We agreed that I would give her time and space for a month

[MapleBob]

She may have a fear of intimacy that is co-mingled with her fear of abandonment.

Well, that's almost certainly true. Hard to get through one without triggering the other. 

[livednlearned]

I think the long distance makes this particularly tough. She can manage her fears very easily by deciding whether to pick up the phone, or not.

That puts you in a really tough position.

[MapleBob]

I think the long distance makes this particularly tough. She can manage her fears very easily by deciding whether to pick up the phone, or not.

That puts you in a really tough position.

Explain?

[livednlearned]

She is in the tower in the castle, and can lower the drawbridge when she wants. You are outside the moat.

She lowers it a bit, talks about lowering it, brings it back up, talks about how she wants to lower it. Watches to see what you do. Wants you to stop waiting there. Wishes she could let you in. Can't let you in.

Meanwhile, you're outside.

It puts you in a weak position, and that is not a good place to be with someone who is BPD. Your options to be strong seem limited here. One: do not engage about the relationship during calls with her. Two: tell her you are moving on.

Are they other options?

[MapleBob]

That is SO MUCH like a metaphor I've used with her! I've said that it's more like she's behind doors with elaborate locks that she expects someone to be able to open, when she could just open them herself!

It's true: not a lot of options here. Settle for less and hope it gets better, or settle for none and be able to at least know that it's over. But I feel like it'll never be totally over with her. Even during the breakup she was constantly saying "I'll be in touch somewhere down the road", just like she's always saying "talk once a month *for now*" in the present. Ugh.

[livednlearned]

That is SO MUCH like a metaphor I've used with her! I've said that it's more like she's behind doors with elaborate locks that she expects someone to be able to open, when she could just open them herself!

It's true: not a lot of options here. Settle for less and hope it gets better, or settle for none and be able to at least know that it's over. But I feel like it'll never be totally over with her. Even during the breakup she was constantly saying "I'll be in touch somewhere down the road", just like she's always saying "talk once a month *for now*" in the present. Ugh.

This is underestimating the fear in her fear of intimacy.

Fear of intimacy in an intimate relationship can feel like annihilation.

It's that powerful.

[MapleBob]

This is underestimating the fear in her fear of intimacy.

Fear of intimacy in an intimate relationship can feel like annihilation.

It's that powerful.

I'm sure it must be terrifying for someone with abandonment AND intimacy issues to know that I've seen her at her very worst and stayed and loved her anyway. She's done and said straight-up f**cked-up things too, and voices assumptions about me that are patently false and have been proven so, and I'm still here, and I still love her. Because I know who I am, and nobody's opinion or assumption is going to change that. That's what she *desperately* wants for herself: calm self-assuredness, so yeah, it must be pretty hard for her to feel like she can get on my level sometimes. I'm a walking/talking/loving-her metaphor for her own inadequacy. And she's hurt me, and is genuinely apologetic. There's actually a funny pattern I've noticed: when I actually start to lose my cool and be like "hey, X behavior/thing you said, it sucks and it hurts me and I'm trying here, so come on", she responds pretty well.

[livednlearned]

 

Because you are showing her boundaries. It's possible to show boundaries without losing our cool. In fact, when you have a handle on them, it's much less likely to happen because other skills are available.

Giving up too much of ourselves in these relationships comes across as weak. We become devalued. We teach others that it's ok to devalue us, and then wonder why we're being devalued 

[MapleBob]

Because you are showing her boundaries. It's possible to show boundaries without losing our cool. In fact, when you have a handle on them, it's much less likely to happen because other skills are available.

Giving up too much of ourselves in these relationships comes across as weak. We become devalued. We teach others that it's ok to devalue us, and then wonder why we're being devalued 

I'll give that some thought/research! It's a pretty fine line.

[MapleBob]

I suspect that what I'm going to get when I talk to her this weekend will be "we should say goodbye, for a while at least, UNLESS YOU CAN SELL ME ON A BETTER IDEA... ." So I need to have a response for that, a Plan B.

[livednlearned]

How would you feel about saying, "Ok."

Or, "I understand. I'm sorry about it, and I'll miss talking to you. You know how I feel."

