Top Ten Red Flags Continued

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

i want to thank everyone for their participation in identifying their top ten red flags. these were the results:

1. emotionally immature communicator (a person unable or unwilling to see your point of view. acts out in conversations involving the relationship)

2. over intensity/too much too soon (a person that comes on very strong, very quickly)

3. history of volatile friendships (a person with few close friends, or lots of former close friends, disclosure of past conflict with friends)

4. complex FOO issues (generally between but not limited to, the former partner, their mother, and/or father)

5. perpetual victim (a person who frequently paints themselves as victim when it comes to conflict past or present)

6. temper (characterized as anger management issues or rage)

7. unresolved previous relationship(s) (partner is not over an ex, or has ongoing issues with an ex)

8. "a drug problem" (while members may differ in their views of what constitutes a drug problem, substance abuse and/or addiction were mentioned frequently)

9. dishonesty (primarily characterized as "lying", either about things small or important. anywhere from "dishonesty of any kind" to an ability to lie to others, to dishonesty about curious, small things)

10. unstable employment history (characterized by having few long term jobs, too many short term jobs, or being unemployed)

around half of the answers were pertinent to the members' "BPD relationships." it may not be surprising that several on this list are diagnostic criteria of BPD; others are common behaviors. so lets talk about it.

please pick the three (3) most significant challenges in your relationship from this list.

how long was your relationship (in terms of months)?

which three risk factors were present and most significant from the list?

approximately when (in terms of months) did you realize each was present?

how did it change your participation/commitment to the relationship?

thanks in advance

[once removed]

i want to thank everyone for their participation in identifying their top ten red flags. these were the results:

1. emotionally immature communicator (a person unable or unwilling to see your point of view. acts out in conversations involving the relationship)

2. over intensity/too much too soon (a person that comes on very strong, very quickly)

3. history of volatile friendships (a person with few close friends, or lots of former close friends, disclosure of past conflict with friends)

4. complex FOO issues (generally between but not limited to, the former partner, their mother, and/or father)

5. perpetual victim (a person who frequently paints themselves as victim when it comes to conflict past or present)

6. temper (characterized as anger management issues or rage)

7. unresolved previous relationship(s) (partner is not over an ex, or has ongoing issues with an ex)

8. "a drug problem" (while members may differ in their views of what constitutes a drug problem, substance abuse and/or addiction were mentioned frequently)

9. dishonesty (primarily characterized as "lying", either about things small or important. anywhere from "dishonesty of any kind" to an ability to lie to others, to dishonesty about curious, small things)

10. unstable employment history (characterized by having few long term jobs, too many short term jobs, or being unemployed)

around half of the answers were pertinent to the members' "BPD relationships." it may not be surprising that several on this list are diagnostic criteria of BPD; others are common behaviors. so lets talk about it.

please pick the three (3) most significant challenges in your relationship from this list.

how long was your relationship (in terms of months)?

which three risk factors were present and most significant from the list?

approximately when (in terms of months) did you realize each was present?

how did it change your participation/commitment to the relationship?

thanks in advance

[once removed]

relationship lasted thirty four months.

from this list, the most significant issues were: emotionally immature communicator, over intensity/too much too soon, and complex FOO issues.

i realized all of these issues were present very quickly; three months in or sooner.

how did it change my participation and commitment? in the end, it didnt. it created doubts. it created distance on my end. i must have threatened a breakup hundreds of times. by the end of the relationship i was digging in commitment wise.

when it comes to emotionally immature communicator: its just difficult to say i was really any better. i displayed my temper, too. i invalidated. i called names. im cheating a little when i pick this from the list as temper was one of the red flags present soonest. we would argue, fight, escalate, it would be circular, we wouldnt resolve much. throughout the relationship we both applied double standards. its something i could write an essay on, but where the blame is fairly evenly split. in fairness to both of us, we did have our share of mutually constructive and productive exchanges.

when it comes to over intensity/too much too soon: i wrote in my journal at the time that i was afraid she was coming on too fast, that i hadnt had any time to myself or to process where the relationship was going, and that i was worried she was about to tell me she loved me. i was right. when she did, i told her i loved her too. she (not even snooping) saw this bit in my journal and was understandably upset and worried. in hindsight, i was insecure in most of my past relationships. id feel i more or less liked my partner more than they did me. at the same time, i had strong opinions about what constituted love and how realistically soon it developed. my partner was very clingy, very insecure. it made me feel safe. it made me feel in a one up position. it made me feel she was incapable of leaving me. all things that were new to me and felt really nice. its not that it didnt make me uncomfortable or that i didnt think it was unhealthy, but i rationalized it, saying it was okay because we were meant to be regardless. this is something about me that has really changed. i am now uncomfortable taking a relationship too quickly.

