Enjoy inflicting pain?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Do you ever feel that your pwBPD actually really enjoys hurting you, or making you suffer? Is this a BPD trait, or could I be looking at more sociopathic behavior? I get that the diagnosis doesn't matter, but maybe how I respond to it, is? I mean, BPD can be treated, and the nons actions can make a difference, but is that also true with APD?

And BPD/NPD can be comorbid, so is APD a disorder that can be comorbid, as well? I've always thought that my husband is BPD/NPD, but I'm seriously starting to question because of the sick pleasure he seems to take in hurting me. He seems to feel alive, and BETTER, and superior when he's hurt me(or thinks he has). Everything is about him, and him getting what he wants(typical NPD trait). I've never known someone so into having to have his own way. He also seems to want to punish me, not just blame me. I think that is what the silent treatment is all about: control and punishment, and deep seated rage. It's really the pleasure he takes in hurting me that really has my antennae up... .

So, what I'm asking is: Do pwBPD actually at times(and for some of them-all the time), get pleasure and satisfaction out of hurting others? Is this a trait of BPD?

[Ceruleanblue]

Do you ever feel that your pwBPD actually really enjoys hurting you, or making you suffer? Is this a BPD trait, or could I be looking at more sociopathic behavior? I get that the diagnosis doesn't matter, but maybe how I respond to it, is? I mean, BPD can be treated, and the nons actions can make a difference, but is that also true with APD?

And BPD/NPD can be comorbid, so is APD a disorder that can be comorbid, as well? I've always thought that my husband is BPD/NPD, but I'm seriously starting to question because of the sick pleasure he seems to take in hurting me. He seems to feel alive, and BETTER, and superior when he's hurt me(or thinks he has). Everything is about him, and him getting what he wants(typical NPD trait). I've never known someone so into having to have his own way. He also seems to want to punish me, not just blame me. I think that is what the silent treatment is all about: control and punishment, and deep seated rage. It's really the pleasure he takes in hurting me that really has my antennae up... .

So, what I'm asking is: Do pwBPD actually at times(and for some of them-all the time), get pleasure and satisfaction out of hurting others? Is this a trait of BPD?

[unicorn2014]

CB, if I may, based on what I know of the BPD recovery community I would say no. Most people with BPD do not enjoy harming others. I would say that your husband probably has something else going on. I think enjoying harming others is definitely more of a narcissistic trait, beyond that we probably  go into territory beyond a personality disorder.

[Svarl1]

In my experience someone with BPD traits can be very verbally abusive and also physically violent.

Of course nobody knows for sure what goes on inside someone else's head, but they way I interpreted it, it seems when they are raging it's more out of compulsion than enjoyment. Kind of a holy duty to destroy the evil one (when he or she has split you into good and evil parts).

Pw BPD ARE capable of empathy,  but like anyone in a rage, it's not present at that particular time.

Also the obnoxious behaviours of a BPD person don't (to me) appear well planned in advance.  They seem more driven by emotion in the moment.

I'm really guessing here, but I would consider that if there is advance plotting of abuse, or the abuser seems calm while doing it, or seems to do it more from enjoyment than in a rage,  then perhaps consider it may be antisocial PD which is said to be common in criminals.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think I agree with Svarl1, that the thing to maybe look for is advanced planning.

My ex was a combo of uNPD/BPD/DPD.

Like you describe, my ex's go to reaction to everything was either reward or punishment. However, it was very much a reaction vs planned. I often was on the receiving end of ST.  Thinking back, I now see how many of "the good times" were actually "rewards" by him.  I had no idea at the time, as I thought we were just happy and he was being himself.

Because my ex mostly displayed NPD traits over the BPD ones, I had to keep that in mind when posting here and reading others stories.

Most folks here seem to have a partner that is attention seeking where abandonment fears guide their behaviors.  Whereas, my ex was driven by his need to either punish or reward. (Without the attention seeking part.  He did do push/pull... .but his ST could last weeks.  He did not care about attention in the way most pwBPD "need" it.  He was more driven by a persons perception of him.)

My ex is much like your H... .

He painted my son black... .his D all white.  If he could have it his way... .my son would have lived somewhere else.  The division and competition he created with his D and I... .in his head... .(it wasn't there)... .led to our break up as he made it all about his D... .vs wanting any type of partnership with an adult.  He spent all his waking breaths... .rewarding her.  And well... .as things progressed... .then he spent his time punishing me... .but trying to appear somewhat flawless.

