Controlling style: tantalizing

[formflier]

             

FF I feel much better now that I've been able to stand my ground and I appreciate what he's able to give me in the present while rejecting fantasizing about the future.  

               I've been trying to use the word "assertive" in my mind for how I will present myself and advocate for things.  ":)emand" seems a little strong  "stand my ground" is interesting.  I like the visual of you protecting your boundaries and your stuff.  He can do what he wants but you will be standing your ground.                

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[unicorn2014]

Yes I will stand my ground about living in the present and if he wants to talk about the future I will either redirect or end the conversation.

---

Now I still am having the problem of him telling me he misses me every day all day. I don't miss him at least not the way things used to be. I have no interest in going back to the way things used to be and until he can change something, there's no missing him for me. I don't know what to say when he tells me he misses me so I say nothing but it irritates me and I want to tell him to stop.

[formflier]

  Now I still am having the problem of him telling me he misses me every day all day. I don't miss him at least not the way things used to be. I have no interest in going back to the way things used to be and until he can change something, there's no missing him for me. I don't know what to say when he tells me he misses me so I say nothing but it irritates me and I want to tell him to stop.  

               I would recommend being gentle with him missing you.  That is a positive thing for him to be saying, it is a real emotion for him.  Much different than him making all those comments about sleeping with you and some others things like that ( I don't remember exactly what all he was saying, but it was over the top)  Granted, once he has said it a couple times, I see how it can get old.  How many times does he say it?  (lets say in a day's time)                

FF  

[Grey Kitty]

Now I still am having the problem of him telling me he misses me every day all day. I don't miss him at least not the way things used to be. I have no interest in going back to the way things used to be and until he can change something, there's no missing him for me.

Sounds like you don't trust him when he says he misses you. Do you think what he misses is some fantasy life with you/fantasy version of you, instead of the real person? If so, I can see how that would feel uncomfortable/unpleasant for you.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, a few times a day.

GreyKitty, oh I trust him all right, like I said I resent him for building a life with me before he was divorced so I don't miss him. He came and stayed in my apartment and slept in my bed meanwhile unknown to me his divorce hadn't even been filed. That means he was having one relationship while I was having another. Like I said I have a huge resentment against him for dining me out, and taking me to hotels and buying me dresses and toys and jewelry and meanwhile he hasn't even filed for divorce. My aunt once made a comment about me being a kept woman and it cut to the bone. Even my mom said he was being unethical. So when he says he misses me he reminds me of all those bad times, which he thinks are good times because they felt good to him.

No I am much happier with the way things are now, I don't miss him at all. I'll be happy to see him when he gets divorce papers, but not until then.

[Grey Kitty]

unicorn, what I meant when I said perhaps you don't trust his telling you he misses you wasn't not trusting him with a capitol T. (Although you have raised some valid concerns about that!)

What I meant was not hearing his "I miss you" as being a statement that he misses who you really are. Instead hearing that he misses his fantasy version of who he thinks you are / wishes you are / etc.

[unicorn2014]

Grey Kitty, oh he misses me, he knows exactly who I am. That's whats bothering me, he had a relationship with me when he had no right to. I think someone here said he defrauded me. That's what I'm angry about. I don't think he has a right to miss me. I'm mad at him for missing me because I  think he's out of line to miss me. Does that make sense? I'm mad at him for initiating and conducting a relationship with me while he was still married and before he filed for divorce. I don't care if it wasn't his fault the divorce wasn't filed with the court, its still his responsibility, the ball is still in  his court. That wasn't my job, that was his job. He did fail me and he did disappoint me and I also hate it when he says either he hopes he doesn't disappoint me or he's sorry he disappointed me because he did, big time. Of course that's in the past now and I have to get over it, however it brings it up when he tells me he misses me. I feel like telling him he has no right to miss me because he never should been with me in the first place.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm mad at him for missing me because I  think he's out of line to miss me. Does that make sense? I'm mad at him for initiating and conducting a relationship with me while he was still married and before he filed for divorce.

... .

I feel like telling him he has no right to miss me because he never should been with me in the first place.

All feelings are valid. Yours certainly are. And I'd say your anger is justified as well.

However his feelings (missing you) are also valid. They won't go away just because he has no right to that feeling... .and the feelings won't go away because you tell him this kind of thing either. (You won't stop being angry; he won't stop missing you)

In this area, I think that sharing those feelings with him is err ... .probably a bad risk ... .I'd think harder about what you are trying to accomplish and whether a good outcome is possible or likely.

Meanwhile... .don't encourage him to be telling you how much he misses you 'cuz it reminds you how angry you are about how he got you into this relationship.

