My old flame won't get the message

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Dear All,

The old flame (D) that I posted about at the beginning of September, is still not getting the message:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=282997.msg12672622#msg12672622


I have been in a great deal of conflict about this relationship over the last 2 months. I've met him once for coffee since that series of posts. It was nice but I had immediate second thoughts. And I have spoken to him on the phone (about issues that don't work between us), but he thinks I'm trying to talk them through with him so we can make things work rather than break up with him. I've sent him a number of texts and emails telling him it's over but he carries on as normal. He says I'm changing my mind daily, but it's more that I can't maintain my resolve when he keeps contacting me. I have avoided meeting up with him, because he just takes it as an opportunity to try and get me to be affectionate towards him. And, I can't bring myself to say the words: 'I don't want to see you again' because it will upset me and he'll just use my upset as a way to wheedle himself back in, so it will be completely counterproductive.


Here's his latest email which he sent after he turned up unexpected at my place of work and I had a long conversation with him during which I told him for the umpteenth time to stop touching me:

"i have taken on board what you said about touch and things could be different, i'm sure.

i am still attracted to you, but unless i feel some desire coming from you, and you expressing that you desire me,  or love me, the sparks are not going to fly. you've so destabilized my desire to express affection for you by what you've said recently about abuse /feeling creeped out that i need a lot of encouragement .

i was really looking forward to seeing you on your birthday and over christmas and now theres that low grade feeling of dread in my guts.

i still want to talk.

please ring me tonight after 8pm."


I sent this in return:

"There's quite enough sparks flying already as far as I'm concerned - all dysfunctional ones.

I think it's time we listened to the bad feelings that we have when we are around each other. Those bad feelings are telling us something. You are feeling dread. I feel anxiety that also borders on dread too. When I think of the prospect of going back to this relationship, I get a sinking feeling because I know that I really want someone else. If this were a relationship waiting to blossom rather than one that has fallen apart, I am sure neither of us would be feeling this way. We feel this way because we are in pain not in love. Let's stop hurting each other.

So, to be clear:

I don't want to talk. I don't think it will make one jot of difference. I'm not going to change my mind. The damage has been done and it can't be undone.

I don't want to express my desire for you because your desire for me needs reactivating. I no longer want a sexual relationship with you. I want you to direct your desire elsewhere.

I don't want to tell you I love you to encourage you to feel love for me again. I think it's better if we cut our losses at this point rather than continue on a path that's just going to cause us both further pain.

I don't want to try to coax you into desiring or loving me. That was what was so humiliating the first time around. S [i.e. my BPDxbf] changed me because he gave me the experience of being with someone who desired, loved and wanted me just as I was. He gave me my self-esteem as a woman. Now I have had that experience, I don't want to go back. When I was with S, I felt good about myself. When I was with you, I felt fat, frumpy and undesirable and what you said only confirmed that you agreed with me.

Finally, I don't want to encourage you. I want you to leave me alone to heal.


D, I know it's sad but it's better, by far, if we move on. Don't keep putting me in a position where I have to re-iterate that it's over.

There is someone out there for you, D. It's pointless trying to make this work just because you haven't got anyone else in your life right now. If you directed the effort you're expending in trying to revive this relationship into creating opportunities that could lead to a new one, you would soon have an enthusiastic girlfriend rather than one who is trying to avoid you because really, she wants out. I know I'm safe for you. It doesn't really matter whether I reject you or not because I'm not that attractive, not that desirable and you don't really love me. I'm no threat to you. I know it's scarier to risk rejection by someone you find very attractive and whom you feel a great deal for, but that's the only way you will ever find happiness... .are you ever going to take the risk?

It's time to grieve over what was but can no longer be.

Take care of yourself. "




It's very fair to say that my actions towards him have been unpredictable. However, I am surprised at his tenacity since I must have told him it's over by text or email upwards of ten times in the past two months and only met up with him twice. Any 'normal' man would have got the message by now.

I think that my old flame has NPD traits though he's not severe enough to warrant the diagnosis. I don't think he has BPD because he doesn't seem to have any abandonment fear, quite the opposite in fact.


How do I get rid of him? Your comments and suggestions would be most welcome.

Lifewriter x

[Lifewriter16]

Dear All,

The old flame (D) that I posted about at the beginning of September, is still not getting the message:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=282997.msg12672622#msg12672622


I have been in a great deal of conflict about this relationship over the last 2 months. I've met him once for coffee since that series of posts. It was nice but I had immediate second thoughts. And I have spoken to him on the phone (about issues that don't work between us), but he thinks I'm trying to talk them through with him so we can make things work rather than break up with him. I've sent him a number of texts and emails telling him it's over but he carries on as normal. He says I'm changing my mind daily, but it's more that I can't maintain my resolve when he keeps contacting me. I have avoided meeting up with him, because he just takes it as an opportunity to try and get me to be affectionate towards him. And, I can't bring myself to say the words: 'I don't want to see you again' because it will upset me and he'll just use my upset as a way to wheedle himself back in, so it will be completely counterproductive.


