I have whittled down the reconcile letter somewhat

[C.Stein]

I have whittled down the reconcile letter somewhat.  I have now started contemplating if it would be better to just tell her my feelings without the request to consider reconciliation.   Either way this is very likely a fruitless endeavour but it has helped me to see things more clearly than before.  Even if nothing comes from this it has moved me further down the healing path, as clarity in these situations many times will.

The next draft.



I am writing this with the hope you are not in a new relationship. If you will, please spare a moment of your time to read this with an open mind.

You have every reason to believe I am OK with our relationship ending but I am not and never was.  Losing the love we found with each other and a two year relationship because we never had a real conversation about our feelings and needs this year is tragic.  I cannot find a way to stop loving you no matter how hard I try to push you out of my heart.  I am deeply sorry for hurting you.  I let you down, I let us both down.

You are an intelligent, beautiful, loving, warm, affectionate, passionate and silly woman who I am deeply in love with and want to walk hand in hand through life with, share the joy of parenthood with.  We bonded and connected with each other at a depth I had never thought possible.  We are so very compatible with each other in a myriad of ways.  I treasure and cherish you like no other.

Would you consider allowing yourself the opportunity and time to work with me and repair the damage that was done to our relationship this year?  We can have a future and family together if we can believe and trust in each other.  We can build the secure and stable relationship needed for a family to grow on.  There is hope if we can believe.

Let us learn from the mistakes and work on moving forward together on the same path not different ones.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Joem678]

C Stein,

They need to hear that we still care for them.  It refuels them.  The last time she saw me, she tried to guilt me, I saw the BPD victim at work.  Yes, I can literally see the disorder manifest in her. She left crying and didn't get to her mom's for a long time with my kids.  More than likely she went with the dude of the idealized friends.  It's the way it works with her.  That's when I told her, leave me alone.

Just keep that in mind. 

[Skip]

I have whittled down the reconcile letter somewhat.  I have now started contemplating if it would be better to just tell her my feelings without the request to consider reconciliation.  

You are writing her what you want her to hear - not what she wants to hear. This is mostly a letter about you.

You might fair better and reach her by writing one about her.

Here is one guys idea on reaching out:



   Click photo for link

[C.Stein]

C Stein,

They need to hear that we still care for them.  It refuels them.  The last time she saw me, she tried to guilt me, I saw the BPD victim at work.  Yes, I can literally see the disorder manifest in her. She left crying and didn't get to her mom's for a long time with my kids.  More than likely she went with the dude of the idealized friends.  It's the way it works with her.  That's when I told her, leave me alone.

Just keep that in mind. 

My ex does play the victim like a pro.  This typically manifested itself when she had done something that hurt me.  She would also do it when she didn't want to take responsibility for something she had done.  She uses it as an avoidance tactic, to shift focus away from something she did or said.  I don't really think this is a conscious thing she does, but it effectively takes attention away from her actions.  With regard to me, it resulted in my feelings being marginalized and dismissed. 

I realize now this is one reason why I started to distance myself.  The emotional pain she was causing me was never embraced and accepted by her and as a consequence the wound never healed.  Each time she hurt me the wound just got deeper until it went critical at the beginning of this year after the month long deception was revealed. 

I believe this is also why past issues kept coming up in arguments/fights, because they were never resolved ... .the wound was still open.  This was a failure on my part.  I should have looked for more effective ways to communicate with her and when she is playing the victim to just let her without reproach or JADEing.

[C.Stein]

You are writing her what you want her to hear - not what she wants to hear. This is mostly a letter about you.

You might fair better and reach her by writing one about her.

Thanks Skip.  I do believe she wants/needs to hear she can get the family she has become desperate for this year.  Her thinking this year has been singular in this respect and the relationship secondary.  Her belief she cannot get that with me now is enough for her to walk away and she has every right to do that.  She is 36 and I am sure she feels like she is running out of time and she can't waste anymore time on what she has come to believe (convinced herself) is a dead end.

The thing is, in spite of what I might have led her to believe near the end of our relationship, I am open to family if we can build a stable and secure relationship, one that has permanence and constancy.

She is looking for the promise of a family before achieving the relationship necessary to provide a loving and healthy environment for a child.  She essentially said as much in one of her last texts to me in Aug.  It came across as an implied ultimatum.  

She feels marriage will solve all the problems within a relationship and with her own behavior.   She has said to me she believes commitment comes as a result of marriage.  We discussed this, I expressed to her that I feel commitment needs to come before a marriage not after or as a result of.  To be honest, I don't know how she feels about this now but I think she still might feel this way.  

I am not a person who believes marriage/children can fix anything.  If the relationship is not stable and strong, if there is no commitment to each other before marriage, then the chances of a successful marriage are significantly reduced.  I am looking for the secure and stable relationship first before I can promise the family.  I believe this is the most healthy thing to do in a relationship that might lead to marriage.  I made this very clear to her in the beginning.

Now that she is nearing a point in her life where a stable career looks promising and she is now turning her future focus towards family and children.   Her own personal requirement in the beginning was she needed a stable career so she could feel comfortable building a family.   This is very responsible and mature thinking on her part.   That said, she still has not achieved this and there is still the possibility she might not.  She is very close to failing out of this career program and if she does it will literally destroy her.  I feel a great deal trepidation for her if she does fail out.

I am unsure how to empathize with her when I don't really know how she is feeling.  All I can really do is make assumptions here.  I added this to the draft email, is this what you had in mind?

