Healing separation without monogamy?

[TooRational]

Hello,

I need you guys advice on how to handle the tough spot we're in. Basically the chance of saving our relationship is between 1-5% according to my W. She's still willing to give a healing separation a try but I made it clear that she can't still cheat on me while we try this separation, otherwise let's call it a separation, plain and simple.

She genuinely wants to try but the problem is that my wife is currently depressed and she says that she really needs the attention from another man to feel good. It prevents her from going crazy. She goes as far as saying that if she couldn't to this, she might hurt herself. She told me today that she was tempted by the knife in the kitchen. So she's obviously struggling with strong emotions.

So my question is, how can she manage to refrain from seeing other guys while at the same time somehow finding another way to fulfill her desire for other men (who provide her with lots of attention and boost her self esteem). She actually asked me to try to find a way and I'm at a loss, hence why I'm here. It's a little bit like if a drug addict asked me how he can we refrain from getting his fix without going crazy. I wouldn't know what to say.

She's seeing her T on Thuesday so maybe she'll give her some tips.

I'm giving it one last chance but I'm not getting my hopes up. At this point, she's very clear to me that she doesn't love me anymore and that it's not sudden, it's been a slow process. She feels better when I'm away... .It's very hard to bear that you're the source of someone's depression, to the point where she wants to hurt herself.

[Samuel S.]

TooRational, first and foremost, if and when she tries to follow through to hurt herself, it is imperative to call for the police. Her physical well-being needs to be maintained. Secondly, from what you have described, she is very confused. She wants to see other men due to her unending need to be looked upon highly. This is being very selfish and not honoring you whatsoever. Thus, she wants to "have her cake and eat it too". She wants your stability by providing a home and a solid relationship while she is flirting with other guys. If she wants or insists on getting the attention of other men, then, she needs to be a single woman and not married. Luckily, she does have a T, and, luckily, she realizes that she has many things to work on. Otherwise, she would not be seeing a T.

In the meantime, do you see a T? When dealing with the chaos that she has presented you, having a trained professional is extremely important in order to delve into your own emotions and how to poosibly resolve your chaotic situation.

The best of luck to you, my friend! 

[Notwendy]

The question for you isn't about how she manages her desires. To say she has to have a man or she will self harm- that is her own personal situation and decision.

The question for you- the only thing you can determine and control- is your reaction to it. The situation, as it seems- is that you decide that being with her- as she is- is better than being without her. You take the marriage as it is, and as she is, and live with the infidelity. Or you decide that you are not able to be in this relationship.

She isn't giving you another choice. If she believes that for whatever reason, she needs to have sex outside the marriage, and she chooses to do this, then you have no control over this choice.

[TooRational]

Yes, you're right, I have no control over this. In any case, we're starting this half-baked trial separation this week. I'll be at my parents Mo-Tu, diner with her inlaws Wednesday, she'll be with a friend Th-Fr and we'll spend the weekend together. I'm just wondering whether we should set ground rules and expectations about extramarital behaviors during this separation or not.

One part of me feels that I should just give up any hope and just let her go and do whatever she needs to do. That's my rational brain talking.

Another part of me can't just let go of that tiny glimpse of hope that she's giving me. She says that she does want to do the right thing and is even willing to try to put a hold on seeing other guys. She just needs help on how to go about it because she doesn't know how to fill that strong need any other way.

Ideally I would make up my mind tonight because she'll see her psychologist tomorrow morning. I'll take the day to think about it... .

[TooRational]

Samuel, sorry I overlooked your post, thanks for taking the time. Yes, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. That's exactly how I feel. I'm not okay with that.

She told me yesterday that in her mind, this relationship is over and hence she's entitled to see other guys. She doesn't think that she's doing anything wrong. The thing is, she keeps flip flopping about her desire to stay and give this relationship a chance for the kids. She's giving me very mixed signals.

Yes, I'm seeing a T, but she hasn't really been helpful (4 sessions so far). In fact she did give me one terrible advice recently about the cordless phone incident that I posted about previously. This resulted in one of the worse outbursts of my wife. I'm losing faith in this T but I invested lots of time already telling my story and I don't really feel like starting all over again with another one, at least for now.