I'm thinking about my mom here. She is a very generous, very kind, very loving yet codependent person. It is so easy to dismiss her or walk all over her because she equates having no boundaries with love. As a result, I feel bad when I'm around her. I love her, I also have some disdain for the way she allows everyone in our family, myself included, to disrespect her. I am the one who has to have twice the boundaries in our relationship because she cannot assert her own, and frankly that is a lot of work. I need to take breaks because the effort becomes exhausting.

That's why I was suggesting that you try something small with your ex, assert a boundary to show that you can -- for example, don't talk about the relationship. Can you do that?

[MapleBob]

I've thought about saying "okay", but it's not "okay."

Not talking about the relationship is easier to contemplate.

[MapleBob]

She really wants a plan, though, and it sounds like she wants definitions.

[MapleBob]

Am I a complete idiot for still being there for her? This is a girl who got all disappointed and angry that I didn't show up at her house 300 miles away in another country to win her back after SHE broke up with ME. 

[livednlearned]

Why not see how it goes, having a boundary with her. Contemplate holding that boundary with her during the call. See what happens -- this is a new strategy. You might discover there is a shift in the dynamic that is positive, you never know.

If you were to be with her long term, having boundaries is essential. Essential.

Even just practicing them now will help you locate your own strength. You do have agency in this dynamic.

[MapleBob]

Why not see how it goes, having a boundary with her. Contemplate holding that boundary with her during the call. See what happens -- this is a new strategy. You might discover there is a shift in the dynamic that is positive, you never know.

If you were to be with her long term, having boundaries is essential. Essential.

Even just practicing them now will help you locate your own strength. You do have agency in this dynamic.

I'm interested in trying that. We actually have a Saturday "text to check-in" / Sunday "phone conversation" planned. I guess I could tell her on Saturday that I don't want to talk about or make decisions about our relationship or stuff from the past right now, until things settle down. I'd rather hear about her life and break the ice and have some laughs instead anyway. That might open things up a little.

[Skip]

"I don't think we want to be friends with each other. I think we want to be together but we can't be anymore so we are doing this f**ked up thing," which she then clarified to ":)on't read into it too much, please. I meant that I feel we aren't good at loving each other in a friendship way. And I absolutely do not want to be together now. Just to be 100% clear," but then we ended the conversation with "I get your frustration. I AM impossible. And I don't know why. I'm trying (really!) to let go of being angry and sad, but it's slowwwww," and "I love you. I'm not really an a**hole, I swear. I'll talk to you soon.  "

'Bob,

This is hard stuff. She's been increasingly pulling away for two months and is saying "I absolutely do not want to be together now - just to be 100% clear". I think where this is headed in pretty clear. You're in stage "RED" on the emergency response scale.    

You don't have a lot of moves to make here. One thing for sure, doing more of the same is not going to help. If you want to keep this from going off the cliff, you need a new plan today.

She say's she is angry and sad. What is she angry and sad about? What is this idea about a "plan" - a plan for what, exactly? . Can you explain this a little more?

Skip

[MapleBob]

This is hard stuff. She's been increasingly pulling away for two months and is saying "I absolutely do not want to be together now - just to be 100% clear". I think where this is headed in pretty clear. You're in stage "RED" on the emergency response scale.    

You don't have a lot of moves to make here. One thing for sure, doing more of the same is not going to help. If you want to keep this from going off the cliff, you need a new plan today.

She say's she is angry and sad. What is she angry and sad about? What is this idea about a "plan" - a plan for what, exactly? . Can you explain this a little more?

Yes, it's very alarming! Especially when she's ALSO saying that she loves me and wants to know me and wants to keep me and that she's "supposed to have me in her life, she just knows it" and that, despite the increasing pulling away/pushing away behaviors, she's still thinking and feeling and obsessing over our relationship!