I can't say my ex enjoyed punishing.  I don't think he was sadistic about it.  Rather, I believe it was his go to coping mechanism for all his feelings.  If someone "made him feel" good... .they got rewarded.  And if "they made him feel" bad... .they got punished.  (Usually by him withdrawing himself... .after all a narc believes so well of them self... .what worse punishment than to remove their wonderful presence?)

As things progressed... .his polarities increased.  He increased his D pedestal... .I had no idea it could go higher.  And he painted my son and I more and more black, until he had paranoid delusions.  I had no idea he had the potential for delusions.

DPD in wiki is described:

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

encouraging or allowing others to make most of one's important life decisions;

subordination of one's own needs to those of others on whom one is dependent, and undue compliance with their wishes;

unwillingness to make even reasonable demands on the people one depends on;

feeling uncomfortable or helpless when alone, because of exaggerated fears of inability to care for oneself;

preoccupation with fears of being abandoned by a person with whom one has a close relationship, and of being left to care for oneself;

limited capacity to make everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others.

Associated features may include perceiving oneself as helpless, incompetent, and lacking stamina.

Includes:

asthenic, inadequate, passive, and self-defeating personality (disorder)

My ex was dependent on his daughter.  He would allow her to control major adult decisions either directly or indirectly... .and subordinated his needs for her desires. It was sick.  He expected me to behave this way towards her as well... .or I'd be painted MORE black and perceived as a threat to them both.

So I wonder if what you are seeing is a mix of PD traits vs straight clear BPD?

Not sure what else to say... .Sorry CB!   

[enlighten me]

My view on this is to do with emotional immaturity.

A child can be quite spiteful to another child that they feel has wronged them. They can take pleasure in that child's pain.

We see at times this emotional immaturity coming through so it isn't beyond reason that they can take pleasure in others pain.

What I feel differs with this and ASPD is that a pwBPD inflicts pain as a reaction to a perceived wrong whereas a pwASPD does it because they enjoy it.

[hashtag_loyal]

My dBPDxgf enjoyed inflicting pain in others, but I don't think it was malicious. I think it helped her regulate her emotions. She liked to give deep-tissue massages because it was a way for her to physically inflict pain in others without actually hurting them. (She became a massage therapist for this very reason.)

She used to always bite me (hard!) and pinch me early on in our relationship. Not just during sex, but even if we were just cuddling or hanging out. A couple times she just leaned over and bit me when we were in a public place!

She is also a sexual sadist, and I think our sex life deteriorated when I made her stop hurting me.

I don't think any of this is deliberate, but most likely a reaction to the intense, deep-seated rage she has carried her entire life.

[LostGhost]

Mine quickly learned what my vulnerabilities and sensitiivities were. During idealization she would do everything to protect me from harm but during devaluation she would go out of her way to exploit my weak spots. She was also the reward/punishment variety as described above.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, and that is the crux of the matter. I don't know why he seems to enjoy hurting me, if it's due to imagined slights, or he just truly gets pleasure from it. My gut is telling me that it's that he gets pleasure from it. That he enjoys it. I think it makes him feel powerful, and superior, and he takes pleasure in it, mental and physical. This to me, seems like it could be APD, and it does at times seem plotted. It could also though be that he's just super emotionally immature.

I feel it get the passive aggressive stuff, and blame, and silent treatment as "punishment". In this behavior, I do see a lot of BPD traits. He's pretty much NPD, to the ninth degree. What's funny is he accuses me of it being "about me", but NOTHING is about me, unless I really assert myself, and most times, I haven't. I'm getting better at that, but it's still in my nature to compromise, for the sake of our marriage. The trouble is, I've done too much compromising, and I think now that I think things over first, he's quick to say it's "all about me". It's so not about me ever, that I actually find that laughable.

We just got back from Las Vegas, and I'd never been. In fact, I compromised and went, because I didn't really want to go because I knew how the trip would likely go. Sure enough, we did what HE wanted, even though he's been to Vegas twice, and all I asked to do was eat out Monday. Nope, he had other ideas, and I wasn't up to the battle. He set the day we ate somewhere nicer, and we did what he wanted. I'll never put myself in that situation again, or if I do, I'm not going to just let him run me over.

I just want to know how best to deal with all this. He's so all over the place, and it seems things will be fine, then he almost becomes someone else. This thing with his daughters plays on him constantly, and I feel he takes it out on me.