I understand why you feel I mislead you, that I wasted two years of your life, that I abandon you.  I took away your hope and you have every right to resent me for this.  I am deeply sorry for hurting you.  I let you down, I let us both down.

[C.Stein]

Skip, I might point out that it is quite possible she will latch onto that modified statement as justification for how she acted this year towards me.   It could be seen by her as a means to shift responsibility for everything that has happened onto my shoulders.   She likely has already done that, but this would reinforce that thinking.  I can't see how this would be constructive ... .empathic yes ... .but also enabling her to continue to avoid culpability.

[Skip]

Thanks Skip.  I do believe she wants/needs to hear she can get the family she has become desperate for this year.  Her thinking this year has been singular in this respect and the relationship secondary.  Her belief she cannot get that with me now is enough for her to walk away and she has every right to do that.  She is 36 and I am sure she feels like she is running out of time and she can't waste anymore time on what she has come to believe (convinced herself) is a dead end.

There is a serious values conflict here:

• Her: So here "values" are to have a family and she has a boundary that says she can't be in an uncertain relationship at 36. Her partner is saying "no", or "later" or "not yet" or "no with conditions" (if I understand you correctly) - essentially maybe or "well see". She is holding true to her values.

• You: I am not a person who believes marriage/children can fix anything.  If the relationship is not stable and strong, if there is no commitment to each other before marriage, then the chances of a successful marriage are significantly reduced.  I am looking for the secure and stable relationship first before I can promise the family.  I believe this is the most healthy thing to do in a relationship that might lead to marriage.  I made this very clear to her in the beginning. You are holding true to your values.

So I think the first question to ask before evaluating the phraseology in the letter is, has anything changed that would resolve this values conflict?

[C.Stein]

Thanks Skip.  I do believe she wants/needs to hear she can get the family she has become desperate for this year.  Her thinking this year has been singular in this respect and the relationship secondary.  Her belief she cannot get that with me now is enough for her to walk away and she has every right to do that.  She is 36 and I am sure she feels like she is running out of time and she can't waste anymore time on what she has come to believe (convinced herself) is a dead end.

Her: So here "values" are to have a family and she has a boundary that says she can't be in an uncertain relationship at 36. Her partner is saying "no", or "later" or "not yet" or "no with conditions" (if I understand you correctly) - essentially maybe or "well see". She is holding true to her values.

You: I am not a person who believes marriage/children can fix anything.  If the relationship is not stable and strong, if there is no commitment to each other before marriage, then the chances of a successful marriage are significantly reduced.  I am looking for the secure and stable relationship first before I can promise the family.  I believe this is the most healthy thing to do in a relationship that might lead to marriage.  I made this very clear to her in the beginning. You are holding true to your values.

So I think the first question to ask before evaluating the letter is, has anything changes to resolve this values conflict?

That is a more or less accurate summary.  

Has anything changed?  If she has moved onto a new relationship, which also strongly supports an emotional affair, then yes, that is a pretty significant change.

If she has not moved on and the things that have been said post discard was because she views me as a dead end, then no.  Nothing has changed other than what I have written to her in post discard emails that she might not have read.  I did express a willingness to build a family with her on numerous occasions in these emails, however it is likely she thinks I am lying, which would be projection on her part.

The problem here is lack of communication.  One cannot hope to find resolution or compromise without communication.  

How can one resolve a chicken and egg scenario?

[Skip]

Hard questions, but all this shows in your words to her so it may help clearing it up.  BTW, we're not trying to influence you to write this letter or abandon the idea, we're  just trying to help you get a plan together that you can say "yay" or "nay" to.  

Which is truer, the first, the last, or something else:

1. It is likely she thinks I am lying, which would be projection on her part.

2. My credibility is damaged because of things I've said or done (not done).

3. I was discarded?

4. She has clear values and a boundary and was true to it.

5. If she is dating that is something to be expected given her relationship status and desire to start a family and I shouldn't judge that

6. If she is dating , it strongly supports an emotional affair, I should judge that

7. I don't have a solution we can both buy into - maybe we could find one, not sure.

8. I believe I have a solution (something new) that we can both get comfortable with

9 She owes me an apology

10 I owe her an apology.

I ask this as "more of the same",  "a note with little credibility" , or "no answers" probably isn't going to advance this.  

If you only have one bullet, don't pull the trigger until you have something in your sites.

[an0ught]

Hi C. Stein,

How can one resolve a chicken and egg scenario?

Every chicken is the result of a broken egg. A boundary transcended at a time of considerable weakness. It is a risky process. It usually starts by picking a small hole and peeking through it.



Image by Manuel M. Vicente via Wikipedia

Keep in mind that in the end you want a dialog. It may be more important how you say thing than what you say. It may be more important what you ask than what you tell.

[C.Stein]

Which is truer, the first, the last, or something else:

1. It is likely she thinks I am lying, which would be projection on her part.

2. My credibility is damaged because of things I've said or done (not done).

2 is more likely more true than 1 but that doesn't mean that 1 is necessarily false.

3. I was discarded?

4. She has clear values and a boundary and was true to it.

3 is more true than 4

Her reasons for discarding me were not because I said I couldn't be a father, even though I am certain this is what she is now telling herself.  That statement from me came after the discard during a brief "recycle".

Her stated reason for the discard was because I had taken too long to heal and she just couldn't do it anymore given how withdrawn, distant and depressed I had become.  Worth noting, that discard came 3 days after the clearest indication that she was emotionally involved with another man.

