Circular Arguments: "I am your mate"

[unicorn2014]

  newcomers and oldtimers

Time to start a new thread. There are two spin offs from my last thread, circular arguments and self inflicted wounds. I've read about circular arguments before Form flier brought it up so I'll start there. Once I finish the other lesson I'll post about that too.

So today when I called my partner after my appointment with my social worker and I was telling him how she gave me the characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder to learn about my dad my partner told me before the conversation ended "I am your mate" as a sign of support. The ironic thing is my social worker was asking me why my dad's opinion of me mattered. (I've been covering this subject on the coping board but for those who don't read that board: my daughter got sent home from summer camp 5 weeks early this year and even though I told my dad many times I had no say in the matter he would not acknowledge this. My social worker asked me why my dad's opinion of me mattered.)

This ties into my subject, I am your mate, the other person that's troubling me is my partner's wife. In my last subject about "why fight at all" I was talking about my partner's wife told him she thought it was inappropriate I sent a card and pictures to his parents and form flier asked me "why do you care what she thinks?"

Well, the answer to that question is my father is a narcissist,  , but to deal with the subject at hand, I am your mate, well, I (perhaps mistakenly so) likened me caring about what my dad thinks to me caring about what my partner's wife thinks so then when my partner reassures me at the end of the conversation "I am your mate" it sounds hollow to me.

How does this tie into circular arguments you ask? Well, I want to tell him "No you're not my mate, you're still married to X, you're still living in Y, how can you be my mate?" I experience the same thing when he tells me: I miss you, I care about you, I love you, I'm devoted to you, I want to be with you, I miss us, I need to move so I can get on with my healing. It all makes me want to pick a fight with him and get mad at him. I don't, but I just wish these bad feelings would go away.

There has got to be a middle ground between picking a fight and saying "No you're not my mate because you're married to x and you live in y" and just accepting what he says carte blanche as being true for him without any say for myself.

Its kind of funny because today in my recovery meeting somebody said to me "I heard you were married" and looked at my hand and i had taken off my engagement ring this morning because I was mad at my partner. I of course put it back on because like it or not, meaning I haven't called off the engagement, yet, I'm still engaged. In fact the person who asked me made a joke about thats a good place to be, perpetually engaged.

   

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[myself]

Do some of the recurring problems in your r/s keep happening because you don't speak up for yourself enough? Not doing so could add to your resentment and frustration more than lessen them. If something is truly important to you, and he's your partner/potential mate, express yourself. Take the 'circular' out of it by being as straight with him as you can be.

[unicorn2014]

Do some of the recurring problems in your r/s keep happening because you don't speak up for yourself enough? Not doing so could add to your resentment and frustration more than lessen them. If something is truly important to you, and he's your partner/potential mate, express yourself. Take the 'circular' out of it by being as straight with him as you can be.

How do I tell the man who considers himself to be my mate "you're not my  mate because you're still married to x and you still live with in y" without being accused of being combative or confrontational or borderline, all things he's accused me of. He'll say something like "I was just trying to be affectionate", which is what happened the last time when I didn't react positively to him telling me he was thinking of me in an intimate way. How do I tell that to a man who put a 1K engagement ring on my finger that I had picked out myself? (Which was more then the set of wedding rings my ex husband and I bought together).

[Turkish]

It sounds to me like you are still sending undecided signals his way. He views the r/s one way; you, another. How to reconcile this, keeping in mind that neither of you is responsible for the other's feelings?

By not being honest (invalidating yourself), resentment builds, such as taking off the ring, which seems like a way to say "I just broke up with you!" but to yourself. That's not healthy for you or the r/s. However, If I heard, "I'm not your mate because [JADE]," that would sound to me that you don't want to be in the relationship. You're viewing things from opposite angles.

Could you come up with a SET statement that validates your feelings and his, yet contains the truth?

[GaGrl]

I immediately went to SET also.

The fundamental piece is getting to the point you can say your Truth.

Which means you have clarity on your Truth.

That's the work that no one can do except you.

[formflier]

Remember... .less is more when communicating with pwBPD.

"Thank you for feeling like my mate."

"You are not my mate... .yet"

"Thanks for the support"

Short and to the point.

I suspect he is pushing to advance the r/s.

FF

[unicorn2014]

It sounds to me like you are still sending undecided signals his way. He views the r/s one way; you, another. How to reconcile this, keeping in mind that neither of you is responsible for the other's feelings?

By not being honest (invalidating yourself), resentment builds, such as taking off the ring, which seems like a way to say "I just broke up with you!" but to yourself. That's not healthy for you or the r/s. However, If I heard, "I'm not your mate because [JADE]," that would sound to me that you don't want to be in the relationship. You're viewing things from opposite angles.

