dated a nice man who I suspect had BPD and then I married a man I'd known for many years who seemed "perfect" but then years later the BPD curse awakened.

BPD has been following me around ever since childhood with my mother being a rather typical unstable version. My current husband caught me by surprise since he is so functional otherwise, with a few exceptions. It was fun when I was in the blissfully ignorant phase.

[OnceConfused]

Some one might be mad at me for my comment here but since the question was asked:

The difference between stayers and leavers is the majority of Leavers will be much happier while the majority of stayers spend much time trying to survive and cope.

[patientandclear]

I'd say one difference is that skilled Stayers, for better and/or for worse depending on your view and values, learn to depersonalize stuff that I would call emotional abuse in other contexts. If it's not taken literally or seriously it's like it almost doesn't count. Not sure if that really works long term or if the wounds stack up somewhere invisible. And sometimes I wonder if all emotionally abusive relationships could be viewed through the same lens--just don't take any of it on board and life is a lot more survivable.

Some Stayers have a remarkable talent for this and seem to maintain their own happiness despite hurtful stuff that comes from their BPD person from time to time. I personally find this is not possible or desirable for me because I survived a prior abusive r/ship and and promised myself I would not sit through such things again. But I think that capacity, to de-personalize and not get all wounded from the comments and the leaving and the ambivalence, is a main difference btwn the groups.

I also do think that Leaving has lots of people whose pwBPD make the question of staying a moot point, because THEY ain't staying. Maybe for whatever reason these pwBPD are more able to leave or oriented toward flight.

[Turkish]

Personally, I'm not sure if I'm happier being left or if she had stayed/I'd tried harder.

I had a convo with my Ex's H (her affair partner) last week. A lot of her triggers aren't there anymore, but she still is who she is. At least she is working in herself. He said, "sometimes she gets so anxious, and I say 'you can't control everything, sometimes you just accept things as they are." I sensed minimal frustration from him. Me? I got that, and it made me angry. I was also afraid of being raged upon, even though she often told me that I needed to stand up to her more.

Though he has an unhealthy past which I won't go into, their dynamic seems to be working for now. I got angry, resentful, and depressed. I have a BPD mother. It may be harder for those of us with BPD parents to de-personalize and not be as triggered. I don't blame my mom, my Ex, nor me. We each are who we are. We can choose to change, or not.

From the Staying Board:

When we say we need to change ourselves, we mean... .We need to make ourselves healthy again.

We learn to communicate effectively...

We learn to set limits and define our own boundaries... and we learn to enforce them.

We learn to walk away from emotional dysregulation

We learn to allow the person with BPD their own feelings and lives and we allow the same for us

We stop trying to micromanage them, we stop trying to manipulate our lives to avoid unpleasent episodes, we allow them the space and time to regulate their emotions and we do the same for ourselves.

All of these things get us back on the track for emotional well being and also can greatly improve our relationships.

We certainly understand and support those that do choose to leave, yet this board is where we learn skills that  can improve us AND our relationships.

Steph

[unicorn2014]

That is a very good question. I know for myself I am veering more towards staying and not leaving because my partner has a sponsor, takes medication, and talks to a therapist when things get really bad. I also have recently learned just how much bad communication causes our problems (the four horsemen). For better or worse my partner made a commitment to me before he was fully out of his marriage. On the one hand that really irritates and annoys me, on the other hand it set a serious tone for the r/s from get go which works for me since I have a teen daughter from my previous marriage. I would say for me it is the elements of progress and commitment that keep me in the r/s, for starters.

[Cat Familiar]

A big difference also involves how functional the pwBPD is. I read about some people whose partners are hell on wheels and they're committed to staying, while I'd be packing my bags. Other pwBPD can be annoying at times but manageable, just like a partner without a personality disorder.

[hergestridge]

To be honest, I could have been one of those "good" stayers. Until cheating came into the picture (and it came *late* in our relationship). That left me hurt, resentful and unmotivated to unsupportive. But by then we had a little child and my wife was not in a condition to take care of a child on her own, so I did not want to break up with her. I became a stayer almost against my own will until she couldn't take it anymore and left.

But I will be perfectly honest. From the very start she bullied and manipulated me into staying. I had second thoughts the very first week she met, she noticed and the threats began there and then.

I so glad she is gone because I think every person deserves to be treated kindly. To not live in fear. To not have to fend of manipulation and lies on a regular basis. I fought many years for our relationship to work out, but when it was over it was like a huge boulder was lifted from my shoulders.

[babyducks]

hi thisagain,

I think to calculate the difference between Stayers and Leavers you would require quantum physics, differential calculus, and advanced string theory.    and a bottle of whiskey.       Okay I am just kidding but... .

Turkish reflects my thoughts with his quote from Steph.

We learn to allow the person with BPD their own feelings and lives and we allow the same for us.

Should everyone learn to be a Stayer? If not, what separates who should stay and who should leave?

I think the relationship skills and communication skills you can learn by having a Stayer mindset can serve you well in life and in your next relationship, regardless of who that is with, BPD or non.   The lessons might be tailored for a pwBPD but they are generally applicable to life.

I believe who should stay and who should leave comes down to how healthy the relationship is and how much potential there is for a healthy relationship to develop.   I'm on Staying because my partner and I are working together for a better relationship.

