Do you paint people black?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Something interesting I thought today, I do tend to paint people black... .if it seems like they have severely wronged me.

In my experience, it has always been in a relationship scenario. If someone I see as a friend sees an ex in too soon of a time period, I just won't like them that much anymore. I am aware of this, and have learn't to tell myself that it has nothing to do with me, but the emotions are still there for a bit. I don't think it ever goes away though. When someone goes against my values in a perceived extreme way, they are never really cast in the same light.

What have all of your experiences been with projecting onto others like this?

[valet]

Something interesting I thought today, I do tend to paint people black... .if it seems like they have severely wronged me.

In my experience, it has always been in a relationship scenario. If someone I see as a friend sees an ex in too soon of a time period, I just won't like them that much anymore. I am aware of this, and have learn't to tell myself that it has nothing to do with me, but the emotions are still there for a bit. I don't think it ever goes away though. When someone goes against my values in a perceived extreme way, they are never really cast in the same light.

What have all of your experiences been with projecting onto others like this?

[Turkish]

I realize that I do my own form of splitting. Maybe not painting someone entirely black, but just abandoning what at the time seemed like close friendships. Some seemed to just end, and in some I may have acted like a Waif, retreating. I look back and I don't like that about myself. Though "the phone works both ways" there has been more to it than that. In a way, I may have done it in my r/s, which concerns me for any future r/s. I could rationalize it as having a BPD mother, but having left the dysfunctional next 26 years ago in two weeks, it seems like a lame excuse.

From where do you think these tendencies come?

[valet]

Truthfully, I'm not sure, but it has to stem from somewhere pretty close to my values on relationships. And it probably has a heck of a lot to do with my parents marriage and how it operated inside of itself.

[enlighten me]

I also paint people black. Its not a sudden thing but when they do enough wrong in my eyes then its hard for me to see anything they do as good. I worked with a guy that was very selfish. The nature of the work meant that we lived in each others pockets 24/7 for weeks at a time. His selfishness over time got to me so much that I couldn't stand to be in his company. Even if he tried to do something nice I couldn't shake it.

I think our core values cause this and we learn them from a very early age. They become the building blocks of who we are. As its a subconscious thing we don't really see it so never examine the validity of it.

I also think fear of rejection has a part to play. If we think we are going to be rejected by someone we paint them black so it softens the blow. Sound familiar?

[valet]

I agree that many people do this, but I'm starting to wonder to what effect?

A lot of the people that I have 'painted black' are people that I am still socially on good terms with. My mindset is to put the past behind me and my relationships, but learn from myself in the process. In softer terms, maybe this is what compatibility is. It might be more applicable to say 'we just don't get along', but also understand the reasons why.

Lately, I have really let my guard down as far as trying to 'understand everything' is concerned, and I feel much happier for it. I used to have the mindset, for a while after my pwBPD left, that I wouldn't get the next one wrong. I wouldn't make the same mistake twice. But how can you get anything wrong if you don't take a chance?

Right now I am living for the chance.

[blissful_camper]

I find myself not enjoying someone's company if, for instance, the conversations/actions directed at me are unpleasant/negative and the interaction leaves me feeling drained.  I can find a middle ground where I acknowledge the qualities I enjoy about the person, but I minimize time spent with them and keep the interaction light.

There are/have been situations where I've seen behavior over a period of time that is unacceptable to me and while I've sat back trying to find something, anything redeemable about that person, I've come up short.  I'm angry for a bit, and yes, that person is painted a rather dark shade.  Then it transforms to something else (indifference maybe) and I simply don't wish to have that person in my space.

I'm feeling less tolerant of unpleasant behavior directed at me, others, animals, the world-at-large. I just don't want that junk in my life anymore.

[Turkish]

I've heard it said that "we don't like certain traits in others because we also have those traits." IMNSHO, that's excrement.

I think EM touches on it with a violation of our personal values. There is probably a personal trigger here, too, valet. In childhood, I saw my mom end what looked to me to be clse friendships due to her painting people black. Sometimes valid; sometimes due to her BPD, or maybe both. We don't know what we don't know... .until we know it. You refer to your parents' marriage and what you had as a relationship example. How did this influence your value set?

