Odds of her contacting me again-I keep asking... Driving me crazy

[1minuteatatime]

My BPD ex broke it off with me in mid November.  Said I would abandon her. 

I told her that I needed NC for 30 days(just to heal some) and she pretty much respected it.  Except she put a bunch of stuff on her dating profile referring to me directly and then viewed my dating profile. I didn't recognize it was her and opened it up and read the stuff.  All true but it hurt. 

Then she contacted me on day 28 about two small items I didn't need/want/ask for back.  She asked if she could drop it on my porch or car(she dropped all my other stuff in my car the day after break up w/o asking, no need to ask again)  I responded on day 31 and said "I'm here"(which has double meaning because it was my phrase telling her that I care and not going anywhere)  She emailed me back in 3 minutes asking if I was at her place.  I said "no", I'm at my place.  She said she had her kids and couldn't drop the stuff. 

I texted her on 12/23 and said that she could drop the stuff in my car or porch whenever and that I was thinking about her that morning.  She texted me back in one minute saying "will do"  I told her to have a good xmas, later.  She texted "Merry Christmas". 

I had told her that I would be alone on Christmas prior to her breaking up with me.  I did go to a new friend's place for early Christmas dinner and then got home at 5 and started my 19 mile bike ride around my apartment(my normal ride).  When I finished my ride, she was waiting for me.  I was surprised.  She told me that she knew I was home since my car was there and that she wanted to wait. 

She was all dressed up, looked amazing, smelled amazing and I knew that she was alone/going back home alone.  Stupidly, I immediately tried to get in her pants.  I wanted to do that and then talk.  She got upset and left.  I let her leave with no argument.  She texts me 20 minutes later and said "did you just want sex?"  I said no, I wanted to talk... .  She said that was not a good way to approach her.  I admitted I wanted to have sex, too.  She then tried to call me Christmas night. 

I only wanted to talk in person.  We usually fight really bad over text and phone.  She agreed(her idea) to come over on 12/26 if I promised not to try to have sex(because of our sexual chemistry)  I promised and she came over.  I was "invalidating" over and over without friggin' realizing it.  Telling her that wasn't the way I was feeling.  I did listen, just didn't respect her feelings.  I just don't understand communication very well.  Really bad at it.  I also told her that I knew she lied to me about her divorce.  She told me it was over in September and it wasn't.  She apologized and said that she did it because she knew I wanted her to divorce.  I agreed with that and admitted it. 

I also told her that we both have lied about feelings and big things.  That we both have broken promises and that if we were going to try again, we would need to be honest about big things and keep promises.  She told me over text the next day that she got defensive because she never said that she wanted back together.  Typical of me to jump the gun. 

I started the texting on 12/27 basically saying that she is right, we probably were not compatible.  I admit I was looking for a non-response(meaning it was completely over) or a response(meaning that she may be open to reconcile.  Stupid move.  She immediately called me but I was not ready to talk.  I hadn't thought it through. 

We texted for 1 1/2 hrs and at the end she told me she could not accept "conditional love".  That she had "unconditional love".  I am reading about radical acceptance(I think it means accepting any of her feelings, not necessarily accepting any behavior) and realize I am really bad at it.  She said that I am not willing to fight for her.  I called her after her final "no" over text that day.  She told me she was "done" and that she didn't want to talk.  I said ok and hung up(she was talking as I hung up and I didn't hear it until I hit the button).  She then texted me and told me to never text or call her again.  I sent one last text wishing her the best and telling her I will remember the good times.

I will not contact her first again.  I keep asking this.  Do you think she will reach out again? 

I also get angry around this time of year.  12/28/01 was the day my dad committed suicide and I get really angry and take it out on people I love/care about.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[livednlearned]

Hi 1minuteatatime,

I don't think anyone can answer what she will do.

The question may be more about how uncomfortable it is to wait this out and not have any control... .not being in control can make us anxious and fretful. And want answers. Now. 

You're also dealing with a double punch: holidays and a really tough anniversary. When I have had serious, deep feelings I didn't want to process (or didn't know how to), I would distract myself with things I wanted to control, or problems I couldn't solve (ruminating). Control and distractions can give us temporary (but not satisfactory) relief from bigger pain we are afraid to feel.

[EaglesJuju]

Hi 1minuteatatime,

I am sorry for the loss of your father. I can understand how this time of year can be triggering for you.  :)oes your ex know that his time of year is especially difficult for you?

The last conversation did not go so well.  From the end of the conversation, it seems as if you were pushing towards ending the relationship. Do you think the conversation could have been perceived that way?

For a person who has abandonment fears, many times they expect you to eventually leave them. The reasoning behind the abandonment fears are different for everyone. Although, "conditional" love can be associated with abandonment. People who have actually been physically or emotionally abandoned by their caregivers can believe love is conditional.  As a result, love is associated on a conditional basis that can be taken away with abandonment or threats of abandonment.  It is highly likely your comment about not being compatible (albeit used to find out what she thought) triggered abandonment fears. Hidden intent tends not to fare well.  Why didn't you just directly ask her if she was interested in rekindling your relationship?

Don't be hard on yourself for being invalidating. Everyone has been or can be invalidating at times. Validating a person's feelings does not necessarily mean that you agree with the way they are feeling, but it lets  others know that you understand and are empathetic.  Learning about validation helps improve communication skills, which are good for all types of people including pwBPD.  Take a look at this link.

Communication Skills - Validation

I am not sure if she will reach out again, only she knows that. What is holding you back from reaching out to her?

[1minuteatatime]

Eagles-

She told me over text to never attempt to call or text again.  That is why I won't.  She did uncover my hidden intent of wanting to know.(I told her fairly quickly over text.   She asked if that was what I wanted to know.  I said yes.  then she wanted med to text my conditions.(because I had brought up conditions/rules the day before if she were to come back.  Stupid of me to assume she was coming back.  Honesty on the big things for both of us is my main one.  We both are dishonest with each other about things.  Me.  Feelings.  Not telling her when I was anxious.  All sorts of stuff.  Her.  Trying to protect her heart by telling me what I want to hear instead of the truth.  

I told her several times that I tend to get angry in November and December over the pain.  She knows everything about me.  All of the bad, hurt, pain stuff.  I don't know if she remembers or can connect the dots, though.  

I was trying to "end it" in my head or have her say that she wanted to try again.  You are correct.  I was agreeing with her previous assertion when she broke up 6 weeks ago to elicit nothing or a response.  She asked if I was intentionally wanting her to "blow up my phone".  That was not my intent.  I want her back.

 If I do reach out again, should I wait 4-6 months and start with an apology?  I know that my actions are invalidating, triggering and have been hurtful. I actually feel abandoned.  When she said "So we are nothing?" on 12.26, I knew I had a chance to get her to try again.  We are nothing as a couple... . That is the funny thing.  We have been since she left.  I have much work to do.

She told me the reason she asked for a meet up at my placed on 12.26 was to "give me closure".  I have never had someone break it off and then come back for my sake.  I call B.S. on that rationale.  I still thanked her for coming to give me "Closure".  Closure happens for me by not seeing them when I know it is over.  Like when my ex cheated on me in college.  I loved my college GF.  Always will.  But... .  I knew I would never go back once we broke up.  She didn't cheat(that I know of) and I will take her back unlike all of my other ex's I have had.  My cheater in college was also/is also a borderline.  I am certain of it.

One thing-  I do allow her space anytime.  I don't think I try to fix her but once I felt the dishonesty in September, I got really distant.  She knew it.  We both read each other very well on the negative vibes.

I have coffee dates on Wednesday and Friday.  Trying to just get out there.

[1minuteatatime]

livednlearned-

Thanks.  I know that know one knows.  My uncle that I tell everything to about this says she will be back in a few weeks.  My son thinks so, too(because of my BPD ex wife's behavior most likely)  



She has to know I want to try because I told her several times.  The question for her was:  Will I fight for her?  The answer on Saturday honestly was:  "No"

Because I had no idea what that even meant.  The answer now is Yes.  

I think she is talking about me validating her feelings however angry and hysterical she gets.  She told me one time:

Is this trip to Jamaica a "consolation prize"?  Go take trips by yourself.  I told her that I would, then.  Probably very invalidating.

Another time she just told me that she was embarrassed about having feelings for me that I may not reciprocate.  She didn't say she loved me, though.  Other times she would get angry wanting me to tell her where it was going and asked if I was stringing her along.  I just listened those times.  No responses except that I cared for her.

