Stuck in limbo...

[LostGhost]

Time for another nonsensical rambling from your friend LostGhost.

Here's the footnotes of what's happened:

-Dumped in August.

-Silent treatment for 2 weeks.

-Started talking again September. Life not going good for her. Jumped in to rescue and help with a bunch of stuff.

-Quasi romantic/friendship until October.

-She lessens communication gradually.

-End of October, see at work looking sad. I inquire and find out she was dumped by new boyfriend. I get all the details. Talks about feeling "abandoned, used, discarded". I console, comfort, validate.

-Communication starts again. Tells me she has her dating profile active again a few days after being dumped. Still talking to me for now.

-We reminisce about relationship, why it didn't work out, the what ifs and if onlys.

She does not flirt with me, she makes no mention of wanting to recycle me. Just completely indifferent. With just being dumped recently, why is she not running back to me? Why is she not engaging me on that level?

In my conversations with her, she seems very self aware and high functioning. She seems like she's doing ok. She doesn't appear needy or desperate for attention. She seems different somehow. Even after being dumped, she spoke highly of this other guy's qualities, not appearing to paint him black. Although she did say she's going to pretend he "doesn't exist" and has blocked him on everything.

I'm not actively looking for a relationship with her. I'm not in a good place for one. But I am curious/feeling a little rejected that she's not even trying at all.

Do some pwBPD really cross ex partners off the list permanently? She's even seen other girls flirting with me at work, complimenting me physically or my sense of humour and it doesn't appear to bother her at all. She even says things to me like "you will find a better fit. I wish you happiness." She also makes strong comments like "I don't want to give you the wrong idea or lead you on in any way."

It leaves me scratching my head in confusion. I have read so many stories and then end up believing she's going to come running back or love bombing me or seducing me. Part of my ego wants that to happen. But there's just total indifference. She's friendly and polite but that's all I'm seeing. She hasn't told me to go away or stop talking to her or anything.

I'm starting to wonder if I was wrong about her having BPD.  

[once removed]

hey lostghost 

i think sometimes we put too much emphasis on a label. we read the stories of others and we expect our story to line up; it often does not. theres nothing about her behavior that you describe that indicates BPD one way or another, and nothing about the stories you mention that indicates BPD one way or another.

the bottom line is really why this relationship ended, and whether you hope to reconcile.

i understand indifference confusing us. ive felt similarly being around past flames that acted as if theyd never once been attracted to me and it stung for a while. do you think that is what is going on here? the blow to your ego keeping you stuck?

[SandWitch]

Perhaps it is part of BPD to want what they cannot have? Or to want to keep the one they caught and catch more?  I dunno.  If my current relationship does not work out I know in my heart of hearts I must cut all contact. The dream he awakened must be let go. It would be self abuse to be a consolation prize.  Does it really matter what label is put upon us (BPD/narcissist/co-dependent) past know perhaps what tools might be useful to improve or save a relationship?  I keep asking myself what do you need to be happy?  According to him I should be happy because he is.  Do I have the guts to figure it out?  Dreams are strange things - in a relationship it should be 50/50. 

[LostGhost]

Thank you both for your replies. Based on my experience with her I know she's BPD, she meets all 9 criteria.

The difficulty I'm having is my expectations of BPD are not lining up with reality this time. Shouldn't her abandonment fears be in full effect after being dumped by this guy? Shouldn't she be running back to me for comfort?

You're right once removed, I'm "expecting" something and it's not happening. The blow to my ego is keeping my stuck. I'm stuck between being ready to let go but also the magical belief that she's the one.

And maybe that's accurate that she assumes she already has me on the hook so no need to try.

I'm not sure what's going on with me right now. I know I can't be happy with her, not for a sustainable length of time. Something will always happen that causes the cycle to repeat. I can never change that. But I can't seem to just let go forever. Now that she's been dumped, we talk more deeply but there's still no attempt at a recycle. I thought it was almost a guarantee but I guess there are no guarantees in life.

The good news I'm not in nearly as much pain as before. I'm almost numb.

Like you say SandWitch you know in your heart if it doesn't work out you must cut contact. I think I too must cut contact. It's so hard to let go, especially when she's actually being relatively kind to me.

I think I don't necessarily want to be recycled, but part of me would like her to try.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

Here are my thoughts.  Within the realm of BPD there is room for nuance and individual expression.   While BPD sufferers shared many common traits they express them differently.   and may express them differently in different circumstances.  People contain a lot of complexities.

I don't believe pwBPD assume they have anyone on the hook, it's more likely the opposite, they feel like no one will ever love them.   

It's a difficult spot to be in, not being sure what's going on within ourselves.   That might be a gentle nudge that there is still some personal inventory work left to be done.

It might be if that she attempts a recycle that would feel validating that she is acting according to your understanding of BPD and confirms your conclusions.   It might be a boost to the ego to be wanted again.   On the other hand it's pretty natural to not want to return to the confusion and stress of a BPD relationship.   It's pretty normal to have mixed emotions.   

I liked what once removed asked;   How are you doing with figuring out why this relationship ended?     Have you made your way through Lesson 3 yet?

'ducks

[OnceConfused]

FYI, my xBPDgf had the tendency of keeping contacts with the xs, while she was with me. Here is my theory:

1. That boosted her ego that she still had control over these guys.

2.  She used them to play game with me, to show me that she had lots of pursuit and I was just one of the pawns on the table. She even let me hear the voice mail that this old guy wanted to meet her for a drink on a saturday night while we were in bed together.

Your problem now is that you work with her and see her every day. The old wound jas not healed, the old festered water was not completely emptied from your cup. Of course, you wonder what ifs you can reconcile with her, while you have forgotten the past craziness with her.

If you do still have that whatifs thoughts, why not approach her for another round ? This is you can confirm again this will work or not.

On the other hand, to complete rid your cup of old stale water, you need to NOT pour in the old festered water, even a little bit, but pour in with new fresh water. I think you should keep your dealing with her strictly on a professional basis, work related issues, and no small talk on personal stuffs.

You are treading on thin ice like a AA who keeps bottles of alcohol on the table and he can see them everyday. The temptation is huge here.

[PDQuick]

Hi Lost Ghost.

Lets throw you a curve ball. Dig deep Brother. Really think about the questions before you answer.

Lets just say she isn't disordered. Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?

Does having that label lessen the blow for you?

I love hamburgers! I love chocolate! But a chocolate covered hamburger doesn't seem like it could go good together. Could it just be that you are the hamburger, and she is the chocolate?

Maybe you are having a problem letting go because you really haven't framed this all out in you mind in the correct way. There may be lessons to learn still here. Why is it that you thing you can't let go just yet?

[once removed]

The difficulty I'm having is my expectations of BPD are not lining up with reality this time. Shouldn't her abandonment fears be in full effect after being dumped by this guy? Shouldn't she be running back to me for comfort?

along with the other questions posed, ask yourself if this is really the basis on which you want to potentially reconcile.

frankly, there are better things for your ego, too. 

[problemsolver]

By the sounds of this thread she hasn't got a diagnosis? In any case your just looking for validation that you ment something, I'm with you. You wish she would text you "LG I wish we could of worked out blah blah blah", me to man me to...