I'm not sure if he's DPD, per se, but he has allowed his adult girls to have WAY too much say in his/our lives, and he gets way too much of his happiness and self worth from just that relationships. It's not good to give anyone that much power, and they've become bullies, and mean angry girls.

On the plus side, BPDh did call about getting back in DBT. I didn't even ask him about it today, he just did it! It's things like that, that keep me hopeful.

[Ceruleanblue]

Also, I often feel I'm criticized, judged, blamed and "punished"(in his eyes), but I don't feel he ever rewards me in any way. I think if he thought of "rewarding" me, he'd feel like he's giving up way too much power. He's super vigilant about feeling "controlled", but that's so ironic because his grown girls are nothing if not uber controlling, as is BPDh himself. I don't even really complain about his huge control issues, because I can stand up to him as needed, and I see his control issues as him needing to control his world and from being insecure. At least that helps me cope with it.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex has what he calls a "strong sense of justice."  It is really more of an eye for an eye lust for revenge.  I don't think pwBPD see themselves as sadists.  They seem themselves as agents of morality.

[Beach_Babe]

Do you ever feel that your pwBPD actually really enjoys hurting you, or making you suffer? Is this a BPD trait, or could I be looking at more sociopathic behavior? I get that the diagnosis doesn't matter, but maybe how I respond to it, is? I mean, BPD can be treated, and the nons actions can make a difference, but is that also true with APD?

And BPD/NPD can be comorbid, so is APD a disorder that can be comorbid, as well? I've always thought that my husband is BPD/NPD, but I'm seriously starting to question because of the sick pleasure he seems to take in hurting me. He seems to feel alive, and BETTER, and superior when he's hurt me(or thinks he has). Everything is about him, and him getting what he wants(typical NPD trait). I've never known someone so into having to have his own way. He also seems to want to punish me, not just blame me. I think that is what the silent treatment is all about: control and punishment, and deep seated rage. It's really the pleasure he takes in hurting me that really has my antennae up... .

So, what I'm asking is: Do pwBPD actually at times(and for some of them-all the time), get pleasure and satisfaction out of hurting others? Is this a trait of BPD

What you are describing is NPD. Borderlines are typically not sadists.

[unicorn2014]

What you are describing is NPD. Borderlines are typically not sadists.

I agree with you. In the BPD recovery community people with BPD rarely present as mean, cruel, sadistic. People with BPD are vulnerable, want to be liked, sensitive to rejection and criticism. They wouldn't go out of their way to hurt someone they feel wronged them. That's something else. Axis 2 personality disorders can be similar, but there are differences.

[enlighten me]

I think we also have to bear in mid co morbidity.

My ex wife was a waif type and although not open about her vengeance she did do things to get at me without me knowing. I think she was BPD/HPD.

My exgf was quite spiteful and the queen type I would say that she was BPD/NPD and possibly a little ASPD.

If you can have something such as a pure BPD without anything else then I don't think they would cause pain unless they felt wronged.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I could see where he might think meting out "punishment" for what he views as being wronged(illogical as that is), but that definitely does not explain why he's always liked to hurt me during sex. I'm talking long before he started displaying traits of BPD/NPD. I asked him about it, he denied it, but when really pinned down he said that pleasure can be derived from pain. Uhm, not for me, and I explained this to him, over and over. Funny thing is though, HE doesn't want to be on the receiving end(and that's really not my thing anyways).

Also, it isn't just limited to sex. He just seems to have times when he enjoys hurting me emotionally. During these times, I don't get the sense that he thinks he's "getting even", or anything like that. I just feel he feels powerful, and in control, and has a strong need to punish and dominate. I do think he really truly gets pleasure from it. He says he doesn't like it when I cry, but I think he feels he's "won" if I do. I cry way less often in front of him now, because I felt like I was feeding the beast. I felt like he was getting some sick need met from knowing he'd hurt me. There are very few boundaries of things he won't say when he's angry. I wish I'd never shared with him that I'd been date raped once, as that was used as a weapon too.

Even now, when things have once again calmed down, it's hard to feel "safe" because I know this need or compulsion to hurt someone else to feed this sick need will crop up again. I just want to know how to stop feeding it, and I've tried the tools, but with very little effect. And if I manage to do that, will he just move on to another victim(maybe a coworker, as he's done in the past)?... .