She never made an effort to fix the damage, she just expected me to fix it on my own.   She had also withdrawn from me emotionally by pretending like nothing had happened and ignoring my emotions and the damage she had done to the relationship.   

The only thing she was interested in talking about this year was family and children (i.e. her needs).  Again, lack of communication on my part was the problem.   The biggest reason for this was because she always dysregulated when I talked with her about my feelings and emotions with respect to her treatment of me.  So I bottled up my emotions in order to keep her stable and focused on her studies throughout our relationship, not just this year.  This was the wrong thing to do for both of us.

5. If she is dating that is something to be expected given her relationship status and desire to start a family and I shouldn't judge that

6. If she is dating , it strongly supports an emotional affair, I should judge that

There is no statement here that is more true than the other.  I don't see this as an issue of judgement one way or the other.

There are some clear indications she was having an emotional affair.  The fact that she is dating (or not) does not support an affair directly.  The speed at which it occurred and opportunity does.   She literally doesn't have time to date or meet people.  Her training program is too time intensive.  This would be a case of her latching onto the first person who validated her, someone she is in the program with and had regular contact with. 

7. I don't have a solution we can both buy into - maybe we could find one, not sure.

8. I believe I have a solution (something new) that we can both get comfortable with

At this point, 7 is more true than 8.

9 She owes me an apology

10 I owe her an apology.

Both are true equally. 

That said, it was her actions that sent us down this path to begin with this year and her continued refusal to acknowledge what she had done to me emotionally and to the health and stability of the relationship just made it worse.  This is all detailed in various threads I have started. 

Regardless of why it happened, I should have made more of an effort to communicate with her what I was going through and what I needed from her.  I did try on several occasions but got nowhere with her.  It is difficult to get her to see what she had done to me when she believed she had done nothing wrong.   I gave up trying and I shouldn't have.

I allowed myself to withdraw from her after becoming very depressed because she had shattered my trust in her.  She then compounded the issue by adding a few more very minor deceptions onto the month long one.   I didn't bring these to her attention at the time they occurred, nor do I think she was even aware of them herself.   It was at that point I crashed and shutdown.  This is when I started to feel it was her responsibility to step up and show me she cared about my emotions without me "leading her to the water" ... .but she never did.   Again, I shouldn't have allowed myself to withdraw like I did, but it happened and understandably so. 

Keep in mind she is undiagnosed pwBPD.   

I ask this as "more of the same",  "a note with little credibility" , or "no answers" probably isn't going to advance this.  If you only have one bullet, don't pull the trigger until you have something in your sites.

If you are speaking in terms of the content of the letter I completely agree.   The question is how to find the golden bullet.

[C.Stein]

Keep in mind that in the end you want a dialog. It may be more important how you say thing than what you say. It may be more important what you ask than what you tell.

There is wisdom in these words, how to apply them is however more difficult.

There is a very real issue I face with her and that is her problem with misinterpreting what is said.  She has a known learning disorder, I am unsure what it is exactly but it involves comprehension.  I have seen this manifest itself repeatedly throughout our relationship where she reads/hears something entirely different than what was written/said.  

Given this ... .

How I say it must be clear so there is no chance of misinterpretation.

How I say it must be clear I am not taking responsibility for her actions.

How I say it must be clear how much I love and care for her wellbeing.

How I say it must be clear that her feelings and needs are just as important as mine, without appearing to sacrifice my own feelings and needs.

The only thing I can see asking her for is her forgiveness for hurting her.  This seems selfish to me.  

If I ask her what I can do to make this right this might appear as taking complete responsibility for what has happened.  

If she does see it that way, and she very well could, it would be misleading her.

[Skip]

The only thing I can see asking her for is her forgiveness for hurting her.  

Well, you could apologize to her for the things you did. You could tell her you understand and respect her concerns regarding motherhood and you were not open minded about as you should have been, and you wish had been. You could wish her a Merry Christmas. No "asks" at this point (give it credibility).

The idea being to plant the seed of "we're don't need to be at war" and give it some time to grow. As you said, she doesn't grasp thing quickly.  This is a pretty big change in direction. She may need a few days, a week to work through her own feeling to even be able to say, "thanks".

If I ask her what I can do to make this right this might appear as taking complete responsibility for what has happened.  

If you can't do this (and you have to respect yourself in all of this), then you have to ask if you're ready.  You may not be.

I understand your point about wanting to flush out whether she was talking with someone else during your relationship.  I understand you being concerned that you don't want to give her a win (see it was his fault, he admitted it).  I can understand that you don't want to alter your own personal value that there should be no consideration of having a child until the relations is well established.  At the same time, this is what she walked away from... .none of it is going to be attractive to her.

[chump]

Hey CS,

I feel you man, I and many of us here have been right where you are, trying to pull a relationship out of a death-spiral. Rough.

I am not a person who believes marriage/children can fix anything.  If the relationship is not stable and strong, if there is no commitment to each other before marriage, then the chances of a successful marriage are significantly reduced.  I am looking for the secure and stable relationship first before I can promise the family.  I believe this is the most healthy thing to do in a relationship that might lead to marriage.  I made this very clear to her in the beginning.

This is solid granite here, really well stated, and as strong and healthy a foundation as anyone could ask for when contemplating marriage. In a few words you have clearly described your values, and they're unimpeachable.

You also wrote this:

Keep in mind she is undiagnosed pwBPD.   

I wanted to juxtapose those two statements to highlight the contrast.  You've written a lot of thngs about her choices and behavior that are in stark contrast to your stated values, but this summarizes them succinctly.