Honestly, it may be more that I have such a rough time on those days.  I even told my kids yesterday that I was having a tough day.  That it had nothing to do with them.  That it was me.  I was very impatient a few times with my 13 year old.  He heard me tell my uncle it was the anniversary and asked if that was it.  I told him probably.  he doesn't know it was suicide, yet.  Not mature enough for that.

[livednlearned]

Relationships tend to break down in stages, and knowing what stage you are at probably influences the odds that there will be another chance. What stage would you say your relationship with her is at?

[1minuteatatime]

We were acting really angry with one another over the weekend.  I actually saw that as a positive sign.  If we didn't care, we would be at stage 4.  I think we are at 3 and walls are building fast I hope we are in late 2 stage, though.  Telling me to never contact again feels like 3 given the anger.  Not the indifference of 4.  She told me that she feels I am indifferent in general.

[EaglesJuju]

Eagles-

She told me over text to never attempt to call or text again.  That is why I won't.  She did uncover my hidden intent of wanting to know.(I told her fairly quickly over text.   She asked if that was what I wanted to know.  I said yes.  then she wanted med to text my conditions.(because I had brought up conditions/rules the day before if she were to come back.  Stupid of me to assume she was coming back.  Honesty on the big things for both of us is my main one.  We both are dishonest with each other about things.  Me.  Feelings.  Not telling her when I was anxious.  All sorts of stuff.  Her.  Trying to protect her heart by telling me what I want to hear instead of the truth.  

It seems that she was considering the conditions. Did she have any conditions herself? From my own experience, "big" conversations like that take time. You mentioned that you don't share your feelings often. Do you feel afraid to tell her your feelings?

I understand that she told you to not text or call. When people are upset they can impulsively react with anger.  Has she said this to you before?

I told her several times that I tend to get angry in November and December over the pain.  She knows everything about me.  All of the bad, hurt, pain stuff.  I don't know if she remembers or can connect the dots, though.  

Sometimes people need to be reminded. It can be hard for another person to connect the dots or know what is exactly driving their emotions and behavior.  For example, this holiday season has been difficult for me (I had a couple of huge losses this year). I had to remind my boyfriend quite a few times why I was more upset than usual.  He assumed that I was upset because of him or something he did.

I was trying to "end it" in my head or have her say that she wanted to try again.  You are correct.  I was agreeing with her previous assertion when she broke up 6 weeks ago to elicit nothing or a response.  She asked if I was intentionally wanting her to "blow up my phone".  That was not my intent.  I want her back.

Communication can be really tough. It seems like both of your are afraid to share things. Being direct and communicating your needs, wants, and intentions alleviate mindreading or jumping to conclusions, which is very common for pwBPD.  :)o you think that this is a problem with your relationship?

 If I do reach out again, should I wait 4-6 months and start with an apology?  I know that my actions are invalidating, triggering and have been hurtful. I actually feel abandoned.  When she said "So we are nothing?" on 12.26, I knew I had a chance to get her to try again.  We are nothing as a couple... . That is the funny thing.  We have been since she left.  I have much work to do.

Don't beat yourself up.     We are all human and not perfect.  I think when should reach out is dependent on you. When things like this has happened in my relationship, I gave it couple of days to cool down. Do you want to apologize to her?

She told me the reason she asked for a meet up at my placed on 12.26 was to "give me closure".  I have never had someone break it off and then come back for my sake.  I call B.S. on that rationale.  I still thanked her for coming to give me "Closure".  Closure happens for me by not seeing them when I know it is over.  Like when my ex cheated on me in college.  I loved my college GF.  Always will.  But... .  I knew I would never go back once we broke up.  She didn't cheat(that I know of) and I will take her back unlike all of my other ex's I have had.  My cheater in college was also/is also a borderline.  I am certain of it.

You are thinking of "normal" rationale. Don't forget pwBPD do not think "normally" all the time. It is reasonable for a pwBPD to break it off and come back.  Also, closure has different meanings for everyone.

[1minuteatatime]

Eagles-

I'm confused.  When someone tells me not to contact them, I stop.  Why would I reach out after only a few days?  Couldn't she just file a restraining order or something like that?  I do want to apologize for the part I played in this, my emotions during the past week(since 12-22 it's been tough) but I think that I may need to let her "be".  I am so intense that at times, it overwhelms others. 

My strengths are:  Bold.  Rational/practical.  Original.  Perceptive.  Direct.  Sociable.

Weaknesses: insensitive.  impatient.  Unstructured.  May miss big picture.  defiant.

After she broke up the first time, she had peak anger at about 2 weeks.  I am thinking three weeks from last Sunday might be right. I didn't tell her not to reach out to me.  She has come back and said she regretted saying things to me many times.  I think if I validated more/listened more, she would not be as triggered.  If she is better off without me, I would rather leave it be but she seemed miserable when I met her and is miserable, now.  Alone.  Etc.  I don't think me being there makes it worse, frankly. 

Is it possible that she is trying to protect me from her emotional outbursts?  I can handle them if I learn more.  Hell.  I am an expert on understanding that there can be more to emotions than who is in front of me.   That is what it feels like and why she wanted to be friends.  She may have tried to protect me by dumping me.(and protect herself from me dumping her)

I am more than happy to wait if there is a better reconciliation chance if I do.  I will not stop my life for her but I think that my understanding is deep enough to start making a dent.   I know she is in therapy and works on some of this stuff.  That is why I think if I start really working, we may have a chance.

I reached out to a therapist yesterday for the first time since grief stuff back in 2002-2004.  I know most of my issues revolve around grief.  I don't attach well except close family.  I feel good when they are here(my two boys are here now) but very lonely when they aren't.  I don't care about friends very much, either.  I have actually told my friends that I don't really have friends.  I consider them acquaintances.  I'm not even that close to my mom.  She is likely borderline.  I don't put up with poor behavior from her and when she stirs stuff up, I call her on the phone and tell her to knock it off.  She then knocks it off and pretends like she didn't do the behavior.

[EaglesJuju]

I'm confused.  When someone tells me not to contact them, I stop.  Why would I reach out after only a few days?  Couldn't she just file a restraining order or something like that?  I do want to apologize for the part I played in this, my emotions during the past week(since 12-22 it's been tough) but I think that I may need to let her "be".  I am so intense that at times, it overwhelms others. 

It's up to you to decide what is best for you whenever that time frame may be or whether you want to do it or not. I was inquiring whether she said something like this before. I have heard similar things like that from my boyfriend and later he told me I should have reached out to him. If this was something that she said before, you could get a better understanding of where she was  at. 

Emotional intensity can be kryptonite for a person who has a hard time controlling or regulating emotions. Space and letting her "be" may be a good idea. 

My strengths are:  Bold.  Rational/practical.  Original.  Perceptive.  Direct.  Sociable.

Weaknesses: insensitive.  impatient.  Unstructured.  May miss big picture.  defiant.

Have you ever explored what you consider,  weaknesses?

After she broke up the first time, she had peak anger at about 2 weeks.  I am thinking three weeks from last Sunday might be right. I didn't tell her not to reach out to me.  She has come back and said she regretted saying things to me many times.  I think if I validated more/listened more, she would not be as triggered.  If she is better off without me, I would rather leave it be but she seemed miserable when I met her and is miserable, now.  Alone.  Etc.  I don't think me being there makes it worse, frankly. 

Validation does help assuage dysregulation.  Do you think that you can help her?

Is it possible that she is trying to protect me from her emotional outbursts?  I can handle them if I learn more.  Hell.  I am an expert on understanding that there can be more to emotions than who is in front of me.   That is what it feels like and why she wanted to be friends.  She may have tried to protect me by dumping me.(and protect herself from me dumping her)

That could be the case or there could be other reasons. Sometimes I think we delve too deeply into hidden meanings and miss what our partner is telling us. Abandonment seems to be a huge concern for her as you mentioned in your first post. Do you think that is something that she has a problem with?

I am more than happy to wait if there is a better reconciliation chance if I do.  I will not stop my life for her but I think that my understanding is deep enough to start making a dent.   I know she is in therapy and works on some of this stuff.  That is why I think if I start really working, we may have a chance.

I think you have the right idea. Things started improving in my relationship when I started to work on myself.  Honestly it was a win-win situation when I started going to therapy. 

I reached out to a therapist yesterday for the first time since grief stuff back in 2002-2004.  I know most of my issues revolve around grief.  I don't attach well except close family.  I feel good when they are here(my two boys are here now) but very lonely when they aren't.  I don't care about friends very much, either.  I have actually told my friends that I don't really have friends.  I consider them acquaintances.  I'm not even that close to my mom.  She is likely borderline.  I don't put up with poor behavior from her and when she stirs stuff up, I call her on the phone and tell her to knock it off.  She then knocks it off and pretends like she didn't do the behavior.

