Endless negative communication - how to respond

[startrekuser]

My wife keeps sending me messages (very negative just like a typical BPD).  She doesn't want me to have a relationship with my brother.  I do want to.  She accuses me and him of all kinds of things and I responded with a response crafted right from the "Stop Walking in Eggshells" book.  I validated her ridiculous opinion  and stated that I see things differently and also have a right to my opinions and feelings, etc.  I explained how I see things differently, etc.  She still send me a negative response: "So, I'm imagining my hurts?  I'm making them up or I'm delusional or crazy is your opinion?".   I feel like ignoring this b/c I already addressed it.  What should I do?  Thanks.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

  Might be helpful for you to post the entire exchange.  Perhaps some nuance has been lost.  In general I think you are 90% there.  Don't state that you have a right to your own opinions.  It's sort of like claiming that you are in charge.  If you have to say it, you are not in charge.  Do it, don't say it.  Generally, 1.  Make sure she feels heard (I might not validate what she wants in the brother case, that is validating the invalid), confirm with active listening that you have her desires heard.  2.  Let her know you have a different opinion and point of view.  Don't explain it.  3.  Let her know you support her taking care of herself.  (a nice way of saying she has to take action to fix her issues, vice bullying others into it)  Be done talking about it.  Again, please post full exchange and we can try to parse it.          

FF

[startrekuser]

WIFE:

Your actions speak louder than words.

With your actions you've told me

how little my feelings are to you

how unimportant I am to you

how disloyal you are to me

how unwilling you are to COMPROMISE

how untrustworthy your words means to me

How little our vows meant to you

How insignificant it means it be a husband

Because when I need you the most, you emotionally abandon me.

This means I am unsafe with you.  I can never trust you with my feelings, therefore we can never be intimate.  I feel that not only will you ignore my feelings, you will try to destroy them.  I have always felt this way.  You have been this way the entire time I have known you.  You have never behaved like a man.  You are always cowering.  You are weak because you don't show a willingness to compromise or honor.

You would rather disgrace me and humiliate me to my enemies just to get your way.  This is not how a man treats his wife. 

ME:

Your feelings are valid.

WIFE:

As long as you continue to be cruel and bully me, I will u keep away from you.

R u unwell?  What do u mean my feelings r valid?  U keep stating platitudes.  If my feelings r valid then why do u continue to destroy them?  Is this a sick game?  Because your behavior is disturbing.

ME:

No woman would want a cruel husband who bullys her.  Judging by your email, you think I'm a cruel bully towards you.  Of course, you have a right to your feelings and your opinions.  I see things differently from you and I have a right to my feelings and my opinions. The way I see it, I've made several efforts to discuss these issues with you and I never make demands of you.  We've discussed them fairly recently (6 or 8 months ago or so) and we agreed that it would be OK for me to talk with my brother on the phone.  I don't believe that I'm cruel and I don't believe I bully you or anyone else.

WIFE:

So, I'm imagining my hurts?  I'm making them up or I'm delusional or crazy is your opinion?

[formflier]

  So, this was all via email, correct?  My initial reaction is that less is more.  There is a lot of this that sounds like crap my wife used to say/accuse.  Very frustrating stuff.  You are doing pretty good here.  There can be some improvements, but you have the gist of it.  Remember, anything that comes out of your head/mouth/email that is trying to "reason" with her, is going to fall flat.  Hear her, state your part, restate your support or her right to be different and take care of herself.  Quit talking and call your brother.  Do you guys do MC?    The reason to quit talking is that while "she is this way", further talking is making things worse instead of better.  I'm going to keep thinking on this.  Hang in there!          

FF

[startrekuser]

So, this was all via email... .correct?

My initial reaction is that less is more.

There is a lot of this that sounds like crap my wife used to say/accuse.

Very frustrating stuff.

You are doing pretty good here.  There can be some improvements, but you have the gist of it.

Remember, anything that comes out of your head/mouth/email that is trying to "reason" with her, is going to fall flat.

Hear her, state your part, restate your support or her right to be different and take care of herself.

Quit talking and call your brother.

Do you guys do MC?  

The reason to quit talking is that while "she is this way", further talking is making things worse instead of better.

I'm going to keep thinking on this.