when it comes to complex FOO issues: goodness. most of my exes had a bad relationship with their mother. it was all the same stuff; the mother was this evil, cruel, hateful woman, who had always held back and put down whichever partner. it was evident the father played a huge role, yet he was idealized, and i was often compared to him despite being anything like him. with my BPD ex, in retrospect, i see a great deal of triangulation. its evident to me that she and her mother competed over her father, tattling on each other to him, being jealous over his attention, setting up battles. she had it out for my mother from the very beginning, though the pendulum would swing. shed either start several hour long fights over my mother, or shed tell me how theyd chatted and were best friends forever (my father could do no wrong). im a loyalist and family and friends come first unless im married to you. these attempts to drive a wedge between my mother and me should have been a complete deal breaker. they will be in the future. meanwhile, she was, and still is, deeply enmeshed with her parents though her relationship with her mother is clearly better than it was when they lived together.

[hashtag_loyal]

R/S Length: 9 months

BPD Subtype: Textbook Waif

I generally picked up on these challenges within the first month or two of the r/s, which had the effect of causing me to keep my guard up and not fall for my dBPDxgf as much as I otherwise could've. However, I stayed on for 7 more months because I felt sorry for her, didn't want to hurt her, wanted to fix her, and got some unhealthy codependent kicks out of her clinginess. (Of course, I was later blindsided by all the cheating, and that did sting.)

Challenge 1: Dishonesty

This was by far the biggest challenge, but also the one that took me the longest to fully identify. The early signs were in the first couple of months where I began to notice that some of her statements about past sexual partners didn't fully add up, but I didn't see it as a  because most people tend to understate their number of past sexual partners. I think it was right at the 2-month mark when I got the first big lie. She had blown me off one night and never responded to any of my texts until the next morning. When I asked her about it, she apologized profusely, but claimed that her phone had died, and that her car charger had broken. She said she was too tired to plug it in long enough to charge to send me a text when she got to her mom's house that night. Of course her phone was on the whole time; we both have iPhones and the iMessages were "delivered". They would've been sent as SMS if her phone had been off like she said. I called her out on this briefly, but let it slide. I wondered why she blew me off, and briefly thought she might've been with another guy, but quickly dismissed it. I thought there was no way someone who was so into me and who stayed over and had sex with me almost everyday would be cheating on me after only 2 months... . 

Challenge 2: Complex FOO Issues

I knew from Day 1 that my ex had "daddy issues" (she just loves older guys) but a lot of perfectly decent girls do too. However, it was only several weeks later that I started to piece together the presence of her "mommy issues" as well. I am certain her mother is uNPD and her father uBPD. My ex was the oldest of 4 (really, 5 but #2 died as a baby), and all 5 kids came out over only a 6 year period. My ex was ignored as a kid, so of course she acted out to get attention, and that acting out resulted in beatings from both of her parents. Her father went away for good when she was about 5, and there would be periods where she would only see him once a year, if that. It is no surprise where the BPD came from. As she grew older she got to see both parents ignore their kids and spend what little money they had on their various (and always significantly younger) lovers. It is no surprise where my ex gets unhealthy r/s expectations from.

The first two times I had sex with my ex she called me "daddy".  This really, really creeped me out. I never mentioned it to her, but for whatever reason she never did that again.

At one point in time (I think around the 4 month mark) she had a severe instance of emotional dysregulation. I think she wanted to confess an affair, but only got as far as saying that she had "cuddled" with an ex when "he tried to kiss" her, before collapsing into a complete sobbing ball of anguish. This was one of those times I really saw her with the mask off. She said all kinds of horrible things about herself (such as that she was a failure, a terrible person, always $%!%'ed things up, hated herself, etc.) and I tried to comfort her as best I could. At one point she just sat up, looked at me (or rather, through me) and pitifully screamed, "I just want a dad!" 

Challenge 3: Too Much Too Soon (I wanted to go with "Past history of promiscuity", but that didn't make the cut!  )

So I met her on Tinder and hooked up with her the same night as our first date. I saw her again the day later and we had full intercourse for the first time. That's pretty rapid, but not really as a big of a  as immediate sex would be for others. "Hooking up" is quite common among young people these days, and (without being too arrogant), I can truthfully say that I frequently can get girls in bed if I want to due to the fact that I am quite attractive and also "know what I am doing."

She said "I love you" pretty quickly too. I think in the second month, or possibly even in the first month. I probably should not have responded with "I love you too", but she sprung it on me right in the middle of sex, so I wasn't about to "derail" things by stopping to have a serious discussion of our r/s health. 