What has been the most helpful is this board and talking with some good friends. I'm handling this surprisingly well overall but I have problems letting her go. So far keeping a little hope in this relationship has been more damaging than it has been helpful... .

[OnceConfused]

What do you and she mean by HEALING SEPARATION?

I can understand the time being away so both people can stay objectively about the r.s without the strong emotion of being together 24/7. But I cannot understand the rationale of being separated and her continued to see other men. To me, that means she is no longer serious about YOUR r.s. because the other men are filling her time and the void.  You are no longer on her radar, or simply a small blip. Then how can you and she both work on your r.s?

If in her mind, she has already made up the conclusion that your r.s. w her is OVER, and is seeking other r.s. then why she wants to stay around and wastes both your time ?

YOur w sounds like my XBPDgf, who told me that she was not unfaithful as long as there was NO EXCHANGE OF BODILY FLUID. When she slept with me, she continued talk and text with her old xbfs and appeared AVAILABLE to new men. The 2nd day after I went to europe for 2 weeks, she already had this man over her house for a date - whom she had met only 2 weeks prior to my vacation.

If your presence causes her to feel depressed or triggered, then you might want to give it a chance by writing her. By putting your thoughts on paper instead of talking face to face, you can avoid the emotional trigger if one of you misspeak.

If she is unhappy with you, then ask her , if she is sincere about staying together, that what behaviors of yours that made her unhappy. Sometime it is the little thing that upset people in the long term.

Having that list from her, you can see how you can change or you cannot change at all. Now you have something concrete to work with.

If she refuses, then you have to make some hard decisions because it is impossible to deal or make someone happy with  a moving goal post.  Eventually, no matter how hard you try , the divorce is inevitable. So, in this case, why waste more time, why not now so that both can be free.

[TooRational]

I just read an interesting article about healing/controlled separation:

www.thrivingcouples.com/2010/05/06/when-one-spouse-wants-a-separation/

There's a special note at the end that really hit home for me:

There is one situation where I DO NOT recommend a separation. This is where one party is actively having an affair. We’re begging for trouble then. The separation just presents the affairee with more time to engage with the affair. If your spouse leaves you to move in with someone else, this is NOT a separation to work things out. You’ll need a lawyer more than you’ll need me if that is the case.

I don't see how making her promise to refrain from seeing other guys is gonna help anything. I think she's only suggesting that she would be willing to make an effort to please me. To her credit, she wants to make this transition as smooth as possible.

Let me quote another article about anhedonia that is one of the main source of my small hope:

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/when-a-depressed-partner-falls-out-of-love/

Depressed partners may refuse to face the inner pain that’s wrecking their lives. Rather than seek treatment, they come to believe that it’s the existing relationship that is ruining them. Their answer is often to leave and find happiness elsewhere.

... .

But there is another dimension of depression that can lead to the idea of escape as the answer.

It’s the one that causes depressed partners to say they’re no longer in love and have never loved their partners.

It’s called anhedonia, the inability to feel pleasure or interest in anything.

... .

For me, it was a kind of deadness. Rather than an excess of painful emotion, it was the lack of pain, the lack of feeling, that was the undercurrent of all the surface turmoil.

I believed that the relationship was holding me back. It had become hollow, empty of the intensity I longed for.

I could only find happiness and passion with someone else. It was the fantasy of the perfectly passionate mate that was a constant lure.

... .

The problem is that the unaware depressive has such a high threshold of feeling that it takes extreme arousal to evoke excitement and passion. He can erupt with anger and rage because these are more violent emotions that stir him as little else does.

[CrazyChuck]

She told me yesterday that in her mind, this relationship is over and hence she's entitled to see other guys. She doesn't think that she's doing anything wrong. The thing is, she keeps flip flopping about her desire to stay and give this relationship a chance for the kids. She's giving me very mixed signals.