Could you come up with a SET statement that validates your feelings and his, yet contains the truth?

Turkish considering he lives in X and I live in Y, he doesn't see me taking off the ring because I usually make sure to put it back on before I get on FaceTime.

I will reread the SET lesson.

I have to say every time he says "I love you" I hear either "I need you" or "please love me" or "I need you to love me". Every time he calls me affectionate little nicknames ... .

[unicorn2014]

Remember... .less is more when communicating with pwBPD.

"Thank you for feeling like my mate."

"You are not my mate... .yet"

"Thanks for the support"

Short and to the point.

I suspect he is pushing to advance the r/s.

FF

FF, he proposed to me before he even met me. He already advanced the r/s 3 years ago. If I say to him you are not my mate yet he will blow up at me and go borderline, I guarantee it. I can not say that to him. Can you come up with something a little less confrontational? I guarantee you if I say that I will get called confrontational, combative, borderline.

[unicorn2014]

I immediately went to SET also.

The fundamental piece is getting to the point you can say your Truth.

Which means you have clarity on your Truth.

That's the work that no one can do except you.

Is there a lesson on getting to the point where you can say your truth?

[GaGrl]

I wish there was such a lesson. I spent years in therapy getting there, which made me about 70% ready to be a Non to a man with PTSD from a 30 year marriage to a uNPD/BPD.

I was invalidated as a child - by my parents/extended family, by my church, by my government (I am a child of the60s Civil Rights era). That required first finding my Truth, separate from those who would define me, then finding my Voice to express that Truth.

[formflier]

Remember... .less is more when communicating with pwBPD.

"Thank you for feeling like my mate."

"You are not my mate... .yet"

"Thanks for the support"

Short and to the point.

I suspect he is pushing to advance the r/s.

FF

FF, he proposed to me before he even met me. He already advanced the r/s 3 years ago. If I say to him you are not my mate yet he will blow up at me and go borderline, I guarantee it. I can not say that to him. Can you come up with something a little less confrontational? I guarantee you if I say that I will get called confrontational, combative, borderline.

What do you want to say to him?

If he says you are combative.,... end the conversation

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, this about how I feel when he tells me "I am your mate": not good. I didn't say anything to him when he told me that. I already stopped him from calling me his bride. He used to tell me he considered me to be his wife but I put a stop to that. I don't really have the energy to put up a boundary around the word mate right now so I'm letting it go for now.

[formflier]

OK... I think I understand now.  Don't make a big deal about it.

Be even in your delivery... .tell him what you want... .avoid telling him what not to do. 

Stay positive.

" please refer to me as your fiancée "

Talk about something else.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you FF, I think I would feel comfortable saying "yes, you are my fiancé" as a way of correcting him, that way I could affirm that I haven't called off the engagement yet but dont have to say yes you are my mate.

//

How about the part where his I love you sounds like I need you to love me?

[formflier]

Or... .just thank him for the affection.

You don't have to say I love you back.  He may not express himself well... .but acknowledge his efforts. 

Nudge them in a different direction if you want something different.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Or... .just thank him for the affection.

You don't have to say I love you back.  He may not express himself well... .but acknowledge his efforts. 

Nudge them in a different direction if you want something different.

FF

Yes, I don't mind saying I love you back, its the "I am your mate" I have a problem with.  It reminds me of the "Is that any way to talk to your partner"   argument that happened last Monday. Telling me "I am your mate" after I just got finished telling him that his wife telling him it was inappropriate for me to mail his parents invalidates me in the same way my father telling me I could have done something about my daughter getting sent home 5 weeks early from camp is not very comforting or reassuring to me. He likes to tell me he belongs to me, he's taken, he's off the market, he's mine. He claims that's why he was able to talk to me in the first place, because his wife didn't act like a wife. He said if she acted like a proper wife he never would have talked to me in the first place.


I read through the dysfunctional dance and self inflicted wounds lesson but I don't have anything to say on it right now.

[myself]

He's wanting to fit in. To be accepted. Acknowledged.

And you do too. And so do I. And so did my bride to be.

There's an openness to that we're all looking for.

Not the closed-in, owned, overly-controlled uncomfortables.

What you're asking is how do you get out of the corner?

Be true to yourself. Then: Whoever's with you is with you.

[unicorn2014]

Myself, may I ask what your story is. You mentioned a bride to be, and you have an ex romantic partner .

//

Every time I see my partner on FaceTime he always tells how much he enjoys being with me.

//

Our r/s consisted of 10-14 day visits every 2-3 months where he'd stay with me. Then when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed I put a stop to those visits. I haven't seen him since June. He was planning on moving out here last month. He claims he didn't know his divorce hadn't been filed.

//

//

That's where things are at today.