It seems to me this is the heart of the matter.  It might even be fair to say that your stated values about marriage are irreconcilable with an undiagnosed pwBPD.  At minimum, you certainly have described two people with starkly contrasting values.

If the question is just about how to reach out, I've been right where you are. I would recommend keeping it short, be sincere, tell her you miss her and are open to reconnecting if she is open to it, express regret for the ways you hurt her and maybe just a bit of optimism about a happier future, vaguely defined.  Don't push, definitely don't beg, and leave it up to her.

It's a hard spot to be in, but your strength, clarity of values, sincerity and openness for a reconnection, are your best attributes, and she'll either realize it... .now or in the future... .or she won't.

Chump

[C.Stein]

Well, you could apologize to her for the things you did.

I have done this, in person and in email.  However I see things more clearly now and could reiterate.  I have to be careful here though, she already told me to stop apologizing that last time I saw her.  This might indicate it is triggering her.

You could tell her you understand and respect her concerns regarding motherhood and you were not open minded about as you should have been, and you wish had been.

Yes, this could be done and I haven't really done that at all.  This is something I regret and see now I was marginalizing her desire for children.  

The initial reason why I told her that I couldn't be a father was because I was questioning my health, mostly due to the physical symptoms of heart attack and stroke as a result of the stress, anxiety and likely PTSD that I was experiencing after the admission of the deception.  These symptoms have been with me nearly the entire year.  A trip to the ER cleared that up, but that came about 6 weeks after the end of the relationship.   So this wasn't really an issue of open mindedness about having children, it was a real legitimate concern about being there for our child.  That said I definitely could have approached it differently than I did.  

I have come to realize now that the health concerns were only part of my hesitation.  When it came up the last time we were intimate (about a week or so after second discard)  I felt real fear at the prospect of a child.  I know now that fear was mostly due to how unstable and uncertain our relationship was and my concerns about her.   I used my health concerns at the time to avoid talking about the real issue that was bothering me.  It was not fair to her or myself that I did that, another regret causing some guilt and remorse.  She has now latched onto this as one more justification to walk away.  I can't give her what she needs (her words).

The idea being to plant the seed of "we're don't need to be at war" and give it some time to grow. As you said, she doesn't grasp thing quickly.  This is a pretty big change in direction. She may need a few days, a week to work through her own feeling to even be able to say, "thanks".

Yes, sometimes she does need to think about things in order to truly grasp it.  She can also end up distorting it even more.  I need to be clear with what I say and leave no room for creative interpretation.

If you can't do this (and you have to respect yourself in all of this), then you have to ask if you're ready.  You may not be.

Yes, I see your point.  I don't have a problem asking her what I can do to fix it or even doing it as long as it is reasonable.  I already have a good idea what I need to do if fixing is even an option at this point.  I knew what she wanted and needed from me this year and when I withdrew I wasn't giving her what she needed.  This however may have changed at this point.  

This is where it gets sticky though.   There is a very fine line here between being accommodating and being a doormat.   All too often I have put aside my own emotional needs for her and have got nothing in return.  What I mean by "in return" is treating me with honesty, respect and caring; showing empathy and compassion when I am hurting.   There is the very good possibility I will do what it takes to make it right (I have before) but it will not be reciprocated.  This endeavour needs the be one we both take, not just me, especially given it was my trust that was betrayed.   How do you convey that without pushing her away at the same time?  

I understand your point about wanting to flush out whether she was talking with someone else during your relationship.  I understand you being concerned that you don't want to give her a win (see it was his fault, he admitted it).  I can understand that you don't want to alter your own personal value that there should be no consideration of having a child until the relations is well established.  At the same time, this is what she walked away from... .none of it is going to be attractive to her.

I am more than happy to give her a "win" where it is deserved.  She had every right to resent and be angry with me, I wasn't being the type of partner she needed regardless of good reasons for withdrawing.   It doesn't really matter what she did to me, I should have at least considered her needs and I didn't.  Quite simply I stopped caring and she didn't seem to care to find out why.  We both contributed to the withdrawal and I have apologized for my part.  :)o I need to reiterate because I am beginning to sound like a broken record and I think it is frustrating her, at least that was the impression I got when we said goodbye.

I sincerely believe she walked away because she couldn't take responsibility for, or face the consequences of her actions.  It is also quite likely she had found a new undamaged man to make her feel good about herself again.  When she looked at me all she saw was the damage she had done and just couldn't take it anymore.  I simply didn't make her feel good about herself anymore.  I had become a trigger.  

It was easier for her to walk away than to accept responsibility and work with me to repair the damage.  Six months later, after watching me struggle with what she had done, she still didn't believe she had done anything wrong and said as much.  In her mind this was something that I should have fixed alone, this was my problem and my responsibility.  She also probably felt like I was punishing her (I wasn't) and she may have been getting support from others to believe that, I don't know.   The day after telling me about the deception she expected me to be over it and when I was uncomfortable around her she got incredibly angry.  Then things were said by her that made the deception seem pale in comparison and brought into question her core character ... .past, present and future.

Now we are here and this remains a problem.  She likely sees all the bad within herself in me, regardless of new relationship or not.   I don't think she can live with this and I don't know if this can be fixed or even how to fix it.   It cannot be fixed via a single email for sure.  I have become an all too convenient scapegoat.   I know this is in part true because she has convinced herself I believe she is a pathological liar (said in anger day of second discard) and is using this, in part, to justify walking away.   I have apologized for this on numerous occasions but she was still stuck on that when we said our goodbyes.  It makes me wonder why she is still stuck on that if she doesn't believe there might be some truth in it?