Going forward, she was always trying to move the r/s along too quickly. Talking about marriage, the names of our kids, everything within the first few months of us dating. I constantly told her how inappropriate that was, but she apparently couldn't help herself from entertaining such "fairy tale" fantasies. This was one  that I did notice, and it most definitely made me ever more cautious as the r/s went forward. At first I just thought it was because she was young, until things started getting ridiculous.

[Nextinline]

Relationship length: 4 and a half years

Realisation stage: Very early on, especially the over intensity.

I struggle to break it down to the top 3 as far as the behaviours of my uBPDexgf is concerned. Some of these more directly relate to her and her past history before I was involved with her so I would be only speculating in some ways as to how she behaved in previous relationships.

So I would characterise her with some generic behaviours that relate to how she lived her life and how she interacted with others.

Specifically as far as he own life was concerned:

-Unstable employment history- was very noticeable. Lots of short term jobs, lots of time without a job, no career interest beyond being a kept woman with enough of her own money to buy designer products for herself. Every time the expectations in her workplace increased, she crumbled under the pressure and left.

As far as her interactions with other people were concerned:

- Emotionally immature communicator. She was a high functioning BPD and was brutally abusive and relentless in her verbal arguments with everyone, not just in the relationship, but with any one that was debating an issue with her. She was outright confrontational and, at times, embarrassing to be around as she would bully people into submission just so that they could get away from the verbal abuse and venom that would pour from her mouth. As far as her communications with me... .there were times when I expected to see her head do a 360 degree spin on her body and for her to start to vomit bile (aka Exorcist) style, as there were times when I seriously thought she was possessed by something evil.

As far as her interactions with me were concerned:

- Dishonesty From the time she broke into my phone in the first week of us seeing each other to see what I was doing and who I was talking to, to the amount of times we fought and she left to allegedly go back and stay at her mothers for a few days to "cool off" only to find out that she was never there and that she was somewhere else, with someone else. The secrecy around her own phone and her emails and where she went and what she did... .all of it was about covering her tracks such that I could not find out what it was that she was up to.

As I look back on all of this, as well as the other red flags in the list, I am annoyed at myself for being such a fool to have tolerated it and to have tried to fix the relationship. The red flags just kept on coming. Every one of these red flags are pertinent, from the over intensity, to the anger and rage, to the perpetual victim, to even now where she has destroyed friendships of hers by hitting on their boyfriends (and causing the break up and getting engaged to them in a matter of weeks) and the absolute over dependence on her mother who just promoted every unreasonable behaviour as perfectly normal for her princess.

[hopealways]

What does FOO mean?

[Learning Fast]

Hopealways,

Family Of Origin

LF

[C.Stein]

What does FOO mean?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0

[troisette]

Type: Charming high functioner

Relationship lasted 18 months.

Noticed points 1, 4 and 7 early on, within three months.

Emotionally immature communicator

1. Was like a child, wanted approval; talked a lot about his personal style, his house; himself; needed validation. Frequently spoke of his ex wife and ex partner - giving too much and inappropriate information, ditto about his family; didn't hook into me, didn't ask questions about me; didn't communicate in an adult way. When he discussed things like politics, or cooking, he used colloquial language used in the 1950s (his childhood years), it sounded odd. Liked to lie with his head in my lap, like a child, this okay but maybe not on third real date? Took  umbrage at fairly inoffensive things said by others, perceiving slights. Volunteered inappropriate information about his intimate life with his ex wife and ex partner.

Complex FOO Issues

4. Frequently spoke of his deceased mother, father and brother. I suspected resentment held against them. Mother suffered from Grandiosity Alzheimer's but he also thought that she was grandiose throughout her life. (I also wonder if he has narcissistic tendencies.) Father never showed him any sign of affection throughout his life. He said "I was sh** scared of my father". He kissed his father for the first time when he was dying, his father cried. Father was in the military. Mother did not use physical punishment but told him that she would get his father to punish him, physically, when he arrived home. So anticipation of punishment. Mother seems to have been an attention seeker. Both parents disliked that he had married a non-Caucasian, he often spoke of this with resentment. Brother, 9 years younger, maybe also had a personality disorder? Described by ex as "Peter Pan", his troubles started when he was five. An unruly child, he was left with ex and his wife when he was 14 and the parents were working overseas. Seems he was unboundaried and uncontrollable. Married young, went to US in camper van, wife got fed up and left him. He remarried and lived in the US. A one mile exclusion zone around the house was instigated. (I don't know why.) He went on to commit 4 bank robberies in the US, served a prison sentence, was deported. Apparently charming, witty (like ex). Ex spoke about all three a lot.