She's angry and sad about the things that have come to pass between us, and the things that have been said, but mainly what I hear (once she's exhausted herself usually) is that she can tell that I love her, she can see that I love her, but she can't FEEL that love. It's hard to know why exactly, or what even to make of that, but my assumption is that she was desperately, impatiently, and codependently in love with me, and that she wanted me to move there and be with her, but it was taking time, and required her to make some sacrifices for me, and to reach out of her comfort zone in certain ways. On my end, I had to be very strategic and calming and solid, and I guess that doesn't look enough like wild crazy codependent love, especially long distance? I don't know, I've never understood that part. To hear her narrative: we had a great 3-6 months at first, then things got "real" and the obstacles became clear, and she needed someone to blame and that guy was me, so I got devalued. (She didn't vocalize any of this to me at the time, by the way.)  I didn't change my approach from day one - I just increasingly heard the kind of non-committal, nitpicky complaints that were dealt with in the moment. I read about the classic "here's the pattern of a BPD relationship" and it was *exactly* what I experienced: fantasy "on a pedestal" whirlwind romance > clinging needy behavior with little actual basis for its necessity > splitting > devalue > ditch the relationship, but leave the options open.

As far as a plan goes: it seems like she wants to be able to have a casual friendship with me where she remains calm, feels independent, and no one is hurting over too much or too little contact. I also get the sense that maybe that casual friendship could progress into more some day, but she doesn't want that to be an *expectation*.

Granted, this has been going on for ten months now, and there is evidence to contradict probably everything I've just stated, and to confirm it.

[Skip]

So she wanted you to be wildly and "throw caution to the wind" in love with her and that bubble has burst. This is a pretty common the pwBPD scenario.  She idealized the relationship (unrealistically) and is hugely let down.  You responded to it by justifying its reality which, unknown to you, was systematically invalidating her and making demands. She knows there are good things about the relationship - but the fantasy has died - and she has pulled back. You responded by pulling and getting a clingy... .

I hate to use the word clingy, but I know no man wants to be considered clingy, so it makes the point.

This does not sound totally lost, yet, but you probably need to change your tactics significantly and fast. The pending phone call is teed up for a let down. You don't want to consummate that.

One tactic is to ask for space (not decisions). Drop all discussion of the "relationship". Focus on making whatever time she gives you, fun. Take all the pressure off without saying, I'm taking all the pressure off (saying it is pressure).

One really important thing - do this in a way that you are not a doormat or a puppy waiting for scrapes from the dinner table. Do it with strength, benevolence, compassion. Be a awesome good guy.

Change the game. She is more likely to respond positively to this than that track you are own. It takes strength.

Just an idea... .

Skip

P.S. Spend some of that time here learning the tools and assessing your long term relationship goals.

[MapleBob]

Anybody else agree with Skip? I'm buying into taking the pressure off, not discussing the relationship, taking a breather with lighter communication... .*doing* the relationship as it is right now, and moving it to a safer place. For starters.

Now what if she comes at it with a hard-nosed "I'm saying goodbye to you tomorrow" approach? Just accept that maybe it's too late? "I don't want that, but okay," sort of thing?

[Skip]

Now what if she comes at it with a hard-nosed "I'm saying goodbye to you tomorrow" approach? Just accept that maybe it's too late? "I don't want that, but okay," sort of thing?

Be positive about it and make it about her and don't put cement on it or cast a life-net. "I want you to do whats right for you right now. You deserve that." Avoid "have a great life", "I'll always love you", or "give me another chance". This will have the most positive effect of this situation. You can come here after and share with us.

I'm buying into taking the pressure off, not discussing the relationship, taking a breather with lighter communication... .*doing* the relationship as it is right now, and moving it to a safer place. For starters.

Can you get this done and sidestep the showdown?

How does it work with the two of you? You schedule text times and phones otherwise no communication?

[MapleBob]

It's going to be really hard to validate her walking away.  :'(

Yes, for the past couple of months it's been "let's talk around X date", text closer to that date to confirm and see where things are at, then phone conversation. No contact in between. Still Facebook/Instagram connected, etc.

I might be able to side-step the showdown, yes. I think that could be done, with the right approach. "Hey, I've been thinking... .Things have been hard, and I'd like to just have a nice conversation with you, get the update on your life, etc. I miss that, and some calm talk between us could really help." Not like that exactly, but you know. Drop the pressure, invite some calm interaction, be prepared to not "go there" or let it "go there".