Therapy is a good option for exploring your relationship with your mom. Also grief is very powerful.  A therapist can help you work through the death of your father. 

[1minuteatatime]

I'm confused.  When someone tells me not to contact them, I stop.  Why would I reach out after only a few days?  Couldn't she just file a restraining order or something like that?  I do want to apologize for the part I played in this, my emotions during the past week(since 12-22 it's been tough) but I think that I may need to let her "be".  I am so intense that at times, it overwhelms others.  

It's up to you to decide what is best for you whenever that time frame may be or whether you want to do it or not. I was inquiring whether she said something like this before. I have heard similar things like that from my boyfriend and later he told me I should have reached out to him. If this was something that she said before, you could get a better understanding of where she was  at.



She told me in the past that she wanted me to reach out.  I have been very receptive to her at most any time.  I feel that giving her space is important due to that intensity.

Emotional intensity can be kryptonite for a person who has a hard time controlling or regulating emotions. Space and letting her "be" may be a good idea.  

I need to take time outs like she says that she needs to.  I am not all that great at this stuff, either.

My strengths are:  Bold.  Rational/practical.  Original.  Perceptive.  :)irect.  Sociable.

Weaknesses: insensitive.  impatient.  Unstructured.  May miss big picture.  defiant.

Have you ever explored what you consider,  weaknesses? Yes.  Insensitivity I talked to her about.  Stubbornness.  yes.  We both are.  Unstructured.  Nah.  no exploring except I don't like the rules.  I am an ESTP on myers briggs.  not sure if that is a bad pairing.

After she broke up the first time, she had peak anger at about 2 weeks.  I am thinking three weeks from last Sunday might be right. I didn't tell her not to reach out to me.  She has come back and said she regretted saying things to me many times.  I think if I validated more/listened more, she would not be as triggered.  If she is better off without me, I would rather leave it be but she seemed miserable when I met her and is miserable, now.  Alone.  Etc.  I don't think me being there makes it worse, frankly.  

Validation does help assuage dysregulation.  :)o you think that you can help her?  

I think I need to work on validation for myself and relationships in general.  I can sense/feel the dis-satisfaction, I just move past it.  If I help myself, it may also help the relationship(if we get back into one)  :)id you ever reach out to him during a breakup?  if so, when?  :)id he break it off with you, too?

Is it possible that she is trying to protect me from her emotional outbursts?  I can handle them if I learn more.  Hell.  I am an expert on understanding that there can be more to emotions than who is in front of me.   That is what it feels like and why she wanted to be friends.  She may have tried to protect me by dumping me.(and protect herself from me dumping her)

That could be the case or there could be other reasons. Sometimes I think we delve too deeply into hidden meanings and miss what our partner is telling us. Abandonment seems to be a huge concern for her as you mentioned in your first post. Do you think that is something that she has a problem with?  



yes.  She told me her biggest fear is abandonment.  That I will leave her.  She said that one ex left her "like a piece of trash"  :)o you have a suggestion on what I can say to assuage those fears if/when we ever talk again?  When I sent the stupid text saying she was right, we were not compatible, I didn't mean it.  I wanted to know where she was at psychologically.  Looking back, that is super manipulative.  when she asked if that is what I was doing and admitted it was, she was probably really pissed.  I want her.  I really want her.  I don't need her, though.  I fear that she wants me to tell her I need her.(I told her that once)  I enjoy spening time with her.  even the bad times are fine.  I think she understands on some level that I can friggin handle anything.  She just doesn't know if I will put up with some of her stuff.  She hasn't said that out loud.  I started getting more isolated with her.  It felt similar to my ex-wife and I.   I show care by doing things.  Like I added her on to my term life insurance in September/october.  I didn't tell her that but I knew that I cared for her very deeply when I took the time to change it to her.

I am more than happy to wait if there is a better reconciliation chance if I do.  I will not stop my life for her but I think that my understanding is deep enough to start making a dent.   I know she is in therapy and works on some of this stuff.  That is why I think if I start really working, we may have a chance.

I think you have the right idea. Things started improving in my relationship when I started to work on myself.  Honestly it was a win-win situation when I started going to therapy.    What parts of working on yourself was best for you?

I reached out to a therapist yesterday for the first time since grief stuff back in 2002-2004.  I know most of my issues revolve around grief.  I don't attach well except close family.  I feel good when they are here(my two boys are here now) but very lonely when they aren't.  I don't care about friends very much, either.  I have actually told my friends that I don't really have friends.  I consider them acquaintances.  I'm not even that close to my mom.  She is likely borderline.  I don't put up with poor behavior from her and when she stirs stuff up, I call her on the phone and tell her to knock it off.  She then knocks it off and pretends like she didn't do the behavior.

Therapy is a good option for exploring your relationship with your mom. Also grief is very powerful.  A therapist can help you work through the death of your father.    I forgave my mom for telling pop to hurry up and die after her first tried to commit.  She denied ever saying it but I told her since I was there, I know what was said.  She can't re-write that.  I feel ok about my pop.  Not great.  This year I only had about 10 bad days.  Usually, it's 50-60.  I think being divorced helped with that this year(I never felt my ex cared about what happened and felt alone with her)

Did your boyfriend ever break it off with you?  If so, did you reach out to him first, ever?  She reached out to me.  I have read that whoever breaks up needs to reach out.  It works better that way, normally.  If he reached out to you, how did you handle it?  Mine went really poorly.  I think it was because it was the worst week of the year.  It she waited until after the first, I am normally better.

Is it possible that she knew somehow about my inner strength and that is what attracted her to me in the first place?  That I can handle myself with her?  I know if she comes back, I will be ready.  Ready to fight.  Not with her.  For her.  She will need to decide if she is willing to fight for me, too.  When she told me stuff like "I would go anywhere with you" I pawned it off because we all say silly stuff.  but when she said "I can't get enough of you" that is what I want back.  My ex-wife and I would make promises and rarely keep them.  That is where I want to be much better in the future.

[1minuteatatime]

Eagles-

She told me over text to never attempt to call or text again.  That is why I won't.  She did uncover my hidden intent of wanting to know.(I told her fairly quickly over text.   She asked if that was what I wanted to know.  I said yes.  then she wanted me to text my conditions.(because I had brought up conditions/rules the day before if she were to come back.  Stupid of me to assume she was coming back.  Honesty on the big things for both of us is my main one.  We both are dishonest with each other about things.  Me.  Feelings.  Not telling her when I was anxious.  All sorts of stuff.  Her.  Trying to protect her heart by telling me what I want to hear instead of the truth.  

It seems that she was considering the conditions. Did she have any conditions herself? From my own experience, "big" conversations like that take time. You mentioned that you don't share your feelings often. Do you feel afraid to tell her your feelings?

She had conditions when she broke up with me.  She said that my ex causes too much drama(my ex sends all sorts of texts but I don't care about her so it doesn't affect me.)  She asked to know about anything closely related to her and wants to know in general about my ex's texts.  So I shared.  This caused problems because she knows my ex won't stop.  What do I care?  It doesn't affect me.  She said that she needed an all consuming love.  That I needed to put her above everything else.(I didn't ask her what that means but I can't do that if it is literal at all times)  That I couldn't give her what she needed.  She is correct if an "all consuming love" means that I drop anything, anytime for her.  I am there for her but I must take care of myself.  I sent an email that I drafted but was afraid to send prior to the breakup saying that I am there for her but I must take care of myself, first.(sent 10 minutes after the breakup since I had drafted it.  It was very long and showed only care and concern.  I thought it out well in advance.  One funny break up thing-  She told me that she hated Mexican food.  She's Mexican and told me all the time that she was eating mexican food prepared by her mom.  She told me she loved Mexican food.  Could that mean she has a replacement?  She told me that I basically needed to make her my everything.    I had been afraid to tell her my feelings.  She said over the weekend that I need to be "vulnerable".  I don't like to be vulnerable.  I am too vulnerable with having my kids.  If something happens to them.    I want to be vulnerable but logic takes over since she is separated and bitter.  I was separated and bitter.  Nothing works when you are bitter.  Nothing.  I am divorced and feel nothing for my ex.  I want the best for my ex-wife.  I want the best for her.  But I have no care for ex-wife other than she needs to be around for my boys.  She got pregnant with another guys baby while married and I played into that dynamic by not being there for my ex-wife.  But... . Bottom line.  I am moving forward.  