Let me put it this way , to my BPDexs - ex boyfriend ... she said I was just a friend and all we did was kiss (False) ... .She filed a P.O. recently (it didn't make logical sense but they let her just go through with it ... we don't speak anyways so it's not a big deal) In her first write up to the police she said "we never had a relationship (false) he was just a shoulder to cry on" - on her 2nd write up it said "we dated for 2-3 weeks (false)" She told her most recent friend or "replacement" (I know him somewhat he's a cool dude an acquaintance, he's a mirror image of me in terms of looks at hobbies , but that's a completely different thread in it's own right) she told him that "She wanted to have a R/S with me but I broke her heart because I was a player (closer to the real truth? Maybe... ) " she later changed her tune to "he is a psychotic pathological liar who wants me back so he will say anything to get me don't listen to him , he's crazy everyone knows that" ... When my family first saw her with me my grandmother told me "wow it seems as though this girl really loves you , she is really clingy" (In my opinion I believe at one point she "loved" me as well BUT who knows? Look at what she's done. 

So LostGhost who am I to her? Long story short I am everything so it seems? I play every role "SHE" chooses in my mind I know I'm not a stalker or psychotic or a pathological liar, am I the healthiest human on the earth? No... .If you're Ex does have BPD odds are you may never understand it anyways as you can see above there is absolutely NO LOGIC with these connections , one officer and the "counselor" on the case scratched our heads at the police statements because it didn't make any logical sense... Look how quickly my roles shifted... I went from player (essentially to many girls) to psychotic stalker (essentially OBSSESED WITH ONLY 1 GIRL IN THE WORLD as if she's a supermodel and I am just a random guy who met her had a quick fling and fell in love? dream on) this transition of roles changed within one month by the way without me verbally saying anything or reaching out to her.

[LostGhost]

These are all very helpful and thought provoking posts, so thank you! It does make me as serious questions.

OnceRemoved, you asked why this relationship ended? I don't really know. Basically we went sexless for several months and I has every excuse thrown my way. We still kissed, cuddled etc but no sex. She still seemed to love me. One night I had coffee with HER male friend that she introduced me to. Had a lot in common with the guy, still friends with him now. She texted me that obviously I didn't love her because I hadn't come home yet and she broke up with me.

Babyducks, I assume the relationship ended because I was painted black or devalued. I'm really not too sure. I didn't want it to end. The day before had been fine. Cooked dinner for her. Slept in the same bed. Both still saying I love you. Haven't made my way through lesson 3 but I shall begin.

OnceConfused, that's exactly how I feel. A recovering alcoholic with the bottle in sight. I don't think it's easy to let go because we interact nearly every day. We're still "friends". We still text outside of work, just not as much as before. I do still feel there's lots of toxic water to be emptied out. I'm not really even ready for a relationship at this point. More or less struggling with why she hasn't tried with me. Not even a little.

And no she hasn't been officially diagnosed. Why do I suspect BPD?

Has a history of very turbulent relationships. Repeatedly dumps boyfriends then goes back to them. Talks often about being abandoned, feeling empty, worthless. Exhibits chameleon behaviour where she will assimilate the likes/dislikes of current partner. Displays black/white thinking. Very emotionally reactive and sensitive. History of sexual abuse. Mother died when she was young adult. Pattern of idealizing/devaluing partners and friends. Strange sexual behaviour, either being hyper sexual in idealization or sexually avoidant in devaluation. Has had suicidal ideation. Problems with alcoholism, changes diets rapidly, reckless spending. Very flirtatious. Most friends are male.

Not diagnosed but I think it would be safe to assume?

I wonder if because she still sees me frequently, I'm still there for her so she doesn't need to try. No abandonment fear triggered even though we're not in a relationship.

Problemsolver,

Yes I think I'm looking for validation. A sign that I mattered, that all the long heartfelt discussions were real, that the connection she felt for me was real. Your story sounds brutal to endure. I haven't had to experience that thankfully  I should know enough about BPD by now to understand it was real in the moment.

I'm feeling in limbo because I'm not being idealized or devalued. I don't feel black or white. I just feel like a friend, somebody that she used to know. I guess in a way it's easier to deal with the clear cut roles we occupy when we're either black or white.

I would I'm closer to white than black since she's open to communicating with me and it's not always me initiating.

3 months out now. I'm not sure why any of this should still matter, but it does! I'm a very inquisitive person to a fault.

Thanks for your help sorting me through all of this.

[babyducks]

Hi LostGhost,

Sometimes it is eerie how familiar our stories are.  When I was very first here I remember thinking how much like an addiction my attraction to my partner was.  I also remember trying very hard to figure it all out.   For a while I thought if I could make all the pieces of the puzzle fit together I would feel better.  Being an understanding driven person I had a very desperate need to make sense of it all.   

Babyducks, I assume the relationship ended because I was painted black or devalued. I'm really not too sure. I didn't want it to end. The day before had been fine. Cooked dinner for her. Slept in the same bed. Both still saying I love you. Haven't made my way through lesson 3 but I shall begin.

For me the turning point came right around Lesson 3.    It worked like this for me.    This is a quote right out of Lesson 3.

Did know that 74% of the members of bpdfamily are experiencing some level of depression? Did you know that many of the members of this board are grieving and don't realize it. The stages of grief include: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance (Kübler-Ross).

For me I bounced back and forth between anger and bargaining and depression.   My anger was not a traditional anger, it was more an anger turned inward, and I was pretty depressed.  I spent a lot of time ruminating.   and grieving.  My bargaining was pretty intellectualized, some looking back was good and healthy, some was natural, but where I hung out in bargaining a lot was bargaining about my role in the relationship.

Did you know that as partners of people with borderline personality disorder we often suffer from low self-esteem or exhibit narcissistic tendencies, or codependent tendencies - or had very difficult parents or entered into the relationship at a very vulnerable point in our life?

Since I had heard a lot of "It's All Your Fault" from my partner and since I was pretty emotionally raw, I didn't want to look in the mirror.   I think it's fair to say I wasn't ready to look in the mirror.   Which basically kept me stuck bouncing between bargaining and some form of depression.   Eventually I got pretty sick of myself.  At some level I didn't like how I sounded and acted about this relationship.   I knew something was off about my perspective and focus.

You may be wounded too, and that suffering can be contributing to your difficulties right now. Your wounds could have been acquired in this relationship, or from a prior partner or friend. You might still be hurting from wounds from your childhood. It's easy to overlook how these wounds can factor into your behaviors. We often miss this point because our partners disorder may eclipse our own. By focusing only on the drama and your partner's disorder, you can neglect core issues of your own.

I was pretty vulnerable when I entered my relationship.  My partner's disorder certainly eclipsed any of my  that I brought to the relationship.   Still what was true for me was that focusing on her, was not going to heal me.  I couldn't look for my answers by examining her behavior.   

The two big questions for me where, why the strong addiction like attraction, why did that feel so good and normal to me?   And the second question was why did I crave her attention and approval so strongly?

When I got to the bottom of those two questions I was over the hump and out of the stages bargaining and depression and moving into acceptance.  I felt pretty good about myself.   And I felt fine about her.   

So this has gotten long winded... .

Do you have a sense of which stage you are stuck in limbo at?   There are a lot of questions on the table here from other posters.    What do you think about some of them?

'ducks

[SummerStorm]

I think a lot of this depends upon how self-aware the pwBPD is, mixed with how much shame he or she feels.  Based on her Facebook posts and the stories she's told me, my former friend BPD has never once recycled a romantic partner.  Friendships are a bit different for her; she tends to contact people after months of not contacting them at all. 

Once her feelings for someone go away or she feels a deep sense of shame for how she treated a person, she decides that the relationship is over.  And if the other person dumped her, then all bets are off because it validates her abandonment fears.  Interestingly enough, she tends to think bad fondly on the people who left her (she still has pictures of the guy who cheated on her in September on her Facebook) and to resent/paint black the people she left (she has pretty much wiped the guy who saved her life from her Facebook). 