[Daniell85]

NPD behaviors are intended to devalue. Things like hanging up on people when you don't like what they say, ignoring when you are hurting someone, displaying anger and entitlement when someone refuses to do what you say. Retaliating against your partner to hurt them for perceived "slights" because you only care about your own values or wants and are trying to force them on other people.

I think your partner is definitely taking some enjoyment in hurting you. He says the pain can be a turn on in sex. For who? You are the one being hurt. It's sadistic and cruel behavior to hurt you, then retaliate because you express you don't like it.

Some people are very much about control. Control of others. The silent treatments, withdrawing, refusing to negotiate, coming in with unspoken expectations and bullying when you don't get your needs met... .

I can't keep the two conditions completely apart. I see a lot of BPD ( who won't admit how much they ARE they problem)  stirring things up, getting feedback that they are and then running crying to perceived "authority figures" to triangulate while they sit there and gloat. I thinks it IS more than BPD. It has the addition of NPD or histrionic personality disorder.

It's like SEE, you didn't do what I want or you expressed a thought I found makes me MAD so I am going to retaliate and settle the score!

I always have thought your husband was more than BPD.

In practical terms, you deal with it by not feeding into it. Like you said, you don't cry much where he can see you. He gets a high off of it.

The problem I see, is you can keep from feeding into it, but like I have found for myself, where does that leave you?

Is this type of life one you are willing to lead for the rest of your life? What is the cost you are paying. Does it line up with your personal values of who you are and how you lead your own life?

I don't know. I have a lot of the same questions I am asking myself. It's a hard thing to try and process through and come to solid ground to work from.

[Lou12]

Hi Ceruleanblue

I've been reading a lot of your previous posts today as what you describe sounds very like my ex. Well actually we are back in contact (except I'm enduring another mind game) so I'm not exactly sure what we are. Anyways if it's any help to you my ex recently told me after 18 months that he's a sociopath (presume diagnosed but he didn't elaborate). Just something to bear in mind as their behaviours and motive behind the behaviour seem very alike. I personally still believe him to be BPD with NPD and sociopathic traits! X

[Svarl1]

Hi again,

Just another thought,  which might or might not help.

Regardless of the precise diagnosis, I think there can also be a 'social' aspect to behaviour. Like what we are unconsciously taught in our families of origin.

Somebody I know with undiagnosed BPD type behaviour came from a family that didn't seem to have normal, reciprocal, relationships between its members.

Basically, in this family, if you were not an alcoholic or an irresponsible slacker or a petty tyrant, then you were the one who was running around being treated like a slave and responsible for the others!

The message was: either accept a life of ****, or get the upper hand and become the tyrant. There was no example of mutual trust or reciprocity, and the children growing up may have struggled to learn those skills.

Better to seize power than to be on the receiving end.

I'm not saying that this in any way excuses your man's behaviour, just that it may be helpful in some way to know some of the drives behind it. Is the enjoyment of abuse, perhaps the relief of being the one on top rather than the one trodden down?

Do you know much about the family in which he grew up?

Did he have examples of mutually beneficial relationships and respectfully assertive negotiation?

[unicorn2014]

Cerulean Blue, I hope you don't mind my posting again.

My first husband has sociopathic traits and is a substance abuser.

My potential second husband has borderline traits and also some narcissism.

My father meets the criteria for NPD.

My brother is a very difficult person.

I have never known a normal or healthy man.

I made the mistake of getting into BDSM in the beginning with my current partner because I was curious. I quickly learned that was a mistake.

Since I have a lot of experience with these male personality types, I have to say again I do not think enjoying inflicting pain is a BPD trait, I think its probably more of a NPD trait.

I know you know the bigger question is what are you going to do about it. Since you are married to your person this is not an easy question to answer. I know you want to try to make your marriage work.

Do you think a therapeutic separation might be possible? You may have done one already, I do not remember.

I am sorry things are so hard for you.

[Ceruleanblue]

We did already do a separation. He left me,  and cheated. He'd been telling me for months he wanted to sleep with other women, and I also think he wanted his daughters, who hate me for no reason, back in his life. We didn't speak for almost two months. I was ALWAYS the one wanting to work things out, even though I knew he had this huge issue(BPD/NPB or possibly APD), yet I filed for divorce after he walked out, because he kept saying how "done" he was, and I was by then, so sick of begging him to work on things and stay. I mean, I was the one who deserved better treatment, and who was radically accepting his "issue", and I'd also been putting up with some physical abuse too, which I never should have done, and HE wanted out? I think he wanted someone who'd just let them abuse them, and would not object to it. He wanted someone who'd totally let them control them, do whatever he wanted, and get into whatever kinky stuff he wanted too. I think being "single" was a big dose of reality.