Fear?  I fear if I tell the ex-gf that I love her and would possibly consider marrying her after a long engagement, I will lose her.  My emotions were very volatile when going through divorce.  If she has BPD traits and then you throw divorce in the mix, I can't imagine how she feels.  I didn't know that she was still going through it because she told me the divorce was over.  At least her mom comes and takes care of her kids the weeks that she has her kids.

I understand that she told you to not text or call. When people are upset they can impulsively react with anger.  Has she said this to you before?  She impulsively told me not to pick her up at the airport when we fought on the phone last summer.  The fight was over her bitterness and I said that if she loved him(the estranged husband) it was ok to explore going back.  I said it out of care, not to abandon.  I was hurt by that.  She told me not to show up at her place when she would get angry with me over small stuff at times.  The weekend of the breakup, she did that on Thursday over an ex wife text coupled with her being angry at me not dropping everything the Friday before(Told me not to show up Thursday thru Sunday).  On Friday(the next night) she texted me and asked if we could talk.  I said in a one word text "No".(I was not happy and knew things were not going well)  The next morning, she broke it off.  I know now that I should have said:  I am not ready to talk right now, can we get together Sunday?  She also said that if I texted or called, she would not respond. Not sure if that means she will at least read them.

I told her several times that I tend to get angry in November and December over the pain.  She knows everything about me.  All of the bad, hurt, pain stuff.  I don't know if she remembers or can connect the dots, though.  

Sometimes people need to be reminded. It can be hard for another person to connect the dots or know what is exactly driving their emotions and behavior.  For example, this holiday season has been difficult for me (I had a couple of huge losses this year). I had to remind my boyfriend quite a few times why I was more upset than usual.  He assumed that I was upset because of him or something he did.

I hadn't reminded her because the "bad season" was just starting when she broke it off.   When she came back, it was my worst week(by far)  I didn't think to say anything.  

I was trying to "end it" in my head or have her say that she wanted to try again.  You are correct.  I was agreeing with her previous assertion when she broke up 6 weeks ago to elicit nothing or a response.  She asked if I was intentionally wanting her to "blow up my phone".  That was not my intent.  I want her back.

Communication can be really tough. It seems like both of your are afraid to share things. Being direct and communicating your needs, wants, and intentions alleviate mindreading or jumping to conclusions, which is very common for pwBPD.  :)o you think that this is a problem with your relationship? Yes.  I told her early on that I didn't feel we were communicating well.  She said her estranged husband used to say that.  She didn't like it at all.

 If I do reach out again, should I wait 4-6 months and start with an apology?  I know that my actions are invalidating, triggering and have been hurtful. I actually feel abandoned.  When she said "So we are nothing?" on 12.26, I knew I had a chance to get her to try again.  We are nothing as a couple... . That is the funny thing.  We have been since she left.  I have much work to do.

Don't beat yourself up.     We are all human and not perfect.  I think when should reach out is dependent on you. When things like this has happened in my relationship, I gave it couple of days to cool down. Do you want to apologize to her?  Yes.  She deserves an apology.  Has he told you never to contact him again?  That he won't respond?  This is the first time she phrased it like this.  She deserves to have someone listen to how she feels.  I don't think anyone actually does that now that I think about her life.  I sometimes think it is silly the things she gets very angry about(a broken cup, a mess, her brother using the laundry machine, her estranged husband getting a Mustang).  But.  Everyone deserves to be heard if it is important.  I can listen and if she asks what I think, I can tell her what I feel about small complaints, right? She has legit ones, too.  She hasn't lost an immediate family member, yet.  When she breaks it off with her friends, she doesn't generally go back.  She cuts them off, completely.  She did that while I was with her. Maybe that means she is done with me.  We had so many cool things that we did together, it's tough to think in those terms.  But.  Such is life.  A couple of very cool jazz concerts.  2 country concerts.  Jamaica.  I taught her to ride a bike.  Bike rides.  Dollar movie theater.  Trips to Dallas and Austin.  Fun times.

She told me the reason she asked for a meet up at my placed on 12.26 was to "give me closure".  I have never had someone break it off and then come back for my sake.  I call B.S. on that rationale.  I still thanked her for coming to give me "Closure".  Closure happens for me by not seeing them when I know it is over.  Like when my ex cheated on me in college.  I loved my college GF.  Always will.  But... . I knew I would never go back once we broke up.  She didn't cheat(that I know of) and I will take her back unlike all of my other ex's I have had.  My cheater in college was also/is also a borderline.  I am certain of it.

You are thinking of "normal" rationale. Don't forget pwBPD do not think "normally" all the time. It is reasonable for a pwBPD to break it off and come back.  Also, closure has different meanings for everyone.   Ok.  I wouldn't go to an ex's unless I wanted back.  So.  Is it possible that she doesn't want back at all?  Is anger an indication of feelings or am I just wrong?

[EaglesJuju]

I think I need to work on validation for myself and relationships in general.  I can sense/feel the dis-satisfaction, I just move past it.  If I help myself, it may also help the relationship(if we get back into one) 

Validation or not being invalidating helps all relationships. Helping or working on yourself does help improve a relationship. 

Did you ever reach out to him during a breakup?  if so, when?  Did he break it off with you, too?

I have a convoluted story  . He wanted to have a couple of "breaks" for various reasons. I did reach out during our breaks after two weeks or so. After he broke up with me, he reached out within three months. He told me regretted telling me to move on and he wanted to take it back, but was embarrassed, ashamed, and scared to call me.

Yes.  I told her early on that I didn't feel we were communicating well.  She said her estranged husband used to say that.  She didn't like it at all.

That may be a trigger for her.  Communication is important, especially for people who tend to have distorted thinking where  jumping to conclusions is common and using emotional reasoning.

This link gives a nice background on communication techniques. I have used them countless times with my boyfriend and they have helped divert what would have potentially been a heated argument. 

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

Has he told you never to contact him again?  That he won't respond?

He said something similar. His behavior was pretty hurtful too.

Yes.  She deserves an apology.   This is the first time she phrased it like this.  She deserves to have someone listen to how she feels.  I don't think anyone actually does that now that I think about her life.  I sometimes think it is silly the things she gets very angry about(a broken cup, a mess, her brother using the laundry machine, her estranged husband getting a Mustang).  But.  Everyone deserves to be heard if it is important.  I can listen and if she asks what I think, I can tell her what I feel about small complaints, right? She has legit ones, too.  She hasn't lost an immediate family member, yet. 

I think everyone deserves someone to listen to them. When you feel like no one understands how you are feeling, it can result in poor self-esteem, shame, low self-worth, and depression.

I understand how frustrating it is to cope with someone getting angry over silly things. The silly thing is usually not what makes someone angry. A broken cup, mess, etc. tends to evoke already present feelings of anger or could make someone feel shamed, not good enough etc.  What may be silly to some people, maybe important to another person. PwBPD tend to have a very hard time expressing or describing  and regulating their feelings/emotions and can be hypersensitive. Therefore, a broken cup can cause a huge reaction.

When we don't listen to someone or tell them that they shouldn't be upset over something that is perhaps miniscule, we invalidate their feelings. Empathy goes hand in hand with validation. Even if we do not agree with someone, we can still be empathetic to how they are feeling and why they could feel a certain way.

Ok.  I wouldn't go to an ex's unless I wanted back.  So.  Is it possible that she doesn't want back at all?  Is anger an indication of feelings or am I just wrong?

In my opinion, it seems that she was genuinely interested. You don't wait for people at their apartment or have two hour texting conversations if you don't want to be in someone's life.  I do not think there is a hidden meaning to her anger. She is most likely really upset from the last conversation, which is understandable.

She had conditions when she broke up with me.  She said that my ex causes too much drama(my ex sends all sorts of texts but I don't care about her so it doesn't affect me.)  She asked to know about anything closely related to her and wants to know in general about my ex's texts.  So I shared.  This caused problems because she knows my ex won't stop.  What do I care?  It doesn't affect me.  She said that she needed an all consuming love.  That I needed to put her above everything else.(I didn't ask her what that means but I can't do that if it is literal at all times)  That I couldn't give her what she needed.  She is correct if an "all consuming love" means that I drop anything, anytime for her.  I am there for her but I must take care of myself.  I sent an email that I drafted but was afraid to send prior to the breakup saying that I am there for her but I must take care of myself, first.(sent 10 minutes after the breakup since I had drafted it.  It was very long and showed only care and concern.  I thought it out well in advance.  One funny break up thing-  She told me that she hated Mexican food.  She's Mexican and told me all the time that she was eating mexican food prepared by her mom.  She told me she loved Mexican food.  Could that mean she has a replacement?  She told me that I basically needed to make her my everything.    I had been afraid to tell her my feelings.  She said over the weekend that I need to be "vulnerable".  I don't like to be vulnerable.  I am too vulnerable with having my kids.  If something happens to them.    I want to be vulnerable but logic takes over since she is separated and bitter.  I was separated and bitter.  Nothing works when you are bitter.  Nothing.  I am divorced and feel nothing for my ex.  I want the best for my ex-wife.  I want the best for her.  But I have no care for ex-wife other than she needs to be around for my boys.  She got pregnant with another guys baby while married and I played into that dynamic by not being there for my ex-wife.  But... .  Bottom line.  I am moving forward.

