I'm having some trouble lately with the emphasis on looking at ourselves

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

I don't think emphasizing personal reflection is about assigning blame within the relationship, but rather about self-awareness and empowerment. My dBPDxgf inflicted all the abuse and destroyed the relationship by herself (hell, she even admits that) but I can still gain a lot of understanding, power and healing by reviewing my own behavior within the r/s.

For instance, I used to always love it when she was needy and would send an "I miss you" text out of the blue. I would build self-esteem by receiving such needy gestures, and would become depressed when I didn't receive them. Why is that? Why did I have this "need" to be needed? This has nothing at all to do with my ex and her actions, but everything to do with me and my emotional health.

It is one area I will need to address in order to find future happiness, and I would not have realized it without first looking at myself and how I behaved within my BPD r/s.

I know this is 2 days old but I wanted to response to this and to the OP. What I have learned through reading BPD, NPD and Narcissism books is that the attraction we have for these people is stemmed from our childhood.  That could have been physically or/and mentally abuse and by having NPD, BPD parents sometimes without us knowing. I do wonder if my parents were Narcissistic (My Dad being the codependent one) If we had been raised in a healthy upbringing (I am not sure what Healthy really is to be honest) we would notice right away and recognized some of the symptoms or traits of BPD, NPD people. I knew that my ex liked to get drunk and be obnoxious and did a lot of things a normal person would not do. However, I ignored it because I was attracted to her looks, charisma, and for apparently her being happy all the time. She was the opposite of who I am. I am somewhat introverted and she made me feel "alive”!

I have learned that because of the way my parents raised me I became codependent without me knowing. I was and still am a pleaser that wants to do good things for other and make everyone else happy and not caring for my own needs and happiness.  I am reading how to stop from pleasing others all the time.  I don't know about your upbringing but I know for a fact that when I was growing up my mother was the strict parent in contrast to my father being the laid back guy always defending us when my mother beat us.  

What I have learned is that I remolded my feelings to appease my mother from her beating us up. To a degree it’s shocking to learn this at 43 but I have to fix this or I will be in this type of relationships for the rest of my life.  I am not sure if I can post this here ! I don't know if here or somewhere else someone suggested to read the book "The Human Magnet Syndrome" by Ross Rosenberg (Admins if I can't post that here please delete).  This book is fantastic. I recommend it.

[hashtag_loyal]

I have learned that because of the way my parents raised me I became codependent without me knowing. I was and still am a pleaser that wants to do good things for other and make everyone else happy and not caring for my own needs and happiness.  I am reading how to stop from pleasing others all the time.  I don't know about your upbringing but I know for a fact that when I was growing up my mother was the strict parent in contrast to my father being the laid back guy always defending us when my mother beat us.  

My uBPDm never beat my brother and me, but she was very emotionally abusive. She was always the victim of something, and used to depend on us (and nobody else) for sympathy. My memories go all the way back to the first year of my life, and I have NO memory of my parents ever being affectionate with each other. They were always fighting and yelling in front of me and my brother. I have so many memories of my mother collapsing on the floor, a total sobbing mess. I wanted desperately to be able to do something, but there was nothing I could do. I used to hate myself for being unable to alleviate her suffering. However, I eventually learned to climb out of the despair, and I have grown immensely over the years.

So yes, I do know why I feel the way that I do. I used to be a pleaser too, but stopped letting people walk all over me years ago. However, I am still attracted to waif-like traits (although not hopelessly so.  ) I've dated several nons before, so I am pretty optimistic I will able to find and thrive in a normal, healthy emotional relationship eventually.

Notsurewhattothinkofthis, this was very helpful. Thank you for opening up and sharing.

[movingon6]

Thanks so much for this post -- this has been on my mind a lot lately.

I think it can take a while to really get to know someone and to see patterns in their behavior over time.

For example, when things first starting seeming really "off" with my ex-husband, he was in very stressful job situation.  At first, I thought it was the situation and he was, in some ways, a victim.  It wasn't until the situation started repeating itself with different people at different jobs -- and then with me -- that I realized he was really driving it and that he was a huge part of his problems.

It's easy now to look back and see the "red flags" at the beginning.  But now, I have a historical context in which to place them.  I didn't have that historical perspective when I first met him-- it wasn't possible to have it.

