Coercing and telling the children they have to choose

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi guys,

So a parent of my sisters D11 called today to tell me his D11 who is friends with my sister's D11 was "worried about D11 because she has to make a decision and choose." He asked her, "make a decision on what" and she replied "who to live with her M or her D - she has to make a choice soon and she doesnt know what to do". He father knows the situation with my sister's BPDx and that they are in the middle of a family evaluation and the kids interviews are coming up. The BPDx already said "out son wants to live with me" in a letter to the CE.  My sister doesnt know if this is true or not because her S17 is saying he wants 50/50 time - but that could just be to appease his Mom. He is pretty far alienated, but covers it well. Almost like he's biding his time.

The BPDx pays for nothing, zero, for the children.

I am just sick that my Niece - 11 would be suffering inside thinking she has to make a choice and we know he put something scarier as the other option if she doesnt choose to live with him.  And we are fairly certain her brother is pressuring her too - on command from the Dad.

The evaluation is not supposed to be discussed with the children at all until they go in for theor interviews yet we know he has been discussing it with them and now this.

The friend my Niece-11 talked about it with wasnt even one of her close friends so she must be talking about it with every one of her friends because she is scared and does not know what to do.

She goes to therapy 1x every 2 weeks which is not enough with the kind of pressure BPDx is putting her under. I cannot even imagine how scare she must be feeling thinking she has to give up her Mom.

It's just disgusting what this guy does.

We are upoing her therapy to 1x a week immediately and will alos see if she will talk to the therapist and ask them who told her she had to pick one parent to live with.

Does anyone have any advice on this?

The evaluator is smart and is getting the picture and there is plenty of documentation of him on other incidents- but how do we prove this one?  It's beyond damaging to her and she's Already broken out in a body wide stress rash.

How do we back S17 off from pressuring her, too?

[Hard Rock]

Hi guys,

So a parent of my sisters D11 called today to tell me his D11 who is friends with my sister's D11 was "worried about D11 because she has to make a decision and choose." He asked her, "make a decision on what" and she replied "who to live with her M or her D - she has to make a choice soon and she doesnt know what to do". He father knows the situation with my sister's BPDx and that they are in the middle of a family evaluation and the kids interviews are coming up. The BPDx already said "out son wants to live with me" in a letter to the CE.  My sister doesnt know if this is true or not because her S17 is saying he wants 50/50 time - but that could just be to appease his Mom. He is pretty far alienated, but covers it well. Almost like he's biding his time.

The BPDx pays for nothing, zero, for the children.

I am just sick that my Niece - 11 would be suffering inside thinking she has to make a choice and we know he put something scarier as the other option if she doesnt choose to live with him.  And we are fairly certain her brother is pressuring her too - on command from the Dad.

The evaluation is not supposed to be discussed with the children at all until they go in for theor interviews yet we know he has been discussing it with them and now this.

The friend my Niece-11 talked about it with wasnt even one of her close friends so she must be talking about it with every one of her friends because she is scared and does not know what to do.

She goes to therapy 1x every 2 weeks which is not enough with the kind of pressure BPDx is putting her under. I cannot even imagine how scare she must be feeling thinking she has to give up her Mom.

It's just disgusting what this guy does.

We are upoing her therapy to 1x a week immediately and will alos see if she will talk to the therapist and ask them who told her she had to pick one parent to live with.

Does anyone have any advice on this?

The evaluator is smart and is getting the picture and there is plenty of documentation of him on other incidents- but how do we prove this one?  It's beyond damaging to her and she's Already broken out in a body wide stress rash.

How do we back S17 off from pressuring her, too?

[Matt]

I'm confused.

What is your relationship to these kids - are D11 and S17 your kids?

Who is their father and what is your relationship with him?

Who is pressuring them?

Usually the best way to handle this is by the kids' therapist.  When my kids were in counseling - they were about 8 and 10, and in counseling for a couple of years - the counselor spoke with them individually and in confidence - she didn't share most of those conversations with me.  But... .I did talk with her occasionally, and let her know when difficult issues were happening, so she could look for ways to help, and sometimes she told me in general terms how she thought the kids were each doing.