She is most likely very jealous of your ex and she was communicating that by mentioning how much drama she causes. Do you see how she could maybe be affected by your ex's texts?

I agree with you, all consuming is not healthy nor is dropping everything for someone all the time. 

I do not know if she has a replacement. Although I wouldn't interpret a new dislike for a certain food as her having a replacement. It could be that she is tired of eating Mexican food. 

Maybe her asking you to be vulnerable is her way of wanting you to be more open with your feelings?

Fear?  I fear if I tell the ex-gf that I love her and would possibly consider marrying her after a long engagement, I will lose her.  My emotions were very volatile when going through divorce. 

Do you think that you would lose her because she would feel engulfed?

  The fight was over her bitterness and I said that if she loved him(the estranged husband) it was ok to explore going back. I said it out of care, not to abandon.  I was hurt by that. 

Were you really okay with her exploring that option with her estranged husband?

yes.  She told me her biggest fear is abandonment.  That I will leave her.  She said that one ex left her "like a piece of trash"  Do you have a suggestion on what I can say to assuage those fears if/when we ever talk again?  When I sent the stupid text saying she was right, we were not compatible, I didn't mean it.  I wanted to know where she was at psychologically.  Looking back, that is super manipulative.  when she asked if that is what I was doing and admitted it was, she was probably really pissed.  I want her.  I really want her.  I don't need her, though.  I fear that she wants me to tell her I need her.(I told her that once)  I enjoy spening time with her.  even the bad times are fine.  I think she understands on some level that I can friggin handle anything.  She just doesn't know if I will put up with some of her stuff.  She hasn't said that out loud.  I started getting more isolated with her.  It felt similar to my ex-wife and I.   I show care by doing things.  Like I added her on to my term life insurance in September/october.  I didn't tell her that but I knew that I cared for her very deeply when I took the time to change it to her.

Abandonment fears are tough and I have them myself. The panic, anxiety, and fear can be overwhelming.  They are different for everyone.  When I have been abandoned in the past, I felt like it was my fault or I was not good enough. Reassurance helps me while I am working through my issues.

Needs and wants are two separate things. I think you have the right idea about wanting her in your life, not needing her.

Everyone has a different way of showing love. The 5 Love Languages gives a good understanding of the different ways people express love, such as words of affirmation, acts of service, spending quality time, receiving gifts, and physical touch.  What do you think her love language is?

What parts of working on yourself was best for you?

Learning not to be affected by other people's behavior and blame myself for it. Also, I have been working on learning how to say no and instilling boundaries. 

[1minuteatatime]

Validation or not being invalidating helps all relationships. Helping or working on yourself does help improve a relationship.  

I just got the book:  "High conflict couple".  I had a great day.  A guy at worked asked about my divorce and dating and stuff like that.  We got into a deep co-dependency convo.  Not good to talk about at work but I don't care.  This guy is high conflict/anxiety and I relate to him.  In the long run, I work to minimize conflict with co-workers/clients but I don't try to eliminate conflict.  Some conflict is needed to move forward when goals need to be accomplished(IMO)

Did you ever reach out to him during a breakup?  if so, when?  :)id he break it off with you, too?

I have a convoluted story  . He wanted to have a couple of "breaks" for various reasons. I did reach out during our breaks after two weeks or so. After he broke up with me, he reached out within three months. He told me regretted telling me to move on and he wanted to take it back, but was embarrassed, ashamed, and scared to call me.

This is why I am waiting for her to contact me.  I have deep feelings for her.  I am ok waiting.  I just keep trying to get assurances from friends and family that she will.  I spoke to a former partner today(we had a well defined sex only relationship, yes she is likely borderline... .sexually abused as a child)  She interrupted me three times to tell me that she will contact me.  She said that I have lots of little quirks and any partner is just going to have to know that. (Like I insist on STD testing) She was surprised that she was with me for almost 10 months.  I think my ex-gf actually was scared to come over on xmas.  Thinking back, I think it might have been good that I tried to get in her pants(maybe not so quickly) because at least she knows I am interested on some level. She knows I am very cerebral sexually.  Thanks for sharing.

Yes.  I told her early on that I didn't feel we were communicating well.  She said her estranged husband used to say that.  She didn't like it at all.

That may be a trigger for her.  Communication is important, especially for people who tend to have distorted thinking where  jumping to conclusions is common and using emotional reasoning.

This link gives a nice background on communication techniques. I have used them countless times with my boyfriend and they have helped divert what would have potentially been a heated argument.  

Our communication sucks.  I am going to tear through that high conflict couple book tomorrow.

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

Has he told you never to contact him again?  That he won't respond?

He said something similar. His behavior was pretty hurtful too.

I think everyone deserves someone to listen to them. When you feel like no one understands how you are feeling, it can result in poor self-esteem, shame, low self-worth, and depression.

I understand how frustrating it is to cope with someone getting angry over silly things. The silly thing is usually not what makes someone angry. A broken cup, mess, etc. tends to evoke already present feelings of anger or could make someone feel shamed, not good enough etc.  What may be silly to some people, maybe important to another person. PwBPD tend to have a very hard time expressing or describing  and regulating their feelings/emotions and can be hypersensitive. Therefore, a broken cup can cause a huge reaction.

When we don't listen to someone or tell them that they shouldn't be upset over something that is perhaps miniscule, we invalidate their feelings. Empathy goes hand in hand with validation. Even if we do not agree with someone, we can still be empathetic to how they are feeling and why they could feel a certain way.

Thank you for sharing that he was very hurtful.  I was dejected and very hurt on Sunday when she cut me off like that.  It might partially be a reaction to my 30 days of NC right after she broke up with me.  She seems to want to try to "punish me".  I cut contact for my emotional health.  I am not sure if she knows that.  I told her right away as she broke up.  No hiding that I was doing the NC.  I needed it/  It helped me.  I looked back on my phone logs.  I was incessantly checking my phone from 11-15 thru 12-11, then I suddenly stopped checking.  It took me about 3 1/2 weeks to get my head on straight.  I think I detach quicker than most due to the suicides and other BS from prior issues.  My ego was hurt for sure, too.  She may be cutting me off to protect herself, too.  Not to punish... .

Ok.  I wouldn't go to an ex's unless I wanted back.  So.  Is it possible that she doesn't want back at all?  Is anger an indication of feelings or am I just wrong?

In my opinion, it seems that she was genuinely interested. You don't wait for people at their apartment or have two hour texting conversations if you don't want to be in someone's life.  I do not think there is a hidden meaning to her anger. She is most likely really upset from the last conversation, which is understandable.

Yes.  She waited on xmas.(xmas is a dramatic day, right?  In my family, it is with my sisters... .)  Then walked to my apt.(didn't need to I could easily have carried the little bag) then texted me 20 minutes after taking off.  Then asked if she could come the next day.  Came the next day.  Cried at my place twice.  Told me that the argument/conversation was "circular" (due to my not validating) and left frustrated.  The next day was the texting for 1 1/2 and call/my hang up with her saying something at the tail end.  Then the cut off all ties.[/quote]
She is most likely very jealous of your ex and she was communicating that by mentioning how much drama she causes. Do you see how she could maybe be affected by your ex's texts?

Yes.  She told me that she was very jealous of my ex.  Ex-GF questioned me several times if I would get back with my ex-wife if we broke up.  The fact is, I NEVER will.  Right after we broke up, my ex-wife started trying to pull me back.  I rebuffed every attempt. I would rather be alone than spend one minute with my ex-wife.  At the "breakup" conversation, she asked if my Ex would ever stop.  I told her that I can't control that but I don't expect my ex to stop.  I am re-directing my ex to email vs text so I can save all of the stupid abusive quips to share in court to get some of the stuff to stop.  I also started just deleting all of the texts(my ex wife will send 20-30 texts in a row) instead of reading them.  I tell her to email me.  And only about the kids.  I have to own some of the "management" on this one.  I was too passive/co-dependent.