[purekalm]

I have a hard time with this to be honest. I don't think I've ever really painted anyone black besides my parents. I hated them and wanted them to disappear, but at the same time I knew they were just messed up people who were struggling and it frustrated me really that I couldn't hate them like I wanted to.

It's the same with other people. I guess I'm just more optimistic, or flawed in my thinking? Whenever someone is a jerk I instantly assume the best instead of the worst, especially with strangers, because you just never know whereas everyone else I know instantly assumes the worst.

With my FOO I think is where I probably got messed up, Because I was the one trying to save and take care of everyone I could never truly see them as all bad because I got to experience and see their good points too.

Don't get me wrong, they tick me off royal all the time. But, I just can't paint them completely black. 

But, I have to say I almost forgot I paint myself black all the time. I'm never good enough, I suck, I hate myself, I'll never be able to do this or that... .Even though I know deep down I'm not as horrible as I paint myself, it's easier to rail on myself than anyone else... .

[eeks]

From where do you think these tendencies come?

At first I was thinking it could be complex and come from a number of factors.  Then I thought of my own situation, with friendships I've just let drift away, it wasn't "painting them black" necessarily but just stopping talking to them, it's not common but whenever that's happened I think I was afraid of finding out I had an irreparable flaw.  Not about this individual person and how they are saying my behaviour affects them... .but of discovering some quality I have that makes me... .unfriendable.

So, maybe the common factor is issues around boundaries (assertively and compassionately communicating, including when your feelings are hurt or they've done something that offends your values) and if the friendship needs to end, doing it knowing you did your best as opposed to avoiding things.  Is there maybe a conflict avoidance theme in here too - difficulty maintaining intimacy and connection with another throughout conflict?  Also maybe having beliefs/assumptions you don't realize are operating in the background like "I never get my needs met in this type of situation, so why bother?"  "there's just something wrong with me, and everybody will figure it out eventually" "If I tell people their actions hurt me, they're not going to listen to me anyway"  etc.

Valet and EM seem to be describing boundary decisions though, that they will not be as close to/trusting of someone because there is not an alignment of values, which could be a healthy thing provided it is communicated well, so it depends i guess.

I could rationalize it as having a BPD mother, but having left the dysfunctional next 26 years ago in two weeks, it seems like a lame excuse.

If you really were saying "I do this because of my mother," full stop, then that's making an excuse.  However, if you say "I do this because of my mother's behaviour... .and in my "waif" behaviour, was I trying to just 'fade out' so that I would not reach for her love and attention and be disappointed yet again?  What needs of mine was I trying to meet in that situation?"  and then ask yourself whether you can move straight to finding a healthy behaviour strategy that meets those needs now... .or if you need to grieve the past first... .or unearth hidden self-blame and shame that stalls the process... .I don't think that's excuse-making, that's healing work.  

[valet]

I like that you bring up boundaries, eeks. Although I am tentative. What about this makes it a boundary issue, and not something that requires more personal attention and awareness?

Is this a trust issue, and who is it with?

And also, as a major aside, we have to admit our tendencies when push comes to shove. When is it realistic to start looking at ways to change these things, when we don't even know if they affect us in ways that impinge upon our ability to be happy?

[enlighten me]

What is a boundary? Is it a value that you put in place?

You can have a boundary for instance that you do not want to be sworn at. The underlying value here is that you don't like swearing.

Another boundary could be physical abuse and your value is that you believe it is wrong.

I think the difference with it being a boundary issue is you can paint someone black who hasn't over stepped your boundaries but has gone against your values.

Someone in the street swearing isn't swearing at you so there is no boundary infringement but it goes against your values.

Someone on he telly can say or do something and you can dislike them from the start. They haven't crossed your boundary as you have never met them and they have not done anything to you.

I hope that makes sense.

[Mr Hollande]

Being friends with someone means letting them in my personal and private space. There is a trust there and if that trust is broken I remove them quickly and without discussion.

