Large Family divorce

[teapay]

Although I've been trying to hold my family together despite my W's BPD, I'm starting to think it might not be possible.  I've hoped after many years she would stabilize, but she really hasn't.  I've become more and more concerned about the future of our kids and the solvency of the family, not withstanding the likely unrepairable damage to our marital relationship

We have five kids under the age of 11.  My two youngest are 3yrs old twins.  I'm trying to envision what a divorce would  or could look like in regards to custody and finances.  My W is a teacher but hasn't worked in over 10 years, except a few part time jobs.  I'm trying to get her back to working full time, at least when our youngest go full time school, but I wonder if she is still able due to her mental and physical health issues.  Her working and supporting herself would be a big help.  I highly doubt if she could handle the 5 kids without my help, which is considerable. The stress related to their care definitely causes her problems.  She can't take it for long.  She also doesn't have the financial discipline to manage her affairs. She doesnt have the discipline to clean and take care of a house consistently.  I'd fear vermin.  I often think of trying to unload her, but even setting her up on her own would draw off alot of assets that I would need for child care if I get primary custody, especially if she is not working.  I would not mind shared custody but it is very difficult for me to imagine primary custody with her not ending in disaster for her and the kids.

I guess my main concerns would be getting primary custody of the kids, keeping the house so they can finish school and paying for child care.  Other than that I know I can take care of all the kids alone.  Ive been essentially doing it for years.  My W might be amenable to this.  She does care about the kids and has expressed a desire to leave.  But with her and BPD who really knows.   I haven't approach her too much on it yet.

Just thought I throw that out there if anyone has been in similar circumstances and had any advice to give.

[livednlearned]

Hi teapay,

Welcome to the family law board -- I'm sorry your marriage does not look like it can hold together. It's always a sad and difficult realization.

Even if you choose to stay, it's a good idea to run through the divorce scenario so that if things get worse, you understand how the process works where you live.

A lot of people on this board have high-conflict divorces. Typically, a high-conflict divorce is with someone who is what Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse) calls a high-conflict personality or HCP. Not all people with BPD are HCP, although all HCPs have a personality disorder. They also tend to be people who recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have a target of blame (you).

How your divorce would go depends a lot on whether your wife is an HCP or not. It also depends on whether she is generally cooperative and not dangerous. Some people with BPD are not cooperative and dangerous, and it's a different story when there are substance abuse issues, co-morbid diagnoses, and intimate partner or domestic violence.

How would you describe your wife? Has she been diagnosed? What are the behaviors that most concern you when it comes to the kids?

And how are you and the kids doing?

[ForeverDad]

My Ex used to sob, cry, moan and groan before we separated after a 911 call.  I recall begging her to get up so I could go to work, our son was two at the time, and her replying, "I'll get up after you leave."  What a dilemma.  However, when her behaviors became more extreme and she was trying to picture me as a Bad Guy, she shifted out of that phase and became very antagonistic.  My divorce was very high conflict with a multitude of 'unsubstantiated' allegations.

My Ex didn't work after our son was born but once we separated she did have to get income.  I have never been told her income, in court it was always imputed as minimum wage.  She's really depended on child support.

How a divorce would turn out for you just can't be predicted though odds are high you'll get at least some obstruction, sabotage, delays and probably allegations too.  Expect attempts to blame, blame-shift, guilt and obligate you.  (FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt)  Be prepared if it's horrendous, but you can also hope for it to be somewhat less conflictual.  Probably somewhere in between.

Generally, divorce takes quite some time, usually at least a year and sometimes two or more.  So figure that your kids will all be in school by the time you get a final decree or soon thereafter.  Daycare before and/or after school may be necessary, but she has no excuse not to work.  She can if she has to.  Millions do it every week.  (Though there are some here who describe how their Ex-spouses are masters at avoiding getting and keeping a job.)

Meanwhile, don't complicate things even more with risking a baby.  All it takes is one "Oops, I forgot!"  That could set you back strategy-wise.