I agree with you, all consuming is not healthy nor is dropping everything for someone all the time.

I will drop things if it won't hurt me.  If we get back together, I may just let the phone go to VM if I have plans and call her back when I am free.   Perspective, here?  Normally I would always take her calls after work or on weekends.

I do not know if she has a replacement. Although I wouldn't interpret a new dislike for a certain food as her having a replacement. It could be that she is tired of eating Mexican food.  

Probably just my insecurity.  She is free to date whoever.  If she decided to get someone before breaking it off, not cool.  But I don't control it, either.

Maybe her asking you to be vulnerable is her way of wanting you to be more open with your feelings?

I agree.  She probably needs that from me.  Even the one that I agreed to just have a sex relationship with told me that I have walls up.  :)on't trust much, etc... . Maybe due to my ex-wife cheating.[/quote]
Do you think that you would lose her because she would feel engulfed?

Yes.  I think that is what lead to the break up in November.  She was getting too deep of feelings and I think it scared the bejesus out of her.  Funny.  Men are this way, too.  We temporarily pull back when we share feelings.  I did it once with her.  She did not like it at all.  I will never forget the time that we were driving(I was driving her car) and I was singing to her and I look over and she is crying.  It's crazy, but I felt that she was crying about the "inevitable" breakup.  I will never forget that.  She told me something strange and I felt like she was telling me through her body language that she "would never forget me".  Have you ever had moments like that?  She cried the first time we had sex.  I didn't feel deeply about it.  Said it was "the best sex ever".  I told her that we/I had much room for "improvement"

Just curious if you had any similar experience.  Have you?  Weird stuff that I hadn't experienced before.  Even with my clearly(IMO) BPD-ex wife.

 The fight was over her bitterness and I said that if she loved him(the estranged husband) it was ok to explore going back. I said it out of care, not to abandon.  I was hurt by that.  

Were you really okay with her exploring that option with her estranged husband?

I was.  I know that sounds crazy to most.  I truly believe that my individual(and hers) happiness should come first.  Then the "relationship".  If that is ultimately what happens, I would've been sad but I don't hold on like others.  Like my best friend in college that I loved.  When she cheated, I knew I had to let her go.  It hurt. But I knew she would cheat again.  I wasn't enough.  She needed me to move fast.  I wasn't ready because I wanted to protect her.  Probably some co-dependent BS... .

Is being ok with her breaking it off and exploring that unhealthy in your opinion?  I felt great about it.  I thought/think it was healthy.  It really pissed her off, though.[/quote]
Abandonment fears are tough and I have them myself. The panic, anxiety, and fear can be overwhelming.  They are different for everyone.  When I have been abandoned in the past, I felt like it was my fault or I was not good enough. Reassurance helps me while I am working through my issues.

I also have abandonment fears.  Is that a co-dependency thing?  I used to tell my ex-wife that she would leave me one day.  It happened much more after my dad's suicide.  I still feel like he abandoned me.

Needs and wants are two separate things. I think you have the right idea about wanting her in your life, not needing her.

I will hurt and have emotional withdrawals/pangs for sure.  I know that I will be ok, though.

Everyone has a different way of showing love. The 5 Love Languages gives a good understanding of the different ways people express love, such as words of affirmation, acts of service, spending quality time, receiving gifts, and physical touch. What do you think her love language is?

Not sure.  She gave gifts early on.[/quote]
Learning not to be affected by other people's behavior and blame myself for it. Also, I have been working on learning how to say no and instilling boundaries.  



I said "no" earlier in the relationship to things I didn't want to do and had ok boundaries. She respected them, too.  I let some of those boundaries down(not seeing friends much, taking most every call from her, calling her immediately if I was off work and she said "call me" even if I was doing "my thing" She would tell me the things she did not like about my friends, that they would "judge her" that she didn't feel comfortable around them, etc... . I told her once that we should both see our friends separately at times and she got pretty upset by that comment.  I felt like she meant that I didn't want to see her as much.

You don't know how much I appreciate just sharing and hearing your perspective, eagle.  Any things that you can relate are appreciated.  

I randomly met a girl at the bar tonight.  We were both standing (the bar was packed) and the waitress asked if we wanted a table close to where we were.  I said "you want to share one with me?"  She told me she was just getting takeout and would leave.  2 hours later she left.  31 yrs old, gorgeous.  Separated.  Had a boyfriend.  Cheated on her husband.  It was mostly his fault, though!(of course we both know it takes two to tango)  I obviously attract separated women that have BPD traits.  I don't fall fast, though.  That is my saving grace.  (or my downfall)  I didn't ask for her number.  (the waitress asked and was curious if I asked for her number)  Then the waitress asked me if I would have another beer if she bought one for me. Then the waitress said she would see me next Wednesday if she worked.  Told me she was "cool" with sex only relationships.(since I told her about my convo with my friend.)   Ridiculous .  It is nice to get attention from attractive women when you are having a few tough days.[/quote]

[EaglesJuju]

 I looked back on my phone logs.  I was incessantly checking my phone from 11-15 thru 12-11, then I suddenly stopped checking.  It took me about 3 1/2 weeks to get my head on straight.  I think I detach quicker than most due to the suicides and other BS from prior issues.  My ego was hurt for sure, too.  She may be cutting me off to protect herself, too.  Not to punish... .

Why were you checking your phone?

I will drop things if it won't hurt me.  If we get back together, I may just let the phone go to VM if I have plans and call her back when I am free.   Perspective, here?  Normally I would always take her calls after work or on weekends.

If that happens in the future, why not tell her you are busy and will get back to her later?

I think that is what lead to the break up in November.  She was getting too deep of feelings and I think it scared the bejesus out of her.  Funny.  Men are this way, too.  We temporarily pull back when we share feelings.  I did it once with her.  She did not like it at all.

I think it can be misleading when there are generalizations of Mars and Venus behavior.  Fears of engulfment can affect both men and women. There are even instances when feeling of engulfment are a healthy reaction to enmeshment.

 

I will never forget the time that we were driving(I was driving her car) and I was singing to her and I look over and she is crying.  It's crazy, but I felt that she was crying about the "inevitable" breakup.  I will never forget that.  She told me something strange and I felt like she was telling me through her body language that she "would never forget me".  Have you ever had moments like that?  

It is possible that something triggered her. Perhaps the song you were singing? 

Are you asking if I ever personally felt like I would never forget someone or if my pwBPD behaved in that way?

She cried the first time we had sex.  I didn't feel deeply about it.  Said it was "the best sex ever".  I told her that we/I had much room for "improvement"

It is apparent that it meant a lot to her.  Do you see how your comment was invalidating her feelings?

Just curious if you had any similar experience.  Have you?  Weird stuff that I hadn't experienced before.  Even with my clearly(IMO) BPD-ex wife.

I have had experience with emotionality during intimacy. The experience is different for everyone. Some people express happiness through tears of joy.   

I also have abandonment fears.  Is that a co-dependency thing?  I used to tell my ex-wife that she would leave me one day.  It happened much more after my dad's suicide.  I still feel like he abandoned me.

It is not necessarily codependent. It can be related to a variety of things, such as the loss of a parent.  Exploring the grief and loss may help you uncover the origin of your abandonment fears.

I obviously attract separated women that have BPD traits.  

Have you ever thought about why?

[1minuteatatime]

I am drafting a reply.  I have to say this, Eagles.  Happy New Year!  I want to meet you in person some day.  Just to get a beer and hang out.  I know that I am making this about me more than her.  My ego.  Me Me me... .  By posting here.  I just want her back.  I have a date tonight and a girl I met at the bar a couple of weeks after the break up contacted me.  She texted and then called.   

[1minuteatatime]

I looked back on my phone logs.  I was incessantly checking my phone from 11-15 thru 12-11, then I suddenly stopped checking.  It took me about 3 1/2 weeks to get my head on straight.  I think I detach quicker than most due to the suicides and other BS from prior issues.  My ego was hurt for sure, too.  She may be cutting me off to protect herself, too.  Not to punish... .

Why were you checking your phone?

She broke up with me on 11-14.  I was checking it over and over.  At night.  Every 20 minutes it seemed.  When I was with family, I didn't as much.  Did you check yours after the hurtful break?

I will drop things if it won't hurt me.  If we get back together, I may just let the phone go to VM if I have plans and call her back when I am free.   Perspective, here?  Normally I would always take her calls after work or on weekends.

If that happens in the future, why not tell her you are busy and will get back to her later?

Point taken.  She will have to accept some boundaries and I will, too.