[formflier]

  Couple big things jumped out at it.  1.  You don't have to get over it.  You have a choice, it's completely up to you.   2.  He can feel however he wants to feel.  His feelings are NEVER wrong.  3.  Good news, your feelings are NEVER wrong either.  Best to stay away from spending much time on your opinions about his feelings and his opinions about your feelings.  

[unicorn2014]

Grey kitty how do I discourage him? He also likes to tell me how much he enjoys being in a relationship with me, how much he likes me, how much he likes being with me, how we're  well suited to each other,  how he can't imagine being without me.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier what would it benefit me not to get over it?

[waverider]

Formflier what would it benefit me not to get over it?

You wouldn't be overriding your values. That is the choice. Sometimes you can get over things only to regret later. Only you know what the priorities are.

It is easier to palate a choice when you are aware, and discarded, the alternative. As opposed to thinking it is your only option, which leaves resentment

[waverider]

It is also important to keep in mind that generosity, gift giving and grand gestures are not always as selfless as they seem. Often they are as much about creating an impression (charming) in order to gain approval... ie bottom line motivation is receiving, not giving

[formflier]

Formflier what would it benefit me not to get over it?  

                That is up to you to establish the benefit or lack of it.  You are the only one involved in that.  I don't have enough info to give details.  The critical thing is that You always have choices about what you do in your r/s.  If you have the choice, then you have power in your r/s.  If you don't have choices then it is very easy to slip into victim mode.  That is no good for long term staying in a r/s with a pwBPD  I haven't liked all of the choices that I have made in my r/s, but I made them.  Those choices aren't my wife's "fault".                 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Grey kitty how do I discourage him? He also likes to tell me how much he enjoys being in a relationship with me, how much he likes me, how much he likes being with me, how we're  well suited to each other,  how he can't imagine being without me.

I think I said "not encourage him" as opposed to "discourage him" and thinking about it that was intentional--I don't see any way you can discourage him without it coming off as rejection for him. Maybe there is a way, but I don't know what it is.

You know... .you are in the unfortunate position of having very mixed feelings about him right now.

You like him, love him, and want him in your life. AND you are angry at him over the past deceit, and don't want him on the terms currently available, where you feel like the "other woman". [At least that is what I'm reading]

So if you are honest and vulnerable with him, you are sharing those conflicted feelings, which comes out as a rather mixed message... .and nobody likes either giving or receiving a mixed message.

Add to that his BPD, which gives him far less understanding and tolerance of ambiguity and such things--his mind really wants to either paint you and the relationship 100% black or 100% white... .and neither fits reality, and both feel kinda uncomfortable to you, because they aren't a real reflection of who you are or what you are feeling.

Ugh. I wish I had a better suggestion about what to do with all his expressions of love... .but I don't.

I guess my suggestion is for you to give yourself more time to sit with your feelings... .in all their glorious confusing conflicted directions.    I know that is tough work.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier what would it benefit me not to get over it?

You wouldn't be overriding your values. That is the choice. Sometimes you can get over things only to regret later. Only you know what the priorities are.

It is easier to palate a choice when you are aware, and discarded, the alternative. As opposed to thinking it is your only option, which leaves resentment

I see, so I have a choice to leave the relationship. Yes I do, and when I think about that choice I'm not ready to make it yet. While I'm not happy with the relationship, I do not want to go back to the way things were before. I will think about this though.

[formflier]

  I see, so I have a choice to leave the relationship. Yes I do, and when I think about that choice I'm not ready to make it yet. While I'm not happy with the relationship, I do not want to go back to the way things were before. I will think about this though.  

               I think you are about 3/4 of the way there.  You are owning the choice to staying in the r/s and accepting the "warts" that some with that choice.  You have the power.      The last 1/4 (that I see for now) is that there is a bit of a false choice in saying "I don't want to go back to the way things were before".  The past is over, you can't go back.  Even if you set up the exact same conditions it will be different.  You are stronger now, and are taking control of your life.  Unicorn, Do you like movies?  I like to use movie analogies a lot to make my point.  My previous attempts to use those analogies with you seem to have fallen flat        So, of course I will keep trying.  Anyway, have you seen the matrix?  There was a choice offered early on.  Take one pill and things would stay the same, take the other pill and you become more self aware (probably not getting the movie line exactly right).  Anyway, you can't go back.  You have taken the pill to become more self aware and you are starting to see the world through different eyes.                 

FF  

[unicorn2014]

Formflier what would it benefit me not to get over it?

That is up to you to establish the benefit or lack of it.  You are the only one involved in that.  I don't have enough info to give details.

The critical thing is that You always have choices about what you do in your r/s.

If you have the choice, then you have power in your r/s.

If you don't have choices then it is very easy to slip into victim mode.  That is no good for long term staying in a r/s with a pwBPD

I haven't liked all of the choices that I have made in my r/s, but I made them.  Those choices aren't my wife's "fault". 