Hang in there!

FF

Thanks.  Not sure what MC means,  but I have been talking to him.  I REALLY appreciate your advice.

[formflier]

  MC is marriage counseling.  Once you state your position, unlikely you will have better results without a mediator.  She won't like that, because they won't let her try and kick your a$$ over this.  Dude, I've been there.  Most people reading this have felt the flames of a pwBPD singing their a$$.  If it gets hot and you can remember one thing, less is more.  You are better to take a break before you lose it, than after.  Hang in there, better days are coming.  Think of it as you are stuck on a planet with an alien.  Much better to get beamed out before the alien eats you, lasers you, whatever.             

FF  H

[dacoming]

 I feel like ignoring this b/c I already addressed it.  What should I do?  Thanks.

There's your answer!  Trying to make her understand is fruitless and will lead to making things worse.  

[Icthelight]

WIFE:

Your actions speak louder than words.

With your actions you've told me

how little my feelings are to you

how unimportant I am to you

how disloyal you are to me

how unwilling you are to COMPROMISE

how untrustworthy your words means to me

How little our vows meant to you

How insignificant it means it be a husband

Because when I need you the most, you emotionally abandon me.

This means I am unsafe with you.  I can never trust you with my feelings, therefore we can never be intimate.  I feel that not only will you ignore my feelings, you will try to destroy them.  I have always felt this way.  You have been this way the entire time I have known you.  You have never behaved like a man.  You are always cowering.  You are weak because you don't show a willingness to compromise or honor.

You would rather disgrace me and humiliate me to my enemies just to get your way.  This is not how a man treats his wife. 

ME:

Your feelings are valid.

WIFE:

As long as you continue to be cruel and bully me, I will u keep away from you.

R u unwell?  What do u mean my feelings r valid?  U keep stating platitudes.  If my feelings r valid then why do u continue to destroy them?  Is this a sick game?  Because your behavior is disturbing.

ME:

No woman would want a cruel husband who bullys her.  Judging by your email, you think I'm a cruel bully towards you.  Of course, you have a right to your feelings and your opinions.  I see things differently from you and I have a right to my feelings and my opinions. The way I see it, I've made several efforts to discuss these issues with you and I never make demands of you.  We've discussed them fairly recently (6 or 8 months ago or so) and we agreed that it would be OK for me to talk with my brother on the phone.  I don't believe that I'm cruel and I don't believe I bully you or anyone else.

WIFE:

So, I'm imagining my hurts?  I'm making them up or I'm delusional or crazy is your opinion?

This really sounds like my wife and me. So sorry you're going through this. I know that when I receive texts or emails like this, I feel like she's cornering me into a no win situation. On top of that, add the emotions, like hurt and anger that I feel and there's no way I want to validate or discuss anything with her.

It sounds like she is really dysregulated and as Form mentioned, saying less is best. She is trying to validate her anger and feelings of being abandoned, so anything you say will be twisted or misunderstood. I don't like it when my wife starts bringing up the past because I don't remember the events as she describes them, and somethings, I don't remember them at all. My response recently to complaints about something I have done in the past is, "I'm having a difficult time recalling (state the event or whatever she is talking about) at this time. It sounds like you're still really hurt by this, so I will need to think about it and will have to get back to you." She usually stares at me, takes a deep breath and says, "you never recall anything, like the time blah blah blah." I just listen intently and with an apologetic look on my face, I repeat the statement again. I then ask for a time out and let her know that I will return in 30 minutes.

I've found that when I return, she's calmed down a bit and doesn't even remember what she was saying. It doesn't take much for her to get upset again, so I keep my responses very short and brief. I just lean forward and stare into her eyes in a "you are important and you're the only one in the room for me" attitude. I nod a lot and validate where I can. If I start to wear down or get excited myself, I take another break.

Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps. Don't JADE and take breaks where you need to. I view it as letting hot air out of a balloon a little at a time. I'm also focusing on my mental and physical health a lot more than I ever have, and it is helping in terms of not taking things so personally. Good luck.

[ColdEthyl]

I don't get texts to ignore... .I get lecture time.