After we'd been separated close to two months, I broke down and called him, and we started talking. I actually called him to give him to tell him exactly how I really felt about how he'd treated me for four years. I think he was stunned. I'd gotten a lot of clarity, during the separation, and while I was willing to conceded some things(he still absolutely insisted I apologize to his daughters, which I did, and now regret, as it did NO GOOD, and I had done nothing to apologize FOR!), I was not willing so just say how he'd treated me was fine. He even agreed that how he'd treated me wasn't okay. He did want to get into BDSM, and so I researched, we tried it just between us, and he quickly got tired of it. It wasn't really my thing, as I don't like being hurt(duh), and he took it too far one time, and I wasn't quiet about saying that wasn't okay. I think he lost interest because I wasn't willing to actually be hurt. He wanted to go beyond play or pretend hurt I think, and when I wouldn't let him, he lost interest.

He still enjoys sex that hurts me, but I've set boundaries around that, and while I'm sure it upsets him, I'm not willing to be hurt during sex. Since we've reconciled, it's hard for me to even actually want sex with him, because the fact that he cheated(with a dominatrix... .how weird is that?), and because I fear he's going to hurt me. It's hard to be open, and trusting when you know someone gets off on hurting you. I've had fun, rough sex before, just not with BPDh, because I can't trust him that way, and because before it was mutual. BPDh is way too dominant and aggressive to have fun, rough sex with.

Someone asked about his family of origin. I'm really not too sure how that was. I just know a few facts. His mother died of breast cancer, not long before we met. His Dad I've heard had anger issues, and he definitely doesn't mind saying whatever is on his mind. Growing up, his Dad cheated on his Mom, and I just get the general idea that home life was dysfunctional. BPDh's therapist made it sound like BPDh always tried to keep the peace. I have trouble seeing that, as he's so aggressive now. Plus, his history of aggression goes way back. When he was 16 or 17, he got into a physical fight with his shop teacher that went from one end of the room to the other. What kind of rage does that take? He has a long history of road rage, and has been to anger management twice.

He'll agree that he has "issues", but he mostly just wants to blame me. He has had moments of clarity when he'll say things like "I thought all the issues in my past were because of my ex", meaning he sees now that they weren't. I mean, she stabbed him, hit him with a hammer, and did some crazy stuff, but I'm not doing that sort of crap, and he's still being abusive, blaming and mean. And what seems weird, is he stayed through all that craziness in his past marriage, but I'm not like that, and I'm trying for us both to be healthy, but he wanted to divorce me? None of this makes sense to me.

I think my family of origin was pretty healthy. Not perfect, but not dysfunctional, by any means. There wasn't abuse, and we are a loyal bunch. Not enmeshed, nor controlling. Maybe if I'd been raised in chaos, some of this would be easier for me to understand?

Just this last weekend, he was clearly dysregulated again, but now, after calling his daughter, he's back to being "nice". Way, way too much of his emotional healthy and behaviors are tied up with his adult kids. I think it was bothering him that she'd promised to start allowing me to come with him when he visits her, and that we'd all do dinner, but she'd blown him off, and it hadn't happened. He won't come out and say he's disappointed, but I think he thinks about it way more than he lets on, and I get the brunt of his anger over it. He can't or would never address it with them, so he projects onto ME. What's sad, is I actually think that BPDh is trying harder to be healthy than his kids are.


I'm just glad that for now, he's in a good phase. Not telling how long that will last though.

[unicorn2014]

After we'd been separated close to two months, I broke down and called him, and we started talking. I actually called him to give him to tell him exactly how I really felt about how he'd treated me for four years. I think he was stunned. I'd gotten a lot of clarity, during the separation, and while I was willing to conceded some things(he still absolutely insisted I apologize to his daughters, which I did, and now regret, as it did NO GOOD, and I had done nothing to apologize FOR!), I was not willing so just say how he'd treated me was fine. He even agreed that how he'd treated me wasn't okay. He did want to get into BDSM, and so I researched, we tried it just between us, and he quickly got tired of it. It wasn't really my thing, as I don't like being hurt(duh), and he took it too far one time, and I wasn't quiet about saying that wasn't okay. I think he lost interest because I wasn't willing to actually be hurt. He wanted to go beyond play or pretend hurt I think, and when I wouldn't let him, he lost interest.