She used to say to me things like, "When we're together... ." and call me her "soon to be girlfriend."  She even once told me that the universe was sending us a sign that it wasn't our time, but that it would be eventually.  Once those feelings went away, she said to me, "We will never happen."  It was like she knew that those feelings wouldn't return and that even if they did, they would go away again.

I do think a large part of the reason why she stayed with her ex is that he saved her life and she felt obligated to try to work it out with him.  She said to me, "He's the reason I'm alive and why I'll keep fighting to stay alive.  I still think he deserves better than me, but he doesn't, so I'm going to fight to be the girl he deserves."  So, she started molding herself into what she thought he wanted, felt engulfed, and left him two months after he saved her life.  After getting out of the hospital, she idealized him for about a week.  That was it.  Then, it was back to raging and physical abuse.  Based on her behavior in the weeks prior to the breakup (weight gain, not taking care of herself, not combing her hair), I would say that she knew it wasn't going to work out and was basically mourning the loss.

In some ways, I do think she is pretty self-aware, and it's quite sad because she knows that every relationship will end.  I can't imagine what it must be like to enter into a friendship or relationship with the expectation that it will end like all of the others have. 

[LostGhost]

Hi babyducks,

Thank you for your reply to me, there's a lot of useful information there and points to consider.

I am definitely past denial, anger and bargaining. So I believe I am stuck squarely at depression. There's a part of me that "accepts" but a large part of me that just refuses to accept. I refuse to accept because it doesn't make any sense and when something doesn't make sense, I need to give it further exploration, to find answers to fill in the blanks, to have understanding. I can understand she has a mental illness, or a personality disorder. But I can't understand why it manifests itself differently for everyone she interacts with. Most people don't know there's anything going on with her. She's lost a lot of friends over the years. But she just makes new ones and the think the world of her. She goes in and out of relationships at lightning speed. But she's had a few serious relationships as well, myself being one of them. The way the illness manifested with her ex is different than it was with me. I don't understand why. She was a slave to him. I was the slave to her. It leaves me wondering what he did that was so great that made her act like that with him. It makes me wonder what the next guy is going to be like, and the next one and the next one.

Why do I care, why should I care? I think the connection was so strong for me that I am just stuck. Stuck waiting for her to come back. I still feel like she is the one. Clearly she's not.

Why the strong addiction like attraction indeed. I've asked myself this question. There's something amazing when an extremely beautiful person you barely know suddenly catapults into your life and latches onto you like you're the answer to all of their problems. They come at you with hungry eyes, they wrap their body around you and tell you everything you want and need to hear. And then they disappear and you just feel like it was all a lie. That hurts. That will always hurt.

It doesn't really make me feel better to know that she's just going to do this over and over and over to other people. I wanted what WE had to be real. I want that SAME connection again. I've been talking to many other women, truly beautiful, intelligent, funny women. And what they say just goes in one ear and out the other because I'm too busy thinking about my ex, and how if I was talking to my ex there would be magnetism, intense attraction, chemistry.

So you see I am stuck. I've seen her go into another relationship and have heard all the details from her and that they've broken up. And I didn't rage about it, so I guess I'm "accepting" that this is all happening. Accepting, but disappointed this is what it all came to. What a monumental waste of time.

I really want to believe that I'm growing into a better person or this will make me stronger but I'm having a really hard time feeling that when I go to bed alone every single night and wake up alone every single morning. Go find someone else? Easy solution right? But I'm so incredibly damaged at the moment, I feel I need years just to become the person I need to be before I can be in a relationship again. I have so much work to do and I'm doing it.

Thank you for your reply too SummerStorm. I'm sorry you had to go through something similar. I ask that question a lot - what it must be like for them to go into each of their friendships or relationships with that expectation. They too must be walking on eggshells, anticipating their own demons will come out as soon as the other person inevitably disappoints them.

She can't even give me a logical explanation for why we ended. She said I'm an amazing, wonderful man. Just not her cup of tea. Even though I was her soul mate. 

Then she gets into a LDR relationship with a guy for a month, they finally meet up and he bangs her brains out in a hotel room and dumps her the next day. Good job! I guess I need to be more like him to attract her.

[SummerStorm]

But I can't understand why it manifests itself differently for everyone she interacts with. Most people don't know there's anything going on with her. She's lost a lot of friends over the years. But she just makes new ones and the think the world of her. She goes in and out of relationships at lightning speed. But she's had a few serious relationships as well, myself being one of them. The way the illness manifested with her ex is different than it was with me. I don't understand why.

At the end of the day, pwBPD are people.  Yes, they will probably be more attracted to more people than a non-disordered person, as they tend to look for people who will be emotional caretakers, and those come in all shapes and sizes.  However, that doesn't mean that they will be attracted to everyone, and it definitely doesn't mean that they will form an emotional attachment to anyone. 

The same is true for my former friend.  Very few people know that there's anything wrong with her.  Recently, a friend of hers contacted her ex-boyfriend, after reading an angry message from him on her FB page.  Her ex told him everything about her, and the friend replied, "I knew she smoked pot and was a bit odd, but I didn't know all of that."  She rarely hangs out with any of her friends, so she's not really close to any of them. 

Yes, she's lost a lot of friends (at least two close ones just this year, including me), but she just keeps making more.  It hurts me a lot because it makes it look like our friendship didn't matter at all. 

She also goes through relationships like crazy.  She's had four this year, and one lasted for six months, so that's actually a lot, considering that.  That doesn't include the affair she had with me.  And yet, a few years ago, she dated a guy for over a year.   

Why do I care, why should I care? I think the connection was so strong for me that I am just stuck. Stuck waiting for her to come back. I still feel like she is the one. Clearly she's not.

It's always going to be a bit different.  Mine is pretty predictable, but that still doesn't mean that it will always be the same.  A lot of it has to do with the maturity level of the pwBPD's partner, the partner's boundaries, etc.  Shared interests will also affect it.  The more the pwBPD has to mirror, the more he or she will end up feeling engulfed.  Mine is triggered by moving in with a partner.  She's not always going to end up moving in with the guy she's dating, for various reasons. Now, that doesn't mean that those relationships will be any better.  They'll probably end for some other reason, but it probably won't be engulfment. 

Thank you for your reply too SummerStorm. I'm sorry you had to go through something similar. I ask that question a lot - what it must be like for them to go into each of their friendships or relationships with that expectation. They too must be walking on eggshells, anticipating their own demons will come out as soon as the other person inevitably disappoints them.

Mine very slowly reveals things about herself, in order to gauge how others will react to her.  So, when she had sex with her ex-boyfriend not long after meeting him, she very shyly told me and another co-worker about it, almost like, "Is it okay that I did that?  Do you think that's wrong?"  She once told me, "You need to find other friends besides me."  And she never once took a picture of us together.  She takes pics with her boyfriends, for the purpose of posting them on social media and showing people how happy she is, but she never takes pics with friends.  The whole time she was with her ex, she spoke about the relationship like it definitely wouldn't be her last.  After she moved in with him, she told me that she would probably rent a few more places before buying a house, and it was clear that she meant she wouldn't be renting those places with him.  When I visited her in the hospital and said, "If you're bored this summer, just give me a call."  She didn't reply.  When I left, I told her to keep in touch.  She just gave me this sad half-smile.  That was the last time I saw her.  She knew, in that moment, that our friendship was going to end. 

She can't even give me a logical explanation for why we ended. She said I'm an amazing, wonderful man. Just not her cup of tea. Even though I was her soul mate.   