FF

Yes I understand I chose to stay and I could also choose to leave, which as I told waverider I'm not ready to do yet. I find my SO behavior annoying but that doesn't mean I want to leave the relationship over it, yet.

---

Another thing I find annoying is he always wants to talk to me, in the morning after my daughter leaves for school, in the afternoon, in the evening. He always wants to be connected to me. It really gets on my nerves. That's what led us to get in an argument one time when I told him he treats me like a comfort object. I know better then to say that again, however I still feel the same. It is like I am his sole source of comfort in this world on a human level, or being connected to me is some kind of pain reliever for him. He used to talk about bonding hormones when he used to come see me. He claims he is bonded with me and that is why he will never leave me. He was very offended when I told him sex was no guarantee or indicator of anything. I think he attributes a lot more importance to sex then I did, I am sure of it. I think he is very emotionally immature, at least when it comes to an intimate relationship.

---

I am also still mad about the security he said he would provide  me although I know that's not his responsibility and I told him that. He thought because he was committed to me that somehow he was married to me and I bought it hook, line and sinker because I didn't know any better. My first husband treated marriage very lightly as did my dad. This gets into the deeper issue. I used to think it was ok to define marriage on your own terms. Oh I forgot to add even my brother is in a common law marriage. So I did not grow up with a strong culture of marriage. Even though my parents are married now they weren't when I was born and my dad has a very bad attitude about the institution of marriage, as does my brother, as did my ex.

---

So that gets into the deeper issue. I finally realized you can't mess around with the definition of marriage after my bad experience with my current partner. I say that because I've changed and I no longer believe his nonsense. He's my partner, he's my boyfriend, he's my significant other, but he is definitely not my fiancé or my husband. He used to call himself my husband. Its very twisted.

[unicorn2014]

I guess my suggestion is for you to give yourself more time to sit with your feelings... .in all their glorious confusing conflicted directions.    I know that is tough work.

I know you said not encourage him as opposed to discourage him, however I don't know how to not encourage him so I simplified it and said discourage him. I think I figured one way out. When he starts talking about I will talk to you soon, I love you, I will start talking to him about the work I need to do on my budget and my resume. I think he sees himself as my rescuer, even though he's always told me he's not my rescuer. I kind of see that as pouring cold water on his ardor, because its a reminder that he failed me, and that should turn him off.

---

Yes I do have very mixed feelings. I'm very angry with him for promising me the moon and delivering me only a piece of it. I will remind him of this as often as I can indirectly, that he failed me, by reminding him of my struggles. Maybe that will push him away enough to give me some breathing room. I say this because I think the best option I have of countering his fantasy world is beating him over the head with my reality.

[unicorn2014]

I see, so I have a choice to leave the relationship. Yes I do, and when I think about that choice I'm not ready to make it yet. While I'm not happy with the relationship, I do not want to go back to the way things were before. I will think about this though.

I think you are about 3/4 of the way there.

You are owning the choice to staying in the r/s and accepting the "warts" that some with that choice.  You have the power.   

The last 1/4 (that I see for now) is that there is a bit of a false choice in saying "I don't want to go back to the way things were before".

The past is over, you can't go back.  Even if you set up the exact same conditions it will be different.  You are stronger now, and are taking control of your life.

Unicorn,

Do you like movies?  I like to use movie analogies a lot to make my point.  My previous attempts to use those analogies with you seem to have fallen flat        So, of course I will keep trying.

Anyway, have you seen the matrix?  There was a choice offered early on.  Take one pill and things would stay the same, take the other pill and you become more self aware (probably not getting the movie line exactly right).

Anyway, you can't go back.  You have taken the pill to become more self aware and you are starting to see the world through different eyes. 

FF

FF I love movies, and ironically enough my SO always used to tell me he took the other pill and became more self aware.

---

When I say I don't want things to go back to the way they were I am saying that for his sake. He always tells me he misses me. Well, every time he saw me it was in my bed in my apartment and I was under the impression that he had filed for divorce. The reason I don't miss him is I don't miss the way things were and  I never ever want to experience them that way again.

---

The last movie I saw was... .Shaun the Sheep? I can't remember. I love movies.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes I do have very mixed feelings. I'm very angry with him for promising me the moon and delivering me only a piece of it. I will remind him of this as often as I can indirectly, that he failed me, by reminding him of my struggles. Maybe that will push him away enough to give me some breathing room. I say this because I think the best option I have of countering his fantasy world is beating him over the head with my reality.

THAT shows me where you could go, in a much healthier direction.

Don't do something hoping he will get the hint and give you breathing room.

How about telling him something like this?

