stuck again

[DestroyedKnight]

Over a year now since my udpwBPD ex girlfriend left me,I was moving on (or so I thought) I know she was keeping tabs on me and stalking me.I got into a new relationship which has just broke down but 2 days ago I was in my exes house visiting the children and we got talking and she told me how sorry she was and how she regrets acting out and pushing me away but she said it felt like her head was under water and it was the only thing she new to do to survive.I gave her a cuddle and she clung tightly to me so we kissed and she had tears streaming down her face and she couldn't bare to look at me.

She tells me that she has been to a doctor and that if it takes a long time she wants to get help and that there is no point putting a plaster on it and also dismissed the idea of tablets,favoured option being that she wants to do something about this once and for all.

She said and I quote "I can't let myself get used to hugging,kissing,talking to you etc".She tells me that she doesn't want to hurt me anymore than she already has.I love her so much and even after everything she did to me I am still there for her but I can't help feeling she is just talking the talk and not doing much walking.Most people would say to move on with me life but there is always that nagging 'what if?' at the back of my mind.She wants to do this by herself,in her own time and informs me she is just waiting on a letter now to confirm a start date for therapy

So how the hell do I play this now?

[valet]

Hey there DestroyedKnight, that sounds like a very confusing situation. She's gone, and then returns, but is afraid of how she might feel. That's ok. You are not responsible for sorting out her feelings. You're only responsibility right now are your own.

I think that you might want to really give yourself some space here to figure out what you want. All that you know right now is that she is considering therapy. This is not a guarantee, and it will involve a lot of really hard work by her.

Think about yourself. What do you want? When you've come to a decision on that, you'll know how best to proceed.

[DestroyedKnight]

Thanks for the reply.Yes it is extremely confusing.I know I can't deny my feelings for her.After all I was with her for nearly 9 years,talks of marriage and being together forever and then she swept the rug from under my feet.And even after all the twisted sick mind games I told her I forgive her which I sincerely do.I think the main reason I went into another relationship was to see if I still 'had it' but I feel I was lying to myself all along.

She invited me round her house tonight for tea with her and my children and I kept it civil and didn't bring up the past which really pisses her off albeit very frustrating for me not getting any answers which she tells me she can't give.But the annoying thing is that the bloke she claims she was speaking to after the split according to her is still on the scene but only friends and she announces to me that he is planning tox come and see her after christmas for 'coffee and a chat'.Either the truth or another elaborate lie to keep me on my toes . I said to her tonight that I can't understand why she won't talk to me but finds it easier to speak to some bloke off the internet when the other night she is texting me saying she can't deny she still loves me and I know her better than anyone

[valet]

From what you're saying it's been really hard on you. 9 years... .and then this. I wasn't in that long of relationship, but I think I know where you're coming from. On the other hand, maybe I don't.

You are right in saying that you can't deny your feelings for her. The only way out is through. So, what do you think is the best way through?

[DestroyedKnight]

From what you're saying it's been really hard on you. 9 years... .and then this. I wasn't in that long of relationship, but I think I know where you're coming from. On the other hand, maybe I don't.

You are right in saying that you can't deny your feelings for her. The only way out is through. So, what do you think is the best way through?

I honestly don't know what is the best way through.My thinking is do I wait and hold fire until I see positive signs she is making great strides with the therapy? do I carry on with my life like I have been doing (possibly getting into another relationship)? I know it is as frustrating for her as it is for me not being able to give me answers to her feelings apart from a brief text saying she has always loved me and still does.

And she posted this song on her fb wall a few weeks back which after listening to the lyrics makes me think SHE KNOWS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOboa27SHDE

[valet]

It's ok that you don't know which way to feel. There are no rules here. We are allowed to feel whatever we want. Your ex has this right as well.

Inevitably, you do have to carry on with your own life, regardless of whether she is in it in any capacity or not. I've found that speculating over many unpredictable futures makes this a lot harder. It can get us stuck. You're right on the money there, from my perspective.

Relationships don't always have to end in dramatic ways. Maybe you don't even need to decide right now, but rather, let the decision come to you.