That's because she has no logical explanation.  One day, she really did think that you were her soulmate.  Then, you weren't.

A month before she was supposed to move across the country with her boyfriend, my former friend basically woke up one day and decided that she just didn't want to be with him anymore.  Two months before that, he was the reason she was going to fight to stay alive  She couldn't give me a logical explanation for anything.  The second time she discarded me and painted me black, it was because I'm "crazy."  Just like everyone else in her life, apparently. 

[once removed]

lostghost,

i suggest we focus less on the label. not because im implying your ex didnt have BPD. but because it sounds like there are (understandably) confused expectations based on what youve learned about it. if she differs from what you expect based on what youve learned, you doubt yourself. i get that, i really do. there arent a lot of distinct patterns behind my ex. her behavior after our breakup was extremely confusing despite having learned about the disorder. there are a couple of questions still unanswered. but the good news is after all this time, the label has no bearing. it was an unhealthy relationship. it needed to end. going back and forth on disorder or no disorder is very likely part of what keeps you stuck. it can be a cyclical kind of dynamic. you expect one thing, you get another, it hurts, makes you doubt yourself. you expect another, get it, it can either do the same or advance your interest. ultimately all of it advances your interest.

forgive me, ive read a lot of your back story, but how did the relationship end, who ended it, why do you think it ended (not just the reasons you were given if you didnt end it, but why you think it ultimately ended)? these questions can be purely rhetorical, but ask them of yourself at least, keeping your focus here can narrow a lot of the confusion that is keeping you stuck.

[LostGhost]

It's a valid point once removed,

On one hand I like the idea of her having BPD because that would mean our relationship ending was an inevitability and beyond prevention, no matter what I did.

On the other hand I like the idea that it was my responsibility because that would mean there's something about myself to improve upon and if I do, maybe she would recognize that and give it another chance.

To answer your questions, she ended the relationship. This was our second time around. Why do I think it ended? Originally I thought it ended because she was guilt ridden about her ex committing suicide and that it caused a lot of problems for us (lack of intimacy). She even went as far as to claim she was asexual. But then she started up another relationship right after me and had sex with this guy no problem. So I no longer believe that.

Why did it end then? I guess now I point the fingers at me. For doing too much, being a doormat, being a beta male, always putting her needs before my own, using little kid gloves with her, walking on eggshells around her. I did all of this because I thought I had to, because I thought it's what she wanted. It's all just very unattractive behaviour that no female would want. I tried to avoid the things that caused her previous relationships to end but it didn't seem to matter. For the first months she loved everything about me and what I was doing. And then she didn't but she never spoke about it or communicated anything. I knew something was wrong when we stopped having sex but it was just excuse after excuse after excuse. The real reason remains a mystery. And that kind of thing plants a seed in me that eats up my ego. Am I unattractive? Crappy in bed? It's not a fun place to be when someone doesn't tell you why or what reason - but they can go and have sex in a hotel room with some dude they picked up off the internet and barely know. That hurts!

[once removed]

really thoughtful and honest answers lostghost.

i think a relationship with a pwBPD does have some general inevitabilities. but i think of it this way. there were fundamental incompatibilities with my ex and me. things i couldnt or wouldnt live with. it took a long time, but i got to a point where if i learned once and for all my ex does not have a personality disorder, id shrug. but a lot of good came out of me believing she did.

you are undecided. by definition, that means you have a decision to make. fortunately, it does not mean you have a deadline by which to make it. right now if we boil down your position it is "i am hoping she will recognize my improvement and give it another chance". she hasnt (not saying she wont; if youre not in a relationship im not sure how she would). the decision before you is whether to pursue or detach. if you want her to give it another chance, i think taking initiative is probably required. if you wish to detach, there is no action necessary; either way, you are no longer stuck.

try to forget about the beta male label. i have felt similarly in past relationships. i kicked myself for being a door mat, and i desperately wanted a do over. it was a huge blow to my ego too. how much of that do you think is really behind wanting her to want you back?

[babyducks]

Why the strong addiction like attraction indeed. I've asked myself this question. There's something amazing when an extremely beautiful person you barely know suddenly catapults into your life and latches onto you like you're the answer to all of their problems. They come at you with hungry eyes, they wrap their body around you and tell you everything you want and need to hear. And then they disappear and you just feel like it was all a lie. That hurts. That will always hurt.

LostGhost,

Yeah there is nothing like that amazement of having someone look at you with rapt adoration.   Having someone light up and sparkle when you walk into the room   Having someone tell you how special you are.   How incredibly and uniquely precious.

You are special.   You are pretty astoundingly wonderful.  You are precious.  They don't take that away with them when they leave.   

Yes it hurts.   Yes, everyone questions, was it real ?   Did she lie?   

The trick I think is not to look through her eyes but look through your eyes.  You can see yourself as special.   You can recognize the good in you.   You can change patterns of criticism and support yourself  in all ways.

What I learned about me was I had some idealization/devaluation of my own going on.   Oh it wasn't nearly as dramatic as hers was but it was there and it was pretty dang subtle.

I would often idealize/devalue her, in my own thinking, quietly to myself.   And end up confused.  I wasn't very good at integrating all her parts into one human.  I either saw her as my soul mate or a damaged soul.  Not one human.   And while I was busy doing some black and white thinking about her I did some black and white thinking about myself.   I had some automatic negative thoughts that played in my head, and they fueled my depression.

I needed to talk nicer to myself and about myself.  I suspect part of my fear was that the only person who could identify my positive attributes was some one who was mentally ill.   Until I realized,HEY, I can recognize my positive attributes, why am I giving that job to someone else?

You Lost Ghost are a good person, strong, capable.   You are going to get this figured out.

'ducks

[C.Stein]

Yeah there is nothing like that amazement of having someone look at you with rapt adoration.   Having someone light up and sparkle when you walk into the room   Having someone tell you how special you are.   How incredibly and uniquely precious.

Yes indeed.  That memory is what makes the cold detachment so much harder to process and understand.

[LostGhost]

OnceRemoved,

Thanks for your reply. Much of what you say resonates with me. I could never really tell if there were unresolvable incompatibilities between my ex and I. During idealization, we were n the same team but in devaluation we were in opposite corners. At first she wanted kids, then she didn't. At first she liked having sex with me, then she didn't. At first she like xyz then she wanted abc. I don't know if it was incompatibilities but there were a lot of inconsistencies hat became very confusing to keep on top of. Example: You're suddenly talking to this guy on facebook again, I thought you hated him a few months back? Now he's coming for a visit? Ok... .? Then she'd get mad at me for not understanding and questioning her erratic behaviour. This happened ALL the time.

The way you boil down my position sums it up nicely. I am the definition of undecided. I have a choice to pursue her (and likely be rejected based on the vibes she's giving off currently) or I can detach and see what happens. I don't want to be waiting around forever deciding what to do. I suppose I am stuck because I feel as if I want to pursue yet again but that the timing and circumstances aren't conducive to success. I could go into detail on this but let's just say the last go around left my life in shambles, so I have little to offer any woman relationship wise, let alone my BPD ex, until I can get back on my feet.

I guess I'm preoccupied with the beta male thing because I'm a sensitive, very fit/active, yoga doing, vegetarian, artist guy. And she withheld sex forever. The next guy, she gave it up instantly and he was some wolf killing, loud, large and in charge, mount dead animals on the wall kind of guy. Just the opposite of me. He humped her and dumped her as they say. Is that what she wants? Because I'm not that guy.

Babyducks,

It's very kind of you to say such things to me, to have faith in me and offer encouragement. Thank you!