[teapay]

My W is dx with BPD.  She somewhat accepts the dx.  Kind of on and off with it.  Always trying to shake it off to something else.  She is in DBT, is on alot of meds and has been in alot if therapy.  In alot of ways, she is doing what she should be doing, but it doesn't translate much into her daily life at home.  It pretty apparent at home her brain is misfiring and having difficulties.  It's been like that for several years.  Any progress tends to be whack a mole.

As a BPD I'd say she is inherently high conflict, but over the years has dipped to be less HCP, particularly since I've given her doses of it back.  She likes to dish it out, but getting in back leads to all kinds if self harm, suicidal ideation and implusivity .  I tend to be a LCP, but I can turn on the HCP if I need to.

Her symptoms are generally focused on me and not so much the kids, so they are protected somewhat with me around.  All of them are negatively effected, though, mainly by what they see and what she models for them.  I can be a buttress but it seems to have a limited effect in the midst of dysfunction.  The eldest D is in counseling and the others could easily be too.  The youngest are alittle developmentally delayed, because she has not been able to give them the attention they need when I'm at work.  They do love her though and would not want us the split.  Somehow I've been able to hold things together and mitigate as much damage as I can, but I am tiring of it and I sense the tide of mental dysfunction might eventually just overwhelm all of us despite the best efforts and intentions.  It is kind of relentless.

She knows she negatively effects them.  She seems not to want to mother them much anymore.  She has talked about divorcing me, wants to do other things with her life.

At first that kind of talk took me off guard, but eventually after hearing it too much I became ---"You know, that might be really good for you, let's look into making that happen".  She has brought it up less and less since.  I think she would be absolutely terrified if I just said---okay, here are the kids, the assets, child support, etc... .---enjoy, bye.  I guess I could just walk away and just pay.  I'd probably be easier for me, but it is hard to imagine a disaster not happening for her and the kids.

I do plan to try to feel her out more.  Get a better sense.  But the inherent instability generally makes me wary.

[david]

I would start recording what is going on or at least write it all down (times ,dates, what happened). This would be very useful in a custody eval if it comes to that. A dx of BPD by itself is not as helpful as specific instances. The two together would go a long way in getting what is best for the kids.

[teapay]

Yes, I've started documenting somethings, particularly overt things like suicidal ideation or ER visits.  Things have been worse.  One thing that has been tricky is trying to document or provide evidence of what might happen if I am not around to provide care.  For example, I do alot of childcare and basic home care that wouldn't get done if I wasn't around.  It's not always apparent because I do it.  I don't clean my W's bedroom, car or other private things and they are typically a complete disaster for months.  I'll photo them several times a week, so you can see how it looks for extended periods.  I'd fear the whole house would turn into that if I wasn't around.  Same for when I go on a business trip for a few days. When I return I photo the disaster.  Finances is another area where I can show over spending, but I'll be kicking her off the accounts so that will likely go away.  Many of the things I do to protect the family kind of obscure what could happen if she is given those responsibilities.  Should I document all the things I do?  Should I stop doing them, let things crash and then document?

I have talked to her more about separating.  She is afraid of being given primary custody.  She seems to want to be involved, but not the responsibility.  I have a lawyer (she doesn't) I thought about maybe getting a mediator involved.  Any value trying that route to see where it leads?

[teapay]

Also, I'm not sure how this might fit into it, but due her MI issues my W hasn't taken good care of herself and is smoking and up to about 350 lbs now (she had been normal weight up to about 3 or 4 years ago).  It is starting to give her all kinds of other health issues and I'm concern her body might crap out on her and it makes taking care of the kids that much more difficult for her.

[teapay]

Talking more with my W about how she would envision separation, it seems like she wants to leave me with the 5 kids, move away and start a new life (go back to school, start a new career as a clinical psycologist, explore her sexuality, essentially go back 20 years in time until her early 20s).  She still wants some contact and involvement with the kids bUT not enought to interfer wit this other stuff.  I'm okay with that, but it would have huge effects on our finances and childcare for the kids if she leaves.  I'd be worried setting her up would draw off alot of resources the kids would need and also I'm concerned that I might have to support her if she is not working or unable to work.  She has a Master in SPED so you think she would be able to find and maintain stable employment, but she might refuse to do that or be unable.  If she is having a relatively minor role with the kids should she have to send support back to help with childcare.