Hi CB,

Actual BDSM is not pretend hurt, a real sadist enjoys really hurting a real masochist who really enjoys really being hurt. The difference is its consensual. There are some acronyms in the BDSM community, SSC is one: safe, sane, consensual.  A personality disorder eliminates the sane portion. If you are truly interested to learn more there is a website for people in the kink community called fet life and there is a forum on that site for people with BPD.

I have to say the more you describe your husband, the more he sounds NPD.

I think a lot of people on this site confuse NPD and BPD and they are two very different disorders although they are both in Cluster B. People with BPD tend to be a lot weaker then people with NPD.

He still enjoys sex that hurts me, but I've set boundaries around that, and while I'm sure it upsets him, I'm not willing to be hurt during sex. Since we've reconciled, it's hard for me to even actually want sex with him, because the fact that he cheated(with a dominatrix... .how weird is that?), and because I fear he's going to hurt me. It's hard to be open, and trusting when you know someone gets off on hurting you. I've had fun, rough sex before, just not with BPDh, because I can't trust him that way, and because before it was mutual. BPDh is way too dominant and aggressive to have fun, rough sex with.

I would ask that you think on this. Since marriage is a sexual relationship it is important that the two partners be sexually compatible. If your husband is truly a sadist, or a masochist, he will not find normal sex satisfying (or vanilla as its called in the kink community) and he will cheat.

[Samuel S.]

Your BPDh is very controlling, selfish, and sadistic. It is either his way or no way. When he sees that he can get the upper hand, he will take it. He is not being empathetic to you whatsoever. A BPD like yours and like mine only wants what they want without any regard to others around them in their immediate life. They can laugh at us, because they are crying inside. Yes, they feel inferior so that they can act out in toxic ways. I am reminded of the movie "Straw Dogs" dealing with a very nice couple who comes across people who cannot stand nice people. So, they take out their aggressions on this very nice couple. It is the same with us nonBPDs. No matter what their rationalizations for being that way or our rationalizations for their behavior, they are only into hurting us when they see they can hurt us. My BPDw has done this frequently. We can talk til we are blue in the face, but they won't really change. When I told mine how she really hurt me, she gave a meek apology. OnceConfused on this website said that apologies are not enough. They need to apologize, to ask for forgiveness of us, and to promise not to do it again. Again, mine gave a meek apology, but has never asked for forgiveness and has never promised to do it again. It has to come from them, and they won't, because they hurt so much. We as nonBPDs are hurting due to their hurt. The only way to make them possibly, and I stress possibly, realize that the depth of their illness is by having us nonBPDs leaving and going NC completely. Then again, they probably will do the same thing to others, namely to gain someone else's empathy only to hurt them as well.

[Ceruleanblue]

Unicorn:

I've just decided that the whole BPSM thing is not for me. I was willing to do it to satisfy him, and I only liked the "pretend" factor of it. I'm not into being hurt, or hurting others. I personally get no satisfaction, or pleasure from that. What's funny is that I'd always thought of our sex life as "vanilla", not because it wasn't kinky enough, but because he's sort of a one trick pony, and because I can't trust him enough to be too adventurous. Also, I knew about having a "safe word", but that wasn't something that really interested him, as his goal is actually to inflict pain. I was really glad that he lost interest in it so fast, because otherwise I'd have had to set a huge boundary around it.

I actually think since I was willing to "try" it, or go along, it lost it's appeal. I mean, even before he mentioned the BDSM when we were separated(I would not have married him had I known we were this incompatible, I'd noticed that he liked to hurt me during sex. Once is was all out there, and I agreed to try, it lost it's appeal. I think he likes feeling I have zero control, and he has ALL the control.

Sam:

I really liked the movie Straw Dogs. You are right, BPD and NPD is reminiscent of the movie. BPDh and I have gone round and round on the whole apology thing. I've heard he and his ex did too, and he was told when they were in therapy, that apologizing means NOTHING, if you are just going to keep having the same toxic behaviors. I've come to feel that many of his apologies(when he deigns to apologize), are really more a form of "shut up and forget I did that", than an actual apology. When I apologize to him, he gets the three or four steps that a true apology is made of, and I say that I'll do my best to not do it again(or work my issue). That is key! If you get an apology, with no intention of  them not doing it again, why bother?