I will never forget the time that we were driving(I was driving her car) and I was singing to her and I look over and she is crying.  It's crazy, but I felt that she was crying about the "inevitable" breakup.  I will never forget that.  She told me something strange and I felt like she was telling me through her body language that she "would never forget me".  Have you ever had moments like that?  

It is possible that something triggered her. Perhaps the song you were singing?  

It was "Say you do" by Dierks Bentley.  New song but it's about a guy asking his ex to lie and tell him that she still has feelings for her when she doesn't.  She seemed upset about something else, too.  Maybe her ex.  I just felt it.  I feel things sometimes that I don't understand.  Subconscious body language communication.  I usually have dreams that tell me more if it is important.  

Are you asking if I ever personally felt like I would never forget someone or if my pwBPD behaved in that way?  More if your pwBPD acted that way.

She cried the first time we had sex.  I didn't feel deeply about it.  Said it was "the best sex ever".  I told her that we/I had much room for "improvement"

It is apparent that it meant a lot to her.  :)o you see how your comment was invalidating her feelings?



I didn't until now.  I probably said invalidating things the entire time we were together.  I can't believe that things were so good for so long, looking back.  8 1/2 months.  But I was honest about who I was.  Just told her that I am not perfect dozens of times.  Told her all of the bad things about me.  How hurtful I was at times to the ex-wife, etc... . I told her some good, too.  I made sure she knew the darker side of me.  We all have two sides whether we admit it or not.  

Just curious if you had any similar experience.  Have you?  Weird stuff that I hadn't experienced before.  Even with my clearly(IMO) BPD-ex wife.

I have had experience with emotionality during intimacy. The experience is different for everyone. Some people express happiness through tears of joy.    



From him?(your SO)  I don't get too emotional with sex.  That was one of my ex-wife's complaints.  Other things were much more important to me.  I will say this, if the other stuff wasn't working(trust, etc), the sex doesn't work for me.  So there is an element.

I also have abandonment fears.  Is that a co-dependency thing?  I used to tell my ex-wife that she would leave me one day.  It happened much more after my dad's suicide.  I still feel like he abandoned me.

It is not necessarily codependent. It can be related to a variety of things, such as the loss of a parent.  Exploring the grief and loss may help you uncover the origin of your abandonment fears.  I have extreme fear of losing one of my kids.  I'm supposed to die first... . Understood.  I had some abandonment fears with ex-GF because she was/is separated and I know the odds of that working out.  I expressed those fears verbally and non-verbally.  That is why she said she lied about finalizing the divorce(albeit in great detail like getting him to sign and fax back, going to the courthouse to pick up the 121 pg decree, etc... ).  I admitted that she was correct that I didn't like it.  :)idn't expressly tell her of my abandonment fears.

I obviously attract separated women that have BPD traits.  

Have you ever thought about why?

Yes.  Over and over.  My friend says that he thinks I like the challenge.  I think it might have to do with some inherent narcissism.  I don't have fancy stuff or classic traits like that.  Mine are more around working out, talking about myself too much, being more selfish and controlling at times.  I score really low on tests for narcissism, though.  More avoidant-schzoid and dependent.  I have attracted two of them just in the last week.  It's got to be some vibe I put out.

My uncle keeps saying over and over that she will come back.  I have told him everything.  He thought it was extreme for her to tell me to never contact her again.  I have a date in an hour and another one next Friday.  Maybe one Sunday, too.  Just getting back out there seems to help.  

I like to be with her because she is a "challenge".  So freaking sadistic in some ways.  One of my ex's said that I get "bored" easy.  :)o you get bored easy?  Is it that you/we feel like it makes us more alive to deal with it?  I wasn't as bad before being married to my ex-wife 15 years.  I attracted many more balanced women.(but still liked the challenge)

[1minuteatatime]

So eagles, I keep thinking about her.  Dreaming about her.  I have never had dreams about a significant other as many times as I have had with her.  In today's, she was trying to get with my friend.  I did not wake up happy.  She is alone this week(unless she has someone new) but her brother lives with her.  He just avoids her when she has "rough nights" etc.  More than a few times at the end, she would be alone in her room, curled up in a little ball.  This woman has an excellent job and does well for herself.  No friends but her family helps her do just about everything.  She said that she hates FB but friended me on there while we were in the relationship.  I think she just wanted to check my posts, etc.  She unfriended me after a day and claimed that she friended me in error.  That she doesn't use FB.  That was weird to me.  If she comes back, I think it is today or two weeks from today.  She knows that I am dating.  Is that a bad thing that she likely knows it?  I don't/didn't tell her and she didn't ask.

I keep thinking about our last "in person" conversation where she asked "so we are nothing?"  It is just so weird for me to think about someone saying that after she broke it off with me 5-6 weeks before.  Honestly, we are nothing unless she decides to come back and try again. 

She has to know that I will not give up my entire being to be with her and anyone who does is not going to be healthy, either.  Somewhere deep down.  The new "Cam" song reminds me of her.(and BPD/co-dependent relationships in general)

Burning house:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyGSe76rAJc

 

[1minuteatatime]

This will probably be my last update for a long time.  I decided that I don't want to be thinking about what I should have done when I am 80.

So here is what I did(against my better judgment)  I texted her.  I texted her even though she said that she would never respond to my texts or phone calls.  I waited 8 days.  All of the females I asked about the situation told me to reach out to her.  To do something completely different from what I normally do.  That if she truly cares for me, she wants me to.  So here is the text convo:

Me:  Hey.  I have been thinking about you.  I apologize for being intractable.  My pop died 12/28.  I have a rough time.  It wasn't about you.

Immediately after, Me:  I'd like to see you again.  I miss you... .

Background:

(I have never told her that I missed her over text or on the phone.  Not once.  She had brought it up several times)

She texts me 30 seconds later.

Her:  Intractable?

Me:  An ass hat

10 minutes later, Her:  I would need to think about it, and I haven't allowed myself to.

Me:  I am open to listening to your feelings.  Truly listening.

Her:  Ass hat, perhaps not, stubborn, yes.

Me:  That's fair.

Her:  I think before we go any further, my divorce needs to be finalized

Me:  I think that was the most caring response that you could have given :-)

[1minuteatatime]

This will probably be my last update for a long time.  I decided that I don't want to be thinking about what I should have done when I am 80.

So here is what I did(against my better judgment)  I texted her.  I texted her even though she said that she would never respond to my texts or phone calls.  I waited 8 days.  All of the females I asked about the situation told me to reach out to her.  To do something completely different from what I normally do.  That if she truly cares for me, she wants me to.  So here is the text convo:

Me:  Hey.  I have been thinking about you.  I apologize for being intractable.  My pop died 12/28.  I have a rough time.  It wasn't about you.

Immediately after, Me:  I'd like to see you again.  I miss you... .

Background:

(I have never told her that I missed her over text or on the phone.  Not once.  She had brought it up several times)

She texts me 30 seconds later.

Her:  Intractable?

Me:  An ass hat

10 minutes later, Her:  I would need to think about it, and I haven't allowed myself to.

Me:  I am open to listening to your feelings.  Truly listening.

Her:  Ass hat, perhaps not, stubborn, yes.

Me:  That's fair.

Her:  I think before we go any further, my divorce needs to be finalized

Me:  I think that was the most caring response that you could have given :-)

I sent one last text... .

Me:  I apologize for being stubborn(I was)  I tend to let things bother me more than usual around xmas.  You don't deserve stubborn. 


I will not text or call again... .  I am going to let her initiate, set up and see me.  I want her to get divorced first.  I do.

Who knows if she if with someone else.  She had her dating profile back up before we split.(I checked the day of the split and she had been on it within 3 days of the split.

[EaglesJuju]

Hi 1minuteatatime,

The text conversation seems like it went well. When people respond to you it typically means that they care.  Do you think that too and how do you feel about what you texted her?

You mentioned that you never told her that you missed her over text or phone before, that seems like a big step for you. 

I think you have the right idea and giving her the opportunity to reach out to you. 

[livednlearned]

So here is what I did(against my better judgment)  I texted her.  I texted her even though she said that she would never respond to my texts or phone calls.  I waited 8 days.  All of the females I asked about the situation told me to reach out to her.  To do something completely different from what I normally do.  That if she truly cares for me, she wants me to. 

There is an interesting book called Attached: The Science of Adult Romantic Relationships by Dr. Amir Levine that might shed some light on how intimacy affects your communication style.

The book review is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279027.msg12639672#msg12639672

[1minuteatatime]

Hi 1minuteatatime,

The text conversation seems like it went well. When people respond to you it typically means that they care.  :)o you think that too and how do you feel about what you texted her?