/

I don't know that I want to fit in, be accepted, be acknowledged . I already know my life is very different. Today my social worker was telling me she was astounded at my lack of family support. I think I've gotten used to not fitting in, being  accepted or acknowledged. I also know there is one place I fit in.

[formflier]

  its the "I am your mate" I have a problem with.  

So... .based on what you have learned... .what do you think is a healthy response to this statement.

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, I don't know because I just got another one in text about how he wishes he was laying next to me in bed. Let's see, it's Saturday morning, I was up past midnight taking care of my daughter who has a really bad case of poison oak. I still haven't seen his divorce decree, or escrow paper. He and I are living two very different realities.

/

One more catch : I live in privately managed  family apartments so if I have a guest for more then two weeks out of the year I need permission from the management. So every time he's laid next to me it's because I've had to ask permission. Some of the other people that live here  are married couples with children, I was married when I first moved my family here, and it's very shameful to me to be in the kind of relationship I am. It's very shameful to me that my partner thinks of me in this way and I have no idea how to respond to him when he texts that to me. Everything changed for me when I found out his divorce wasn't filed. It was bad enough I had to ask permission for a man who wasn't my husband to stay with me. There's no way on this earth I'm going to ask permission to have  a man who's still someone else's husband to stay with me. It's embarrassing to me as all get out.

I know he's not happy where he's at. I know he is really eager to leave his state. I don't share his fantasy.

I don't wish he was lying next to me on this quiet Saturday morning. I'm quite content to not have him in my apartment .

[formflier]

  He and I are living two very different realities.

Yes you are... .

Is that ok with you?  Sit with that for a while... .share your thoughts and feelings with us.

I'm going to challenge again... .when he says "I am your mate... ."  what is a healthy response based on what you have read and learned here.  Consciously ignore all the other silliness he has said/texted.  Just focus on that one statement... .you are thinking about the next time he says it... .the past is the past.

I'll help guide...

Do you want to inflame or calm a situation?

Do you want to agree or disagree with him? 

What to do with his emotions... .your emotions?

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, I appreciate what you're trying to do here but that was yesterday and this is today and I have a whole new problem: the texts I got this morning.

I haven't read or replied to them. I'm tempted to delete them. There's 5 and I assume they're all from him. I don't want to read them. I had asked him to prepare a couple of paragraphs for me covering what he's done since we last talked to move his divorce along as well copies of the documents I asked for. That's what I want to read when I wake up not some sentimental fluff about he wishes he were laying next to me.

I can tell you this: things got so bad with my partner that I wondered if I had made a mistake ending my marriage a decade ago. However when I found out my child's father was still using drugs that put a stop to that. He would be no less embarrassing to be in a relationship with .

I have no response for his wanting to lay next to me. I don't want him laying next to me. I'm perfectly content being alone with my daughter this morning.

I do not want to inflame the situation.

I do not want to agree with him.

I do not care how he feels. I don't think he should feel the way he does, I think it's immoral and unethical . I feel like he defrauded me to get close to me and now that the truth's come out I don't want to have anything to do with his desires until he cleans his mess up.

I'm not really interested in sharing with him how I feel because that makes me feel like a nag.

Perhaps I should deal with this "I wish I were laying next to you" in a new post about self inflicted wounds. I could definitely tie it into shame.

[formflier]

FF, I appreciate what you're trying to do here but that was yesterday and this is today and I have a whole new problem: the texts I got this morning.

Do you think this contributes to problems piling up and things not getting solved in your life?

You have choices.

You can only handle... what you can handle.

I'm getting the vibe that you don't want to deal with texts... .don't.

Set an alarm for Sunday at 3:47 pm... .deal with them then... .not a moment sooner.  Or pick another time more suiting.

Go back to the original problem you have... .(I am your mate... .)... .sort through a solution to that... .then move along... .

Otherwise... .I am your mate will be back... and you will not be ready.

 

You are in charge here... .you are in charge of you and what you do... .and what issues you solve.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Hi FF, I wish I were laying next to you is just as bad as I am your mate.

My solution is to ignore them.

There are other things I have to communicate about that have to do with my mental health and my daughters physical health.

He and I interact every day by text, phone and FaceTime. That's how's it been for 3 years, aside from the times he's stayed with me in my apartment.

Yes I have a whole pile of things he says to me that I'm not comfortable with.

His reality very much defines our relationship as it has from the beginning. Even his wife once described him to me as an emotional vampire. He on the other hand thought her emotions were superficial. He says he likes me because I'm intense like him but what he doesn't understand is I don't like being intense and I'm working really hard to change that.

I've read how pwBPD are like parasites that infect the emotions of their victims and take residence in them. I want to reverse that process. I don't want him occupying my inner world anymore.