[Skip]

Just an side question here - is this pressure for you to step up in the relationship?  Is the "plan" about marrying her or some higher level of commitment?

[MapleBob]

Just an side question here - is this pressure for you to step up in the relationship?  Is the "plan" about marrying her or some higher level of commitment?

No no, not at all. At least I don't think so. I think "the plan" is how she's referring to the process of stabilizing this relationship, into a place where it feels good for both of us, and is reliable and not trapped in circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less. She uses the word "calm" a lot.

And yeah, I get it: I can't give her calm (and certainly not by processing relationship matters). I can only remain calm, validate, and roll with it.

[steve195915]

Anybody else agree with Skip? I'm buying into taking the pressure off, not discussing the relationship, taking a breather with lighter communication... .*doing* the relationship as it is right now, and moving it to a safer place. For starters.

Now what if she comes at it with a hard-nosed "I'm saying goodbye to you tomorrow" approach? Just accept that maybe it's too late? "I don't want that, but okay," sort of thing?

I definitely feel that pressuring her to make decisions on the relationship will most likely make her run the other way.  I understand completely your view in that you'd like some resolution no matter what it is so you can move in a particular direction but you have to be patient if you want a relationship with her.  So yes tell her you care and are there for her and always will be, that she can contact you anytime if she wants to talk or just wants someone to listen, that you think she is wonderful and has so much to offer.  Then have the lighter communication, show an interest in getting to know her better, show her your humor, intelligence, but mostly show that you are interested in her interests.  If you do that will all of a sudden she want to be with you?  Probably not, but in time she may gravitate towards you.  She will think of you as a place for support, comfort, safety, and a real friend. If she responds with mean things and says she never wants to talk to you, that she's done with you, just respond kindly and reiterate that you care for her and aren't giving up on her and will always be there for her.  Then leave it at that and know that you did all you can. 

[Skip]

I think "the plan" is how she's referring to the process of stabilizing this relationship, into a place where it feels good for both of us, and is reliable and not trapped in circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less. She uses the word "calm" a lot.

And yeah, I get it: I can't give her calm (and certainly not by processing relationship matters). I can only remain calm, validate, and roll with it.

On way to sidestep this (described above) is to apologize via text and take the blame for your part  in the "circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less" (not to be defined - that's complicated) and tell her you just want to let go of your dialog that, in the scheme of things, really isn't important. You appreciate her for who she is. You can even comment on how you can get mired and not see the forest for the trees. Obviously, I not scripting you, just tossing out ideas.

When you get on the phone, have something interesting to talk about (outside of the relationship), agree with what she wants, make no demands (or more importantly, impart no guilt) and end the call on a positive note at the first lull. Don't prompt her with "I love yous", that often demands a returned "I love you" which is pressure or I'll always be there for you which is guilting. Listen to her, and be supportive. Don't talk about future call frequency... .no demands. Basically, take all the objections away and forfeit all control. And then wait for her to contact you.

Crazy?

Think about the alternative. If you stay on the path you are on, even with adjustments, you are going to end up with Auf Wiedersehen (or you will be taking one step closer to it).

This approach is totally disarming. She can't fight it. She can't be mad. She can only be cautious (is this too good to be true). She will get off the phone feeling positive about herself. Hopefully that will translate to healing the anger and getting back. That will take a little time depending on how angry she is - and how much she needs proof that you meant what you said.

Read this, it will give you a sense of how much things have eroded and how significant an action is needed to recover to baseline (stage 1):

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Lastly, I am not telling you to be a doormat, or be weak, or have bad boundaries. I'm saying stand confident, be strong, end the drama, give her time to see the guy she was crazy about in the beginning.

While your waiting this out, work the boards here - for relationship skills and to sort out what has been happening in your relationship.

[MapleBob]

... .If you do that will all of a sudden she want to be with you?  Probably not, but in time she may gravitate towards you.  She will think of you as a place for support, comfort, safety, and a real friend. If she responds with mean things and says she never wants to talk to you, that she's done with you, just respond kindly and reiterate that you care for her and aren't giving up on her and will always be there for her.  Then leave it at that and know that you did all you can. 