There was a time I decided to open up and let more people in. It was fun for a while but it soon appeared I had allowed several people into my personal space who didn't appreciate or respect it. It was sad to realise I had been right all along that most people really shouldn't be trusted. But it would have been even sadder if I'd carried on with those people around me so out they went and I was better off for it.

It sounds cold but friendship is a contract. That contract becomes null and void when the trust clause is broken. Same goes for relationships. I've been strict on the contract principles of friendships but I've been very sloppy when it comes to relationships.

I've painted a few people black. Once they are black they tend to stay black. My first BPD ex is deep black and nothing will change that. I see no redeeming features in her at all. My last BPD ex is also painted black but I have a better understanding of her than the first one. While she does have redeeming features she's still black and I doubt that'll change. I rarely forgive.

An ex band member who acted extremely entitled and caused a lot of harm to the band in the early days I removed in the most brusque manner. It took me 20 years to forgive him but that was after meeting him and understanding that he had matured and changed his ways. He was genuinely sorry for what he'd done to me and so many others. He told me some sad stories about his life and how many good people and opportunities he'd wasted. He said I'd been the first one to bring him down with a deserved bump but I had not been the last. After enough bumps he'd reconsidered his outlook and started changing his ways. His music career never took off but he has a family, a loyal wife (I get the impressions she's done much to kick him into touch) and a good job. The person who approached me 20 years later is not the backstabbing user he was back then. It took character to do what he did and I have huge respect for that. To not forgive someone who genuinely regrets his actions and has the guts to admit it would not be right. Today I value his friendship very much.

[fromheeltoheal]

When I've had a falling-out with someone, which has happened plenty for different reasons, I tend to "paint them black", and my experience is we all do.  But what is painting black?  Not a very descriptive term to me, but what we do when we 'paint someone black' is focus on their negative qualities and minimize their positive ones, to justify hating them, not liking them, removing them from our lives, whatever.  Of course everyone is a mix of traits we like and traits we don't, and we tend to 'paint white' folks we like and want in our lives, we focus on their good qualities and ignore or minimize the bad ones, at least according to us, so we accept them 'as they are', through our lens.  And then there's the projection piece; assign traits we see in ourselves and don't like to someone we've 'painted black', so we get rid of them and they take them with them when they leave.  Projection is handy that way.

So healthy?  Seeing someone for who they are, good and bad, warts and all, and then deciding if we want them in our lives or not is probably the healthiest way, I've done that, and I've done the 'painting' thing too; whatever helps us make sense of the world and get up in the morning, which is the point of all of it.  Projection, not so healthy, although being aware of projection and of ourselves when we're doing it at least gives us a choice; we can continue to project, delude ourselves and steep ourselves in denial, or we can own up to the projection and either accept ourselves with that perceived deficit or change it.  Projection can be just a warning flag to dig a little and see what's up, if we're self-aware enough and willing.

[blissful_camper]

How can one get to a place where we no longer go there to paint anyone any shade? We may continue to dislike, for instance, an offensive action, but could inner states such as happiness and self worth help buffer our experience so that we don't go into a paint-another zone?  Is it realistic to, say, just determine that we don't want someone in our space ( or conversely want in our space ) without the gyrations of painting in any direction? (Not even middle grey.)

I recently experienced bullying. I really had a hard time with it on many levels because I found myself disliking that person to a point where I painted them pretty black. While the bully's actions were deplorable, I felt I was adding more negativity to my experience by assigning them a shade.

If one's self worth, self esteem, is solid then it seems to me that there wouldn't be a need to paint at all. Or?

[enlighten me]

Hi blissfull

Im not sure if it is possible or actually healthy not to. This may sound strange. I think it is a subconscious thing that we do to protect ourselves. Its a bit like a danger sign on a cave entrance. We don't know whats inside but we know we can get hurt if we ignore it. Not everyone displaying behaviour that goes against us would hurt us but we don't want to take the risk.