With regard to values.  She and I both agreed in the beginning of the relationship that we need a secure and stable relationship to build a family on.  This is not a value unique to me, this is a shared value.  The problem is I think her idea of stable and secure differs from mine.   She has lost sight of what it takes to build that type of relationship and she doesn't really seem all that willing to do what it takes when we were together.  

I have told her a couple of times she wants to win the marathon without running the race.   She just wants the family and child NOW and hopes that everything else will just work itself out.  This type of thinking is what leads to unstable homes and broken marriages.    When she is in her right mind she know this is what she wants too, but her clock is ticking so loud the voice of reason is a mere whisper in the wind.   I will not knowingly walk the path to what could very likely end up broken family and home with her or anyone.  If this is what she needs from me to make it right, to put on the blindfold and jump, then there will be no reconciliation even if she is interested.  

The point here is the things I need from her she also needs for herself and she has expressed this to me.  I have given these to her throughout the relationship but reciprocation has been inconsistent on her part, hence all the emotional damage to me.  The only place where our values really collide is she knows she wants children and I am ambivalent.  There is a minor clash on marriage, but that is minor.  I have no significant problem with marriage or children if we have the type of relationship we both have expressed a need for to raise a family.

So what will be attractive to her when she is being mature and rational?   Hope.  

[C.Stein]

This is solid granite here, really well stated, and as strong and healthy a foundation as anyone could ask for when contemplating marriage. In a few words you have clearly described your values, and they're unimpeachable.

You also wrote this:

Keep in mind she is undiagnosed pwBPD.   

I wanted to juxtapose those two statements to highlight the contrast.  You've written a lot of thngs about her choices and behavior that are in stark contrast to your stated values, but this summarizes them succinctly.

It seems to me this is the heart of the matter.  It might even be fair to say that your stated values about marriage are irreconcilable with an undiagnosed pwBPD.  At minimum, you certainly have described two people with starkly contrasting values.

The reason I brought that up is because I am unsure if her behavior is out of her control or not.  It was unrelated to my statement about marriage, it could have been placed anywhere in that post.  This is one of the biggest reasons I am having a hard time letting her go.  While she does display some classic BPD traits, they were not consistent enough for me to say with certainty she suffers from BPD, with exception to the first 5-6 months of our relationship, first 4 months being the worst of them all.  I did take several screening tests using my knowledge of her and they all showed she is quite likely suffering from BPD, but without formal diagnosis the question remains. 

As I explained above in my response to skip, our values are mostly aligned.  We both agree that a secure and stable relationship is needed for a family, but I think where we differ is in the definition of this.

If the question is just about how to reach out, I've been right where you are. I would recommend keeping it short, be sincere, tell her you miss her and are open to reconnecting if she is open to it, express regret for the ways you hurt her and maybe just a bit of optimism about a happier future, vaguely defined.  Don't push, definitely don't beg, and leave it up to her.

It's a hard spot to be in, but your strength, clarity of values, sincerity and openness for a reconnection, are your best attributes, and she'll either realize it... .now or in the future... .or she won't.

Chump

Thank you for you advice.  This will probably be the last time I contact her, if I decide to contact her at all.  I need to get it right if I do send it.   I slammed the door shut in my last email a month ago.  Reaching out to her now would go against what I said in my last email, that I would not contact her again.  No reply from her if I send this means I need to find a way to let her go.  Funny thing is, in these 3 threads I have gotten far closer to being OK with letting her go than I was before I started them.

[Skip]

I slammed the door shut in my last email a month ago.  Reaching out to her now would go against what I said in my last email, that I would not contact her again.  No reply from her if I send this means I need to find a way to let her go.  Funny thing is, in these 3 threads I have gotten far closer to being OK with letting her go than I was before I started them.

Maybe posting that email here will help those helping you?

[C.Stein]

I slammed the door shut in my last email a month ago.  Reaching out to her now would go against what I said in my last email, that I would not contact her again.  No reply from her if I send this means I need to find a way to let her go.  Funny thing is, in these 3 threads I have gotten far closer to being OK with letting her go than I was before I started them.

Maybe posting that email here will help those helping you?

Her one and only email to me since the discard.  I have sent probably 6 or so.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286180.msg12697278#msg12697278

This was the long harsh truth email I sent a week later, one month ago to the day.  At that point I considered this was over, but looking back to when we said goodbye there were some slight signs that she may not be in a new relationship.  If she did have an affair or is in a new relationship then it is over, regardless of what happens with a new BF.   Once she crossed that line she knew there would be no coming back, regardless of our relationship status.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=287048.msg12705571#msg12705571

[Skip]

She sent this 8 weeks ago after not responding to 6 emails... .

Different paths

Thank you for all of your caring and your concern for me and my well-being.  This email is not to hurt you or written out of malice. I want you to know that I have moved on and you must do the same. Meaning that I am in a new relationship and do not wish to have any past relations be involved in my life going forward.  I didn't want to tell you before because I didn't think it was necessary, I thought you would leave me be.  Please do not call or text me anymore.

I wish you the best

You bypassed her request and responded, in part, with the long "harsh truth" note, 4 weeks ago, which culminated in... .

As much as it breaks my heart and brings me unfathomable sorrow to say this ... .

you are dead to me now.[/i]

Do you think her note does not represent her true feelings and her relationship status? You said that if she is in a relationship, you have no interest in pursuing this.

