Is my relationship healthy?

[unicorn2014]

Yes you have correctly identified the problem. My person wBPD is filling in the gaps where my child's father is falling short. We are interdependent, not codependent. There are gaps that need to be filled in. Would you rather have those gaps stay unfilled so I can remain independent?

If you want to have a healthy relationship with your fiance or anyone else, you need to learn to fill the gaps yourself, or fill them by relying on someone who is actually reliable. You can't make meaningful choices about a relationship or enforce boundaries when you're relying on the other person in this way. What if you concluded your relationship was unhealthy? You wouldn't be able to leave. If he never gets a divorce, what are you going to do?

this again, that's just it, I'm not relying on him. I have really misrepresented myself on this board and I don't know how to undo that. I was doing fine without him. He is helping me. I will do fine without him. However he is helping me, so why would I want to give up that help? He has proved himself reliable in most things except for the fact of the divorce not being filed in the court system.

As I said I am sure most non think my relationship is unhealthy and I'm sure most recovering BPD think it is not unhealthy.

I can enforce boundaries with him. It is up to me to end the FaceTime call if I feel unsafe. It is up to me to ignore the text message if I feel triggered. I got a triggering text message from my child's father when I was in session with my social worker and my social worker told me to ignore it. I don't just have this problem with my partner. That is what I'm trying to show the board. I am the common denominator. I am having the same problem with both men. It is just more pronounced with my partner because I have more interaction with him, I ended my relationship with my child's father.

PS If I needed to leave, I would leave, I don't need to leave yet. I've told my partner there are certain things I would leave over, like the silent treatment.

PPS I think the bigger question is can I manage the level of anger and frustration my relationship causes me, which is something that was mentioned early. And right now the answer is I don't know, but I'm going to keep trying until I do know that I can't do it anymore.

[ct21218]

I'm a recovered BPD and I think your relationship is very unhealthy.  He is not a biological parent, he should not be parenting your child.  He is clearly lying about the divorce and you continue to believe his words and not his actions.  He verbally abused you.  This is all unhealthy.

[unicorn2014]

I'm a recovered BPD and I think your relationship is very unhealthy.  He is not a biological parent, he should not be parenting your child.  He is clearly lying about the divorce and you continue to believe his words and not his actions.  He verbally abused you.  This is all unhealthy.

That's a moral stand point. He is her stepfather. Do you expect my child to have no father? He is not clearly lying about the divorce. His actions are he went and met with a new lawyer, he called two friends asking for recommendations for divorce lawyers. Yes, he verbally abused me, that is the unhealthy part. However i responded to it instead of ignoring it. That is also the unhealthy part. What it is about me that makes me have to respond to verbal abuse? Why can't I just let it go? And far as I know recovery from anything is a process not a finished product. What steps did you take to recover from BPD and did you have an actual diagnosis of BPD?

[ct21218]

Yes, I was diagnosed 12 years ago and was inpatient for a short period  of time.  I was in therapy for 3 years and have been in a 12 step recovery program for 11 years.  I have a sponsor and go to 4-6 meetings a week.  I sponsor women.  I have lived with my boyfriend for a year.  I've had the same full time job for 5 years.  I no longer meet BPD criteria.

It is your job as a biological parent to parent your child.  Your bf does not live in your city.  There is no proof that he ever filed for divorce in the last 3 years.  Are you speaking to a therapist regularly about your situation?  What action will you take when he can't show proof of filing for divorce or escrow papers?  I feel for you because I used to accept this sort of behavior.  My exbf was married and lied about it, he ended up leaving his wife for me.  Eventually I realized I deserve better and I have better now.

[thisagain]

What it is about me that makes me have to respond to verbal abuse? Why can't I just let it go?

What is it about you that makes you accept verbal abuse? Or that makes you think you deserve verbal abuse? I think it's natural and healthy to respond to verbal abuse--by setting boundaries and, if it becomes a pattern that the abuser blames you for or is otherwise unwilling to remedy, ending the relationship. Blaming you is just more abuse. And if it's true that you're both verbally abusing each other, do you really think that makes the relationship MORE healthy?  

He is not married to you. Legally and based on your boundary, he can't be married to you until he gets the divorce. He hasn't done that, and he's been deceitful with you about it. That isn't a stepfather. You're doing both yourself and your daughter a huge disservice by allowing him to play that role.