'ducks

[Lucky Jim]

Hey thisagain,

Great question so I'll throw in my $0.02.  I suspect that most Stayers perceive themselves as unworthy, because they don't believe that they deserve better.  Somehow the mistreatment fits.  I stayed for 16 years of marriage, so I should know.

Leavers, on the other hand, won't tolerate what is intolerable, nor will they accept the unacceptable.  Leavers need not withstand what they know is not OK.

It all starts, I suggest, with learning to value oneself, to treat oneself well and to care enough about oneself.  It's not selfish to have self-respect, friends, though that concept took me a long time to learn and absorb.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

I suspect that most Stayers perceive themselves as unworthy, because they don't believe that they deserve better... .Leavers, on the other hand, won't tolerate what is intolerable, nor will they accept the unacceptable.  Leavers need not withstand what they know is not OK... .It all starts, I suggest, with learning to value oneself, to treat oneself well and to care enough about oneself.  It's not selfish to have self-respect, friends, though that concept took me a long time to learn and absorb.

I heartily agree with this statement in many cases. My first marriage was a textbook example. Going into it, I didn't have a lot of self-confidence and my BPD/NPD husband systematically undermined my self-respect and belief in myself so that I wouldn't leave him.

I did a lot of therapy after the first marriage and remained single for a number of years. I was gobsmacked when I realized, after a few years of marriage to my current husband, that he had the jeckyl-hyde component of BPD. It took several years for the crazy to come out.

I stay because I've learned to cope with the weirdness and I can often see it coming and shut it down before it becomes full-blown. Or I can just do my thing while he's having a low-grade pity party for himself. It's not the marriage I hoped for, but he's got a lot of wonderful qualities, so I count my blessings.

[Svarl1]

Maybe what it comes down to, for a partner who is not - or no longer - codependent,  is:

"Am I left with enough of me to make a meaningful life?"

The answer will vary from person to person.

Also life is a journey, and ones dreams, aims and values may evolve over time. The extent that these are compatible with the limits of living with someone with a personality disorder, will determine the likelihood of being able to stay. So compatibility may improve or worsen over time.

When one is faced with limits to the flourishing of ones life (even if boundaries are placed there may still be limits), and these outweigh any benefits that may be present, one is choosing to make some kind of sacrifice of their potential. A healthy person may choose to do this willingly, others more grudgingly,  but we know that life is short, so eventually we may have to be honest and say that we are not willing to make that descent into utter resentment.

Then it will be time to go.

[thisagain]

Thank you for the thoughts, everyone!

I guess I see some of the Stayers, who seem to be genuinely happy and tell me that they have achieved some level of emotional intimacy and closeness with their partner, and I wonder why I couldn't have that. Some of their partners aren't in therapy or particularly interested in working on the relationship, but they still make it work.

I was learning and working hard at doing all the things on the list that Turkish quoted above. And honestly it just made it worse. Almost like she wanted to maintain the status quo level of drama, so she ramped up her baiting and picking fights.

And apart from the actual outcome of the relationship, I'm also curious why people tend to have such different ideas about the hope of being happy and having a basically functional relationship with a pwBPD? The Stayers seem to think everyone can substantially improve their relationship and their happiness with the tools. And then there are Leavers who really gave that a try, got cheated on or otherwise grievously hurt despite all their efforts, and are now convinced that (some if not all) pwBPD will always make you miserable no matter how hard you try.

[Turkish]

And apart from the actual outcome of the relationship, I'm also curious why people tend to have such different ideas about the hope of being happy and having a basically functional relationship with a pwBPD? The Stayers seem to think everyone can substantially improve their relationship and their happiness with the tools. And then there are Leavers who really gave that a try, got cheated on or otherwise grievously hurt despite all their efforts, and are now convinced that (some if not all) pwBPD will always make you miserable no matter how hard you try.

Maybe there's some black and white group-think in here  

Sometimes things work strategically over time; other times, tactical thinking works. Sometimes it's hard to realize that labels and diagnoses aside, our BPD loved ones are also individuals with free will of their own. Relationships with healthy partners, friends, or family members (on both sides) can be hard enough, no?

[pallavirajsinghani]

Staying or Leaving is not an issue of morality (Stayers are morally stronger than Leavers or vice versa)

Nor is it an issue of strength or weakness (strong people stay/weak people go or vice versa)

It is a matter of relative happiness.

Some people believe that they will be happier in the relationship and some believe that they will be happier without.

And then there are some who have elected to Stay, but become leavers because they are "discarded".

Some stay as a matter of religious beliefs, optimism that love will conquer all, because of children, because of practical reasons like money, because they are now completely engulfed, because of faith in God, because of commitment to the institution of marriage (vs. commitment to the spouse itself), because of lethargy, because of habit, because of fear of the unknown... .

Obversely, some leave because of commitment to fulfillment of their own internal self, faith in their own spirituality, belief that things may not change... .and so on... .some may believe later on in life that they may have bailed out too early... .

There is no right or wrong path... .except when issues of violence and threat to safety arise... .then the line in the sand is not blurry.

Whether to stay or leave is as personal as whether I like the spring or the fall whether I like coffee or tea whether I like white or yellow, classical or jazz, shorts or pants, dresses or skirts, cars or motorcycles, walking or jogging... .

This is a deeply personal decision that arises out of the depths of our experience, memories, our very own SELF.

To thine own self be true... .