She doesnt want to cause a financial burden, but I'm not sure she truly comprehends all this.

[ForeverDad]

I don't want to appear unfeeling, especially since on the surface she appears to be checking out, but the typical story here is that us relatively normal parents (mostly fathers) have to fight tooth and nail to have a substantive part in parenting.  Your situation thus far is different, your spouse is seeking to put her adult pursuits before parenting.  Frankly, not everyone is up to the parenting obligations.  Some fathers check out, why would we think that some mothers can't too?  Perhaps that is a future reality you need to accept.

After all, with her being some distance away, there will be less chaos, instability and discord in the house.

Too, court will not force her to be a parent.  They may require her to provide some financial support, but we all know you may be unlikely to get much if anything.

That said, be careful not to overextend yourself making her other life comfortable.  You have no obligation there, or if there is any then your children as minors require the greater obligation, don't let her wishes consume you or your financial soundness.  It's her choice, she's an adult irrespective of MI or not.  Focus on what is best for the children... .stability, calmness, rationality, love and peace.

[livednlearned]

Be very careful about any arrangements you make with her that you cannot sustain. She has a masters degree -- a court would expect her to get out there and hustle to find a job, even if you can't see it happening. Courts do not tend to handle parent problems with kid gloves, in my experience.

If you end up with primary custody (to echo FD, that would be a big coup given your gender and the typical high-conflict custody battles that can do down with someone who is BPD), then you will shoulder more of the financial burden. Anything you agree to do before filing for divorce will become status quo. This could be good in terms of establishing primary custody, but bad if you make arrangements to support her. Also, if she is expected to pay child support, and you know she can't or won't do that, then be prepared to be the one to enforce that. Courts don't do anything unless you file a motion for contempt of court, and even then it will give people three and four chances.   

Keep in mind, too, that how she behaves in the marriage is how she will behave in the divorce and after. If she stonewalls, rages, changes her mind, disassociates, feels entitled, drops the ball, then she'll do that going forward.

Another thing, too, that happens here -- it's not ideal, but it's possible that on paper you share custody and the kids end up spending more time with you because she can't shoulder her share of the care. So in that sense, you seem to have a BPD wife who will make the visitation aspect more favorable to you whether you get full custody or not. It's always better to try and get primary or full custody... .it's also not that easy, even with a spouse who appears to be cooperative.

[ForeverDad]

Right now you have Leverage.  Ponder the implications of that.

She wants to check out of the marriage and pursue her... .adult pursuits, whatever that may be.  So she's itching to go.  Yet it's also possible she will want to keep you simmering on the back burner.

Understand that many states have separate terms and policies for legal custody versus the parenting schedule.  For example, many typical divorces result in 'joint' legal custody but with one 'primary' parent doing the parenting and everyday decisions.  Major decisions such as school, medical, etc are covered under the legal aspect.  However, there is typically one parent who gets assigned as "Residential Parent for School Purposes".

Maybe she won't want to give up "custody".  Most courts default to joint custody and are very reluctant to enforce one parent having full custody if the other isn't agreeable, not unless there is clear basis to take that step.  So what to do if she doesn't want to give up her parental rights to legal custody?  Let's take them one by one.

She will almost certainly agree for you to be the Residential Parent for School Purposes.  She'll be leaving the kids mostly with you and that is to be expected, the kids will go to school where you reside.

She apparently will also agree for you to have majority parenting time.  Court will want to see a schedule.  A common schedule is for one parent to have alternate weekends.  Sometimes it is 2 weekends out of a 4 or 5 weekend month.  You can probably get her to agree about that since she evidently won't be nearby.  If there's a significant distance where such frequent exchanges aren't possible courts usually allow the remote parent to instead have more of the longer school holidays and a larger portion of the summer recess from school.