My son was recently bullied. Nothing major just some name calling that left him feeling uncomfortable. It turns out this kid was having a rough time at home. Not an excuse for his behaviour but does make you realise theres more to it than them just enjoying doing it.

Still the next bully might just get a kick out of doing it so do we take that risk?

[eeks]

I like that you bring up boundaries, eeks. Although I am tentative. What about this makes it a boundary issue, and not something that requires more personal attention and awareness?

I was looking at it as a spectrum (from painting someone black for reasons based in lack of self- and emotional awareness... .to awareness of self and emotions and values, and making a decision to end or alter a relationship based on that).  

I had a personal situation in my mind, that I alluded to but did not share all the details.  I had a friend who, about a year and a half ago I expressed disappointment to her with regards to what I thought was an insensitive, "pat answer" response to me telling her I felt depressed.  (she said "hang in there, you'll overcome it!" I admit that I made assumptions and had expectations - I thought that as someone with longstanding mood disorder issues herself, she should know the impact of insensitive advice and not do to others what's unhelpful for her. I also expected more from a friend of 3 years.  And that, although I engaged in lengthy supportive talks with her and it was honestly with no expectation of the same in return (I felt I learned about myself while doing it, which was true), when what she did was so... .opposite... .I couldn't accept it.  Also, my communication could have been better (I sent her a text message saying "One of the reasons you like talking to me is because I don't give pat answers or superficial advice.  What you said to me was worse than a sidebar article in those free women's wellness magazines from the drugstore." but in any case she became very defensive, including saying that a text message was not the appropriate way to communicate this... .then when we met in person, proceeding to give the same list of reasons why what I was expecting from her was unreasonable.  I just stopped talking to her, didn't respond to her texts asking if I was going to such-and-such street festival, or blah blah art exhibit, or was I cozy at home on this cold day watching such and such tv show.  

I originally thought when I read yours and enlighten me's examples, that both of your examples sounded like they were at a point on the continuum closer to a healthy boundary decision than mine was.  I'm willing to consider that that's not accurate, or at least not the whole story.  I would also agree that you could benefit from applying "personal attention and awareness" to just about any such interpersonal interaction, regardless of whether what you did was in fact "healthy boundary setting".  

After all, how do you know for sure when someone does something, and you notice their actions aren't in line with your values, whether they truly haven't met your needs and/or done something that diminished the connection between the two of you, or... .they triggered a trauma (or any situation in the past that remains emotionally unresolved) of yours and the emotions that came up were, unbeknownst to you at the time, actually associated mostly with the trauma/situation and not very much at all with this current person's actions?

It may indeed be valuable (even if it is a so-called healthy boundary decision, hah!) to observe what specific behaviours on the part of another person trigger you to "paint them black".  How you feel when you see or hear of them doing what they're doing.  I can say more about that, I'd like to reply to your other questions as well, but it's way past my bedtime.   

[enlighten me]

eeks I agree that we can paint people black or take a dislike to someone because they are an emotional trigger. My work colleague became more of an emotional trigger because of how his behaviour reminded me of my exgf. That said I painted him black before splitting with my exgf as his selfishness was more than I cared for. Being kept awake half the night with him playing video games. Turning the lights on in the sleeping area when people are asleep just because he cant find something. Helping himself to other peoples food just because he's hungry and cant be bothered to get his own. After a while it all adds up.

[myself]

For many of us, there are self-esteem issues tied up with all of this.

As if we're painting/seeing ourselves as 'good' or 'bad' (and 'grey'.

Trying to live up to our own standards. And holding others to them, too.

[valet]

I like that you bring up boundaries, eeks. Although I am tentative. What about this makes it a boundary issue, and not something that requires more personal attention and awareness?

I was looking at it as a spectrum (from painting someone black for reasons based in lack of self- and emotional awareness... .to awareness of self and emotions and values, and making a decision to end or alter a relationship based on that).  