So... .if you are these kids' mother, and if you are in contact with their counselor, you might be able to gently suggest that you have some concerns about this - only say what you really know though - and ask the counselor to help the kids with it.

One more aspect is:  whether the Custody Evaluator can talk with the counselor - or are they they same person?

[livednlearned]

It sounds like S17 gets to choose where he lives, and somehow D11 thinks the same goes for her?

If that's not the case, then that's a fact you can work with. It's ok to talk to kids about facts. It's a bit more tricky to approach the topic when we find out about it second-hand.

Even so, I agree with Matt that you want the therapist involved. Can you talk to the T and share this information? How about the evaluator?

You're right that these "choices" absolutely gut our kids, the intensity of being put in the middle is traumatizing. D11 can work through these feelings (and many others) with someone neutral and trained and concerned.

What is D11's temperament like? My son seems to have a similar sensitive genotype to his N/BPD dad, and I had to use validation with him. So, for example, if S14 said something about having to choose between his parents, I had to learn to say validate his anxiety and feelings first, then deal with the truth. Sometimes, I had to validate first, take a break, then bring up the truth later when his feelings had cooled down a bit.

[Panda39]

Hard rock is talking about his niece 11 and her dad (his stbx brother-in-law) seems to be the problem parent.  Hard rock's niece's friend's dad contacted him about the pressure she is under.

How was that for a translation?  

I agree up the therapy have your sister tell the therapist what the friend's dad told you so they can give niece 11 help dealing with this situation.  Asking a child to choose a parent is a horrible thing to do her.    Hopefully the therapist will remind niece 11 that the court will decide who she lives with that this decision is for adults to make not 11 year old little girls.

Panda39

[david]

Document what you were told by simply writing it down. Keeping a journal can be used in court and also helps remember things. Make sure it has the dates in it.

Having the therapist tell niece that the courts will decide is the best. After our court order my ex tried to alienate the kids from me. Our youngest was the most susceptible. He was only 5 years old at the time. He would say that he didn't want to see me. I would simply tell him that mommy and me had to follow the court order or we could get in trouble. I would say I didn't want either one of us to get in trouble. That eliminated him having to pick a side. A few months of that and it stopped. Back then my ex would pump them for information. I realized that and I suspect S5 told her that daddy didn't want mommy or daddy to get in trouble for not following the court order. Finding what to say can be very difficult. In a way, my ex helped me to be a much better parent because I was forced to really think about these kinds of things and the consequences for our boys.

[ForeverDad]

I don't know the word for it, I call it Deflection.  When D11 is put on the spot, stressed over what to do, deflect the worry as best you can.  In this case, it is by telling the child that the court makes the decision, not the child.  Yes, an evaluator, Guardian ad Litem or the court can consider the older child's wishes but it is the adults who make the calls.  Let the kid be a kid.

That Deflection concept works well for us too.  When we feel put on the spot by some unexpected claim or demand, we don't have to answer immediately.  Generally we can say we'll consider it and thereby give ourselves time to ponder the issue, the impact and possible alternatives.  As an example, one way is to fall back to the order, "Sorry, I have to follow the order."  Or, "My lawyer said... ."  Or, "The court said/decided/wrote... ."

This may help you, your niece or other children who find themselves under pressure or stressed over what to do or not do:

Here's an example from my life about maintaining objectivity when pressured or guilted.  When I used to work a lobby desk of a large building in NYC, few locations had public restrooms, often reserved for customers, and the city's provided services frankly were minimal and not that nice.  You guessed it, every now and then people would come in and ask for a restroom, maybe even squirming or with kids jumping up and down.  Sadly, we had nothing available.  They'd even ask, "Then where do you go?".  Well, it was behind locked security checkpoints, basement, etc.  And one long period of time it was a construction area.  (One co-worker felt so pressured in one memorable incident that a boy was allowed in without escort and afterward the restroom was found with excrement smeared on the walls.)  I had a hard time too, I felt guilted when saying "Sorry, visit a restaurant across the street or down the block" as though it was such a horrible thing.  Then I realized that though they had a problem, I wasn't in a position to accept responsibility for their problem and I couldn't afford to let them make their problem my problem.