[babyducks]

hi unicorn

way upstream in this thread SunflOwer posted a cut and paste about what generically makes a healthy relationship.

that's a pretty helpful list.   there is more here in this link:

The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

you've received a bunch of thoughtful opinions and advice based on the collected experience and wisdom of a group of interested and compassionate people.   

in the end though the person who's thoughts and opinions really matter are yours.   no relationship is perfect.   every person brings baggage and issues to the table.    .   you have expressed some concerns and rightly so.  all of us have concerns.  that's pretty much why we are here.   

it's been my experience that nothing in life is black and white.   sometimes I have to live with a level of ambiguity.  sometimes I can't live with that much ambiguity and need to make changes.   sometimes I have to let things go.   I can do all that in very small increments.   

you have been doing a lot of work, pulling thing apart and reaching understanding.  you're doing a good job trying to sort through a difficult situation.   

'ducks

[unicorn2014]

It is your job as a biological parent to parent your child.  Your bf does not live in your city.  There is no proof that he ever filed for divorce in the last 3 years.  Are you speaking to a therapist regularly about your situation?  What action will you take when he can't show proof of filing for divorce or escrow papers?  I feel for you because I used to accept this sort of behavior.  My exbf was married and lied about it, he ended up leaving his wife for me.  Eventually I realized I deserve better and I have better now.

He is not my boyfriend he is my fiancé.

It is apparent to me you have not been reading my posts or else you would know that I was in therapy for 8 years and recently went back in because of a crisis.

I think you are being really cynical here.

I am glad you have better now.

[unicorn2014]

What it is about me that makes me have to respond to verbal abuse? Why can't I just let it go?

What is it about you that makes you accept verbal abuse? Or that makes you think you deserve verbal abuse? I think it's natural and healthy to respond to verbal abuse--by setting boundaries and, if it becomes a pattern that the abuser blames you for or is otherwise unwilling to remedy, ending the relationship. Blaming you is just more abuse. And if it's true that you're both verbally abusing each other, do you really think that makes the relationship MORE healthy? 

I don't think I  deserve verbal abuse. I didn't say I was verbally abusing him, I said I felt I was verbally abusive in my former relationship and my former partner still thinks I communicate with him in a difficult matter, which I'm trying to amend.

He is not married to you. Legally and based on your boundary, he can't be married to you until he gets the divorce. He hasn't done that, and he's been deceitful with you about it. That isn't a stepfather. You're doing both yourself and your daughter a huge disservice by allowing him to play that role.

I don't think he's deceitful with me about it at all, I think he neglected to follow up on his divorce, there's a difference. I think that you're not understanding my situation so I'm not sure how profitable for me to keep discussing it.

[unicorn2014]

hi unicorn

way upstream in this thread SunflOwer posted a cut and paste about what generically makes a healthy relationship.

that's a pretty helpful list.   there is more here in this link:

The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

Yes baby ducks, and I tried to find the original so I could print it out but it isn't there. I actually read that before I posted, which is why I posted.

you've received a bunch of thoughtful opinions and advice based on the collected experience and wisdom of a group of interested and compassionate people.   

I didn't always experience the opinions or advice as interested or compassionate.


Thank you for your reply , I did find it helpful.

[babyducks]

I understand.

I think you might know the nooks and crannies of this website better than I do.

what do you think your take aways from this thread are?   did you learn anything you didn't already know?

[ct21218]

I have been reading your posts, but I didn't memorize it.  One of the things that helped me when I was in conflict in my former marriage was writing out what I wanted in a healthy relationship.  With my ex boyfriend, I had discovered that he was still legally married by doing an online search.  The information that he gave me didn't match what I found and I stayed in that relationship for several more years.  My marriage ended because my husband was lying about finances and what he told me didn't match what I was experiencing. After I left,he relapsed and nearly died.  :)uring our time apart I wrote out what I wanted in a relationship and what was acceptable.

When my former husband got back in recovery, we discussed getting back in a relationship.  One of our core issues was truth around finances, so he made the decision to have his checks deposited in my bank account.  I know exactly what he is spending so there are no secrets.  I also stated that we both had to be active in 12 step recovery in order to be together.  He has his program and I have mine.  If we have issues, we each go to our sponsors and come back together to talk things through.  There are no ultimatums, just common goals for a healthy relationship.  Writing out my values helped me to see what was missing in those relationships.