At times I feel we are so close to having a happy life, but then he dysregulates, starts blaming, starts feeling down, and taking crap out on me. It's a huge mindset issue, the negativity, and skewed thinking. I feel he could choose to feel better, and be more accountable, but he chooses not to. I know he'll likely have this his whole life, and it won't ever be easy, but I do think he could choose to do "some" better. I do think there is somewhat of a choice involved, as some with BPD are more accountable, and live the ongoing battle of trying to do better.

And I agree that when they are "done", they just suck someone else in, and repeat the pattern of playing off their empathy, while creating chaos all around them. So sad.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn:

I've just decided that the whole BPSM thing is not for me. I was willing to do it to satisfy him, and I only liked the "pretend" factor of it. I'm not into being hurt, or hurting others. I personally get no satisfaction, or pleasure from that. What's funny is that I'd always thought of our sex life as "vanilla", not because it wasn't kinky enough, but because he's sort of a one trick pony, and because I can't trust him enough to be too adventurous. Also, I knew about having a "safe word", but that wasn't something that really interested him, as his goal is actually to inflict pain. I was really glad that he lost interest in it so fast, because otherwise I'd have had to set a huge boundary around it.

There is such a thing as consensual non consent but to be honest your husband's sexual issues don't sound like BDSM, they sound like pathology.

I actually think since I was willing to "try" it, or go along, it lost it's appeal. I mean, even before he mentioned the BDSM when we were separated(I would not have married him had I known we were this incompatible, I'd noticed that he liked to hurt me during sex. Once is was all out there, and I agreed to try, it lost it's appeal. I think he likes feeling I have zero control, and he has ALL the control.

BDSM is all about consent, without that consent it is abuse. So what you are talking about in actuality is sexual abuse within your marriage.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, he did have my consent when we tried the BDSM on a few occasions, but the issue is that the last time we tried it, he took it too far. I addressed it, saying I don't enjoy actual pain, and I think that is when he lost interest. I trusted him, and I view it as he took advantage of my trust. I wasn't hurt badly, by any means, but heck, I don't want sex, or foreplay to be uncomfortable or to hurt in any way. He certainly isn't into being hurt, himself, and I sort of consider him a baby about his own physical aches at times.

I'm glad it hasn't been an issue lately with us, but it's just disturbing because I know it's still something he enjoys. Plus, it's easier to put an end to painful sex with a boundary than it is the meting out of emotional pain he dishes out at times. I think the silent treatment is meant to punish. I think a lot of the passive aggressive things he does is meant to punish me. I've never met anyone who seems to play games with my emotions the way he does.

I just wonder if the more he loses the ability to hurt me, if he'll look elsewhere... .

[Samuel S.]

Your BPDh enjoys giving pain. In fact, he thrives on it. The very fact that you put an end to the sexual pain you suffered says a lot about you and holding up to your boundary. For that, I congratulate you! Yes, you are right that he is a baby, because he cannot inflict physical pain on you anymore. So, he pouts and gives you the silent treatment. That is okay, because he is only starting to realize that you exist. And yes, you are right again. Due to his incessant need to inflict pain and due to the fact you aren't going to take it anymore, he very well likely seek someone else to live out his selfish fantasy, only to find out that sooner or later, that person will get fed up due to being used as well.

While he is doing all of that, it is best that you continue with a T in order to take care of yourself. OnceConfused recommended a book called something like The Five Love Languages by Dr. Gary Chapman. I just started to read it recently, and it is good. You may wish to get it.

Take care, my friend! I only wish life were easier for us nonBPDs! 

[Ceruleanblue]

Wow, do I wish life were easier for all of us too! I mean, marriage in and of itself can be challenging, but throw a PD into the mix, and it's a tough row to hoe. It's funny, because he now acts like he doesn't care about BDSM, and I once mentioned breaking out a few "toys"(not anything BDSM), because I know HE likes the "toys", and he wasn't interested in that either. It's like he's so all or nothing. Our MC said that once about BPDh's adult kids, but BPDh is like that too. If they can't get 100% their own way, they refuse to play.

I've often said of BPDh that he "takes his marbles, and goes home". Not to his face of course. He just wants what he wants, and I think lots of times when he gets it, it isn't the be all and end all he thought it would be. He's always looking for his happiness in the wrong places. He thought his motorcycle would make him so happy. He says it does, but then why is he so miserable? I've kindly had discussions with him, which I know are a waste of time, trying to explain to him that while "things" can contribute to our happiness, they can't BE our happiness. That it is a mindset, and has to come from within... .all that.