Unresolved previous relationships

7. Had an ex wife - marriage lasted 18 years with many infidelities on both sides. She is devalued. He frequently spoke of her disparagingly, always saw himself as the victim. I don't think he has emotionally separated from her - he is not indifferent to her. Former partner of 15 years seems strange. Has a symbiotic relationship with her adult daughter, he blames daughter for the end of their relationship. He idealises former partner, although she seems to be an expert manipulator of him. Lies and financial matters. Still in contact with ex partner, also when necessary with ex wife via idealised younger son. Older son is devalued and has not spoken to his father for several years. Ex frequently talked about older son, seemed to have no understanding or empathy with the problems he had as a child or has as an adult. Ex sometimes questioned if he was his son. Younger, idealised son, is described in glowing terms and lives in a flat owned by his father at reduced rent. I think this may be a means for his father to exert control and keep his son close. This son is fairly immature. Ex seems jealous of his former wife's relationship with the younger son, they seem to have some rivalry for his attention, time and affection.

He always wants to remain friends with former girlfriends. One in particular, a liaison after his divorce, he claims as a good friend but always spoke disparagingly of her to me. They seem to serve each others needs in some odd way.

[SandWitch]

Relationship 13 months

Type? Charmer, His own cheering section yet ironically helpless.

1.  Wanted to move way too quickly sexually.  This is a confusing area as opinions seem to vary on when to move into this area.  For me, I need to wait as it severely compromises my already foggy boundaries.  Constant physical contact.  Also "never wanted to be separated" after first night together.

2. Severe FOO - abused, neglected.  No close friends - acquaintances who did not know the real him.   

3.  Total inability to manage adult affairs.  His wife had done this for him and she had died 8 months earlier.  Me to the rescue!  My bad.

It was not until later that I began to realize that he was a chameleon of sorts and noticed the mirroring which seemed "sweet" at the time.  I am not sure that he has a self as he seems to only identify himself and connect with others sexually.  Everything else seems to be a role he plays. When the role becomes too demanding or boring (not enough adoration or challenges to allow him to solve) he devalues, withdraws and seeks validation elsewhere.  After reading about triangulation I realize that I was not crazy! He was setting me up to be "jealous" so he could berate me and push the open relationship thing.

What did I discover I need to learn?  Take my time.  Find activities that will reveal how this person solves problems, communicates, and handles challenges.     

[troisette]

Since typing my post above I've been thinking and feeling.

It's the first time I've seen it all in writing.

I'm feeling great compassion for him.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Mine has everything on the list except 9, maybe 8.  So this is really hard to narrow down.

My relationship lasted for 4 months.  We were friends about 4 months prior to dating.

1.)  Too much, too soon.  This wasn't with me, but in his description of a previous relationship.  His previous relationship was with a girl he met in a Facebook group.  He got engaged to her after talking to her for 10 days on Facebook messenger and agreed to move across the country to marry her and be a step-parent to her two severely disabled children.  I didn't think anyone in their right mind could possibly do this.  I knew this either very early in the relationship or before we dated.  This is the one I keep kicking myself about, because I really should have bolted right then, but I just liked the guy too much.  I honestly think the story was so far-fetched that I couldn't believe it really played out that way.  I knew about the relationship before we started dating, but the details emerged very slowly over time, because he talked about her pretty much every time we were together.

2.)  Emotionally immature communicator.  This is the one that spoiled the relationship for me.  It became most apparent to me after about 6 weeks.  If I would bring up a challenge in the relationship, he would have horrible anxiety -- so bad I could literally see his heart beating through his shirt -- and he'd threaten to dump me to get away from his anxiety.  So I knew early on that my options for resolving conflicts or unmet needs were extremely limited.  I think the first disagreement that went like this was the writing on the wall, where I knew that a situation like this would eventually end the relationship.

3.) FOO issues.  My ex had an extremely intense but ambivalent relationship with his mother and a handful of other relatives.  His mother was deceased, and he would go back and forth within the same conversation between describing her as an insensitive abuser and his best friend.  He once avoided her entirely for four months.  He missed her, mourned her, rebelled against her in her absence, described her tirades and her good cooking.  It was really a messed up, mixed bag.  I knew that a man who felt that mixed up about his mom was likely to feel that way about women in general, so I knew that the moment I showed anything other than my sweet side, I would be channeling his mom and it would all be over.  I was right on that, too.  Additionally, he has few living relatives, but is estranged from most of them because of fights and drama.

[once removed]

bumping this thread to give it more visibility

[Moselle]

Red flags for me:

1. Cruelty. To self or others.

2. Blaming. Always someone else's fault

3. Intimacy. Always a problem of one kind or another

4. Rage. Uncontrollable and repeated

5. Childish responses

6. Conflict.

7. Running down the street shouting at noisy teenagers. Lol. Happened after 10 years. And I thought "Who is this woman?

8. Violence.

9 Batsh/t crazy parents and siblings.

10. Idolisation

[once removed]

moselle, were these red flags that pertained to your relationship? if so, which three would you say were the most present and when did they appear?