I don't believe that I am a cynic, but I firmly agree in what another poster said - I judge people on what they do not what they say.  My ex boyfriend said many things- that he wasn't married, he didn't live with his ex, later that they married out of convenience.  It was all lies.  Once I started to write out what I wanted, I saw that those things didn't match the relationship I was in.

When I became healthier the 12 step work, behavior that was acceptable to me became unacceptable.  My relationship is not perfect, but I try to see what I can bring to a situation.  Occasionally my partner will get angry, but we talk through our feelings instead of lashing out.  We don't keep secrets.  

[unicorn2014]

I understand.

I think you might know the nooks and crannies of this website better than I do.

what do you think your take aways from this thread are?   did you learn anything you didn't already know?

thank you baby ducks, I learned that I really have to work through my anger so that I can validate my partner. I remember that was a stumbling block for me on the staying board which is why I came over to the undecided board to recommit to my relationship. I was able to do that so I'm going to back over to the staying board and work through the BPD behaviors from the perspective of staying. Hopefully by the time I get to validation I'll be able to do so. I also learned that its up to me whether I respond to verbal abuse or not, only I can make that decision. I also learned thats it up to me to hold my own boundaries, whether my partner likes them or not. Finally I learned its very important to communicate.

[unicorn2014]

When I became healthier the 12 step work, behavior that was acceptable to me became unacceptable.  My relationship is not perfect, but I try to see what I can bring to a situation.  Occasionally my partner will get angry, but we talk through our feelings instead of lashing out.  We don't keep secrets. 

I was talking about recovery from BPD not from substance abuse, my partner is not a substance abuser, my child's father is, however my partner and I are both in recovery for adult child issues.

[waverider]

What is a healthy relationship?

To most that would seem one where transparency, truth and honesty are paramount. In short a relationship without warts.

However when dealing with a relationship were personality disorder issues are present that is often merely wishful thinking that can doom you to disappointment and failure.

What is important is that any "warts" or behavioural issues are present is that you can see them for what they are and adapt your perspectives to work around these. It is best to avoid being overly triggered by well meaning folks trying to point out these "warts'. This can push you into a corner or even JADE mode so that you move from your open and accepting of issues mode to defending yourself over them. It shifts the focus from the dealing with issues to defending them.

My RS is at what I would call at a successful and healthy stage now, but it is still riddled with many BPD behaviors including compulsive lying, self centered behavior and neediness, all of which fly in the face of what is normally deemed a healthy relationship. What is important though is that i am completely aware of it and am fine tuned as to what I can just let flow and what needs cutting off. Only someone who has lived with someone, become educated about a disorder, and put it into practice can make a call on those lines in the sand.

People will always have what they see as helpful advice, but one of the skills as the non is to learn how not to be triggered and what issues need not be raised if you have a handle on it. Part of that comes from a desire to have validation for your own previously made decisions.

We have all read the standard tools and skills, and can predict the advice that is likely to be given in a particular circumstance. If you believe you have already found a workable solution to these issues then it is best not to throw them into a forum were the responses are likely to be predictable. This can only lead to a backward step.

There are many areas in my RS that are completely contrary to the advice i give here. My advice is based on what is most likely to work for most people. The choices that work for me are those that have proven to work for me, they may be dysfunctional, but i am aiming for a harmonious relationship not the "ideal" relationship.

If you find yourself constantly defending a choice, move away from discussing it, otherwise continually defending compromising your attention for dealing with your choices, and pushes you towards blocking alternative choice. If you end up blocking alternatives then your original choice then becomes the default.

Living by default, having denied or blocked options, is what condemns us to a path out of stubbornness. Stepping away before stubbornness kicks in is a valuable, and difficult to master, life skill.

Waverider

[patientandclear]

On top of that, the non has to be able to tolerate treatment that most people would consider abuse, and remain emotionally unfazed. I'm not sure it's healthy or desirable for some of us to TRY to tolerate abuse like that, even if we're strong enough to. Especially for those of us who experienced childhood abuse or past abusive relationships.

My feelings on that issue with my relationship are, now that I have cultivated this level of emotional health and strength after an emotionally abusive childhood, why would I want to willingly go right back into a relationship where I am emotionally abused, rarely heard or allowed to speak my feelings, and often invalidated? Even if I'm strong enough to handle it, I don't want that for myself anymore.