She may, though, really want to keep joint custody.  She won't want to feel as a mother who failed or was publicly shut out.  As I wrote above, it's usually hard to force sole custody.  So how do you get that in deed if not in name?  Seek for her to agree that you have Decision Making or Tie Breaker status for any disagreements on major issues (school, medical, activities, etc).  So, in name the custody would be joint, she could keep her Public Face but with DM or TB you can effectively sidestep many frustrations if she is unwilling to agree on the major decisions.  Feel out the topic cautiously.  Start with DM or TB first and if she's okay with that then don't even mention her keeping full joint custody.  In other words, don't box yourself into a corner when you don't have to!

Another leverage you have is her awareness of her mental issues.  She won't want that on the record so that makes a reasonable settlement possible, even likely.  For most of us we don't get a settlement until we've been in court for a year or two.  You may have a much easier and quicker outcome.

Beware, don't confuse "reasonable" with "fair".  We who have stuck around for so long often have an otherwise wonderful trait, fairness, that puts us at a distinct disadvantage when dealing with an unbalanced acting-out spouse.  If we try to be fair and nice we'll end up being too fair, too nice, too whatever.  We have to protect ourselves and the children.  Frankly, your sense of fairness, niceness and whathaveyou won't be sincerely reciprocated.  You know how quickly she can switch from Miss Nice to Queen Witch.  Be forewarned.

For example, what if you promise to give her half the marriage's assets, her marital equity, and even support her?  What if she squanders all that, spends herself into debt and then wants to come back as though it was her right to pop back in as though nothing had happened?  Yes, that can happen.  So try to structure things so you won't be stuck with her bills, so you and the kids won't be virtually penniless since she took/spent it all?

I agree with LnL, she has a Master's degree, the court will agree that she ought to be able to support herself, even contribute toward child support.  Don't even feel the least twinge to say, "But I have to tell the court she probably won't get a job and if she does she probably won't keep it!"  No.  She is an adult.  It's her choices.  You have to think ahead and protect yourself and your children and all your futures.  Yes, if in the future you have the wherewithal to send her some extra money or help her in some way, that's fine, no problem, but don't volunteer or obligate yourself to do so!  Court is remarkably uncaring and unfair when it comes to fixing orders that no longer make sense or are even financially crushing.  I recall one member several years ago describing how he was legally separated for years but had to pay support (until all his money was gone) to his independently wealthy wife and then he moved to Texas and lived as a pauper there until he could divorce.  Texas declared him divorced with no alimony obligations.  But his original state wanted the spousal support to be permanent and even filed warrants for his arrest.  His original state didn't care one bit that he went bankrupt paying her support, even child support when their teen son was living with him in a trailer!  Courts give great weight to technicalities and procedures, sometimes they help us, too often they enable a misbehaving spouse.

[Duck_Borders]

Install hidden cameras.  Start getting responses from her in writing about various "BPD crazy stuff".  Collect any evidence you can that will help you.  Do not mention anything about divorce until you've collected enough evidence on her to ensure you get primary custody.  Read the book Splitting.  Do a lot of research.  You'll be so happy you were prepared than if you're like most of us and were not prepared.  You're in a really tough situation with 5 kids... .if she's a real BPD, she will destroy you and use your kids to do so. 

Worst case scenario, she stays "normal" and you don't need any of it and you guys have an amicable divorce, or even better you don't need to get divorced.  Best case scenario - she follows all BPD patterns and goes off the deep end.  Now you have all the ammo you need to bury her and make sure you and your kids are ok.  After going through this for almost 3 years now, going to jail and witnessing the futility of the family court system - I wish I had the necessary ammo to bury my BPD quick.  I wouldn't hesitate, I don't care how wonderful and sweet she can be at times or how much she loves my kid.  They all flip on a switch and will bury you, beat them to it... .

Just my 2 cents.  I wish I had done that.