[Moselle]

1. Intimacy problems surfaced on honeymoon. She was my first and I thought that's just how women are. I have since realised how tender and loving women can be.

2. Violence. It started after 10 years and she must have groomed me well for it , because I put up with it for 5 more years.

3. Conflictual conversation. Inability to sustain a co-operative conversation or activity. Started after about 4 years.

[burritoman]

Our relationship lasted roughly 31 months.

She ticks off all of these red flags, but these are the ones that most affected me in the relationship.

over intensity/too much too soon

We were FB friends for a year or so before meeting and she never seemed too directly engaging, but when we finally met it was like a bomb went off. She fell for me HARD, buying me expensive gifts, telling me she loved me, "joking" about marriage. I could go on. At first it felt great because I was finally getting over my past breakup, but after a month or so I realized that I'm now knee deep in a relationship with a new girl who I barely know. Something seemed off but I just went with it.

complex FOO issues

She was raised in a very hostile environment with a drug fiend mother. She was abused by her mother's boyfriends and was exposed to the horrors of addiction. Her step father died when she was very young. She flat told me early on that she has daddy issues and needs a man to take care of her. I had my own issues to deal with, and couldn't be there to nurse her wounds all the time. She told me all of these things in the early stages of getting to know her, I think right after we officially started dating.

unresolved previous relationship(s)

She had an endless supply of ex boyfriends who she would reference. It was always "I once dated a guy who... ." and she always made him out to be the one with the problem. I didn't question how many men she'd been with, but it did irk me that she would bring them up all the time. ESPECIALLY the guy before me, who she first painted to be Satan himself, but over time her story and thoughts about him became more sympathetic. She brought this man up within minutes of first meeting her. Looking back, a suspicious number of her ex boyfriends from even 10 years prior seemed to keep creeping back into her life, reaching out to her seemingly out of nowhere. It would lead to a fight between the two, and I'd tell her to tell him to leave her alone and block the man from her life, but she never did. They'd argue and she'd patronize him to me. Bearing witness to this behavior, and now being the ex, I know better than to reach out to her or try to start things again because she'll treat me the same way she did them.

how did it change your participation/commitment to the relationship?

Overall, I'd say this behavior first had me raising an eyebrow, but I went with it thinking I could fix her. Over time I realized that I always had my guard up around her and wouldn't cave in to her demands.

With the other red flags, she would turn them against me. She wanted to smoke pot with me to bring us closer together, she wanted marriage, she wanted unprotected sex, and wanted to move forward. After all of these pressures and arguing, it made me just throw my hands up in the air and stop trying so hard. I'd get sucked into arguments to where I'd just put the phone down and let her go on and on. If she'd stop talking it would only last for 2-3 seconds before she'd start going again. Same thing with texting. Sometimes I'd get 20 texts in a row, so I had to wait for her to completely stop before carefully responding. My then lack of effort led to her getting more upset. It was a constant downward spiral, occasionally rejuvenated by her acts of "genuine" love. I've seen her cut close friends out of her life because she was sick of seeing their political views on FB, storm out of businesses because she didn't like the attitude the clerks gave her, and get defensive with strangers. On the flip side, she'd be nurturing to animals and empathetic to people in need. With all of the fire in her belly, at the end of the day she'd snuggle up to me and we'd sleep with my arm around her. She was like a hurt child who just needed to be loved.

[once removed]

i wanted to mention that some of the specific attitudes and experiences i had in common with many of you; theres a lot.

right now, if we are keeping score, i notice that Complex FOO issue and Over intensity/Too much too soon are leading. it makes me wonder what this says about us.

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

[burritoman]

i wanted to mention that some of the specific attitudes and experiences i had in common with many of you; theres a lot.

right now, if we are keeping score, i notice that Complex FOO issue and Over intensity/Too much too soon are leading. it makes me wonder what this says about us.

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

Too much too soon didn't seem like a red flag to me because I had a girl who seemed to actually love me, versus the way my previous relationship ended. It started to get irritating, but I didn't see it as a red flag. I thought she was just in love.

As for Complex FOO issues, I had not yet seen how her upbringing affected her personality. I told myself that she had a rough childhood and I can't judge her for that. Besides, look at how well she's done for herself! She could have turned out so much worse!

[kc sunshine]

1. History of volatile relationships (she told me this history early on).

2. Trouble with alcohol-- I realized this later (it wasn't necessarily that she drank too much, she was much more likely to get angry even if she drank just a little, e.g. one beer. 

3. Temper-- I first saw this about 3 months into the relationship (after she had been drinking).

[Skip]

This project is really enlightening... .good work all.

[burritoman]

2. Trouble with alcohol-- I realized this later (it wasn't necessarily that she drank too much, she was much more likely to get angry even if she drank just a little, e.g. one beer. 