This is what I've learned so far. Less IS more. "I understand how you could feel that way. I would be hurt too if I thought that. I was under the impression that we spoke about this and you would be OK if I talked to my brother." Kind of throws a nice round SET in there. (Sympathize, empathize, truth)

When my husband gets into these tizzies... .his mind loops and he repeats himself over and over and over. It won't stop to whatever X amount of energy has to dispel.

For me, I listen, give eye contact, throw in some nods, hold his hand while he's talking. That all helps. In your case, keep the texts light.

[formflier]

  How often do you get emails like this?   Texts?  I used to get them all the time.  Then I got the point, with several MCs encouraging us to stop discussing r/s issues via text and email, that I followed the advice even though my wife was not.  This initially would enrage her, and it still bothers her.  She rarely texts and emails like this anymore.  When she texts stuff like that, I completely ignore it.  In email I would say something acknowledging receipt and that I am looking forward to discussing in person at a later (much later) date.  She will still vent it out via email and text and I just don't pay attention.  Eventually the energy bleeds out and things resume some sort of normalcy.  Just a heads up:  What I actually do is a bit outside of the lessons and recommendations.  They will tell you to give a specific time to lesson abandonment fears and also try to validate a bit if you can.  My way is working for me (right now) so, I'm focused on other things.          

FF

[dacoming]

WIFE:

Your actions speak louder than words.

With your actions you've told me

how little my feelings are to you

how unimportant I am to you

how disloyal you are to me

how unwilling you are to COMPROMISE

how untrustworthy your words means to me

How little our vows meant to you

How insignificant it means it be a husband

Because when I need you the most, you emotionally abandon me.

This means I am unsafe with you.  I can never trust you with my feelings, therefore we can never be intimate.  I feel that not only will you ignore my feelings, you will try to destroy them.  I have always felt this way.  You have been this way the entire time I have known you.  You have never behaved like a man.  You are always cowering.  You are weak because you don't show a willingness to compromise or honor.

You would rather disgrace me and humiliate me to my enemies just to get your way.  This is not how a man treats his wife. 

ME:

Your feelings are valid.

WIFE:

As long as you continue to be cruel and bully me, I will u keep away from you.

R u unwell?  What do u mean my feelings r valid?  U keep stating platitudes.  If my feelings r valid then why do u continue to destroy them?  Is this a sick game?  Because your behavior is disturbing.

ME:

No woman would want a cruel husband who bullys her.  Judging by your email, you think I'm a cruel bully towards you.  Of course, you have a right to your feelings and your opinions.  I see things differently from you and I have a right to my feelings and my opinions. The way I see it, I've made several efforts to discuss these issues with you and I never make demands of you.  We've discussed them fairly recently (6 or 8 months ago or so) and we agreed that it would be OK for me to talk with my brother on the phone.  I don't believe that I'm cruel and I don't believe I bully you or anyone else.

WIFE:

So, I'm imagining my hurts?  I'm making them up or I'm delusional or crazy is your opinion?

This message REALLY reminds me of communications with my wife who's undiagnosed.  It makes me even more certain that BPD is at least one disorder she suffers from.  If nothing else, this message makes me know I'm not losing my mind.  I pray that things get better for you!  Perhaps I should post something my wife has sent on a different topic but nevertheless similar and hurtful:

"I do REALIZE you don't value me the way you use to and I get it.  I'm sure the grass is looking greener on the other side.  I think it's for the best.  I can't deal with your changes and HORRIBLE sex.  I've bitten that BULLET for a LONG time and NOW YOU think you're going to treat me like SH*&! I DON'T WANT TO BE where a man treat me like I have no value.  Yeah, SHE'S doing and saying everything you want to hear but I've proven my LOYALTY.  YOU could only PRAY to get what I've given you. LOL"

This happened after she started another argument out of the blue about something that occurred a couple months ago.  As usual, she has a different recollection of what happened and is trying to force me to acknowledge my wrong like a man... .She always sends messages like there is another woman confirmed!  I've never cheated on this woman, not even once.  

[dacoming]

I don't get texts to ignore... .I get lecture time.

This is what I've learned so far. Less IS more. "I understand how you could feel that way. I would be hurt too if I thought that. I was under the impression that we spoke about this and you would be OK if I talked to my brother." Kind of throws a nice round SET in there. (Sympathize, empathize, truth)

When my husband gets into these tizzies... .his mind loops and he repeats himself over and over and over. It won't stop to whatever X amount of energy has to dispel.