What is it exactly that you think that she knows?

[DestroyedKnight]

It's ok that you don't know which way to feel. There are no rules here. We are allowed to feel whatever we want. Your ex has this right as well.

Inevitably, you do have to carry on with your own life, regardless of whether she is in it in any capacity or not. I've found that speculating over many unpredictable futures makes this a lot harder. It can get us stuck. You're right on the money there, from my perspective.

Relationships don't always have to end in dramatic ways. Maybe you don't even need to decide right now, but rather, let the decision come to you.

What is it exactly that you think that she knows?

Sorry I didn't make myself very clear then . Listening to those lyrics word for word screams to me she knows she has serious issues and she knows how much she hurt me and is asking me to forgive her.

I am at a very good stage in my life.I managed to carry on working through the entire split even though I wanted to end my life at one point.I have my children and I also know I am attractive to the opposite sex so it's not all doom and gloom as I initially thought.

I know she can't give me the answers I want but I want her desperately to do this therapy and give us a fighting chance because we really were perfect together in every sense (although I know she mirrored me )

[babyducks]

Sorry I didn't make myself very clear then . Listening to those lyrics word for word screams to me she knows she has serious issues and she knows how much she hurt me and is asking me to forgive her.

... .

I know she can't give me the answers I want but I want her desperately to do this therapy and give us a fighting chance because we really were perfect together in every sense (although I know she mirrored me )

Hi DestroyedKnight... .If you scroll up to the top of the page and look in the box that says choosing a path you will find a whole bunch of steps.   steps 3 and 4 come to mind right now.   finding out about BPD normally gives us all the opportunity to focus outwardly, to examine the behavior and relationship skills of our partners.   that's a big step for all of us.   what my experience has been is that I needed to find out what I was like in the relationship.   if I don't want to be stuck I need to have skills and tools and knowledge of not just how she works but how I work. 

my partner has been in therapy, and has worked extremely hard to address her issues.  She's made great progress.   enough progress that she has been able to meet me halfway on many issues.   and guess what ? it was still up to me to come the other half of the way.   therapy was not a magic panacea, it took years of therapy for her and 2 years of therapy for me to get over some of our 'bad' past.    we never got back to the idealization stage.  thank God.   for me, and I can't emphasis this enough, for me I couldn't wait and hope that therapy fixed her.  I needed to take action.

ducks

[OutOfEgypt]

The ruminating about what she wants, thinks, and is doing, the emotional anguish, the endless "what-ifs" that keep you stuck, the pain, the feeling of paralysis, like you just don't know what to do... .these are all things I remember really well, too well, for many, many years until I finally called it quits.

I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what a counselor told me 11 years ago that I wish I had listened to:  "You gotta leave her... .she's borderline.  She's going to keep doing this to you over and over again.  She's gonna destroy you, and your kids."  I, of course, didn't listen to his advice.  I had no idea what that meant, and I was still firmly enmeshed in all of my ex-wife's manipulative games and emotional fog.  She had my self-esteem in a vice, and she could squeeze or release that vice whenever she wanted, and I would come running.  I was so captivated by her story, so swept up her her plight (how everyone is mean to her and I'm the only one who really cares), and so tied to this fantasy of having a happy family and life with her, just around the next bend in the road, that it wasn't that I just wouldn't leave.  I couldn't.  I made her the air I breathed, and she wanted exactly that.