I might think after the 8 note exchange (7 from you, 1 from her), this is clamped down pretty hard.  As a first step, do you think you should (or can) go any further than to apologize, say you were hurt, and wish her a happy holiday?

[guy4caligirl]

Different paths

Thank you for all of your caring and your concern for me and my well-being.  This email is not to hurt you or written out of malice. I want you to know that I have moved on and you must do the same. Meaning that I am in a new relationship and do not wish to have any past relations be involved in my life going forward.  I didn't want to tell you before because I didn't think it was necessary, I thought you would leave me be.  Please do not call or text me anymore.

I wish you the best

C.Stein


I have heard and received the same exact email 4 months ago !  This is what she feels at the moment but that does not mean it wouldn't change ?

[C.Stein]

She sent this 8 weeks ago after not responding to 6 emails... .

She sent that 5 weeks ago the day after I sent her a text to let her know her website was down.  First email I sent was a "closure" email that I sent the day before we met to exchange stuff.  That happened 2 months ago give or take a couple of days.

I then sent her several more superficial short emails in the following 3 weeks, some pictures and stuff, and two that informed her of my discovery of her potentially suffering from BPD and some resources so she could learn more about it.  A short reply to her email on the same day she sent it, then the last email a week later (1 month ago).  There has been NC since.

You bypassed her request and responded, in part, with the long "harsh truth" note, 4 weeks ago, which culminated in... .

I didn't bypass her request.  I have respected her request to not call or text, she said nothing about email and would have if she wanted to close that communication avenue as well.

Do you think her note does not represent her true feelings and her relationship status? You said that if she is in a relationship, you have no interest in pursuing this.

Honestly I don't really know.  It could go both ways.   If she does have a new BF then the email was constructed in a manner that she could show it to him.  This is something she would do, offering it up as proof she is open and honest.  She did the same thing with me.  I also hear a lot of resentment and bitterness in that email (which comes from knowing her).  If she really is in a new relationship, which she may very well be, then this is no longer an issue.  She will move out of the area (she doesn't have to move) sometime in the next 3-4 months, whenever her lease runs out which may be this month, and she will be gone forever.   End story.

If there were a complete absence of signs that she might still have feelings for me then this would be a non issue.  However there were some indications when I said goodbye to her that suggest otherwise.   This is what has brought me to this point. 

I might think after the 8 note exchange (7 from you, 1 from her), this is clamped down pretty hard.  As a first step, do you think you should (or can) go any further than to apologize, say you were hurt, and wish her a happy holiday?

You are correct and I have already decided I will go no further than that.  If I send a note there will be no request to reconcile.  If it goes any further than this note it will have to be initiated by her.  I suspect there is about a 1-2% chance of that happening.

I am at the end of the beach and have turned over every stone but one.  This is the last stone and the door to letting her go is in front of me.  Sending this note may very well be the key to opening that door.  I am in the process of constructing a new note now and will post it here when finished for review.

I will say this though.  These last three threads I started have been enormously helpful in finally merging her back into a whole person in my mind. 

[C.Stein]

I have heard and received the same exact email 4 months ago !  This is what she feels at the moment but that does not mean it wouldn't change ?

It is a possibility, however unlikely.  With her it is hard to tell.  I can see her writing that because she has found a way to blame me for everything and is still harbouring a great deal of anger and resentment, this is her lashing out.  She could have also written it because she sees me as a dead end (I'm not) even though she still has feelings for me.   Contact with me might also be triggering her own shame and guilt and she is trying to avoid that.   All that said, the chances that she really is in a new relationship are pretty good.

Of course this could all could be just an exercise in grasping at nearly invisible straws for me, but it has helped immensely in the healing process.

[Skip]

Of course this could all could be just an exercise in grasping at nearly invisible straws for me, but it has helped immensely in the healing process.

Absolutely. It was a good intelligent and open discussion. You got to balance conflicting emotions.  I lot of us struggle to do that.

[C.Stein]

New draft ... .



"Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace." -Buddha


As I seek peace within I must free myself of resentment and welcome into my heart compassion and forgiveness.

As I embrace compassion I find myself walking your path.  I see how you felt mislead, abandon, unloved, rejected.  I understand how hurt and alone you must have felt.  I took away your hopes and dreams.  I let you down and I am deeply sorry for the pain and suffering I have caused.

As I embrace forgiveness I must release my resentment, anger and bitterness.  I no longer want these feelings, they are poison to my soul.  So in this season of giving I extend to you the only gift I have to give  ... .my love and forgiveness.

I mourn the loss of my friend and companion with whom I shared a love so deep.  While sadness and sorrow still fill my heart I find joy in the memory of moments shared.  To experience these moments of love with you has enriched my life beyond comparison.  I am privileged to have shared this beautiful and inimitable love with you.  I thank you from the depths of my heart for the opportunity to share my life with you, however fleeting it may have been.

The melody of our love and dream persists in my mind.  The house on the hill, you and the children sitting on the swing in our tree ... .so happy, loved and content we are.  The melody will play on as I walk through life.  I will live our dream in my heart for it is too special, too precious to let perish.  This gift I give to myself.

Thank you for sharing your heart and time with me.

[patientandclear]

 CS--I think you are trying to do too much here. I think it would work better to send her a holiday card and ask if she feels like having a beer sometime. Honestly. Let the r/ship evolve through actual relating, not in a letter with a bunch of unilateral declarations.