Right there with you, KC. The blaming, crying, and "you're not the same man I fell in love with" calls were greatly intensified after even one drink.

[steelwork]

All but #10 resonate.

Three most significant? These are not necessarily the three biggest red flags--just the biggest problems in the relationship. For instance, my ex had a 10-year stint as a junkie (#8), but it was in his past. Similarly, he had a terrible childhood (#4) involving regular beatings and being trapped in a religious cult, but this wasn't a problem for our relationship. I actually found it compelling. To be honest, those things attracted me, because I wanted to know all about the life he'd led.

If I had to name the three that were the biggest challenges... .in order of appearance:

1. over intensity/too much too soon (#2). Pretty much right away, he love-bombed me. Even before that started, I remember looking across the room and meeting his eyes accidentally, and what I saw was HUNGER. A raw sexual invitation. It was only for a second, and I remember thinking: "He must be thinking of someone else."

We did not consummate our affair for several months  because we both had other partners and were trying not to, but even so... .what passed between us was not chemistry; it was PHYSICS. We called it "the ague." It was like eating a bad clam laced with ecstasy. Literally shaking like I had food poisoning, but with pure pleasure. I remember once telling him I was worried FOR HIM, because it felt so much like a drug high and I was worried that somehow it would cause him to relapse with heroin.

2... emotionally immature communicator. This really kicked in at around the 10-month mark--I think because, though he left his wife, I was still with my partner, and thus we were unnaturally stalled in the courtship phase. But there came a time when I realized that he would react explosively to things like me being late for a meeting with him or having to cancel. Even when HE was ALSO late to the meeting, it was my lateness only that was an issue. When HE cancelled, it was not an issue. Once I failed to check in with him when there was a snow storm, and he was really angry about it. That confused the hell out of me.

And when we had "relationship talks" or any kind of conflict he would lash out erratically and illogically. Now I see that he was operating on the level of feelings while I was following something closer to a logical trajectory. Later, he would say how wonderful I was because I talked out conflicts--like this whole concept was completely new to him.

The above two affected the relationship by making me put the brakes on, or drag my feet, or feel in my gut somehow that I should not make the full leap. There were other factors that held me back, things that had to do with me and my life, but it's only in retrospect that I see how my gut told me, "This is not quite right, no matter how good it feels."

3. I have to go with #6: temper. This was at about the 2.5 year mark, when the end came suddenly, in an explosion of unprecedented rage and invective. That was when he told me he was seeing someone else. That wasn't QUITE the end. There was some freezing-out, and then some cat and mouse, and then more rage, and a final freeze-out. But I'd say that sudden, catastrophic anger was what told me there could be no "us" ever--though, still, I hoped and pined and yearned.

But basically, whether this guy has BPD or not, I can't expose myself to that treatment anymore.

If I could pick a fourth, it would be (#9) dishonesty. Because after the break I was left with a mess of weird lies. Like him telling me we had not talked all fall, when in fact we'd been in contact almost daily. That creeped me the hell out. Now that I'm sane again, I can think about that and know for sure that he is not right in the head. Which has the effect of telling me, no, no matter what, never again.

[MakingMyWay]

Relationship was 3 years, 36 months.

1. Complex FOO issues

My ex had a terrible relationship with her mother. She was emotionally abusive and did not make any effort to try to connect emotionally with my ex. It was almost like she was just going through the motions of being a parent. I know this was the case because I saw it personally, so I am not worried that my ex was lying to me about it. One of my ex's siblings got out of there as soon as they could and didn't return until they had children and they felt obliged to allow their mother to be involved. That was also partly due to the mother disliking the woman he married and not approving of having a chinese wedding rather than a catholic wedding... My ex was very bitter about this abandonment by her siblings and blamed her mother almost entirely for it, but also held a grudge against her siblings for abandoning her.  The other was pregnant at 17, but when the child got older and they were comfortable raising him on their own, they dissapeared as well, however came back much sooner than the other sibling. Her father also enabled her mother greatly but was seen as the 'good parent' by my ex.

I realised this almost immediately, I'd estimate about a month in. It made me try to save her from her family, but she didn't want that. I ended up trying to avoid her family because of the picture that she had painted of them.

2. Dishonesty

My ex never really lied to me as far as I know until the end of the relationship, but she lied to her parents all the time, even about very petty stuff. One incident very early on was her trying to justify coming to my house (Her parents were very controlling) by saying she needed to do an assignment on the Vietnam war and that I knew a lot about that topic. Both points were obviously a total lie, but I felt it justified due to the parents being controlling.