Thisagain, I want to thank you for this observation.  It seems so obvious now that you've written it out, but somehow, I hadn't grasped this until I read your post.  It explains so much about why there is something inside of me that rules out what I know would "work" with my BPDex (never complaining or objecting, greeting him with warmth and affirmation no matter what he does), even though a part of me regrets not continuing the relationship we had going, which, in many ways, was quite fulfilling.  I think it's what you're flagging here -- those patterns and habits are what I've spent most of my adult life recovering from.  Voluntarily staying through what is objectively abusively behavior just cuts against some core value deep inside me now, though earlier in my life, I've have done it without a second thought.

Thank you for sharing that.

[unicorn2014]

What is a healthy relationship?

To most that would seem one where transparency, truth and honesty are paramount. In short a relationship without warts.

However when dealing with a relationship were personality disorder issues are present that is often merely wishful thinking that can doom you to disappointment and failure.

What is important is that any "warts" or behavioural issues are present is that you can see them for what they are and adapt your perspectives to work around these. It is best to avoid being overly triggered by well meaning folks trying to point out these "warts'. This can push you into a corner or even JADE mode so that you move from your open and accepting of issues mode to defending yourself over them. It shifts the focus from the dealing with issues to defending them.

My RS is at what I would call at a successful and healthy stage now, but it is still riddled with many BPD behaviors including compulsive lying, self centered behavior and neediness, all of which fly in the face of what is normally deemed a healthy relationship. What is important though is that i am completely aware of it and am fine tuned as to what I can just let flow and what needs cutting off. Only someone who has lived with someone, become educated about a disorder, and put it into practice can make a call on those lines in the sand.

People will always have what they see as helpful advice, but one of the skills as the non is to learn how not to be triggered and what issues need not be raised if you have a handle on it. Part of that comes from a desire to have validation for your own previously made decisions.

We have all read the standard tools and skills, and can predict the advice that is likely to be given in a particular circumstance. If you believe you have already found a workable solution to these issues then it is best not to throw them into a forum were the responses are likely to be predictable. This can only lead to a backward step.

There are many areas in my RS that are completely contrary to the advice i give here. My advice is based on what is most likely to work for most people. The choices that work for me are those that have proven to work for me, they may be dysfunctional, but i am aiming for a harmonious relationship not the "ideal" relationship.

If you find yourself constantly defending a choice, move away from discussing it, otherwise continually defending compromising your attention for dealing with your choices, and pushes you towards blocking alternative choice. If you end up blocking alternatives then your original choice then becomes the default.

Living by default, having denied or blocked options, is what condemns us to a path out of stubbornness. Stepping away before stubbornness kicks in is a valuable, and difficult to master, life skill.

Waverider

Thank you wave rider, yours is the most helpful post on this board, and what I was looking for. If I expect my relationship to look like other people's I'm going to be sorely disappointed. I was talking to my partner tonight about how I saw his dysregulation coming from a mile away and how I knew it had nothing to do with me. I likened it to standing on the shore at sea and seeing a storm come in. I told him next time I will tell him, honey, I think there's a storm blowing in and I need to go to bed soon so I'm going to say good night now and I'll talk to you in the morning. He agreed that he would not react badly. Now when push comes to shove and we're in the moment things might not go so well, but at least we had several dress rehearsals. At that point it is my responsibility to ignore his text messages after I say good night because we've already worked out ahead of time that that is what I'm going to do. Now normal people would say "that's crazy" but as you said they do not know about living with a person with a personality disorder on a day to day basis. That's what I'm looking for: people who live with a person with a personality disorder on a day to day basis, by choice.

[ct21218]

I realize that.  The psychiatrist that diagnosed me recommended weekly therapy along with 12 step work.  Substance abuse is one of the 9 criteria that can make up a diagnosis, so that had to be addressed before I could deal with my interpersonal issues.  Working through a 4th step has helped all of my issues, not just the substance abuse.  Making amends required me to change all my dysfunctional behavior patterns. My partner is borderline as well, he was diagnosed 20 years ago and spent a significant period of time inpatient.  He has addiction issues as well and the biggest changes came from both his intensive inpatient therapy, along with 12 step work when he got out.  Al-Anon and CODA are also 12 step based for those with issues other than addiction.  He has been inpatient for BPD more than 10 times and he didn't really start to get healthy until he worked the 12 steps.