I kept in touch with that counselor over the years, and each time there was a major blow-up, another affair, and another crisis, I reached out to him.  He told me the same thing.  He even predicted things, such as that she would start trolling for our adult son's friends (she's 40 years old and our son just turned 21).  I didn't believe it, but it turned out true.  After the divorce, she saw that I moved on and was dating.  She freaked out, showed up at my door crying one day.  Then she started talking to me about getting help for herself.  Was this all I ever wanted?  I bit the hook, she started therapy, and after a blissful two months she moved back in... .at which time it was like a switch was flipped.  She knew she had me again.  She knew I was fully lodged back in her pocket, no matter how much I would say otherwise.  All of my therapy I had done over four years was nearly flushed down the toilet.  It was like I had gone back into emotional captivity.  Within a few months, she was cheating on me with the same guy, lying about it, and cheating with other guys, including the 18 year old friend of our son.  I was suspicious, but believed her lies and let her brow-beat me into shutting up.  Finally, I got fed up.  I didn't care if they were just "friends", it wasn't worth going back to the 13 years I had lived in hell with this woman.  It was then that I found out about the 18-year old friend.  Our son even witnessed them making out.  Sadly, I know there were other men I don't even know about.  It took me four months to get her out of my house.  Four.  Including bribes, legal threats, etc.  And rumor has it, she had every intention of keeping my head under water, sleeping with whoever she wanted, getting me to take care of her while she went to school and lived rent free, eventually telling me in a few years and breaking up with me.  Nice, huh?

So, I understand the confusion and sense of paralysis, but I tell you what... .everything that counselor said to me, every little bit of it, was true.  I started to research more, to read about BPD.  I started to notice how she controlled me, how she used intimidation, fear, guilt, and affection to manipulate me.  One minute, she would lie to a judge and get a restraining order against me in order to maintain control of things.  The next minute, she was crying and being all sweet to me, hoping I would take her back.  She is broken, maybe even flat-out evil, and she always will be, barring a miracle.

This same counselor told me one thing that has stuck... ."The only thing that will help her is if God shatters her into a million pieces and puts her back together again."  I believe that is true, and *if* that ever happens it will be great for her (I pray for that for her, still), great for our kids, and great for having to deal with her as a co-parent, but I couldn't care less romantically.  I have moved on.  At the time, I was desperate.  She had me so wrapped up into her that I couldn't conceive of life and happiness apart from her.  I worshiped her and would have done anything for her.  Now, I'm happily remarried and wish I could go back in time and slap some sense into myself.  

Truth is, back in the day I was too afraid.  It was the "what-ifs", the obsessive rumination that I indulged as a way to avoid the painful truth that I didn't want to face.  I was terrified that if I didn't take her back, if I didn't give her one more chance, that I would miss out.  I would lose that one chance to have everything with her that I ever wanted.  And that is part of what makes BPD relationships so seductive -the idealization phase at the beginning- because we spend the rest of our lives, if we don't get out, beating the hell out of ourselves (and letting them beat the hell out of us) with the fantastical hope of returning there.  But it wasn't what makes up a real relationship in the first place.  It was a fantasy -very real to them, but not real, not lasting.  The truth that I did not want to face is that there was no real, legitimate hope, and even if some miracle happened it wouldn't change things and what has happened.  The truth is that there was no real possibility of something good with her, and the more I lingered over it the more I was actually depriving our kids of a sane, stable home, at least part of the time (when they are with me).

But here's the truth... .you aren't missing out.  If she ever gets help, it's gonna take years and years to change things, and her tendencies will still be there.  Put it this way... .if me returning to my ex reduced all the three years of hard therapy work (at that time) to nothing, what do you think you can expect for someone with a much more severe condition like BPD?  That they will just go into therapy, come out a year later, and be all better... .be the person they appeared to be at first?  That's a fantasy, not reality.  Sorry.

You aren't missing out on life if you move on.  It hurts, but there really, truly is good, happy, functional life out there.  My new wife is AWESOME.  We have our fights and struggles, like any marriage, but I would never go back to my BPD ex for all the money in the world.  I don't care if she went to therapy for 10 years and my new wife left me.  I would just stay single.  That ship has sailed.

So, take it for what it is worth... .I don't buy it for a second.  I'm not saying she is deliberately lying.  It may be very real to her, her desperate need to seek professional help because she sees she's losing you.  But as soon as you bite the hook and let her back in, as soon as she regains control of you, it will go right back to the same thing.  She literally cannot help herself.  Sorry.  Care about her, sure, but my take is that you should care about her and wish her well from a distance.