This was also fairly early, I'd estimate about 4 months. I told my ex about my concerns with her lying to her family, especially over petty things which they didn't need to be lied to about, but she justified it saying that they were controlling, so I enabled her. I believed she wouldn't lie to me since I was 'different' and she promised she would never lie to me. I should have been more aware of this and set boundaries relating to her lying.

3. history of volatile friendships

My ex had a lot of former friends that she absolutely hated and painted black. She reconnected with one last year and a few others after dumping me, however I don't know if the most recent reconnections were successful. One friend in particular was painted black for 3 years and still is, after she called me ex "a two faced liar". I don't know if that friend saw through my ex's mask or if it was unrelated, but it is interesting to reflect on. My ex left a trail of broken friendships in her wake.

This one took me a while, even though I saw it early on, I tended to believe that these people had wronged my ex. It took about two years to realise that she might have been the problem.

[Moselle]

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

I think we were drawn to it because we were familiar it. From our FOO. People used to healthy relationships in their FOO aren't comfortable with idolisation. For those of us wounded in childhood, idolisation can be intoxicating and the faster it goes, the more we think that we lucked out with the perfect partner.

Of course that's not what's really going on☺. Mr or Miss  BPD is scoping out a personality which he or she would like as their own. A primary attachment figure - That's us - a facility, host, enabler... .for a while

The complex FOO issues for me was also an ego booster. They were the perfect  family... .on the outside and I think I wanted to believe the facade ( who doesn't want to marry the perfect spouse from the perfect family? ) I did.

I guess the age old tradition holds - if it looks too good to be true, it probably is ☺

[JaneStorm]

~16 months.

1. emotionally immature communicator - Definitely him. This was a problem because I love to communicate. The first of many virtues I have that were twisted into weapons against me.

2. over intensity/too much too soon - Maybe both of us. I had been dating after 6 years not dating and he was the one I wanted to put energy into. I did get uncomfortable when he wanted to call every night before bed; checking up on me. I just wanted to see him once/week on Saturday.

3. history of volatile friendships - Absolutely. He questioned why I "had" to know so many people and why I was that insecure. (to love and value my friendships - friends that I did NOT have sex with, which was never an option with him in regard to the opposite sex).

4. complex FOO issues - Yes; his second wife complained he had an unhealthy need to talk to his mom every day. Dad cheated, raged, smoked, drank, and cowered the family. They both died in 2004-2005; mom first and then dad immediately remarried and died.

5. perpetual victim - I played the Lion Tamer/Kiss Your Boo Boo for about 3 months around this and then saw a pattern and called him on it. This was the warning sign from hell. If you are a perpetual victim, you can justify doing whatever you want. Afterall, you are the VICTIM.

6. temper - See above attempts at being a Lion Tamer. My ego kept this going because I could "model" a better way... .until I would get fed up and act unbecomingly in my anger.

7. unresolved previous relationship(s) - #1    Yes, yes, and yes.

8. "a drug problem" - His drug is women. I ended up smoking cigs and drinking too much to make the pain manageable. Old destructive behaviors that made me dislike myself.



10. unstable employment history - Same job for 16 years; his boss tried to warn me at a conference how he is. It was like they felt he finally met The One that could straighten him out. My ego loved that.   He is however, $100,000 in debt, owns nothing, owes the IRS, and won't bankrupt because he feels victimized and he should be entitled to walk away and have a fresh start. #2 big problem for me.

[JaneStorm]

~16 months.

1. emotionally immature communicator - Definitely him. This was a problem because I love to communicate. The first of many virtues I have that were twisted into weapons against me.

2. over intensity/too much too soon - Maybe both of us. I had been dating after 6 years not dating and he was the one I wanted to put energy into. I did get uncomfortable when he wanted to call every night before bed; checking up on me. I just wanted to see him once/week on Saturday.

3. history of volatile friendships - Absolutely. He questioned why I "had" to know so many people and why I was that insecure. (to love and value my friendships - friends that I did NOT have sex with, which was never an option with him in regard to the opposite sex).

4. complex FOO issues - Yes; his second wife complained he had an unhealthy need to talk to his mom every day. Dad cheated, raged, smoked, drank, and cowered the family. They both died in 2004-2005; mom first and then dad immediately remarried and died.

5. perpetual victim - I played the Lion Tamer/Kiss Your Boo Boo for about 3 months around this and then saw a pattern and called him on it. This was the warning sign from hell. If you are a perpetual victim, you can justify doing whatever you want. Afterall, you are the VICTIM.

6. temper - See above attempts at being a Lion Tamer. My ego kept this going because I could "model" a better way... .until I would get fed up and act unbecomingly in my anger.

7. unresolved previous relationship(s) - #1    Yes, yes, and yes.

8. "a drug problem" - His drug is women. I ended up smoking cigs and drinking too much to make the pain manageable. Old destructive behaviors that made me dislike myself.