For me, I listen, give eye contact, throw in some nods, hold his hand while he's talking. That all helps. In your case, keep the texts light.

I get both, moreso the lectures!  I prefer the texts over the lectures... .. 

[bpd mother 51]

Sorry you are struggling. I know how it is. I used to ask my husband if he was out of his mind. I would say, "But what you are upset about, it NEVER happened!"  What if you stopped judging her perceptions. What if you just reflected her feelings like... ."So you are saying, when this happened and I did xyz, it made you feel abc." Then you are not agreeing, but seeing. They call that Validation. When I do it with my husband, maybe for a short while on the subject even, he just suddenly drops out of the anger/upset/ irrational episode completely. He moves on in a positive way. It helps a lot, that validation thing. But it is not easy to learn.

[unicorn2014]

Startrekuser, that is heart breaking and I'm sorry you're going through that.

Those experiences can be very emotionally scarring.

It sounds like the other posters have some good advice.

I hope its helpful.

 

[startrekuser]

Hey, thanks for the advice everyone.

Right now I find it much easier to communicate via email than face to face.  I tend to break down and either give in or am at a loss for words when she's dysregulated in front of me.  She uses the tactic that my words are not "loving". 

There's one thing  that's so sad and pathetic that I need to mention. We're Jewish and I have this book written by an Orthodox rabbi for Jewish men only on how to be a man and a good husband.  I've learned a lot from it.  The irony is that in the beginning of the book, there is an introductory page that warns wives not to read it lest they use the book against their husbands.  Well, she read the book and takes notes on it and uses it to bash my head in (figuratively speaking) on a regular basis.  When she first used it against me, I asked her if she read the introduction and she said that doesn't apply to her because she would never use it against me!  Talk about not being self-aware!

[startrekuser]

One other thing I need to mention. If we didn't have a child together, I would leave her tomorrow.

[ColdEthyl]

I don't get texts to ignore... .I get lecture time.

This is what I've learned so far. Less IS more. "I understand how you could feel that way. I would be hurt too if I thought that. I was under the impression that we spoke about this and you would be OK if I talked to my brother." Kind of throws a nice round SET in there. (Sympathize, empathize, truth)

When my husband gets into these tizzies... .his mind loops and he repeats himself over and over and over. It won't stop to whatever X amount of energy has to dispel.

For me, I listen, give eye contact, throw in some nods, hold his hand while he's talking. That all helps. In your case, keep the texts light.

I get both, moreso the lectures!  I prefer the texts over the lectures... .. 

I would much prefer texts myself but he's not one for phone calls/texting so... .this is what i get lolol I'm getting better at just tuning him out, letting him run himself tired and doing my own thang.  I love talking to him, and I really enjoy having honest conversations and discussions with him. However, when it's just the BPD dysregulation tizzy about a perceived issue as opposed to a real one... .well... .my patience goes fishing and leaves me holding the bag

[ColdEthyl]

Hey, thanks for the advice everyone.

Right now I find it much easier to communicate via email than face to face.  I tend to break down and either give in or am at a loss for words when she's dysregulated in front of me.  She uses the tactic that my words are not "loving". 

There's one thing  that's so sad and pathetic that I need to mention. We're Jewish and I have this book written by an Orthodox rabbi for Jewish men only on how to be a man and a good husband.  I've learned a lot from it.  The irony is that in the beginning of the book, there is an introductory page that warns wives not to read it lest they use the book against their husbands.  Well, she read the book and takes notes on it and uses it to bash my head in (figuratively speaking) on a regular basis.  When she first used it against me, I asked her if she read the introduction and she said that doesn't apply to her because she would never use it against me!  Talk about not being self-aware!

Sighs... .yep.

I'm sorry you have found yourself in a situation where you would leave if you didn't have a child together. Everyone deserves to be happy in their life, life choices and their partners.

A certain part of you has sort of shutdown to be in this r/s, from my viewpoint. The biggest thing is taking things personal, and understanding that since they are mentally ill... there are just some lines of logic they can't/won't follow. If you know that ahead of time, and you start dealing with a dysregulation, it helps to take the personal sting from it.