[DestroyedKnight]

The ruminating about what she wants, thinks, and is doing, the emotional anguish, the endless "what-ifs" that keep you stuck, the pain, the feeling of paralysis, like you just don't know what to do... .these are all things I remember really well, too well, for many, many years until I finally called it quits.

I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what a counselor told me 11 years ago that I wish I had listened to:  "You gotta leave her... .she's borderline.  She's going to keep doing this to you over and over again.  She's gonna destroy you, and your kids."  I, of course, didn't listen to his advice.  I had no idea what that meant, and I was still firmly enmeshed in all of my ex-wife's manipulative games and emotional fog.  She had my self-esteem in a vice, and she could squeeze or release that vice whenever she wanted, and I would come running.  I was so captivated by her story, so swept up her her plight (how everyone is mean to her and I'm the only one who really cares), and so tied to this fantasy of having a happy family and life with her, just around the next bend in the road, that it wasn't that I just wouldn't leave.  I couldn't.  I made her the air I breathed, and she wanted exactly that.

I kept in touch with that counselor over the years, and each time there was a major blow-up, another affair, and another crisis, I reached out to him.  He told me the same thing.  He even predicted things, such as that she would start trolling for our adult son's friends (she's 40 years old and our son just turned 21).  I didn't believe it, but it turned out true.  After the divorce, she saw that I moved on and was dating.  She freaked out, showed up at my door crying one day.  Then she started talking to me about getting help for herself.  Was this all I ever wanted?  I bit the hook, she started therapy, and after a blissful two months she moved back in... .at which time it was like a switch was flipped.  She knew she had me again.  She knew I was fully lodged back in her pocket, no matter how much I would say otherwise.  All of my therapy I had done over four years was nearly flushed down the toilet.  It was like I had gone back into emotional captivity.  Within a few months, she was cheating on me with the same guy, lying about it, and cheating with other guys, including the 18 year old friend of our son.  I was suspicious, but believed her lies and let her brow-beat me into shutting up.  Finally, I got fed up.  I didn't care if they were just "friends", it wasn't worth going back to the 13 years I had lived in hell with this woman.  It was then that I found out about the 18-year old friend.  Our son even witnessed them making out.  Sadly, I know there were other men I don't even know about.  It took me four months to get her out of my house.  Four.  Including bribes, legal threats, etc.  And rumor has it, she had every intention of keeping my head under water, sleeping with whoever she wanted, getting me to take care of her while she went to school and lived rent free, eventually telling me in a few years and breaking up with me.  Nice, huh?

So, I understand the confusion and sense of paralysis, but I tell you what... .everything that counselor said to me, every little bit of it, was true.  I started to research more, to read about BPD.  I started to notice how she controlled me, how she used intimidation, fear, guilt, and affection to manipulate me.  One minute, she would lie to a judge and get a restraining order against me in order to maintain control of things.  The next minute, she was crying and being all sweet to me, hoping I would take her back.  She is broken, maybe even flat-out evil, and she always will be, barring a miracle.

This same counselor told me one thing that has stuck... ."The only thing that will help her is if God shatters her into a million pieces and puts her back together again."  I believe that is true, and *if* that ever happens it will be great for her (I pray for that for her, still), great for our kids, and great for having to deal with her as a co-parent, but I couldn't care less romantically.  I have moved on.  At the time, I was desperate.  She had me so wrapped up into her that I couldn't conceive of life and happiness apart from her.  I worshiped her and would have done anything for her.  Now, I'm happily remarried and wish I could go back in time and slap some sense into myself.  

Truth is, back in the day I was too afraid.  It was the "what-ifs", the obsessive rumination that I indulged as a way to avoid the painful truth that I didn't want to face.  I was terrified that if I didn't take her back, if I didn't give her one more chance, that I would miss out.  I would lose that one chance to have everything with her that I ever wanted.  And that is part of what makes BPD relationships so seductive -the idealization phase at the beginning- because we spend the rest of our lives, if we don't get out, beating the hell out of ourselves (and letting them beat the hell out of us) with the fantastical hope of returning there.  But it wasn't what makes up a real relationship in the first place.  It was a fantasy -very real to them, but not real, not lasting.  The truth that I did not want to face is that there was no real, legitimate hope, and even if some miracle happened it wouldn't change things and what has happened.  The truth is that there was no real possibility of something good with her, and the more I lingered over it the more I was actually depriving our kids of a sane, stable home, at least part of the time (when they are with me).