My uBPDw was looking for a replacement for her bad marriage when we met. She said she was afraid it would go on forever. She didn't want to jump off and swim on her own. She wanted the next log lined up to jump too.   

[sweetheart]

The question for you isn't about how she manages her desires. To say she has to have a man or she will self harm- that is her own personal situation and decision.

The question for you- the only thing you can determine and control- is your reaction to it. The situation, as it seems- is that you decide that being with her- as she is- is better than being without her. You take the marriage as it is, and as she is, and live with the infidelity. Or you decide that you are not able to be in this relationship.

She isn't giving you another choice. If she believes that for whatever reason, she needs to have sex outside the marriage, and she chooses to do this, then you have no control over this choice.

Hi TooRational for me NotWendy encompasses your dilemma perfectly.

I'm unclear about the trial separation, what's that really about? What do you hope it will achieve, infidelities aside? How do you think it might save your relationship?

Here is a link from this forum about Therapeutic Separation I hope you find it of some help https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

[TooRational]

I'm unclear about the trial separation, what's that really about? What do you hope it will achieve, infidelities aside? How do you think it might save your relationship?

I'm not sure. I guess that's the last hope I got. I'm hoping that what I'm reading about therapeutic healing working for some people (50% from the article I posted above, although that seems high) will somehow work for us.

But the infidelity is a deal breaker. I actually wrote an e-mail to my wife titled "you're free" where I explain that it's best that we just do a plain separation, without an commitments or promises we can't keep. I haven't sent it yet. It's hard to accept that this is all over  :'(

[sweetheart]

If infidelity really is your deal breaker, it will be important that you are able to uphold this as your boundary.

If you don't or can't uphold this as your boundary at the moment then think seriously about sending your email. Perhaps take some emotional 'time-out', talk to your T, lay your options out and see how it feels.

There is no rush now. The Therapeutic Separation idea sounds messy, generally speaking this option carries clear boundaries for you both to uphold. It doesn't sound like this will be possible for your w at the moment, so TS won't work. Have a read of the link I posted.

So what are your options, can you explore them here? How can you best protect yourself and your family from the difficulties you are facing at the moment?

[HopefulDad]

Hello,

I need you guys advice on how to handle the tough spot we're in. Basically the chance of saving our relationship is between 1-5% according to my W. She's still willing to give a healing separation a try but I made it clear that she can't still cheat on me while we try this separation, otherwise let's call it a separation, plain and simple.

I went the healing separation route.  Very helpful in helping clear my mind.  I recommend it to all couples who aren't ready to throw in the towel, but can't remain in a toxic environment.

If it's going to work, it can *only* work if you both agree to stay celibate while apart.  Otherwise, it's just a regular separation as you noted.

[TooRational]

So what are your options, can you explore them here? How can you best protect yourself and your family from the difficulties you are facing at the moment?

The options seem fairly limited. Therapeutic separation is probably out. That basically only leaves plain separation. We already agreed that we will separate gradually. This week I'm with my parents for two nights and she'll be at a friend's for two nights. Next week it's probably going to be me away for 3 nights and her away for 2 nights. We are going to sell the house in the spring. Meanwhile we'll prepare the house for sale (small renovations, paint, etc). Until at least the sale of the house, we want to limit the impact on the kids so the kids will always stay at home. When we both get a new place to live, then I guess it will be the kids moving between the two places. Poor kids.

In the grand scheme of things, whether the separation is called therapeutic or not is a fairly small detail. We'll separate regardless. It's only about whether or not we keep any hope in rebuilding this r/s. I've been burned again and again for the past ~6 weeks about false hopes. The decision is really either about pulling the plug for good or keeping hope alive and risking to be hurt again.

I can't forget the kids either. Ideally I would make the decision that is most beneficial for them. It looks like a lose-lose choice for them at this point anyhow so it's not really tilting the balance in any direction. Well, I guess that in my wildest dreams we would eventually come back together and it would be better for the kids (so I guess +1 for therapeutic separation) but that's not very realistic at this point.

Any comments on my anhedonia quote above?

[OnceConfused]

I am sure it will be difficult for everyone involved, you, your wife, and especially your children. That is OK because life cannot be always happy.