When I became healthier the 12 step work, behavior that was acceptable to me became unacceptable.  My relationship is not perfect, but I try to see what I can bring to a situation.  Occasionally my partner will get angry, but we talk through our feelings instead of lashing out.  We don't keep secrets.  

I was talking about recovery from BPD not from substance abuse, my partner is not a substance abuser, my child's father is, however my partner and I are both in recovery for adult child issues.

[unicorn2014]

I realize that.  The psychiatrist that diagnosed me recommended weekly therapy along with 12 step work.  Substance abuse is one of the 9 criteria that can make up a diagnosis, so that had to be addressed before I could deal with my interpersonal issues.  Working through a 4th step has helped all of my issues, not just the substance abuse.  Making amends required me to change all my dysfunctional behavior patterns. My partner is borderline as well, he was diagnosed 20 years ago and spent a significant period of time inpatient.  He has addiction issues as well and the biggest changes came from both his intensive inpatient therapy, along with 12 step work when he got out.  Al-Anon and CODA are also 12 step based for those with issues other than addiction.  He has been inpatient for BPD more than 10 times and he didn't really start to get healthy until he worked the 12 steps.

I am glad you have a healthy relationship, I do not. Nevertheless I am staying and not leaving, my choice, and perhaps I'll make a different choice in the future.

[formflier]

In my opinion, yours is toward the unhealthy side.  A good dose of boundaries and role definition could help a bunch.

Role definition. I'm curious what you mean by that. Please enlighten me.

Role definition:  Who is supposed to be doing what.

My advice here is to focus first on being a parent.  That is your primary responsibility. 

My hope would be to focus on what co-parenting can be accomplished with the father and fill in the rest of the parenting gaps yourself.

Remember, your daughter is watching all of this.  What you do (and who and how you choose) will be making a big impression on her. 

If you find a stable person to help with parenting... .it might be a good idea to allow them to help in a limited fashion.

Introducing unstable and or unreliable people into the parenting mix has the potential to Exponentially increase your problems... .vice decrease them.

If you get into the mindset that everyone is helping everyone else with their problems... .enmeshment can and very well likely will occur.  Role definition will limit this and people will not be helping outside of their role.

Hope this helps explain.

FF

[unicorn2014]

In my opinion, yours is toward the unhealthy side.  A good dose of boundaries and role definition could help a bunch.

Role definition. I'm curious what you mean by that. Please enlighten me.

Role definition:  Who is supposed to be doing what.

My advice here is to focus first on being a parent.  That is your primary responsibility. 

My hope would be to focus on what co-parenting can be accomplished with the father and fill in the rest of the parenting gaps yourself.

Remember, your daughter is watching all of this.  What you do (and who and how you choose) will be making a big impression on her. 

If you find a stable person to help with parenting... .it might be a good idea to allow them to help in a limited fashion.

Introducing unstable and or unreliable people into the parenting mix has the potential to Exponentially increase your problems... .vice decrease them.

If you get into the mindset that everyone is helping everyone else with their problems... .enmeshment can and very well likely will occur.  Role definition will limit this and people will not be helping outside of their role.

Hope this helps explain.

FF

Coparenting? That's a joke. Her dad is an active drug user. My fiancé is helping me out. I accept my relationship is unhealthy and I'm ok with that.

[thisagain]

Thisagain, I want to thank you for this observation.  It seems so obvious now that you've written it out, but somehow, I hadn't grasped this until I read your post.  It explains so much about why there is something inside of me that rules out what I know would "work" with my BPDex (never complaining or objecting, greeting him with warmth and affirmation no matter what he does), even though a part of me regrets not continuing the relationship we had going, which, in many ways, was quite fulfilling.  I think it's what you're flagging here -- those patterns and habits are what I've spent most of my adult life recovering from.  Voluntarily staying through what is objectively abusively behavior just cuts against some core value deep inside me now, though earlier in my life, I've have done it without a second thought.

Thank you for sharing that.

Thanks, I put a lot of thought into posting here and I'm glad my words were a help to someone 

As for the rest of the thread, you can lead a horse to water... .

[unicorn2014]

Yes, I put a lot of thought in to this too. I wasn't asking the board if my relationship was healthy, it was more of a self reflective post. I am very sorry for how I worded it, it really gave the wrong impression.

[Mutt]

The thread is now locked for reaching post limit.