You're right, I did at times have my own idealization/devaluation going on. I didn't realize it at the time because I was committed to staying and working on the relationship no matter what. I remember sitting in the house one day thinking to myself "Is this normal? Do other couples go months without having sex? Do other girlfriends tell their guys that they are the lowest priority in their lives? Is this what happens in other relationships? I started to think it was normal. Part of me still does. I feel like I'm conditioned to expect to be treated like everything and everyone else is more important and to have intimacy withheld. I feel like the hunchback of Notre dame which is sad, because I DO have a lot going on for me. I'm a part time actor/model so I know I can't actually be a hideous ass that repulses people, but I don't know why my ex withheld sex. She literally convinced me she was asexual. But then she goes and has sex with this other guy no problem. So I'm back to thinking no it was something wrong with me all along.

I remember thinking when I was with her and feeling particularly low that I should just leave, maybe life can be better. But now I have nothing. At least before I could cuddle her, hold her at night, massage her, touch her, look at her. Now I have nothing and I'm not enjoying it. I'm ok with myself. I don't hate my own company, but nothing beats going to sleep at night with an attractive partner in your arms and waking up to them in the morning. It's divine and I miss it.

Most days I am ok. But sometimes I just feel so depressed and hopeless. I don't recommend trying to be friends with your ex. It's like... .she still gets the best of me and I get nothing in return. Sex was out of the equation long ago, so if I'm still there for her in other ways, it's like the relationship never ended for her really. I'm still the lowest priority.

I have fantasies of having a wildly successful couple of years, focusing all of my efforts into that, landing an attractive partner. But all of this is fuelled by a desire for my ex to notice me again. Why?

I think the absolute best course of action is to completely detach. Again why I don't recommend being friends, because it's incredibly difficult to disappear on someone you're getting along with compared to someone you're upset with right at the end of a relationship.

Thanks again. The saga continues slowly but surely. Everything concludes eventually and this shall too - though to what end I do not know.

[JQ]

Hello Lost ghost,

Seen any good movies lately?     I know what you're going through is the toughest thing you've had to do in your life to date ... .or very close to it.  As you know I've been in on your story from the beginning and I've read all the post from you & to you and you've received some good guidance, some very thought provoking questions to ask yourself and you've given some rather interesting responses ... .

You said, "So I believe I am stuck squarely at depression. There's a part of me that "accepts" but a large part of me that just refuses to accept. I refuse to accept because it doesn't make any sense and when something doesn't make sense, I need to give it further exploration, to find answers to fill in the blanks, to have understanding."  Depression is a strange thing to deal with ... .we don't want to believe that we are and when we finally realize it we are at a loss as how to get out of the funk. Like others have suggested I would encourage you to seek out professional guidance in a therapist to help you sort out your feelings, thoughts and help you come to a understanding of things. NOW a understanding of things might NOT include why things happen or how to fix things or why she acted or behaved the way she did. I've said before that NOTHING has and NOTHING will make sense when we as NONs are dealing with BPD ... .BPDs have emotionally stunted behavior of a 3 yr old and as anyone will testify to that has spent ANYTIME with a 3 yr old they're logic makes sense to them and only them ... .so don't beat yourself up to try & understand her behavior or to try & find answers to questions you have ... .because the truth is ... .you like a lot of us will NEVER find answers to some of your questions.  It is what it is ... .

You said, "I can understand she has a mental illness, or a personality disorder. But I can't understand why it manifests itself differently for everyone she interacts with."  You need to understand that any human being regardless if they have a mental illness or personalty disorder or NOT react & act different to different people ... .people are not computers or robots that have the same interaction with everyone they meet. You yourself will react different to meeting new people based on the environment or the circumstances involved ... .it is no different for those who suffer from the mental or behavioral illness.  The basic thing about humans is that we have unpredictable regardless and NO two situations will ever be the same ... .ill or not.

You said, "It doesn't really make me feel better to know that she's just going to do this over and over and over to other people. I wanted what WE had to be real. I want that SAME connection again. I've been talking to many other women, truly beautiful, intelligent, funny women. And what they say just goes in one ear and out the other because I'm too busy thinking about my ex, and how if I was talking to my ex there would be magnetism, intense attraction, chemistry."  She can't even give me a logical explanation for why we ended. She said I'm an amazing, wonderful man. Just not her cup of tea. Even though I was her soul mate.  You are obsessing over what she is or is not doing with whoever ... .as I've said before ... .this doesn't do any good but cause you stress, anxiety, anger, depression and you need to take a deep breath and step back for a few moments.  I know what you WANT is it to be real and you WANT it back ... .we all did Lost Ghost ... .the truth of the matter is ... .as you've read in all the references is that it will never go back to what it was.  You mentioned "magnetism, intense attraction, chemistry" ... .I encourage you to read the book, "The Human Magnet Syndrome" ... .this book will explain why we as NONs are so attracted to those who have BPD. Once you read it you should have a better understanding and you'll have one of those "AHA MOMENTS" ... .and things will be little bit more clear I hope.  I'm not telling you to read it to get her back ... .I'm telling you that you should read it to better understand you as a NON and why someone who has BPD seems to be our "perfect life mate" ... .I've dated at least 2 exBPDgf who were at the extreme and I too thought they were my life mates ... .once I separated myself from them ... .took a long period of time to really look at myself and do some self reflection did I come to the real understanding that as intense as it was in the beginning with the great conversation & earth moving porn sex ... .it was never going to be like that again ... .ever. I realized that they had mental / behavioral issues that were FAR BEYOND MY ABILITY TO HELP WITH.  It was only after my last exBPDgf did I learn of BPD and how serious it is. Remember the 3 C's ... .YOU didn't Cause it! YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!  Learn it! Know it! Live it!

You said, "I really want to believe that I'm growing into a better person or this will make me stronger but I'm having a really hard time feeling that when I go to bed alone every single night and wake up alone every single morning. Go find someone else? Easy solution right? But I'm so incredibly damaged at the moment, I feel I need years just to become the person I need to be before I can be in a relationship again. I have so much work to do and I'm doing it."  I know it's painful ... .I know that you're really trying and I don't want you to stop or give up ... .we ... .the group here are only a small part of  you learning more about yourself, of moving forward ... .you put time lines on things ... .DO NOT do that ... .example. "I feel I need years".  If you're here talking to us, expressing how you feel ... .if you're seeking out professional therapy it might not take years ... .like I said before, all human beings are different & react to medical treatment different ... .they react to mental health therapy different ... .for you ... .it might not take years ... .but only you can decide after looking inward if you're ready to move onward ... .that your not obsessing about her or if the relationship will ever happen again or what she is doing or not doing with anyone. Then if you can look at yourself in the mirror and be honest with yourself ... .can you not only move forward for yourself but for that potential woman that you're going to date & maybe have a loving, caring, mutual respectful relationship with ... .because if your still obsession over her on any level ... .you're not being fair to yourself or the that woman your dating. DON"T compare any future woman you date to this one relationship ... .again ... .that does NO ONE any good and you might just miss out on the best thing that has ever happened to you in your life. And don't beat yourself up if the first woman you date ISN"T the one ... .you're a young guy ... .intelligent, caring, active ... .it is quite possible that you might date several women before you ... .life is short ... .ENJOY THE HELL OUT OF IT!  I just found out that a young Sailor I served with just passed away ... .you never know when you're time on this earth is going to be up ... ."We don't come with an expiration date".  That means we can expire at anytime ... .GET UP & EMBRACE LIFE EACH & EVERYDAY!

baby ducks said, "You Lost Ghost are a good person, strong, capable.   You ARE going to get this figured out."  they are so right !  You are a strong good person ... .you're very capable ... .take a step back ... .look at things in a different light ... .go get another beer & burger with or without a buddy!    Go see another movie ... .I hear the Bond movie is quite good ... .take a deep breath ... .invest time in yourself ... .invest quality not quantity ... .