She's using that good husband bit on you because she knows she has issues, but the easiest way for her to protect herself from shame, guilt and pain is to gaslight it back on you. I don't know if you are a Lord of the Rings fan, but I visualize my husband's BPD as the Eye of Sauron. It has to focus on something... .anything that's not itself. In your case, she knows there's issues with the relationship, and part of that issue is her. So, she swing her eye onto you. As the partners of BPD, that damn eye will be staring at us often.

A personal example for me was over this weekend. It was my husband's birthday, which already means there's going to be energy floating around. I made plans to have dinner with his family. At first, he said he didn't want the dinner. Then he did. Then he didn't. Then he did, but he didn't want to pick the place. Then he did. Then he didn't. Then he did, but decided... .in his words... .he was being obstinate without cause, so he settled on his sister's suggestion. I told him where it was, did a quick look up. We had no problems getting to the place, but that didn't stop Sauron's eye from swinging on the trip and him saying "Next time you pick a place and tell me where my birthday dinner is going to be, you shouldn't make me have to find it, too"

He was nervous. I know he gets nervous in social settings, so these little quips come out here and there as a way to dispel a bit of his nerves. He doesn't mean to hurt anyone. He doesn't mean to sound ungrateful, but the nerves "boil over" and this is the result. Simply offering a short SET sentence calmed that situation down. It didn't go any further.

If I had decided to try to JADE in this case and argue that he could have chosen his own restaurant and he ample time to do so, the roof would have blown off and it would have been game on. Not worth it.

I simply said "Oh, I understand hun. I don't like driving to someplace I don't know where it is either. You did well getting there without a problem"

[startrekuser]

Hi ColdEthyl,

I've seen your story about his bday in another thread.  Something I'm going to try with my wife that has worked in the past.  She is a big time blamer, whether it's true or not.  Blaming is a really harsh way to have a relationship.  It just doesn't work.  It makes me physically ill actually.  I do it to sometimes as part of JADE and she has a very sharp reaction to it.  She can dish it out but she can't take it.  LOL. 

Anyway, I'm going to try focusing on solutions.  When she blames me for something, I'll validate her feelings and ask if she wants to discuss possible solutions.

[goateeki]

WIFE:

Your actions speak louder than words.

With your actions you've told me

how little my feelings are to you

how unimportant I am to you

how disloyal you are to me

how unwilling you are to COMPROMISE

how untrustworthy your words means to me

How little our vows meant to you

How insignificant it means it be a husband

Because when I need you the most, you emotionally abandon me.

This means I am unsafe with you.  I can never trust you with my feelings, therefore we can never be intimate.  I feel that not only will you ignore my feelings, you will try to destroy them.  I have always felt this way.  You have been this way the entire time I have known you.  You have never behaved like a man.  You are always cowering.  You are weak because you don't show a willingness to compromise or honor.

You would rather disgrace me and humiliate me to my enemies just to get your way.  This is not how a man treats his wife. 

ME:

Your feelings are valid.

WIFE:

As long as you continue to be cruel and bully me, I will u keep away from you.

R u unwell?  What do u mean my feelings r valid?  U keep stating platitudes.  If my feelings r valid then why do u continue to destroy them?  Is this a sick game?  Because your behavior is disturbing.

ME:

No woman would want a cruel husband who bullys her.  Judging by your email, you think I'm a cruel bully towards you.  Of course, you have a right to your feelings and your opinions.  I see things differently from you and I have a right to my feelings and my opinions. The way I see it, I've made several efforts to discuss these issues with you and I never make demands of you.  We've discussed them fairly recently (6 or 8 months ago or so) and we agreed that it would be OK for me to talk with my brother on the phone.  I don't believe that I'm cruel and I don't believe I bully you or anyone else.

WIFE:

So, I'm imagining my hurts?  I'm making them up or I'm delusional or crazy is your opinion?

I read this stuff and think that if evolution carries with it some crime it can never pay for, it is the irresistible nature of sexual attraction.  The things we tolerate in the name of reproduction is... .just nuts.  I can't believe I once thought that things like this were somehow worth it because, you know, we were married and have kids.