[Grey Kitty]

You seem really confused on how to deal with this situation. Honestly, the situation is very messy and confusing. Here's what I see going on:

1. Today, he is pursuing you in this relationship, you are backing off, and you are afraid that if you are honest about backing away, he will have a dysregulated meltdown over it.

2. He says he is committed to a relationship with you, and acts like he's trying to move it forward, but was deceptive to you about still being married, and hasn't (thus far) been taking actions to divorce his wife.



You are (understandably) very uncomfortable about the second issue, and don't sound like you have resolved what you should do about it. The options that YOU can choose about it are stark:

A: Let him continue to have the benefits of a relationship with you while married to his wife.

B: End your relationship with him.

C: Back off from the relationship in some way while you wait for him to divorce.

D: Fight with him to get him to divorce.

I can't come up with other options that you have. Yes, HE could change the situation and may well do so, but you have to accept that it is your situation today and choose what option you want.

... .and all this ambiguity, and this really uncomfortable choice for you does a lot to cloud the question of how to deal with him.


One thing I will say is this--if today you don't feel like sharing your feelings with him, or even dealing with him today... .then don't. If you don't want to read the messages, it is OK to delete them.

Honor your own feelings about this first, before his. And enjoy being with your daughter  

[unicorn2014]

Thank you grey kitty, he did interview another lawyer which he didn't think was a fit and he did talk to a friend about her experience with divorce this week. We were supposed to meet on FaceTime this week to talk about it but then my daughter got poison oak and that got in the way. I asked him to prepare a couple of paragraphs for me along with some documents.

Until my daughter is recovered and goes back to school for a full day I won't have the privacy I need in my apartment to discuss this with him.

I think I choose the 4th option, fight with him to get him to deliver the divorce decree and escrow papers he said he found. Fight with him to get another divorce lawyer. For now.

I'm not so much confused as I am enraged.

I know how I feel.

I know if I share even one drop of how I feel he will dysregulate and I do not want that.

So I feel stuck.

So I'm not going to respond to the "I wish I were laying next to you."

That's the best I can come up with right now. That will allow me to eventually back off if that's what I need to do. If he dysregulates that will get in the way of me backing off. Me not responding to I am your mate or I wish I was lying next to you is my way of backing off. It's better then me rejecting I want to take you to bed which resulted in a fight. That's what happened the last time I tried to stand up to him when he told me something I didn't want to hear: a fight.

[unicorn2014]

Geez, I just got another email from him about missing the warmth of my body, I didn't even read it. He's really going all out today. I don't want to deal with that.

///

And guess what? Last week we got in a fight because he sent me an email on a Saturday morning.

So guess what? I have an opportunity to do this over. I don't want to read his text or his email. If I pick up the phone to call him he will ask me if I got his text or email.

I don't have a lot of options here.

Last Saturday he sent me an email about enjoying being a part of my family. That's what started my previous topic, why fight at all.

This is crazy.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a couple thoughts about what is going on with him pursuing you.

First, have you read about the push-pull games and dynamics? (I suspect there is something in the Lessons about that, but don't remember... .) pwBPD play those games / respond to those games.

You are pushing him away, and his natural reaction is to chase after you.

Second one:

You are correct that telling him more about how you feel about his staying married and pursuing you isn't going to sit well with him. I wouldn't recommend you say that.

Your feelings are real, though. The more you see him trying to contact you, the more pissed you seem to be getting today. (And the less you respond, the more he chases you!)

Try something different. Be honest and direct with him about your feelings in a small way, not a large way. What about sending a text to him like this:

I don't feel like talking to you now. Please give me space for the weekend.

You don't have to tell him why. You don't have to make it bigger than it is.

[Grey Kitty]

I think I choose the 4th option, fight with him to get him to deliver the divorce decree and escrow papers he said he found. Fight with him to get another divorce lawyer. For now.

[... .]

So I feel stuck.

Are you happy with how that choice is working?

I see feeling stuck as a natural consequence of that choice--because the resolution you want -- him getting a divorce -- isn't one you can make happen. You could fight for the next three years with him over it and he might still not be divorced.

[formflier]

isn't one you can make happen. 

Unicorn2014,

The greykitty is a wise one. 

There was (ok... still is) a dynamic in my relationship where I "make a deal" with my wife... .she gets hers first... .then what do you think happens when it's "my turn". 

This used to be enraging to me.  It's still bothersome.  I would pour lots of energy into "making her" comply.  Conflict resulted.

When I chose to change the dynamic... .when I chose to act and make choices about things that I control... .big changes happened.  And I was happier

Do you like Charlie Brown?  What happens when Lucy holds the football for Charlie? 

Do you see the "football" dynamic in your relationship?

FF