JQ

[LostGhost]

JQ,

Haha I did indeed see a new movie, the Bond movie actually. The only problem with Spectre is the new Bond girl looks almost exactly like my ex. Same appearance, body, height, mannerisms . So that interfered with my enjoyment of the movie a bit! Great movie though!

I've done therapy before, twice actually. I'm just not sure what more I can gain from it at this point. I don't feel it's been too long since my last session. I think I am on the mend, just slowly. I wouldn't say every day is better but maybe every two weeks I feel myself move a little more forward in the direction I need to be going.

I hear much about how they are at the level of a 3 year old but I find it hard to believe that sincerely. She's very high functioning. Owns her own car, house, pays bills, great career. She navigates through life with quite a bit of knowledge. Emotionally yes, she's a bit immature. But I don't think child like, more like a 16 year old. She only seems to suffe in her relationships. They brung out some truly strange and unfortunate behaviours. But if you'd never been in a relationship with her, you'd think she was the new Bond girl .

It's true people are not robots. I guess I just expected dome sort of consistency. I expected her next boyfriend to be somewhat like me but instead he was opposite and that hurts. Makes it seem like she will take what she can get, she'll be with anyone, it's not personal. Which means I was nothing but a guy. Who I was as an individual didn't matter.

I am prepared for wherever life takes me next. I just get stuck on a lot of unanswered questions lost in this two year span of time. It has become a bit of an obsession I admit. I can't go through this crap again with another woman. If it happens again, I'm done, celibate. It's too painful to be betrayed, cheated on, manipulated. I want a partner that loves and respects me, doesn't play mind games and is loyal. If I can't get that in life then I have no interest.

Life is short as you say and I would like to enjoy it.

[C.Stein]

Makes it seem like she will take what she can get, she'll be with anyone, it's not personal. Which means I was nothing but a guy. Who I was as an individual didn't matter.

I can relate to this in a big way.  I don't know anything about her new guy, but I do know she will almost certainly latch onto the first guy who makes her feel good about herself and shows an interest in her.   She doesn't have time to meet new people right now as she is in a very time intensive training program.  Chances are she latched onto the one guy in the program with her and she did it well before we stopped dating.   This hurts quite a bit.

I liken it to a fresh coat of paint on rotting wood (her self-hatred, shame, guilt ... .).  Each new guy is a fresh coat of paint to cover up all the internal chaos and pain, but eventually the new coat of paint will chip and fall off because it was applied to an unsound surface.  

I was just a fresh coat of paint to her, no different than any other guy who filled the same purpose.  The new guy is another fresh coat of paint and it will also chip and fall off.  It is deeply saddening knowing this is how she is.

This hurts especially bad because she told me I was the first person she had ever considered building a family with.

[JQ]

Lost Ghost,

I hear what you're saying about everything ... .therapy ... .perhaps weekly or bi-weekly visits will help you sort out your feelings, your emotions, your thoughts. Just a thought ... .I went weekly for 16 months to work through not only the BPD issue ... .but other issues that were all tied together ... .it truly help me see things a little clearer ... .helped me understand my actions, behavior and helped me not ONLY understand but to help me adjust my behavior ... .my thought process about several things.

I know your confused ... .hurt ... .your male ego has taken a huge hit and your down on one knee.  STOP thinking about the other guy!  You are taken this to a level of being too personal ... .this isn't about what you have ... .or don't have ... .this isn't about your good looks and his so so looks ... .this isn't about you having six pack abs & the other guy have a pony keg ... .this isn't about what you can't do under the sheets and what this guy can do under the sheets ... .its NOT ABOUT ANY OF THAT!  IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!  It's about her & her mental / behavioral illness.  As you have read most BPDs will replace the NON with someone who is from all aspects less then the original.  Hell my exBPDgf picked a guy who was nearly 10 years older then her, in ill health, divorced, etc. etc. etc.  And I was like you ... .what the hell?  But from my reading of resources here & a few books it has NOTHING ... .NOTHING TO DO WITH ME OR YOU!  What I come to learn is she ... .they ... .have this survival skill they learned to seek out & select their "victims" like a leopard departing a gazelle from the heard "the weak / lame / sick ones" ... .who have severe self esteem issues, who are weak socially, ... .that probably haven't had a date in some time ... .divorced, ... .less then the average male. They can manipulate them very very easily to what they want ... .to what they need. DO they do this consciously  ... .do they do this knowingly?  I would like to say no ... .it's almost subconsciously and I've read it's a survival skill they've learned.  UDE ... .you should of seen who the hell I was replaced with ... .TWICE!  Then I read it's not about me ... .it was never about what I had or didn't have or what I looked like ... .she has a serious mental / behavioral illness and NOTHING MAKES LOGICAL SENSE WITH THEM!  

Don't expect consistency ... .like logic with a BPD it's never going to happen. You said your exBPDgf is high functioning ... .well so is mine. She has a Bachelors from an Ivy League school, she has 2 Master degree's ... .she makes 6 figures ... .works for a major Fortune 100 company ... .she has 2 kids ... .she has nothing to show for all the money she makes ... .she's tens of thousands of dollars in debt ... .she constantly has problems with work to the point where she is scared of loosing her job ... .she had to transfer within her company because of issues ... .she has relationship issues with her 2 kids to the point where the ex-husband has threaten to get full custody ... . SHE HAS BPD! SHE HAS SERIOUS SERIOUS BEHAVIORAL ILLNESS!  I've come to the realization that she will be ill for the rest of her life ... .she is on yet another therapist ... .I lost count how many she told me over 25 plus years of therapy.  I 've come to learn ... .IT'S NOT ME ... .IT WAS NEVER ME!  At one point she told me, "You've done everything I've asked you to do ... .yet I still can't be with you because I don't ... .I can't promise you that I won't cheat on you ... .I can't promise you that because I don't know ... .I'm broken ... .I'm damaged to my core."  

As much as I want to help her ... .I now she is broken ... .remember the 3rd C ... .I can't Cure it!  Her flying monkey's are her flying monkey's ... .I feel for her ... .I really do ... .I care for her ... .I love her ... .BUUUT ... . I can't Control it!  I can't control her BPD ... .hell she can't control her BPD ... .it boggles the mind ... .it doesn't make sense ... .it hurts ... .you're confused ... .you want answers ... .I'm sorry Lost Ghost ... .but you like a lot of us might not ever get the answers you want ... .I only hope what I've told you here helps you realize this.  I only want her to find  peace ... .I would like to think that she will have the weapons to slay the demons that haunt her each & everyday of her life ... .her more than anyone I know deserves that ... .

I hope for you that you find the peace you seek ... .I hope for you that you work towards getting healed ... .become a stronger person ... .learn why this persons behavior has affected you more then other you've dated ... .perhaps you will learn more about yourself then you ever thought possible ... .when you do this ... .the relationship you want will come to you and be more amazing then any other before ... .

Now go get that burger ... .that beer ... .go watch a college game ... .a pro game ... .relax ... .chill ... .reflect ... .learn ... .grow ... .laugh ... .enjoy life  !