10. unstable employment history - Same job for 16 years; his boss tried to warn me at a conference how he is. It was like they felt he finally met The One that could straighten him out. My ego loved that.   He is however, $100,000 in debt, owns nothing, owes the IRS, and won't bankrupt because he feels victimized and he should be entitled to walk away and have a fresh start. #2 big problem for me.

How could I have missed 9? Dishonesty - This was as frequent as eating with him. This is what kept me from believing his tales of love and marriage. My personal core values include integrity and honesty. I always knew we would not make it from the first lie.

[once removed]

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

I think we were drawn to it because we were familiar it. From our FOO. People used to healthy relationships in their FOO aren't comfortable with idolisation. For those of us wounded in childhood, idolisation can be intoxicating and the faster it goes, the more we think that we lucked out with the perfect partner.

Of course that's not what's really going on☺. Mr or Miss  BPD is scoping out a personality which he or she would like as their own. A primary attachment figure - That's us - a facility, host, enabler... .for a while

The complex FOO issues for me was also an ego booster. They were the perfect  family... .on the outside and I think I wanted to believe the facade ( who doesn't want to marry the perfect spouse from the perfect family? ) I did.

I guess the age old tradition holds - if it looks too good to be true, it probably is ☺

Complex FOO issues is more complicated for me than over intensity/too much too soon. it was familiar, but not to my own FOO. idealization did make me uncomfortable, which is NOT to say i wasnt drawn to it on any level.

with the over intensity/too much too soon, its that she "said the right things" that caused me to lower my guard. for example, like hashtag_loyal, she told me she loved me in an intimate moment. i was like   and though i said it back, i think she realized i was hesitant. afterward she apologized for springing it on me in that situation, but insisted she meant it. the seeming self awareness followed by reassurance appealed to me. she also told me that loving me made her realize shed never really loved any of her exes, which also very much appealed to me. in other words, it was over the top, but it had a very direct appeal to my own narcissism, and sense of purpose in a relationship, and i rationalized or overlooked a lot.

as i mentioned, all of my exes had (largely the same) complex foo issues. before my BPD relationship, i dont think it was a conscious red flag for me, though. i did doubt the truth of what all my exes would say. it was definitely not consciously something that drew me in. im not sure it was unconciously either.

i guess when i look at it, i draw many comparisons and parallels between my exes, connections an outside observer might not make. i have long realized there is, very generally, something off about who and what im attracted to/prone to a relationship with. if they ALL have these complex foo issues, it may be not that im attracted to that issue or dynamic, but its still a glaring pattern in my relationships. it is something that, in the future, can be pretty easily spotted and avoided, and i am committed to the idea that it will be a red flag that i will heed.

edit: when i think about over the top intensity/too much too soon, i dont know if theres a timeline on how soon its "okay" to fall in love with someone, and the thing is, it doesnt matter. maybe my future partner will fall first, or say it first. maybe she will say it early. whats more important to me now is taking it slow for the sake of taking it slow, and whether or not she is capable of that; whether there is growth and a building of trust and intimacy over time.

[bruceli]

i wanted to mention that some of the specific attitudes and experiences i had in common with many of you; theres a lot.

right now, if we are keeping score, i notice that Complex FOO issue and Over intensity/Too much too soon are leading. it makes me wonder what this says about us.

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

Because much like smoking, french fries and chocolate... .Somethings are just too good to pass up even if we know they are not good for us.

[bruceli]

1)  Too much too soon.  Said she loved me and talked about marriage in the first three days of knowing each other.  Now when it is mentioned, gaslight and says it was me who talked about it.

2)  Major Foo issues. Never knew her father and hated her mother with a passion. Remained NC with her mom for 25 years I until the week she died.

3)  Extreme anger issues. Of all the PD's I have encountered, the most violent, physically, verbally and emotionally abusive.

[once removed]

i wanted to mention that some of the specific attitudes and experiences i had in common with many of you; theres a lot.

right now, if we are keeping score, i notice that Complex FOO issue and Over intensity/Too much too soon are leading. it makes me wonder what this says about us.

if over intensity/too much too soon was a red flag, why was it not one that we heeded? im sure answers are unique, i just wonder on what level we were also drawn to it. i think that i was on a few levels.

same question with Complex FOO issues and why we didnt heed it (if we came into the relationship considering it one). were we drawn to this dynamic too, on some level?

what do you think?

Because much like smoking, french fries and chocolate... .Somethings are just too good to pass up even if we know they are not good for us.

thats a good point, and theres truth to it in my case. before we were together, she was something of a prize to obtain. having her fall for me seemed like such an accomplishment almost no matter what came with it. there were red flags before her; i told myself id be able to walk away if need be and i told myself that through the entire relationship. its the most perverse sense of security ive ever felt.