WHen my wife died, I got some comfort in this saying from a zen monk, thich nhat hanh:

Life and death are the 2 sides of a coin. Without death, life does not exist.


It is not your fault, her fault or the children's. It is just the way life is. We cannot change the circumstances but we can make the best of whatever occurs.

Stay strong and know that you are not alone.

[TooRational]

Thanks for the positive words. Interesting that you're bringing up a zen monk. I've started gaining an interest in Buddhism (only reading at this point) and I see it as a healthier option than co-dependency to channel my altruistic personality. I need to learn how to help others without being attached or dependent on the results.

This short article is pretty good about altruism vs co-dependency in the context of Buddhism:

www.fpmt.org/mandala/archives/mandala-issues-for-2006/august/altruism-versus-co-dependency/

[TooRational]

Ok, a little update. I did send my email last night. I let her go. I think it's only fair that I share it here, given all the help I received. Here's the first and most important part of it:

This is the hardest thing I've ever done but it needs to be done.

So I thought long and hard about our conversation last night. Even though this is very hard to admit to myself, the best decision is to let you go. No commitments, no promises that we can't keep, no "healing" separation. Just plain separation. It can still be gradual, we don't have to make it harder than it needs to be for our friends and the kids (I'm talking living arrangements). I do realize that you want to make this transition as smooth as possible in the circumstances and I thank you for that. Your heart is in the right place, it always has been. You heart is sadly not with me anymore but you're a good person inside. I wish that you'll find a solution to your struggles and find happiness somehow.

If your psychologist still wants to see us both to establish some ground rules, then I'm willing to see her. For example, rules about bringing new lovers in the life of our children would need to be discussed.

There's more to it but the rest is less relevant. I've cried the most last night since the beginning of this nightmare. :'(

[patientandclear]

These days, I feel OK or even good (sad but good) about where I stand vis a vis the pwBPD in my life, primarily when I am able to say things that start akin to "this is so hard but it needs be be done," and "I see that this means something different to me than it does to you." Just putting the difficult truth out there is some kind of integrity guarantee. I think pwBPD recognize and appreciate the integrity. It is not manipulative or trying to extract something they don't want go give.

I know it's super tough. When I've been in a similar spot of surfacing and accepting these truths, I felt like I was in literal physical shock for some time. The river of tears is good (as it seems like you know). I'm sorry it's so hard. But good for you for committing to a path of truth and acceptance.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey TooRational, I support your move to opt for a "plain, old" separation, although I understand that you struggled with this decision.  The "healing" separation, as you described it, seemed like it would have been stressful, as you would have been worrying about your W's celibacy, which is something out of your control.  Let the chips fall.  I think you're on the right path.

LuckyJim

[TooRational]

Thanks everyone for your support.

One of the hardest thing to accept (apart from the impact on the kids, this will always be #1) is my failure as a lover and intimate partner. I'm way too rational and I am not very emotional or romantic. I always struggled to do the romantic things that girls expect and that are required to keep the intimacy going (surprise her, joking around, compliments on her appearance, making her feel sexually desired, love letters, flirt, etc).

Even before we had kids, the intimacy was not very present. We had been together for 10 years at that point (1997-2008) and we got along very well, we were best friends. But were we lovers anymore? I'm not even sure. In any case, our r/s was clearly not strong enough to endure the added stress of kids. I wish I could have realized it at the time. I did realize it but I was in denial. Don't get me wrong, I don't regret my kids in the least, they are the best things that happened in my life by far. But still, we made a mistake in overestimating our r/s strength and the kids must pay for it now.

One last thing, since I'm baring it all... .I admit that part of the reason of my initial attraction to my wife was the mere fact that she was attracted to me. I always struggled with girls and was never very popular. I only had one girlfriend in HS prior to this r/s. So I really enjoyed the fact that this girl was accepting me for who I was and was actually attracted to me. Of course there was more than that but I'm sure it played a big role.