Three things. One: you tell her how she feels. Can you see that? I know it's embedded in you taking responsibility, perhaps too much responsibility. But you are telling her you took away her this that and the other. What if she doesn't feel that right now? If there are THINGS you did you regret, you might name some, but the effect on her is for her to say.

Second: it reads like a grief and mourning and goodbye letter. You sound mournful but done. "Thank you. It's over and now I'm reflecting on things with appreciation" is the tone. Unless I'm mistaken, you are hoping for reconnection, right? You need not say that, and probably should not, but this rear-view mirror tone is the opposite of an opening to something going forward.

Finally, there is so much heavy language and drama here. I think it makes anyone uncomfortable to be talked about in such terms. Flip it around. Would it not make you squirm slightly to hear these superlatives and epic descriptions from someone you dated? I know it does me.

I think you need less, and lighter!

[C.Stein]

CS--I think you are trying to do too much here. I think it would work better to send her a holiday card and ask if she feels like having a beer sometime. Honestly. Let the r/ship evolve through actual relating, not in a letter with a bunch of unilateral declarations.

I agree, it will not happen though.  This letter needs to bridge a gap that is best worked on in person, but again, not likely to happen.  In that respect it needs to be both a release for me and a crack in the door for her if she should choose to push it open.  That said, I am uncertain if reconciliation is going to be an option for either one of us. 

Three things. One: you tell her how she feels. Can you see that? I know it's embedded in you taking responsibility, perhaps too much responsibility. But you are telling her you took away her this that and the other. What if she doesn't feel that right now? If there are THINGS you did you regret, you might name some, but the effect on her is for her to say.

I'm not trying to tell her how she feels, I know that is how she was feeling this year when we were still together.  I am trying to empathize with those feelings.  I don't know how she feels now, only how she felt then, and it is this I address.  I certainly don't want to take responsibility for anything that is not mine to own.  I removed the "I took away your hopes and dreams." part ... .that is taking it too far ... .especially considering she is largely responsible for that.

Second: it reads like a grief and mourning and goodbye letter. You sound mournful but done. "Thank you. It's over and now I'm reflecting on things with appreciation" is the tone. Unless I'm mistaken, you are hoping for reconnection, right? You need not say that, and probably should not, but this rear-view mirror tone is the opposite of an opening to something going forward.

Yup, that pretty much is it (bold).  I do see what you are saying ... .it gives the impression I am "moving on" as she instructed me to do.

To be honest, I don't know if reconciliation is what I want and moving on may be the thing that needs to happen, or I simply may not have a choice (if new relationship is true). 

There simply may be too much water under the bridge ... .the hill too steep to climb.  This is something I have to carefully consider if we were to talk person to person.   The opportunity to discuss our feelings in person would be the ideal scenario and to take it from there.   She needs to feel hope with me and that I don't hate her or think she is a bad person.  It is very important she feels this when/if she were to read the letter.  I don't know if plainly stating it will work ... .it didn't when I said goodbye to her.

I'm not so much trying to convey a rear view mirror tone here but rather deep appreciation and gratitude for what I have shared with her and how special it was for both of us.  By doing so I am also implying it could be special again ... .without actually coming out and saying it. 

How does one speak of the past without looking in the rear view mirror?

Finally, there is so much heavy language and drama here. I think it makes anyone uncomfortable to be talked about in such terms. Flip it around. Would it not make you squirm slightly to hear these superlatives and epic descriptions from someone you dated? I know it does me.

She loves the heavy language and drama, that is why I wrote it that way.  The more poetic the better, it will touch her heart.  It wouldn't make me squirm I don't think, I guess everyone is different.  Speaking in matters of the heart I think I would prefer poetic over succinct and to the point. at times.   Is this one of those times?   

She would gush whenever I wrote her a poem or story with the heavy language ... .gushing might be what I need here?

I think you need less, and lighter!

This may be the last time I ever communicate with her, I need to cover a lot of bases here.  Beyond that, we are not on "less and light" terms.  I feel that would be appropriate for people who are in LC, as opposed to what I am facing.  Would you agree? 

Inviting her out to have coffee or something would be almost certainly be summarily dismissed by her without question at this point in time.  She won't even ask me to fix her website let alone agree to have coffee.  I did have specific things that I apologized for in earlier drafts but on recommendation of some members I removed them because it was making it too much about me and not enough about her and us.

The only way I feel I can get through to her is to touch her heart ... .a difficult thing to do in a single email at this point.  I think what I am trying to do here is forgive her, forgive myself and leave the door cracked for at least a possible friendship sometime in the future. 

The last paragraph could be interpreted in two different ways ... .one that gives a sense of finality and resignation ... .the other a sense of hope that there might be a chance to make it work ... .to get the dream.  Can she pick up on that I don't know ... .it depends on where her mind is right now.  If she is having regrets about letting me go then I suspect she will latch onto that latter interpretation rather than the former.

I do agree the overall sense of finality is a bit foreboding on the surface.

Thanks PaC, I appreciate your input here, it helps clarify.

[patientandclear]

Gushing and poetry is way different in a r/ship than when outside of that context, somehow. The human heart is weird.

But you know her obviously, and your history, and the context, and I may be over-identifying from my own experience.

Not everything needs to be said. I've had to learn that over time. Sometimes what is unsaid is more interesting.

[C.Stein]

Gushing and poetry is way different in a r/ship than when outside of that context, somehow. The human heart is weird.

I completely agree.  It is dependent on the person though.  She is very much stuck emotionally in her mid-late teens early 20's at best.  She thinks relationships should be like a Disney movie ... .almost literally.