But here's the truth... .you aren't missing out.  If she ever gets help, it's gonna take years and years to change things, and her tendencies will still be there.  Put it this way... .if me returning to my ex reduced all the three years of hard therapy work (at that time) to nothing, what do you think you can expect for someone with a much more severe condition like BPD?  That they will just go into therapy, come out a year later, and be all better... .be the person they appeared to be at first?  That's a fantasy, not reality.  Sorry.

You aren't missing out on life if you move on.  It hurts, but there really, truly is good, happy, functional life out there.  My new wife is AWESOME.  We have our fights and struggles, like any marriage, but I would never go back to my BPD ex for all the money in the world.  I don't care if she went to therapy for 10 years and my new wife left me.  I would just stay single.  That ship has sailed.

So, take it for what it is worth... .I don't buy it for a second.  I'm not saying she is deliberately lying.  It may be very real to her, her desperate need to seek professional help because she sees she's losing you.  But as soon as you bite the hook and let her back in, as soon as she regains control of you, it will go right back to the same thing.  She literally cannot help herself.  Sorry.  Care about her, sure, but my take is that you should care about her and wish her well from a distance.

Thank you so much for this wonderful insight,this is just what I need ( a massive kick up the arse to keep me on course ). Just to respond to a few of your points, yes I fully agree with the 'don't buy it for a second' when she told me her tale of wanting to see a therapist my initial response was hmm is this just smoke and mirrors to make me believe and weaken my defenses against her?.I take everything she does and says now with a pinch of salt,even her aunty said she is a compulsive liar which sums it up nicely.

I have had normal relationships with normal people before in my 36 years and breakdowns due to mutual reasons.My main question that is driving me bonkers is "why am I obsessed with wanting to wait for a young woman who hurt me as badly as she did and thinking things will get better"? especially when there are not very many success stories if any to have any hope over.

I am partly blowing my own trumpet and partly listening to the advice of other people who have told me I am good looking,genuine,loving guy who a woman would be lucky to have and she mentally beat me down so much that it's taking time to believe it again. If I am honest the whole 8 or so years listening to her telling me I am her soulmate,how much she loves me and never wants to lose me makes me think come on then! fight for us if you love me that much,do what you have to do!,but I warned her there is only so much I will take before enough is enough.

While she has been the way she has in all fairness I have not been attracted to any of her qualities at all.The humour between us which was ever present has gone, I don't even feel like she considers me a friend.I know she has slagged me off constantly to anyone who will listen but is nice to my face so what in the hell am I thinking?

is she really evil? or is there that lovely beautiful charming young woman still in there somewhere?

[OutOfEgypt]

Is she really evil? or is there that lovely beautiful charming young woman still in there somewhere?

Could be both?   Seriously, it isn't my place to call anybody "evil", especially without knowing them.  But why do we get so stuck on them?  That's the 64 million dollar question, isn't it?  Lots of factors are involved.  My ex can be very charming and passionate, as well.  There is something endearing, even innocent-like about them, even though they are far from innocent.  And that idealization phase... .boy that is like a drug.  Not easy stuff by any means.

When I consider my ex, it is easy to pathologize everything and call her a monster.  Sometimes it is difficult, at this point, to think of many good things about her.  I think I would say, if I am being completely objective, that she has some good qualities, she has many qualities that are meant to gain attention and adoration, and she has some really selfish qualities and an uncanny ability to seemingly not be bothered by doing horrible things.  She may claim that she feels badly, but I have seen behind her mask enough times to doubt the credibility of it.  So is there some good in her?  Undoubtedly.  The problem is that she's best friends with the bad part of herself.  She doesn't want to change... .unless it gets her something.  Otherwise, she wants the world to bend around her.