BPDh has read the Five Love Languages, and had in fact just read it when we'd first started dating. He was looking for why his first marriage of 24 years ended. Along with assigning all the blame on her. Not that she didn't deserve a ton of it. He has physical scars to prove it. I think we both know each others love languages, and in fact I was just talking to him about mine last night. He knows it, but he's too selfish to do it on any sort of regular basis. In fact, if I didn't remind him, he'd never do it at all. Which sort of negates it for me. Me on the other hand, I'm always trying to meet his, and keep his love tank full.

I have to admit though that right now, because he is so purposely ignoring my two main love languages(small gifts and words of affirmation), I'm not meeting ONE of his as often, which his is physical touch. I am always super affectionate, but I have to admit the sex sort of becomes less frequent when I know he's deliberately withholding meeting my love language. Again, it's all about power and control. I'm sure the feels that by meeting my needs, he's losing control, and doing what I ask. He hates being asked anything.

There is just too huge an imbalance of any sort of equality in our marriage. I'm willing to do more, compromise more, and give huge allowances of grace due to his "issues', but too far is too far. He is not going to usurp total control of me, and use me like a puppet. Not any more.

[unicorn2014]

Well, he did have my consent when we tried the BDSM on a few occasions, but the issue is that the last time we tried it, he took it too far. I addressed it, saying I don't enjoy actual pain, and I think that is when he lost interest. I trusted him, and I view it as he took advantage of my trust. I wasn't hurt badly, by any means, but heck, I don't want sex, or foreplay to be uncomfortable or to hurt in any way. He certainly isn't into being hurt, himself, and I sort of consider him a baby about his own physical aches at times.

I'm glad it hasn't been an issue lately with us, but it's just disturbing because I know it's still something he enjoys. Plus, it's easier to put an end to painful sex with a boundary than it is the meting out of emotional pain he dishes out at times. I think the silent treatment is meant to punish. I think a lot of the passive aggressive things he does is meant to punish me. I've never met anyone who seems to play games with my emotions the way he does.

I just wonder if the more he loses the ability to hurt me, if he'll look elsewhere... .

It sounds like your husband is a true sadist, and you are worried if he can't hurt you he'll look for someone else to hurt.

Have you done the pros and cons of staying and leaving? Its a dbt technique  to look at the pros and cons of taking and not taking an action.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I've done that, and as things stand, I plan on staying. If he goes back to how he was prior to last year, I'll have to look at leaving. He seems to be somewhat trying, and I'm hoping once he gets back in DBT, things will get some better. Of course, last time he was in, they got worse for a while. It's just sad that his therapist got let go, but I guess I can be glad too, because I sort of had doubts about what he was getting out of it. I got the distinct impression that all he talked about in his DBT was ME, instead of focusing on himself, or his anger.

I'm really getting a lot out of my therapy, and I'm feeling like I'm in a pretty good place right now. Boundaries are getting some easier, and my relationship with everyone important to me is really good. I'd like things to be better with BPDh's three adult daughters, but I realize I've done all I can do to foster reconciliation.

Of course, just when I think things are staying status quo, or actually getting better, he'll dysregulated, or go off the deep end. I think I'm doing better at keeping an even keel during those times though. And I definitely am taking better care of ME this time around.

[wundress]

I thought it was just me who had wondered about this... .

Early in our relationship my pwBPD used to be physically hurtful "by accident" but then laugh at me or belittle me if I got upset. For instance she banged into me and the hot mug of tea I had spilled on my legs and really hurt me. I pointed out what she had done and she laughed and told me not to be a baby!

She has also done things like taunted a dog by kicking a ball on one side of the window whilst the fog was going crazy on the other side because it was ball obsessed. She did  that for about half an hour until I stopped her and then she belittled me and said it was the dog's fault!

Lately she has seemed quite sadistic as her wellbeing has deteriorated.

[Beach_Babe]

Mine laughed and mocked me for having a seizure. Called me a "baby" for crying afterward and asking for comfort. Another time I tried to feed the poor animal he locked in a cage and he knocked me to the ground. Said I deserved it for implying I was somehow better than him for remembering to feed it. Other times he'd laugh while hitting me or was clearly caused pain from his actions. I do not believe this was BPD.