[balletomane]

I know this is 2 days old but I wanted to response to this and to the OP. What I have learned through reading BPD, NPD and Narcissism books is that the attraction we have for these people is stemmed from our childhood.  That could have been physically or/and mentally abuse and by having NPD, BPD parents sometimes without us knowing. I do wonder if my parents were Narcissistic (My Dad being the codependent one) If we had been raised in a healthy upbringing (I am not sure what Healthy really is to be honest) we would notice right away and recognized some of the symptoms or traits of BPD, NPD people.

This is one of the things I sometimes find frustrating about bpdfamily as a forum - the very common assumption that there must be some sort of problem in our families that led us to date people with BPD. I had a very loving family who were nothing but supportive and nurturing in my childhood. The first time I was asked on here if I'd had a problematic family of origin - and the question was phrased in a leading way, so it was obvious that the expected answer was 'yes' - I got the feeling that I wasn't even being believed when I said no.

I know you don't mean it this way, but suggesting that people who haven't grown up in abusive homes must be able to notice BPD right away only adds to the self-doubt and self-blame for those of us who did have a positive upbringing but still ended up in a painful and damaging relationship. "I never got beaten by my mum, my dad was never emotionally cold with me, so I must have no excuse for being manipulated by him and it's all my fault for letting it happen." I did recognise that my ex had difficulties, but I also understood that mental health problems are not necessarily a barrier to a fulfilling and loving relationship - the important things are insight and good communication, and at first he seemed to have those. I'd known him for years. The abuse crept up incrementally, little by little, until eventually I started to accept is as normal. Another important part of my healing has been acknowledging that this can happen to anyone. A loving family and good upbringing might help, but it doesn't act as a total immunization against the abusive behaviour and bad choices of others.

I think we need to accept that we've all had different experiences and only speak for ourselves and our own experiences, not try to generalise too much about what others have been through.

[enlighten me]

Balletomane I have to agree. I also had a loving upbringing. I had a good childhood and have had no trauma in my life. I guess what I am saying is that I am what I am like and its not due to FOO or trauma.

I think its just the way Im wired.

[shatra]

Gonzalo wrote---

I know very well that all I could have done better in the relationship was to set firm boundaries earlier, and leave when (not if) they were violated. I could have spotted red flags and slowed down or stopped as they came up. I could have refused to allow her to treat me badly

-----I could have done the above too. I could have also spoken up  more when he was doing the push-pull, and done more validation... .ultimately though, he has a psychiatric diagnosis with severe symptoms which seriously affect his relationships and communication (among other things).  And part of that disorder is to push people away (with or without triggers) and pull them back. So, like other people on this board, no matter what I could have done or not done differently, he would have pushed me away.

----Yes, like others I wanted to "help" him, and like others have written I stayed, hoping he would get more comfortable with closeness. It never really happened, in a lasting way.  And this is how he is, I now see, with other people.  I need to keep in mind that he has a psychiatric diagnosis which limits and affects his actions, no matter what I do, say, or don't do.

[Notsurewhattothinkofthis]

I know this is 2 days old but I wanted to response to this and to the OP. What I have learned through reading BPD, NPD and Narcissism books is that the attraction we have for these people is stemmed from our childhood.  That could have been physically or/and mentally abuse and by having NPD, BPD parents sometimes without us knowing. I do wonder if my parents were Narcissistic (My Dad being the codependent one) If we had been raised in a healthy upbringing (I am not sure what Healthy really is to be honest) we would notice right away and recognized some of the symptoms or traits of BPD, NPD people.

This is one of the things I sometimes find frustrating about bpdfamily as a forum - the very common assumption that there must be some sort of problem in our families that led us to date people with BPD. I had a very loving family who were nothing but supportive and nurturing in my childhood. The first time I was asked on here if I'd had a problematic family of origin - and the question was phrased in a leading way, so it was obvious that the expected answer was 'yes' - I got the feeling that I wasn't even being believed when I said no.

I know you don't mean it this way, but suggesting that people who haven't grown up in abusive homes must be able to notice BPD right away only adds to the self-doubt and self-blame for those of us who did have a positive upbringing but still ended up in a painful and damaging relationship. "I never got beaten by my mum, my dad was never emotionally cold with me, so I must have no excuse for being manipulated by him and it's all my fault for letting it happen." I did recognise that my ex had difficulties, but I also understood that mental health problems are not necessarily a barrier to a fulfilling and loving relationship - the important things are insight and good communication, and at first he seemed to have those. I'd known him for years. The abuse crept up incrementally, little by little, until eventually I started to accept is as normal. Another important part of my healing has been acknowledging that this can happen to anyone. A loving family and good upbringing might help, but it doesn't act as a total immunization against the abusive behaviour and bad choices of others.