On the other end, from her perspective, I'm pretty sure that one of the reason that she was attracted to me was because I'm a good listener and was giving her the attention and validation she was craving for and never got from her parents.

So there you have it, typical "victim" and "rescuer" roles of the drama triangle. Looking back I think that was a big part in the genesis of our relationship. It hurts to think that this is true, because it means that the only way I can be attractive to other girls is to play the co-dependent/rescuer role.

In any case, I'm not looking for a new r/s anytime soon but all of the above hurts a lot from a self-esteem stand point.

[OnceConfused]

the only way I can be attractive to other girls is to play the co-dependent/rescuer role

You don't have to play the old game because that would lead to the same results. You need to take stocks of what happened and see how you can change for the better.

A great book about the model of sustaining a loving relationship is ,THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES by Dr. Gary Chapman. I read that after my wife's death and learned of why we had fought many times. I apply that to my marriage now and we hardly fight for the past 9 years.

To sustain the emotional love in a r.s we  have to understand the love languages of our partner and apply them even though our love language might differ. For example, in your case, inititally the love language of your wife was quality time and affirmation where you used them in the initial stage but then you perhaps failed in continuing to apply those languages. I dont think that are the rescuer/co dependent issues. They simply are the difference in our love languages.

Your partner will have to understand your love languages and feed them to you. Otherwise, the r.s. will die without the right love fuel.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey TR, I disagree; you are not a "failure" because your marriage didn't work out, and you need not take on sole responsibility for the breakdown in your marriage.  It takes two to tango, of course.  I'm speaking from experience, because I shouldered the blame for our divorce and it led to a long depression.  Suggest you try not to second guess yourself and try not to project about how the separation will play out; instead, Suggest you pay attention to your gut feelings and focus on the present moment.

LuckyJim

[HopefulDad]

Hey Too,

You're going to be okay.  So will your kids... .because they have you.  Your combination of rational thinking, willingness to look within and admit faults and general humility will serve you and them well moving forward.  While you may not see it now, hindsight will probably show this was a good decision for you and your kids.

You need time to heal and regroup.  You also need the environment to do so.  Recognize how much contact with your BPDw is healthy for *you* and adjust accordingly.  You cannot heal if you are in a toxic environment.  And often the initial stages of separation are highly toxic.

As you regroup, you will think about your self-esteem with regards to women.  While you may be certain that you "settled" for your BPDw because she was attracted to you, that doesn't mean that's your destiny in finding love moving forward.  There is no timetable in finding another long-term relationship.  Start doing things to rebuild your self-esteem.  Have some beers with friends.  Go spend time doing a hobby you perhaps sacrificed because your BPDw guilted you into quitting because it took away from "quality time" with her and the kids.  Start exercising... .slowly at first, then as your stamina builds, increase the load.  Learn how to cook a few dishes you want to be your signature meals for the kids and for friends.  Travel, even if it's just regional weekend getaways.  Do things that make you feel good about yourself.  That make you feel confident.  That confidence will shine through with your family, friends, coworkers... .and future first dates.  You can still be yourself... .minus the self-esteem issues.  And you will love it.

[TooRational]

Thanks guys for your great advice. I actually had lunch with a very good friend of mine today and he basically has the same advice. So I'll try not to take the sole responsibility for this. I guess my rational brain is going to be helpful for that, as you're saying.

Fortunately my current r/s is going pretty well and not too toxic (actually, my ex is in a very good mood since my last e-mail, while I'm at the bottom of the barrel), so I think that it's going to be a good idea to still spend weekends together with the kids. That might not last however, as when my ex gets a steady boyfriend, I'm sure that she will want to spend weekends with him (and our kids) rather than me and the kids.

I'm trying to take this as an opportunity to grow and reconnect with my interests, friends and hobbies. That's the medium term plan anyway. At the moment, I'm trying to focus on friends. Keep current relationships alive and try to revive old ones that I neglected.

I'm probably in the Guilt phase of the 7 phases of divorce. According to the theory, the next phase is depression... .I'll try to avoid that stage or make it as quick as can be. Not looking forward to that.