If I were the one to receive this I may or may not receive it well.  It would depend on how I what I was feeling for her at the time I got it.  That said, I am not her, nor am I emotionally stuck in my teens.

All in all it could go either way.  The only way she will consider talking with me is if she still has feelings for me and has found a way to not see me as a waste of time.  If she does, this type of email might appeal to those feelings.   If however her heart is cold then it probably won't work and it won't really matter at that point anyhow.  This is all assuming she is not in a new relationship, of which the likelihood of that being true is very small.

Not everything needs to be said. I've had to learn that over time. Sometimes what is unsaid is more interesting.

This email has been already been reduced by about 95%.

I made some minor modifications.  Some explanation.

First three paragraphs are intended to let her know I understand (or am trying to) what she was going through.  It also is intended to help release her from some guilt along with possibly helping her to find the way to release her resentment and find some peace within herself.

The second two are meant to illustrate how much I treasured my time with her and how much she meant to me.  It also leaves some room for interpretation if she should feel that she made a mistake.   The house on the hill and the tree are very meaningful and significant for both of us.  If this doesn't appeal to her heart than nothing will.  Of course there is the chance it could result in a negative trigger.  I can't second guess everything nor effectively address every possible scenario in an email that will be read ... .I wish I could.

The whole letter is also release and forgiveness for myself, so I am writing it for me as much as I am for her.

The revision.



"Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace." -Buddha


As I seek peace within I must free myself of resentment and welcome into my heart compassion and forgiveness.

As I embrace compassion I find myself walking your path.  I see how you felt mislead, abandon, unloved, uncared for.  I understand how hurt and alone you must have felt.  I let you down and I am deeply sorry for the pain and suffering I have caused.

As I embrace forgiveness I must release my resentment, anger and bitterness.  I no longer want these feelings, they are poison to my soul.  So in this season of giving I extend to you the only gift I have to give  ... .my love and forgiveness.

I mourn the loss of my friend and companion with whom I shared a love so deep. While sadness and sorrow still fill my heart I find joy in the memory of moments shared, wishing for more to be made.  Experiencing these moments of love with you has enriched my life beyond comparison.  I am privileged to have shared this beautiful and unique love with you.  I thank you from the depths of my heart for the opportunity to share my life with you.

The melody of our love and dream persists in my mind.  The house on the hill, you and the children sitting on the swing in our tree ... .so happy, loved and content we are.  The melody will play on as I walk through life.  I will live our dream in my heart for it is too special, too precious to let perish.  This gift I give to myself.

I wish our time together had not ended.

[formflier]

  I'm a big fan of writing letters (in google docs) and then editing them down.  Most never get sent.  It is a great way to work things out.  Focus on what patientandclear said about not everything needing to be (actually) said.  Consider that those things need to be said (to yourself) and experience those feelings (for yourself).  Focus on Skip's suggestion to plant a seed.  Let that analogy take hold.  I'm 5th generation in a farming family.  There are many times it takes several years to get a field "right" again to grow good crops.    If you really want to send her a note.  Consider a couple options.  1.  "I wish our time together had not ended.  I'll be in your area this coming Friday and hope you can join me for a beer."  how does this version seem different.  2.  "I'll be in your area this coming Friday and hope you can join me for a beer."   Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone that has written things to you in the past about r/s being over.  Which of the above notes would seem less threatening?  Which of the above notes do you think have the best chance of success?        

FF

[Skip]

C'

These are beautifully written notes and expressions. Writing them has great healing power.

Three things. One: you tell her how she feels. Can you see that? I know it's embedded in you taking responsibility, perhaps too much responsibility. But you are telling her you took away her this that and the other. What if she doesn't feel that right now? If there are THINGS you did you regret, you might name some, but the effect on her is for her to say.

Second: it reads like a grief and mourning and goodbye letter. You sound mournful but done. "Thank you. It's over and now I'm reflecting on things with appreciation" is the tone. Unless I'm mistaken, you are hoping for reconnection, right? You need not say that, and probably should not, but this rear-view mirror tone is the opposite of an opening to something going forward.

Finally, there is so much heavy language and drama here. I think it makes anyone uncomfortable to be talked about in such terms. Flip it around. Would it not make you squirm slightly to hear these superlatives and epic descriptions from someone you dated? I know it does me.

I think you need less, and lighter

I think, IMHO, that is a very constructive analysis, patientandclear.

C.Stein, when you're writing to yourself, as you say you have in the note, those are best kept here. All of your drafts have been incredibly heartfelt. I can feel all that emotion, we all can - my heart goes out to you with great compassion. I remember those painful feelings myself. Did you ever watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKXQ1nf_Yl8 - it reminds me of your writing.

Focus on Skip's suggestion to plant a seed.  Let that analogy take hold.  I'm 5th generation in a farming family.  There are many times it takes several years to get a field "right" again to grow good crops.  

I'd tap my Scotty Peck empathy skills. Think about where her freight train is on the track and write to that. She is not in mourning - she told you this, she has moved past it. To add to the draft concepts from formflier and others have shared, here is another one (example only - not a draft)

Allison, I wanted to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas. I'm headed to Boston to celebrate with the family. I was looking at my last email to you and I wanted to apologize for the things I said - I was hurt and lashing out - I was wrong.

Anyway << say something here that she has a found memory of>>, <<make an action statement>>, <<tell her something great about her (pick one)>>

Merry Christmas, Klien