I think we need to accept that we've all had different experiences and only speak for ourselves and our own experiences, not try to generalise too much about what others have been through.

Of course I did not mean that my situation is related everybody. But CODEPENDENCY stems from childhood and that is why we get abused and keep coming for more. Everyone has different issues to deal with. I am not generalizing everyone got abused and beat up in their childhood.  What I meant was that either we believe it or not we subconsciously are attracted to people that somehow fills a gap of what we are missing or craving within ourselves. That crave would be either be to be funnier, more attractive, smarter who knows. But most (Again not all) people are craving what they don’t have emotionally.

Again, I am basing this opinion on from what I read from Ross’s studies and conclusions. I believe we are getting off topics here but to me that make sense and has made me realize why I get myself involved with these type of people and what I need to work on.

[AwakenedOne]

I feel that the "look within" guidance can be sometimes counterproductive. Although it is well intentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if 25% of new members are turned off after hearing that advice and just leave the site­. I think it should be given with caution while considering the amount of time away from the relationship the member has or by how much a member is currently hurting. Some have had milder BPD relationships and some very hellish ones.

I am more comfortable at offering healing advice / recovery steps to members such as something like this:

1. Look not within. Look at your ex instead. Try to understand what they are or were all about. The more you begin to understand about the pwBPD you will hate them less or not even at all after a while. Eventually you might feel sorry for them and wish them the best even from a far with no words exchanged.

2. Now begin to look at everything from a spectators seat at a theatre toward the past relationship film. Play every moment back in your mind casually but with a thirst for knowledge when you are ready in bits or all at once. After playing the film back you might see that some things that you thought were happening weren't and things that you thought weren't actually were. Absorb all you have learned.

3. After Step #2 is completed, place what you have learned about yourself (the good and / or the mistakes and the realities) in a file in your brain space to help use in the future.

4. Live long and prosper.

[enlighten me]

Awakenedone I agree that in the beginning self reflection isn't a good thing.

You need to get through the initial hurt.

You then need answers and unfortunately you will never get all the answers to all the questions.

Self reflection is an advanced tool and theres a lot that you need to understand before it is of any real use to you.

It probably more of a personal inventory topic than a leaving one.

For self reflection to be of any use you need to be in an unbiased place. Its like post game analysis. You need to see what your team did that was good and bad. A real view of this cant happen if you are upset with the result. There can be a lot of blame that the other team cheated or the ref was biased but very little fault placed on your team.

Maybe there should be a left board for when people have been out of the relationship long enough for the more advanced ideas to be helpful.

[C.Stein]

Awakenedone,  I generally agree with what you have outlined in your steps to healing with one exception.  I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through.  Relationships are a two way street (act <-> react).  I would think this requires at least a some personal reflection in order to truly understand.

[shatra]

enlighten me wrote---

For self reflection to be of any use you need to be in an unbiased place. Its like post game analysis. You need to see what your team did that was good and bad. A real view of this cant happen if you are upset with the result. There can be a lot of blame that the other team cheated or the ref was biased but very little fault placed on your team.

---Yes, and they can also put a lot of blame on themselves---if only I had practiced more, if only I ran faster, and very little responsiblilty placed on the other team

Stein wrote---

I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through.  Relationships are a two way street (act <-> react).  I would think this requires at least a some personal reflection in order to truly understand.

---In my case it's true... .I should have validated more, I should have been more assertive, I gave too much space at times... .but to think that our behavior "contributed" to the BPD behavior is risky. It's important to keep in miind that they are like this with everybody. Often even with strangers. And definitely with people they spend more time with. Sooner or later, the pwBPD is going to act out their BPD behaviors with everyone; they will split everyone (whether or not they say it out loud), they will push everyone away in some form, etc.  Yes we can trigger them at times, but to think that we contribute to their behavior is risky.  They have a serious disorder with serious symptoms, and they will experience those symptoms with whoever they are close to, whether those people are saints or not.

[Reforming]

I think that most posters agree that reflection has a place. It's a question of timing and we all process things at a different pace.

The question I would ask is what's the alternative?

If we never examine our part in these relationships where do we end up?

It's easy and very understandable to get stuck in anger and blame, I've done it myself, but that doesn't help us detach and move forward.

And I think apportioning blame is rarely ever helpful - taking responsibility for our choices - not the choices of others - allows us to learn and grow stronger.