Here's his latest email which he sent after he turned up unexpected at my place of work and I had a long conversation with him during which I told him for the umpteenth time to stop touching me:

"i have taken on board what you said about touch and things could be different, i'm sure.

i am still attracted to you, but unless i feel some desire coming from you, and you expressing that you desire me,  or love me, the sparks are not going to fly. you've so destabilized my desire to express affection for you by what you've said recently about abuse /feeling creeped out that i need a lot of encouragement .

i was really looking forward to seeing you on your birthday and over christmas and now theres that low grade feeling of dread in my guts.

i still want to talk.

please ring me tonight after 8pm."


I sent this in return:

"There's quite enough sparks flying already as far as I'm concerned - all dysfunctional ones.

I think it's time we listened to the bad feelings that we have when we are around each other. Those bad feelings are telling us something. You are feeling dread. I feel anxiety that also borders on dread too. When I think of the prospect of going back to this relationship, I get a sinking feeling because I know that I really want someone else. If this were a relationship waiting to blossom rather than one that has fallen apart, I am sure neither of us would be feeling this way. We feel this way because we are in pain not in love. Let's stop hurting each other.

So, to be clear:

I don't want to talk. I don't think it will make one jot of difference. I'm not going to change my mind. The damage has been done and it can't be undone.

I don't want to express my desire for you because your desire for me needs reactivating. I no longer want a sexual relationship with you. I want you to direct your desire elsewhere.

I don't want to tell you I love you to encourage you to feel love for me again. I think it's better if we cut our losses at this point rather than continue on a path that's just going to cause us both further pain.

I don't want to try to coax you into desiring or loving me. That was what was so humiliating the first time around. S [i.e. my BPDxbf] changed me because he gave me the experience of being with someone who desired, loved and wanted me just as I was. He gave me my self-esteem as a woman. Now I have had that experience, I don't want to go back. When I was with S, I felt good about myself. When I was with you, I felt fat, frumpy and undesirable and what you said only confirmed that you agreed with me.

Finally, I don't want to encourage you. I want you to leave me alone to heal.


D, I know it's sad but it's better, by far, if we move on. Don't keep putting me in a position where I have to re-iterate that it's over.

There is someone out there for you, D. It's pointless trying to make this work just because you haven't got anyone else in your life right now. If you directed the effort you're expending in trying to revive this relationship into creating opportunities that could lead to a new one, you would soon have an enthusiastic girlfriend rather than one who is trying to avoid you because really, she wants out. I know I'm safe for you. It doesn't really matter whether I reject you or not because I'm not that attractive, not that desirable and you don't really love me. I'm no threat to you. I know it's scarier to risk rejection by someone you find very attractive and whom you feel a great deal for, but that's the only way you will ever find happiness... .are you ever going to take the risk?

It's time to grieve over what was but can no longer be.

Take care of yourself. "




It's very fair to say that my actions towards him have been unpredictable. However, I am surprised at his tenacity since I must have told him it's over by text or email upwards of ten times in the past two months and only met up with him twice. Any 'normal' man would have got the message by now.

I think that my old flame has NPD traits though he's not severe enough to warrant the diagnosis. I don't think he has BPD because he doesn't seem to have any abandonment fear, quite the opposite in fact.


How do I get rid of him? Your comments and suggestions would be most welcome.

Lifewriter x

[Sunfl0wer]

Your reply to get him to leave you alone is so thoughtful and in depth.  It demonstrates some commitment to him.  You were committed enough and appear to have worked hard to think it through so clearly to give him a nice reply.

I think your action... .of being invested in that letter... .can discount your message... .of wanting contact to end.  As you are essentially participating in engaging with him.

Can you shorten this truth to only three sentences or less?

I apologize for any mixed messages I may have sent in the past.  I would like to be very clear: I do not wish to talk with you any longer.  Please stop contacting me.

Edit:  I think as long as he is able to draw out conversations from you... .he is hearing that you are willing to engage.  If you keep it short and sweet... .you may get your message heard... .even if you have to resend it five more times... .just the same way it is... .a resend.  I think it is called BIF around here? (Brief informative, friendly?)

[Lifewriter16]

Thanks, Sunfl0wer.

He replied to my email, so I have sent a simple reply. I do want to honour that he was important to me. I don't want to cause unnecessary pain but I do want to move on:


​"I also feel blessed to have had you in my life, but I want to move on now.

Take care of yourself."


I'm inclined to just ignore all emails and phone calls from now on. He has lost his mobile phone so he can't text me. The sticking point will be if he turns up at my place of work again. I've told them that I am having a problem with him and they are primed on what to do, should it happen... .

I need to be away from him so I can resolve the feelings that are still sloshing around my system. The conflicting emotions have been stopping me from giving a resolute response and stopping me from moving forward without him. It's been a catch-22 situation.

I think I can handle it now.

Lifewriter x

[Lucky Jim]

I think as long as he is able to draw out conversations from you... .he is hearing that you are willing to engage.  If you keep it short and sweet... .you may get your message heard... .even if you have to resend it five more times... .just the same way it is... .a resend.  I think it is called BIF around here? (Brief informative, friendly?)