I know, a very minor example when compared to our situations, but it helped me to identify when other people tried, sometimes even innocently, to make their problems my problems.  Once I identified the pressure, then I could better decide how to handle it or even whether I could or should handle it.

Generally when we are surprised by a sticky situation we need time to gather our wits and ponder the problem from an objective perspective, as though someone else was facing the problem and we were able to look in from the outside and share our suggestions without taint of stress and emotions.

[livednlearned]

When D11 is put on the spot, stressed over what to do, deflect the worry as best you can.  In this case, it is by telling the child that the court makes the decision, not the child. 

The tricky part is that D11 is telling other people, not her mom, about her dilemma. She may be hearing similar things from others, that it's not her decision, yet she is still feeling anxious. It's possible that dad has said something that holds more sway here, especially with an alienated older brother, and D11 is getting scapegoated or bullied by both brother and dad to approach this like a test of allegiance or loyalty.

With my son, there had to be validation of his feelings, the facts were never enough. With D11, she may be stuck in the feeling that she has to choose who to live with, and it may in fact be the fear and consequence of making a choice more than the reality of the situation, if that makes sense. For example, maybe she really does want to live with her mom, and she knows that means losing her dad and brother in some sense. Picking a parent can feel like annihilation for a child. For S14, the court order was an abstraction and the facts bounced off him. I needed to be the catcher's mitt for his anxiety and fears and worries, and sort out what exactly was driving those feelings, and validation had to occur in order for him to even hear the facts. Only after he articulated his feelings could he say exactly what was worrying him, and only then could I provide the facts.

[Hard Rock]

LnL has it exactly right.

She has been told not to talk about it by my ex-BPDBIL, more like probably threatened and we expect she is being "coached" by her brother as well.  She has no chance if both gang up on her and it's easier for her just to give in.

Someone has told her if she "chooses" to live with her Dad and tells that to the Judge - she will be able to see her Mom whenever she wants.

We believe he is hedging his bets because this is a 50/50 state and his mental health records and documented behavior are pretty bad so if he can get her to say to the CE that she wants to live with her Dad - he is probably thinking he will get to keep his 50/50 intact with no mental health treatment compliance requirements or consequences. 

4 days after he had his 1st interview with the CE in October - she had time with him on a Sunday.  The next day she said she had a headache and tummy ache and didn't want to go to school or his house.  Next day same thing.  She slept all day, ate plenty, and no fever and was just staring into space like she was in distress.  I have never seen her like that before.  She is generally happy and excited about school.  She also broke out in a rash that the dermatologist attributed to possible stress, no real answers and they couldn't figure it out.

I can almost bet my life that he got freaked out by his 1st interview with the CE and that he couldn't read or manipulate the guy by playing the victim and went straight after D11's mind to say she had to "choose" to give himself some insurance policy.

He knows he has the S17 protecting him and fairly well alienated, but he had not started on her yet.

My sister is doing a good job of slowly validating and therapist told her she would never have to choose - but I don't think she can process it since she's being told to keep quiet by her Dad and her brother.

[livednlearned]

My son had a lot of somatic complaints too -- it's usually a sign of severe emotional and psychological distress.

If D11 is not talking about this with her mom, it's ok to validate the somatic stuff. My son is a stuffer, he stuffs his feelings, or else gets flooded with them. When he's stuffing, I have to be more resourceful, and say things like, "Your body language is like this (hunched shoulders, head down). Everything ok?"

I didn't pursue it if he wasn't ready to talk. You have to weigh this stuff and use your intuition. For me, I felt like I had to focus on the long game. It seems to have worked, S14 talks to me more than most teens talk to their parents. Not about everything, but a surprising amount. Stuff about his dad is more loaded, so that tends to get stuffed more than other things.

I can't say enough about the validating questions.

I also think it's powerful to find analogical situations in movies and books. Or things happening with friends. These are safer ways to help our kids navigate extremely psychologically distressing events without us trying to be their therapists.