JQ

[once removed]

lostghost,

one very clear theme from what you shared is that she doesnt seem to know what she wants, in some very important areas. if thats not an incompatibility, its a great obstacle to compatibility. also, you participated in my thread on folks' top ten red flags, and an unresolved previous relationship has been named consistently. from personal experience it makes you feel like youre in a competition you didnt sign up for.

it also seems clear to me that you are, as i said, suffering from a major wound to your ego, also something i understand well. if youre anything like me, youre craving attention from women. if it was another woman, itd take your mind off her (i dont recommend dating quickly, looking to be rescued, or in general, external validation to get over a person, but i do recommend generally interacting with people not limited to the same sex). but as a result of this very particular wound to your ego, you dont feel naturally attractive and confident. this takes time to recover from, mostly comes from within, though things like being around people that make you feel good about yourself really help. you miss the ex your attention gave you. you have to be around her, and all you experience feels more or less like indifference. i cant overstate what a challenge it feels like to recover the wound when thats what youre subjected to.

in my experience, i had a lot of trouble getting over exes until i, without fooling or lying to myself, decided/accepted they were not for me. thats a unique process. i can help sort it out, but cant decide it for you or speed up the process. i can also relate and strongly, as i said; most of my relationships in high school i spent the after math kicking myself, wanting another go around to heal my damaged ego. i learned a lot, and i changed a lot, in my relationship with my ex. my ex would call me a badass an awful lot, and tell me how "manly" i was. im really not. im a very sensitive guy. an adam sandler movie can make me tear up. i can talk about my feelings, i can make very close relationships with women (and similar men), and im a musician. it felt nice to hear; the outcome was the same as my previous relationships.

so my point is not to over focus on the beta male label - you are entitled to it, but it can be fraught with peril. it can teach a person that an avoidant attachment style is the way to go. its a very shaky foundation, that if rejected, can be even more painful to your ego. everything you described are good qualities and will attract any number of men. you are probably by now familiar with the concept of boundaries. i cant stress enough how good healthy boundaries will attract good healthy women and weed out the rest. sure being a door mat isnt generally attractive to women, and thats about boundaries too. you have described a woman that seems to be lacking in that area.

i dont want to over focus on the mental illness aspect either, but a pwBPD lacks a stable sense of self. that can be reflected in choices of partners, behavior toward partners, what one consistently wants out of a partner, and i think you described all of that. in other words, though it feels very personal, it is more about her than you. youre not "that guy", you are you. the most authentic, true to yourself version of you, is the most attractive version of you, to a healthy woman.

i think the best goal is to find ways to improve your self confidence and rediscover that authentic (but better, older, wiser) version of you and there are many ways to do this. what are some things you have done so far? frankly you may find your tastes toward her change as you heal this wound.

[LostGhost]

Hi once removed,

I'm having a rough time as of late so don't feel I can muster the energy for an articulate reply but wanted to thank you for your input.

I agree that she doesn't know what she wants. It seems to change every week. The competition I was in ended many months ago as her ex committed suicide. I guess now I'm in competition with the new guys. She's admitted she compares all of her partners so I've no doubt she is comparing the new ones to me. She's even told me I set the bar that she compares them to. Which makes my question, why not just be with me then?

Yes I have suffered a terrible wound to my ego and it's ongoing as I work with her. Every time I hear her laugh or just enjoying her new romances, I die a little more inside. It's like constantly having someone standing in front of you, pointing their fingers and rubbing your face in all of your flaws and weaknesses while laughing at you, then parading around with men she believes are superior.

Also I started to fall hard for someone else at work. She only had one long term relationship and I felt in my bones she was everything I was looking for. We hit it off instantly, tons in common, mutual attraction, she was telling me what a great guy I am... .and then I find out she started dating someone. So I have been friend zoned. Not feeling good about this either. Feeling miserable actually. My ex and her are friends and I have to hear them both going on about their exploits.

How have I improved my confidence? Here is my list: go to gym every day (literally), run in marathons, buy new clothes, new haircut, read self help books, talk to friends, talk to strangers, keep going to work, watch motivational speeches/videos/music on youtube, work on my hobbies, yoga, cooking, paint, write, acting, sing, dance. Physically I am in the best shape of my life. I'm very proud of my physique and how I look. Proud I have a diverse set of hobbies and skills.

What future goals do I set? Expand my art business to earn more $. Buy my own house again. Keep doing what I'm doing. That's it for now.

This next part is a dark cloud of negativity so if you don't want to hear that right now, please stop reading... .

But behind the fake smile I put on every day... .well I admit this will sound like I'm BPD myself... .but I feel nothing but emptiness inside. Nothing I'm doing is helping. Time isn't healing. If I don't wakeup tomorrow, great, because I'm honestly exhausted. I derive no joy from life any more and when I think about what my future is... .work myself up to be in another relationship? One that will inevitably end - due to falling out of love or incompatibility or infidelity or "I love you, I'm just not in love with you", or "it's not you, it's me", or them getting hit by a car... .what's the point? I can't go through it again. I outright refuse to have my heart broken again. The pain is so immense I can scarcely describe. I know this is illogical because there are no guarantees in life.

When I go into a relationship and it feels serious, I give 1000%, all that I am and all that I can offer. So when it ends, it's catastrophic to me. It's like a nuclear bomb goes off and annihilates my world and I'm left standing in the rubble with black ash falling all around me, wishing I'd been at the epicentre of the blast so I could disappear along with all my hopes and dreams too. That's enough of that! Time to put on my fake smile and get through another day, hoping  time will fix how I feel.

[JQ]

Good morning L.G.


I'm sorry you're having such a rough time ... .take a deep breath and relax for a moment.  From following you for a while and reading your post ... .especially your last one ... .you seem to be a guy somewhere around mid 20's? Maybe late 20's early 30's?  You are in great shape physically ... .you run marathons ... .DUDE! THAT'S FREAKING AWESOME!  As a once long distance runner myself I can tell you that is no easy accomplishment. You have some amazing off work things that you do. And you are a very caring, individual ... .

You're going through a rough period of time ... .we've all been there ... .more than once. A relationship with BPD is no easy thing to get over ... .I was in my early 20's with my first exBPDgf ... .I thought as you did right now. I didn't know what BPD was at the time ... .I just thought she was batch!t crazy. I eventually moved on ... .and dated others as life went on as you will too.

You have learned a good lesson ... .but you don't know it yet ... .never date anyone you work with     I've done this twice during my lifetime ... .twice was enough ... .nothing good comes from it after you break up and it causes to many issues to count as you have learned ... .so ... .    don't date anyone you work with 

You have some amazing opportunities to meet some wonderful women to date ... .how?      You run marathons ... .great way to meet like minded motivated never quit individuals.  You dance ... .need I say more? You like to cook ... .do you know how many woman take cooking classes? Acting ... .my ex-wife is a thespian ... .again like minded people. You sing, ummm ... .you do know how many woman go out to sing Karaoke?  Yoga? Really? There have been some very nice  and beautiful women in the yoga classes I've taken.  You are outgoing and are intelligent, well written, well spoken, well diverse.  You have plenty ... .PLENTY! of opportunities to meet some incredible amazing women ... .

don't let this set you back ... .here's  a hand to help pick yourself up ... .here let me dust you off ... .now you have to decide to stay in the funk you're in ... .or lean forward and take the next step!  I know you're really in a funk ... .I would really encourage you to seek out some professional counseling to help you sort out your feelings, thoughts, and behavior ... .it's a great sign of strength ... .trust me! 

So ... .it's Friday ... .get out there and get that burger & beer!     I"m going to go see the movie you recommended ... .the Martian ... .I'm little behind the power curve as I've been little busy with other life issues ... .Oh yeah ... .I'm going to go have  burger & beer afterwards too ... .  let compare notes later ... .