Reforming

[Gonzalo]

I know this is 2 days old but I wanted to response to this and to the OP. What I have learned through reading BPD, NPD and Narcissism books is that the attraction we have for these people is stemmed from our childhood.  That could have been physically or/and mentally abuse and by having NPD, BPD parents sometimes without us knowing.

What I have learned is that there is a lot of BS on these forums that you have to tune out to get better. There wasn't any history of abuse in my family at all, and my parents simply don't show signs of any personality disorder. I know the standard response is, 'oh, you must have repressed the memory' or 'oh, you must not recognize the signs' or 'oh, denial is the first sign of... .', but that's a load of crap. And it really hurts the healing of people who didn't follow that path who aren't able to tune out clear nonsense the way I had to when I was relying on this board more.

Awakenedone,  I generally agree with what you have outlined in your steps to healing with one exception.  I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through.  Relationships are a two way street (act <-> react).  I would think this requires at least a some personal reflection in order to truly understand.

The pwBPD reacts to stuff in their own head, the fact that a badly broken person gets mad at normal compassionate behavior does not mean that the person acting in a normal and compassionate manner contributed to their behavior. I didn't do anything wrong when I told her that I was fine with whatever worked for her on a particular week. I wasn't being unreasonable when I asked her what a number she blurted at me was for so that I could remember it. I wasn't insinuating that she was fat when I offered to make her a side, she didn't want it, and I didn't offer a different one.

I think viewing things like this is a good way to continue being a victim for the rest of your life. Abusive relationships are a one-way street, and it's sad that there's so much victim blaming on an otherwise helpful board. I refuse to accept any blame whatsoever for her emotional abuse.

[shatra]

Gonzalo wrote---

The pwBPD reacts to stuff in their own head, the fact that a badly broken person gets mad at normal compassionate behavior does not mean that the person acting in a normal and compassionate manner contributed to their behavior.

---True. A pwBPD has a psychiatric diagnosis with severe symptoms which seriously affect his relationships and communication.  And part of that disorder is to push people away (with or without triggers) and pull them back. So, like other people on this board, no matter what I could have done or not done differently, he would have pushed me away.  And he would have done this to anyone else in the world, no matter how well they treated him.

[Reforming]

I'm not sure that this board is guilty of victim blaming or advises people to "tune out" - not sure what you mean by that.

Do you mean condone, or accept?

I would never defend or justify my exes choices or behaviour, but at a certain point I think blame is an exercise in futility. It doesn't change anything

I think the board does encourage us to become more self aware and educated about how we relate to others whether they're disordered or not. Pretty useful skills I think no matter what your family background.

Very few of us have perfect childhoods and some of us have been more unlucky than others. We all have strengths and vulnerabilities and learning about this can help us make the most of our lives.

Reforming

[once removed]

if we arent careful, we can lean a little hard on labels and diagnoses.

which is true: "my ex has BPD so theres nothing i could have done" or "theres so much i could have done, im to blame"?

the answer is likely somewhere in the middle, less black and white.

codependency is another label we can lean a little hard on or throw around. its not one im at all comfortable applying to myself, but i sure did learn a lot from examining it. we do have a high percentage of members who relate to codependency, and we have a high percentage of members who have made profound connections relating to childhood (there is a reason its one place a good therapist will start). it doesnt have much to do with childhood or my family, but in my case, i do see a clear path i took that led me to, and partly kept me in, a relationship with my BPDex. i feel it was ultimately very valuable for me to examine.

Falling in Love with an Unavailable Person

i can see a little bit of myself all over this list. not a bit of that is about blaming myself.

ps. we learn about BPD and it understandably makes us feel a great deal better, soothes some of the greatest fears we have coming out of these relationships. how far do we take our learning? what do we do with it now?

[Gonzalo]

if we arent careful, we can lean a little hard on labels and diagnoses.

which is true: "my ex has BPD so theres nothing i could have done" or "theres so much i could have done, im to blame"?

the answer is likely somewhere in the middle, less black and white.

I disagree completely. My ex has BPD and wasn't willing to address it or even admit it, so there's nothing I could have done. There isn't any grey area at all, there was no path I could take that would be a win. I would have had to either give up on all happiness for myself and kept accepting her abuse, which would have eventually led to me being committed or dead, or I could have set better boundaries - which would have ended the relationship sooner. The myth of the middle ground is destructive.

My therapist, who has talked to both of us, agrees that unless my ex- had been willing to admit her issues and go into therapy, I was in a losing situation. Realizing that you can't always make it work was very healthy for me, and makes it so that I now don't feel bad if I need to turn away from a relationship because of red flags. The myth of the middle ground would leave me blaming myself for her problems, and endlessly replaying things in my head trying to find the right answer.