I need some space to sort out my own feelings. I don't want to talk to you six times a day for a while. I'll still get on facetime while I make dinner, but I'm going to take my mornings afternoons and nights back for myself and my daughter for a while.

Modify as needed--I'm taking a stab in the dark as far as which part of your daily contact are most satisfying for you.

Yes, he might dysregulate. That is his problem.

YOU WANT SPACE. Tell him what you want, then take the space. You don't need his approval for it. You don't need him to agree that it is a good idea. You don't need him to want it as well. (He clearly doesn't) You don't need to take care of him when he is feeling needy. Those are his feelings, and he can find a way to cope on his own.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you grey kitty, I did tell him I needed to work on my budget and my resume this week.

---

I am mad at him for telling me he would give me money to pay for my opthomologist. He didn't.

---

Whenever I try to talk to him about certain things he'll ask "do you still want my help?" He will always be in a position to help me, he's older, more education, higher income. It's not a relationship of equals.

---

I think if I were to say to him I can't connect to you in the morning we could go from there. I truly feel like he uses his connection to me like a comfort object. He's self employed so he's very frequently available .

[Grey Kitty]

Stick to telling him the part that matters.

Your choice not to spend mornings in contact with him (for a while at least).

When you tell him, make sure that what you say is all about yourself and how you are feeling. Not about how he is using you. Not about how he is making you feel. None of that. Nothing good comes of sharing those things with him at a time like this.

You have the power to make that choice for yourself, and implement it. (Don't call in the morning; don't take calls in the morning; don't read emails/texts/etc. in the morning.)

Do it because you will feel better about yourself spending your time in other ways.



That he is using time with you as a way of soothing himself isn't your problem, it isn't something you can fix or need to fix. It is interesting to speculate about for you... .but not really actionable on your part. So don't get lost in it. If there is any significance to this issue, it is something he will get to on his own, or in his own therapy, or whatever. Let it go--you won't find the answers you need for yourself there.

[formflier]

  I think if I were to say to him I can't connect to you in the morning we could go from there. I truly feel like he uses his connection to me like a comfort object. He's self employed so he's very frequently available .  

               I like this.  Specific, will free up some of your time to do other things, and will give him a chance to see that he will survive.   After a couple weeks re-evaluate and see if you can move him out of your afternoons.  Big comment:  There are no relationships of equals.  None of us are the same, therefore we are not equals.  You have it in your power to approach him as an equal or to subjugate yourself to him.  It's about your mindset.  in some areas you will be superior to him because of life experience.  In other areas he will be superior       Please take some time to examine your attitudes about people that have "more" being superior or otherwise "unequal" to you.  You are making huge strides in the right direction.  Keep it up.                  

FF

[unicorn2014]

I think what I can do is communicate to him that if I have to be somewhere in the morning I can't read his texts until I get on the bus. That is something small and doable.

--

Grey kitty I do think he uses me to soothe himself and I resent this.

--

Formflier he will always have a higher income then me, both because of his family of origin and because of him self. That much is true. My first husband was poorer then me. My second partner is richer then me.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey kitty I do think he uses me to soothe himself and I resent this.

I agree that he does use you that way.

However the problem isn't that he is using you to sooth himself, or that you are soothing him.

I'm sure that you would do the same cheerfully for your daughter.

Likewise, when you are feeling genuine concern for him and care about him, you will do it cheerfully for him too. Same as you would for other important people in your life.

The problem is that he is manipulating you into soothing him when you don't feel like doing it. You aren't choosing to do it and giving it to him--you are letting him take it from you.

And that is where the resentment comes from.

The solution is to be aware of your own feelings, and when interacting with him stops feeling good or productive for you, move yourself out of it, and into something that will feel good for you. When you truly feel that you have control over yourself this way, you will be able to generously give yourself to him when you want to, as well as staying away when he is needy/whatever and you don't want to sooth him.

[formflier]

I think what I can do is communicate to him that if I have to be somewhere in the morning I can't read his texts until I get on the bus. That is something small and doable.  

               I'm going to challenge you on this.  Don't JADE.  You want space, tell him and take it.  It needs no explanation.  I think it wise that you make it clear that you need space and it's not about him.  But don't "create" excuses or even use other things that are already there as excuses.  Your needs are valuable enough that you can fill them without explaining or making excuses                

FF

[unicorn2014]

Thank you grey kitty, he's always needy these days: he's got the flu and he's creating a new source of revenue .

---

He gets on my nerves when he thinks his encouragement will make or break me. In fact that makes me furious. He has a very paternal attitude towards me.

[unicorn2014]

I hear what you are saying form flier and I hope I can do that. Currently we are arguing about the fact that he thinks his encouragement or discouragement will make or break me. It makes me livid as I told grey kitty.

[waverider]

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Waverider