This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a long time.  The female does not have a concrete idea of what it is she wants, she only knows what she does not like and even that is poorly defined.  This is why in thought and communication it helps to move from specificity (an actual, concrete event) to abstraction (what the event means to us). This is moving from one abstraction to another to another. How can a listener attach real meaning to this? 

I will admit that the deeper I go into the BPD landscape, the harder it is for me to think that women generally are reliable people.  I know several great women, but I struggle to view them as unexceptional. 

You know why it's hard to validate this stuff? Because it's incomprehensible.

[formflier]

  You know why it's hard to validate this stuff? Because it's incomprehensible.  

       e ou  At this level of stuff, I would try less validation than the poster did.  Some of the responses were a bit long.  Remember, less is more.  She is obviously cranky, so further engaging didn't seem to help things.  Especially if this is a pattern.  I know what you mean about being suspicious of women.  My r/s has gotten a lot better, but I constantly wonder what others "really go through" in their r/s (especially if it looks good on the outside.          

FF

[startrekuser]

I read this stuff and think that if evolution carries with it some crime it can never pay for, it is the irresistible nature of sexual attraction.  The things we tolerate in the name of reproduction is... .just nuts.  I can't believe I once thought that things like this were somehow worth it because, you know, we were married and have kids.

This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a long time.  The female does not have a concrete idea of what it is she wants, she only knows what she does not like and even that is poorly defined.  This is why in thought and communication it helps to move from specificity (an actual, concrete event) to abstraction (what the event means to us). This is moving from one abstraction to another to another. How can a listener attach real meaning to this? 

I will admit that the deeper I go into the BPD landscape, the harder it is for me to think that women generally are reliable people.  I know several great women, but I struggle to view them as unexceptional. 

You know why it's hard to validate this stuff? Because it's incomprehensible.

Why do you think women are unreliable people?

[ColdEthyl]

"I will admit that the deeper I go into the BPD landscape, the harder it is for me to think that women generally are reliable people.  I know several great women, but I struggle to view them as unexceptional."

Well, that's a little harsh. I would never paint every male with the BPD brush. Not that you know me, but I happen to be a female that has a pretty strict moral code, and I hate lying. I don't do it. I didn't even lie to my children about santa clause or tooth fairy or any of that nonsense. Dealing with BPD for me has been incredibly challenging because I am a straight shooter, and BPDers are anything but.

[unicorn2014]

"I will admit that the deeper I go into the BPD landscape, the harder it is for me to think that women generally are reliable people.  I know several great women, but I struggle to view them as unexceptional."

Well, that's a little harsh. I would never paint every male with the BPD brush. Not that you know me, but I happen to be a female that has a pretty strict moral code, and I hate lying. I don't do it. I didn't even lie to my children about santa clause or tooth fairy or any of that nonsense. Dealing with BPD for me has been incredibly challenging because I am a straight shooter, and BPDers are anything but.

Thanks for that last statement about BPDers are anything but straight shooters. That is  a conversation my SO and I have had frequently, about me being straight ahead and about him knowing that he had be less murky then usual  if he wanted to be with me.

[ColdEthyl]

"I will admit that the deeper I go into the BPD landscape, the harder it is for me to think that women generally are reliable people.  I know several great women, but I struggle to view them as unexceptional."

Well, that's a little harsh. I would never paint every male with the BPD brush. Not that you know me, but I happen to be a female that has a pretty strict moral code, and I hate lying. I don't do it. I didn't even lie to my children about santa clause or tooth fairy or any of that nonsense. Dealing with BPD for me has been incredibly challenging because I am a straight shooter, and BPDers are anything but.

Thanks for that last statement about BPDers are anything but straight shooters. That is  a conversation my SO and I have had frequently, about me being straight ahead and about him knowing that he had be less murky then usual  if he wanted to be with me.

*Nods* totally understand, and I do understand why it's so incredibly frustrating for you. It's been a challenge to open my horizons and understand people do not all think like me, that they might no value the same things in the same way, etc.

[unicorn2014]

Cold ethyl, I might have to start my own thread about radical truth telling. I was thinking about something my dad said about things being none of somebody's business. I remember a very difficult conversation I had with my dad where he said I was being intrusive because I asked him about a holiday party my mom went to. I don't want to hijack the original posters thread.