[Gonzalo]

I'm not sure that this board is guilty of victim blaming or advises people to "tune out" - not sure what you mean by that.

Victim blaming has happened in this very thread, for example "I feel it may be necessary to see how your own behavior contributed to the behavior of the pwBPD in order to really understand what they were going through." If she reacts badly to someone acting like a normal, caring human being and trying to interact with her like an adult, the problem is with her, not with some alleged 'contribution' from me. The worst part is the implication that if I had done things differently I wouldn't have 'contributed' to her attacks - it was a hopeless situation, and the only thing I did wrong was to not get our earlier (or, more completley, to set better boundaries, which would have led to me getting out earlier when they were violated).

The board doesn't advise people to tune out, what I had to do was tune out the victim blaming and middle myth stuff while paying attention to the useful advice and sympathetic stories. If I bought into the idea that I was 'contributing' to her issues, I would have been stuck trying to keep the relationship going or restart it after figuring out how to stop 'contributing' to her. That would not have been good at all.

[enlighten me]

I think that there are different interpretations going on. Unless I had been a lump of wood I would have triggered problems with my ex so therefore I did contribute. It doesn't mean I am to blame for her behaviour though. Then again I think even as a piece of wood she would have tripped over me and I would have been in the doghouse for getting under her feet.

By understanding what it was that set my ex off has actually made me feel less blame for what I did. I realise that my behaviour wasn't bad and it was actually her not being able to cope with things or behave in a healthy way that was to blame. Before this realisation I still believed it was probably my fault.

By realising how our interactions may have set off our exs isn't a case of taking the blame. By suggesting this isnt victim blaming. Its just another piece of a very confusing jigsaw that helps to see the bigger picture of what happened.

[movingon6]

Could I have done things differently?  Of course!   There is always room for being a better partner. 

Would it have made the relationship work or changed the outcome?  I don't think so.  Eventually the anger and splitting comes out and you become the enemy.   This is because no matter what you do, the other person has a mental illness.

[Reforming]

Speaking for myself and trying to avoid any generalisations - my relationship, my time on this board and educating myself has made me much more aware of my own behaviour and potential in prospective partners. I think this pretty useful

If I've had some of those skills and strengths early in my relationship I might have handled things better.

Do I think the outcome would have been different?

I don't know for certain, but I think it's very likely that the relationship would have ended sooner which would have been healthier.

We all make choices and I'm prepared to own mine.

Again speaking for myself - I also said and did things which I regret and some of my exes observations about my behaviour were valid.

That doesn't mean I defend or accept her bad or destructive behaviour or blame myself, but I recognise that how I behaved had an impact on our relationship

I don't think understanding our behaviour equals blame. It's about improving our self awareness

That's just my perspective and I'm totally comfortable with the idea that others have equally valid and different experiences and perspectives.

Reforming.

[shatra]

Once removed wrote---

which is true: "my ex has BPD so theres nothing i could have done" or "theres so much i could have done, im to blame"?

-----THere's no getting around it---if they are diagnosed with BPD, it is a serious psychiatric diagnosis, with serious symptoms.  Those symptoms are  evident especially in relationships, no matter how well the partner treats them.  We can focus on coping skills.There is nothing we "could have done" to remove or change their BPD, nothing.     We can suggest they get therapy and stick with therapy, and they might get better, but we could not have changed their BPD. We can learn coping skills, and we can hide when they rage, but sooner or later, no matter who we are, they are going to act out the BPD symptoms with us.  No matter how great we are, and no matter how we treat them. I realize it's hard for some people to accept this reality, and I realize it would be nice if we could "do something" to make them better, but we cannot.  Unless they don't have BPD.

[Infern0]

In my honest opinion

Yes i DO have some codependency, and yes it made things more difficult for me in the relationship.

However, my ex did have BPD, she was a serial cheater on every boyfriend she had had, and was an almost compulsive liar. On top of that she has all the other borderline criteria, engulfment and attatchment triggers etc.

Put simply, she was proven to be untrustworthy, and it wasn't logical to expect or hope for any kind of improvement.

Had i been healthy, i never would have gotten involved with her, of if i had done, i would have left very, very early on.

My part in it, and probably most of ours was staying too long.

[Turkish]

This thread has reached its post limit. It's a worthwhile discussion, so please feel free to start a new thread to continue.

Turkish