Hey Lifewriter, I agree w/Sunflower: don't engage.  I like the last message you sent, which was short and sweet.  Next time, if there is a next time, you might want to be even firmer and more direct.  Don't sugarcoat it.  Tell him it's over and you will neither read nor respond to future messages from him.  You get the idea.

LuckyJim

[cloudten]

It is my opinion that everything you have said is completely perfect.

Your last response is great... .you complimented him a little and then turned him down. Perfect. You kept your dignity and composure, and respected him at the same time (even if he may not deserve it).

It sounds like you have covered your bases. I am proud of you!

Keep on standing up for what you want and desire!

[Lifewriter16]

Thanks everyone.

The irony is that I will miss him, but I think I deserve better... .

Love

Lifewriter

[cloudten]

i KNOW you deserve better.

With the extreme exception of my BPD, I refuse to "go back" to an ex. If it didn't work the first time, it will never work the second or third time. Nothing changes. LOL.

Of course I am never going back to my BPD, but he is the only person I have ever gone back to.

[C.Stein]

I refuse to "go back" to an ex. If it didn't work the first time, it will never work the second or third time. Nothing changes. LOL.

I'm not sure I agree.  I would like to believe people are capable of real sustainable positive change.  It does take a lot of work to achieve that.  Going back to the ex though depends entirely on the reasons why it didn't work to begin with.  If an ex had demonstrated a real change for the better, particularly in areas where the old relationship failed, then it may not fail the second time.  Food for thought?

[Grey Kitty]

The irony is that I will miss him, but I think I deserve better... .

I KNOW I am worth better than my wife can give me. (We are separated, and moving toward divorce)

I often miss having companionship that I got from her.

Sometimes I miss her too.

There isn't any irony, or even a conflict between these things. But it is hard to hold them both in my head and heart at the same time.

[cloudten]

I refuse to "go back" to an ex. If it didn't work the first time, it will never work the second or third time. Nothing changes. LOL.

I'm not sure I agree.  I would like to believe people are capable of real sustainable positive change.  It does take a lot of work to achieve that.  Going back to the ex though depends entirely on the reasons why it didn't work to begin with.  If an ex had demonstrated a real change for the better, particularly in areas where the old relationship failed, then it may not fail the second time.  Food for thought?

Haha... .maybe you just aren't a cynical as I am (yet).  After countless recycles... .sometimes after he made seemingly huge strides in therapy and what-not... .I am not so hopeful anymore.

I think people can be capable of real sustainable positive change. I am hoping and praying that is what I am doing with me and my life right now. But if I were to change as much as I am aiming for... .then the person I become would probably fit even less with the person I would have had trouble with before. 

The older and more experienced I become in relationships- the less I have hope that people actually change. I think most people are like stretched out rubberbands... .they can change when pulled and build up kinetic energy, but without sustainable "force", people have a tendency to return back to their original shape. Just my bitter old lady thoughts.

I do have to say that I entertained the idea of returning to an old flame from high school. We talked and laughed and met up a few times... .but deep down I could see he was the same just older with some gray hairs. He said I was different... .maybe that's true. But he wasn't different.

[C.Stein]

Some people never have the strength to look inward and recognize parts of themselves they dislike.  Even if you can do that making the effort to actually change (personal growth) can be daunting.   Of course there are those who think nothing is wrong with them, will never look inward, and are quite simply incapable of change.  That said, having become markedly more cynical with age as well, I still want to believe people are capable of change ... .at any age.  It is definitely harder the older you get. 

[Grey Kitty]

The older and more experienced I become in relationships- the less I have hope that people actually change. I think most people are like stretched out rubberbands... .they can change when pulled and build up kinetic energy, but without sustainable "force", people have a tendency to return back to their original shape. Just my bitter old lady thoughts.

I kinda figure other people are "just like me" in regard to significant changes.

What do I mean here?

• I can spend years, even decades wanting to change/wishing I was different/trying to change... .and snap back into the original shape.



• It takes something really powerful to get me motivated to make significant changes. My two biggest changes involved some pretty traumatic crap in my marriage as a motivator.



• I can find the motivation AND the tools I need to make the change, and do it. When everything falls together and clicks, I realize I have changed.

As of today, I can think of two such things, and I'm closing in on a third one, or another phase of the second one.

The first one was when I was truly DONE with accepting verbal/emotional abuse. And I'm DONE. I'll never put up with that again, and I have absolutely no doubt about that. (I even stayed married while stopping the all the direct abuse from my wife. I'm very proud of that accomplishment.)

The second was a little more vague, but the short version is believing that I'm worth more in a relationship than my wife was offering me... .I was still being treated poorly in ways that weren't direct/overt abuse.

The one I'm working on now, which may be separate from or may be more a part of the second is truly believing in my own worth... .I don't feel like I've quite cracked that one, and thus cannot speak to it as clearly.

All this, at an age which is statistically just a bit past half my lifespan. This kind of change *IS* possible, but that doesn't make it easy or common.

So while it is possible for an old flame to change... .and I like to allow people the space to do so... .that doesn't mean I expect it.