[Notwendy]

While it is understandable to be concerned for the kids, consider also that you are their role model. Children pick up on what we do ( perhaps even more than) what we say. We are their role models for the relationships they have in the future.

Many of us here have parents who have dysfunctional relationships. While I don't think it is useful to blame them for our situations ( we are responsible for our choices) it can help us understand ours if we consider what we grew up with assuming was "normal" so we can adopt emotionally healthier ways of relating to people.

Kids can spot hypocrisy. If we teach them to be honest and ethical while being dishonest or unethical ourselves, we basically teach them that we don't need to follow a set of values. If infidelity is a deal breaker for you, this may sadden and upset the kids in the moment, but as they get older, they will come to understand that this is a value for you. If it's distressing for you, but you tolerate it, they may learn to tolerate their values being ignored in a relationship as well.

It is hard on kids to dissolve a marriage and this is not something to be decided on quickly, but there is also harm in setting an example of not honoring your  boundaries as well. Sadly, we are not always perfect parents for kids, but hopefully the good we do as parents will prevail.

[TooRational]

Notwendy, yes, you're absolutely right. Kids imitate our actions, that's how they learn, so we must be a good role model. I'm striving to be just that.

However, I'm not going to disclose my wife's infidelity to our children (I don't think that's what you were implying anyway), they are way too young for that. Even if they were older, I'm not even sure if I would tell them. Everything I read seems to indicate that I shouldn't be bad mouthing the other partner. In any case, her infidelity is not the trigger for the separation. The trigger is quite simple: she simply doesn't love me anymore and wants her freedom back. But I understand that you probably meant that kids would pick up on our unhealthy and toxic relationship if we decided to stay despite her infidelity, and I agree.

So my message to the kids is quite simple: mommy and daddy are going to live separately because they don't love each other anymore and they are more happy when they are not together. However, all moms and dads always love their children forever and we will always love you forever. This separation is not your fault and you did nothing wrong.

[Notwendy]

I agree not to disclose it, at least not now, and maybe not ever.

But you'd be surprised how much they pick up. They don't understand it, but if it were to continue, they may catch on to it.

When my marriage was in a difficult place, I didn't think the kids knew, but they did. I found notes in their drawers saying things like "mom and dad are fighting again". They may not have known all of it ( there was not infidelity) but they knew way more than I thought they did.

You don't ( and should not ) badmouth your wife, but your kids will see how both of you behave and come to their own conclusions.

[TooRational]

Yep, I can relate. Our D7 definitely knew that our relationship wasn't going well. She asked me previously why we were not kissing on the mouth to greet each other, but her grandparents do that. She's also told my parents that sometimes she wished we were separated, like one of her friend's parents at school. Not sure what to make of that though, she might have been only attracted to the positive aspects of a separation (i.e. twice as many gifts for b-day).

In any case, she obviously knew something wasn't right. She's very smart. She knows her mom is not happy right now. Well, granted, her BPD-like tantrums are a pretty obvious giveaway that her mom is struggling with something. I can't get her words out of my head that she keeps repeating: "Mommy is always mean with us. Everyday she does something mean to us." Poor kid. She doesn't deserve to be treated that way, no kid does.

[OnceConfused]

You are right. we should not pull the kids into the middle of a divorce. Many times , the children think of themselves as being the cause of the divorce and blame themselves implicitly. We have to treat the children with love and care, with the exception now the kids can only be with 1 parent. 

[HopefulDad]

I told my young children the following (paraphrasing):

"Mommy and I are getting divorced.  We don't treat each other well as you've seen with all of the yelling.  We've tried to get help and make things better, but it didn't work."

"You go to school to learn reading, writing, math, science, etc., but there is no teacher in school who teaches you about how to be a good spouse.  So you learn that from us, by watching us.  And we're being lousy teachers at it.  Neither of us want you to grow up thinking that this is the way spouses treat each other.  Hopefully, by being apart we can finally start doing a better job at showing you the right way to treat the people you love.  Then someday when you meet someone you want to marry, you will know the right way a marriage should be."

[TooRational]

Very good, I like it.