JQ

[LostGhost]

Hi JQ,

You're a good man. Thanks for trying to pull me up.

I am in my early 30's yes. I guess I'm more jaded than I should be at this point on my life because the same thing keeps happening and I'm tired of it. I just want a normal, healthy, monogamous relationship. Very simple! I think you're right about avoiding dating people you work with. Lesson learned!

I do meet a lot of amazing, beautiful women in my career and hobbies and I can tell you what happens almost every single time - instantly friendzoned! I'm the guy they cry to cause their loser boyfriends abuse them, treat them like crap, don't pay them enough attention etc and I  classic white knight nice guy syndrome. I have yet to see a women be sexually interested in me. It's always platonic. I've read several books now on how to be more alpha male, and I am already doing or behaving in the ways suggested. I really want to go up to my ex and this other woman and say What the heck do these guys have that I don't, please explain.

I think part of the issue is because I take such good care of myself, because I invest so much time and energy in improving myself - rejection hurts even more, friendzone hurts more. It's like, even at my best, I'm still not good enough. So what more do I need to do, seriously?

My friend's wife gives advice like don't be a pussy, treat them like a princess but *%#* them like a (rhymes with door). I feel like paying a women to go on a few dates with me, sleep with me and then teach me everything I'm doing wrong in life. Because apparently I didn't learn some mysterious crap earlier on in life.

You'll like the Martian my friend. And I'll do as you say and grab a burger and beer for my Friday sanity. All of my friends are busy doing things with their partners so it'll be me, myself and I but whatever, I can still enjoy a burger and beer.

LostGhost's lessons for life: don't stay with your high school sweetheart and marry them. Because when they cheat on you and leave you for dead like the last 13 years were nothing, your experience with women is limited to one person.

Don't let a pwBPD be the second person you date after your wife cheats on you and leaves you for dead. The idealization will feel amazing after being so low for so long, but when it blows up in your face and you realize it was all a lie and an illusion, you won't feel very good about life.

Don't date coworkers.

Listen when people on here tell you to go NC and not recycle. I didn't listen. And now I pay the price every day. Also why you don't date coworkers, you can't go NC.

[once removed]

lostghost, we are only a few years apart, and it sounds like we share a lot of the same experiences with women.

what i have learned is that healthy women are attracted to healthy men. men with confidence, healthy boundaries, and of course humor helps. the "alpha male" stuff is mostly pickup artist routine that encourages an avoidant attachment style and can result in a false self. in my experience this will not improve your love life or your relationships with women. ive been full circle with this myself. for years i was over the top with the nice guy routine and would find myself "friend zoned" as you describe it, which is a place i think we put ourselves, not where a woman puts us, but i can see why it feels that way, and thats how i saw it at the time. the good news is that we can change it but we need to look at our reasoning. it was pointed out to me that my behavior was unattractive to women, and how they saw me, by a female friend, so i changed it. i did see results. mostly that i found myself in push-pull games with women instead of me trying to win them over with my "niceness". when id get knocked on my butt, it hurt even more, every time. i met my BPDex and its like i could do no wrong. it was the first relationship where i felt completely secure, that she was incapable of leaving me, more or less that she liked me more than i liked her. so though i threatened it, and at times wanted to, i never left. ultimately she did leave me, for another guy. i arguably made worse choices afterward.

these relationships have a way of exposing our false self to us. it is ego shattering when this occurs but its the greatest catalyst for growth and development of our authentic selves that i can think of. you are doing "the right things" to build confidence but its not coming and youre not feeling any better. you mention white knight syndrome, and it seems to me that the underlying issues are not being addressed. this is where you are getting a sense of self worth, it has been met with rejection the harder you try, and that rejection has been internalized.

youre doing great work, but your self worth will not come from external sources or "alpha male" tricks. external sources help - being around people that healthily mirror you, validate you, appreciate you, confidence building stuff, hobbies, they help reinforce your identity and sense of self, but, and i know i make this sound simple, but the pain and emptiness inside will likely not subside without a change from within. you have to love and accept yourself. its an issue very much worth exploring in therapy. there are habits there and attractions that may be hard to break. there is more than enough there to love, lostghost, and i say with certainty, plenty of women that would/will agree, but this pattern becomes addictive, self fulfilling, and sets you up for rejection. it can change but it will take work.

one place to start is to identify this dynamic with women (you have) and then to recognize you are attracted to it (and why). you can begin consciously distance yourself from it. if i meet a girl and she starts looking to me as a shoulder to cry on, i no longer pull away to try to make her more attracted to me (or feel rejected if she isnt), i pull away because my gut is telling me something: "this makes me uncomfortable". why does it make me feel uncomfortable? partly because ive experienced it before. mostly because its really not the best way to establish a bond with a person that soon; its poor boundaries. its true that people in general, not women specifically, will respect you more when you display solid boundaries. internally, as you do it, you start to respect yourself. thats the ultimate confidence builder. 

[JQ]

L.G.

Dude ... .Martian was a really great movie and I'm glad I went to see it on the big screen. I was one of  a dozen people in the theatre AND I had a seat up from to get the full affect of the space & martian landscape scenes ... .awesome movie! thanks of the recommendation ... .

Ok ... .now ... .I see a    here with you ... .you're being really hard on yourself for a couple of life learning experiences in dating. You said, "It's like, even at my best, I'm still not good enough. So what more do I need to do, seriously?      Really?  Come on you're better then that.  Any woman in a caring & loving relationship half become friends first with there perspective mate.  If a woman sit's and talks to you, tells you things that you think might be, "friend zoned" ... .look at it as a good thing ... .she trust you to tell you things that mean something to her, that are bothering her, that are causing her some pain, anxiety or frustration.  BUT JUST LISTEN!  Here's a little secret to think about and incorporate in your life ... .now it's a man secret ... .so DON'T tell any woman that you know this.    A woman tells you those things because she trust you enough to vent ... .DO NOT ... .REPEAT ... .DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT DONT' TRY TO SUGGEST ANY IDEAS!   THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO FIX IT THEY JUST WANT YOU TO LISTEN AND BE A FRIEND!  And basic relationship 101 will tell you for ANY relationship to work long term ... .to mean anything ... .a woman wants her mate to be a friend ... .and in a lot of cases a better friend then any girlfriend could be ... .they want you to be their best friend!     so remember don't tell any woman that you know this   a little information from me to you ... .  ... .in any relationship you want to be friends before you can be lovers ... .much more intimate on any level. Are you receiving what I'm sending?

But from the sounds of things you aren't ready yourself ... .you have some more homework to do on yourself L.G.  In MHO, you still aren't ready yet ... .remember ... .no woman wants to be with a man who lacks self confidence ... .then again ... .it goes both ways.  Work on yourself ... .apply some basic rules of relationship communication and things will happen ... .don't be in such a hurry ... .relax ... .remember it's not the crossing the finish line that is so  important ... .it's the journey along the way.  Have fun, build up the friendship with mutual things you like to do ... .like running ... ... ..go to a show at the theater ... .have her watch you sing & have fun with it ... .go to movies ... .get a cup of Starbucks ... .watch football ... .talk ... .go for a hike ... .talk some more about the possibility of life somewhere else in the galaxy ... .ask her if she could be any super hero which one would she be ... .ask what her middle name is, what her favorite color is ... .cake or pie ... .PB&J or wheat or white bread ... .how does she like her hamburger well done or medium ... .get to know who she really is ... .as a person ... .the rest will follow ... .be patient young Jedi ... .

Now go get that burger & beer ... .you're homework is due on your next posting 

JQ