I had a personal situation in my mind, that I alluded to but did not share all the details.  I had a friend who, about a year and a half ago I expressed disappointment to her with regards to what I thought was an insensitive, "pat answer" response to me telling her I felt depressed.  (she said "hang in there, you'll overcome it!" I admit that I made assumptions and had expectations - I thought that as someone with longstanding mood disorder issues herself, she should know the impact of insensitive advice and not do to others what's unhelpful for her. I also expected more from a friend of 3 years.  And that, although I engaged in lengthy supportive talks with her and it was honestly with no expectation of the same in return (I felt I learned about myself while doing it, which was true), when what she did was so... .opposite... .I couldn't accept it.  Also, my communication could have been better (I sent her a text message saying "One of the reasons you like talking to me is because I don't give pat answers or superficial advice.  What you said to me was worse than a sidebar article in those free women's wellness magazines from the drugstore." but in any case she became very defensive, including saying that a text message was not the appropriate way to communicate this... .then when we met in person, proceeding to give the same list of reasons why what I was expecting from her was unreasonable.  I just stopped talking to her, didn't respond to her texts asking if I was going to such-and-such street festival, or blah blah art exhibit, or was I cozy at home on this cold day watching such and such tv show.  

I originally thought when I read yours and enlighten me's examples, that both of your examples sounded like they were at a point on the continuum closer to a healthy boundary decision than mine was.  I'm willing to consider that that's not accurate, or at least not the whole story.  I would also agree that you could benefit from applying "personal attention and awareness" to just about any such interpersonal interaction, regardless of whether what you did was in fact "healthy boundary setting".  

After all, how do you know for sure when someone does something, and you notice their actions aren't in line with your values, whether they truly haven't met your needs and/or done something that diminished the connection between the two of you, or... .they triggered a trauma (or any situation in the past that remains emotionally unresolved) of yours and the emotions that came up were, unbeknownst to you at the time, actually associated mostly with the trauma/situation and not very much at all with this current person's actions?

It may indeed be valuable (even if it is a so-called healthy boundary decision, hah!) to observe what specific behaviours on the part of another person trigger you to "paint them black".  How you feel when you see or hear of them doing what they're doing.  I can say more about that, I'd like to reply to your other questions as well, but it's way past my bedtime.  

I don't mean to get too semantic or argumentative here... .I just want to point out how strong this urge is even when we think we are aware of it. The first statement is very black and white. We have the 'from' to the to 'to'. I know this is how the idea of the continuum is perceived (from/to, or from = to). I'm just curious of our true awareness of these ways of thinking. I think that it might be a good way to think about these things and that it might help my overall perspective on decisions.

I think that we agree. 

[Beach_Babe]

I paint myself black.  I paint other people black in terms of their judgments about me. If I upset someone,  example, my next thought is ""they hate me, I suck." From that point on I probably overdo it trying to prove I don't. Its like I can't stand to displease anyone.

So the big question, then: what is the difference between when we do it and they do? Are we demonizing our cluster Bs when in all honesty we ourselves have some of the same tendencies?

[enlighten me]

I paint myself black.  I paint other people black in terms of their judgments about me. If I upset someone,  example, my next thought is ""they hate me, I suck." From that point on I probably overdo it trying to prove I don't. Its like I can't stand to displease anyone.

So the big question, then: what is the difference between when we do it and they do? Are we demonizing our cluster Bs when in all honesty we ourselves have some of the same tendencies?

A lot of the behaviour our BPDs demonstrate is normal human behaviour. What we have to consider is how much is driven by the disorder.

If we agree that everyone paints people black cluster B or Non then what is different?

If we agree that post break up everyone feels uncomfortable around their ex and avoids them then what is the difference there?

If we agree that everyone puts a brave face on post break up then is there any difference?

So as you asked what does makes a BPDs behaviour different to what everyone else does?

[Beach_Babe]

Good question EM, i'm imaginng degree?

I am sure most of us here don't think of our BPD as satan. We all some point, however, had less than positive feelings.

[enlighten me]

I agree its more the intensity that separates it. Then again Im not BPD and I can do the same probably down to insecurity.

I think that realising this has helped me. I can see that like my exs I can swing too far the wrong way due to my own issues.