I *have* been pressuring (didn't know better at the time), but other than that I feel like I have been trying to do this. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. She has said from time to time that she gets more out of talking to me than she does from talking to her therapist! She acknowledges that I'm a good guy and a good person. I think this is more about "oh my god, I'm treating you so badly, why are you still here?, I'm a failure and an a**hole, you should go be happy and forget about me, etc." Like I'm making the right moves, but she isn't; and she knows it, and feels like a disappointment. And yes, I've been disappointed! Breakups - especially really confusing open-ended ones - are really disappointing!

On way to sidestep this (described above) is to apologize via text and take the blame for your part  in the "circular arguments/pressure/guilt/wanting more/wanting less" (not to be defined - that's complicated) and tell her you just want to let go of your dialog that, in the scheme of things, really isn't important. You appreciate her for who she is. You can even comment on how you can get mired and not see the forest for the trees. Obviously, I not scripting you, just tossing out ideas.

When you get on the phone, have something interesting to talk about (outside of the relationship), agree with what she wants, make no demands (or more importantly, impart no guilt) and end the call on a positive note at the first lull. Don't prompt her with "I love yous", that often demands a returned "I love you" which is pressure or I'll always be there for you which is guilting. Listen to her, and be supportive. Don't talk about future call frequency... .no demands. Basically, take all the objections away and forfeit all control. And then wait for her to contact you.

This approach is totally disarming. She can't fight it. She can't be mad. She can only be cautious (is this too good to be true). She will get off the phone feeling positive about herself. Hopefully that will translate to healing the anger and getting back. That will take a little time depending on how angry she is - and how much she needs proof that you meant what you said.

Wait, what message exactly am I trying to impart here? Taking responsibility for my part, apologizing, and surrendering? (<--- I don't necessarily feel negatively about that.) Leaving the ball in her court with no pressure for her to pick it up? After giving her a nice, stimulating conversation? I like that!

Read this, it will give you a sense of how much things have eroded and how significant an action is needed to recover to baseline (stage 1):

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Yeah, that's pretty grim. She's definitely been stonewalling for the past two months. It's funny because we wrote these letters to each other just before that happened. We wrote one set of letters to get out all of the angry/sad things that we hadn't said, then we wrote letters about how much/what we loved about each other and our time together. She had the strangest reaction to these letters: the angry/sad ones seemed to make her more committed and more apologetic and more present. After we did the loving ones she got REALLY angry - mostly to the tune of "yeah, things were really great, but really awful things happened too! I can't just forget them, they don't just cancel each other out! It's like you expect me to make a choice between them!" When really all I wanted was things mutually out on the table and a chance to feel better and emphasize the positives (there were reasons for that at the time: we had been getting along pretty well and then she suddenly got super angry with me out of nowhere, and I felt that we should talk about it). That's when she started really pulling away and acting out and stonewalling.

Lastly, I am not telling you to be a doormat, or be weak, or have bad boundaries. I'm saying stand confident, be strong, end the drama, give her time to see the guy she was crazy about in the beginning.

Yeah, it IS going to have to be me who ends the drama, isn't it? That's going to take some pretty firm boundaries, and I hope that it isn't already too late for that to work. I guess I just have to be the adult here, but not appear to be "being the adult" necessarily.

[Skip]

When the current tactic isn't working, change it:



BTW, while all the things we discussed will help in a crisis, you will want to start the work necessary to be able to deal with the problems that landed you here.

[MapleBob]

BTW, while all the things we discussed will help in a crisis, you will want to start the work necessary to be able to deal with the problems that landed you here.

That's a thing that is happening. I may have gotten things out of order, and hoped that some quick-fix things would have worked (they have before). She didn't really take any solution-based talk to heart. Probably because the air hasn't been cleared yet, and safety was/is still an issue.

Boy I've really been through the ringer here with her, huh?

[MapleBob]

Oh, question: so say I invite her to just have a nice, non-relationship-processing talk with me on Sunday... .Should I text her that intention soon, or wait to hear from her on Saturday? Saturday could be the day she potentially tells me that she wants to say goodbye on Sunday.