You mentioned that you never told her that you missed her over text or phone before, that seems like a big step for you.  

I think you have the right idea and giving her the opportunity to reach out to you.  

Eagles:  I felt like a 30 second response when she said that she would never contact me again showed that she was thinking about me and cared.  Even though it was one word.  Funny thing is, the only other love of my life asked me about the word "semblance" in the same way she said "Intractable?" when I reached out to her 20 years ago.

I felt great about what I texted her.  My blood pressure was 95/62 today and I feel at peace.  I know that she may never return.  I know that nothing is guaranteed.  I know that I frankly may find someone else.  But.  I know that I care deeply for her, now.  She drives me crazy.  I know that I MUST work on me and be stronger than I have ever been.  Whether she returns or not.  I know that if she returns, she will test, push boundaries and make sure that I care and love her.  Part of that is her knowing that I will let her go.  It sounds crazy.  But I know it is true.  "Only know you love her when you let her go"-Passenger

Eagles-  It was a huge step for me to tell her that I missed her.  I say it jokingly to my guy friends, but have never said that to a female that I can recall.  

When I typed that I missed her, I actually was emotional.  Probably sounds stupid.  I also wondered how she felt when she saw the text.  If she was in her office, too.  Visualized where I thought she was.  I was doing it to try to tell her that I care deeply for her without saying I love her.  

Eagles:  Was that manipulative?  Saying that I missed her?  I do miss her.  A lot.  But... .I sent it because I wanted to show extreme care.  To get an emotional response of care back.  That my head was in a different place.  That my ego/anger was not there.  It was just me laid bare.  Exposed.  Unafraid of no response.  I was going to put it out there.

Love is difficult for me to express.  I do it through actions and I only say it when I am sure.  I tell my kids I love them every time I see them.  Every time.

I know I care for her deeply but she is attached and I know the odds... . I told her the odds (5%) when you are the first person dating a separated person.  My uncle says I am a liar and I love her.

I expressed many times my concern over her unresolved marriage (she filed for divorce in September, 2014)  Her saying it like this:  "I think before we go any further, my divorce needs to be finalized."  Was amazing to me.  It was like I was super vulnerable and she in return said that she felt like nothing would happen unless she took that action (in her words for now).  

Do you think she was "in my head" a bit to know that I felt like this would just be a fling if we had sex on xmas before her marriage was over?  That I wanted HER to make that choice?  

I know that she has been in therapy for a long time and I have never been.  I feel like I have much work to do.  I called the counseling office and left a message.  

I sense that she is trying to work on herself, too.  I honestly don't know, though.  

Is it ok that I felt a lot of negative emotions the last month and didn't express them?  I know that I needed to but does that show my level of immaturity?  I have never been anxious around a female or a SO until that last month.  It scared me that I had trouble calming myself when normally it is easy.  I fall asleep in 5 minutes.  Even with my ex.  

[1minuteatatime]

So here is what I did(against my better judgment)  I texted her.  I texted her even though she said that she would never respond to my texts or phone calls.  I waited 8 days.  All of the females I asked about the situation told me to reach out to her.  To do something completely different from what I normally do.  That if she truly cares for me, she wants me to. 

There is an interesting book called Attached: The Science of Adult Romantic Relationships by Dr. Amir Levine that might shed some light on how intimacy affects your communication style.

The book review is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279027.msg12639672#msg12639672

Thanks, Lived

I will check that out.  I am in chapter 4 of the "high conflict couple" 

Do you think that me doing something totally out of my comfort zone threw her off?  I just wanted to see if she cared. 

[livednlearned]

Do you think that me doing something totally out of my comfort zone threw her off?  I just wanted to see if she cared. 

If you tend to have a more avoidant attachment style, then chances are you weren't as susceptible to neediness/clinginess that some members here experience (which tends to be associated with anxious attachment styles). It could be less about "throwing her off" and more about reassuring her.

[1minuteatatime]

Do you think that me doing something totally out of my comfort zone threw her off?  I just wanted to see if she cared. 

If you tend to have a more avoidant attachment style, then chances are you weren't as susceptible to neediness/clinginess that some members here experience (which tends to be associated with anxious attachment styles). It could be less about "throwing her off" and more about reassuring her.

I have an avoidant style.  In my personality test, I scored at 60% and high on the schzoid side, too.

I feel at peace.  I feel like I did all that I could do. 

Eagles/Livednlearned-

Have you ever been through this and felt "at peace" with what you did.  That you laid it out and let it go(so to speak)?  What did you feel like in those moments where you knew that you had no control but you were vulnerable?   I don't like feeling vulnerable but without that, life is just a gray event.  No color. 

I also have an insecure attachment style with a SO.  Very secure with family(in fact, I am the patriarch)  I need to be less dependent once I get more attached.  Realize that relationships can, in fact, be fleeting.

[EaglesJuju]

It was a huge step for me to tell her that I missed her.  I say it jokingly to my guy friends, but have never said that to a female that I can recall.  

When I typed that I missed her, I actually was emotional.  Probably sounds stupid.  I also wondered how she felt when she saw the text.  If she was in her office, too.  Visualized where I thought she was.  I was doing it to try to tell her that I care deeply for her without saying I love her.  

I can imagine how it must have been like to do something that you never did before. I think you being emotional is far from stupid actually. I think it is courageous to open up and share your emotions and feelings. Emotional intimacy is a foundation for relationships. 

Eagles:  Was that manipulative?  Saying that I missed her?  I do miss her.  A lot.  But... .I sent it because I wanted to show extreme care.  To get an emotional response of care back.  That my head was in a different place.  That my ego/anger was not there.  It was just me laid bare.  Exposed.  Unafraid of no response.  I was going to put it out there.

It is not manipulative if you meant it.    I think that you expressed that quite well. I think it would be manipulative if you were saying that with the intent of reeling her in so-to-speak and not feeling that way. Was it empowering for you to feel vulnerable?

Love is difficult for me to express.  I do it through actions and I only say it when I am sure.  I tell my kids I love them every time I see them.  Every time.

I know I care for her deeply but she is attached and I know the odds... . I told her the odds (5%) when you are the first person dating a separated person.  My uncle says I am a liar and I love her.

Is your uncle right? Are you scared to love her because of the odds?

Do you think she was "in my head" a bit to know that I felt like this would just be a fling if we had sex on xmas before her marriage was over?  That I wanted HER to make that choice?  

I really am unsure of what you mean by that. Although I think that it was most likely something that she wanted to do for herself.

Is it ok that I felt a lot of negative emotions the last month and didn't express them?  I know that I needed to but does that show my level of immaturity?  I have never been anxious around a female or a SO until that last month.  It scared me that I had trouble calming myself when normally it is easy.  I fall asleep in 5 minutes.  Even with my ex.  

Negative emotions, such as anger and sadness? 

Eagles/Livednlearned-

Have you ever been through this and felt "at peace" with what you did.  That you laid it out and let it go(so to speak)?  What did you feel like in those moments where you knew that you had no control but you were vulnerable?   I don't like feeling vulnerable but without that, life is just a gray event.  No color. 

I also have an insecure attachment style with a SO.  Very secure with family(in fact, I am the patriarch)  I need to be less dependent once I get more attached.  Realize that relationships can, in fact, be fleeting.

I am very open with my feelings and express them quite often. I think vulnerability is about letting go and not afraid of sharing your thoughts and feelings with another. It is essentially trust and openness. 

Dependency can get a bad rap. There is a healthy of dependency that is needed in a successful relationship. 

[1minuteatatime]

It was a huge step for me to tell her that I missed her.  I say it jokingly to my guy friends, but have never said that to a female that I can recall.  

When I typed that I missed her, I actually was emotional.  Probably sounds stupid.  I also wondered how she felt when she saw the text.  If she was in her office, too.  Visualized where I thought she was.  I was doing it to try to tell her that I care deeply for her without saying I love her.  

I can imagine how it must have been like to do something that you never did before. I think you being emotional is far from stupid actually. I think it is courageous to open up and share your emotions and feelings. Emotional intimacy is a foundation for relationships. 

I felt better.  I felt relief.  I still don't feel a need to contact her. It's like I don't miss her because I admitted that I missed her.  It's like embracing the feeling of missing her made it ok.  I think THAT is probably stupid. 

Eagles:  Was that manipulative?  Saying that I missed her?  I do miss her.  A lot.  But... .I sent it because I wanted to show extreme care.  To get an emotional response of care back.  That my head was in a different place.  That my ego/anger was not there.  It was just me laid bare.  Exposed.  Unafraid of no response.  I was going to put it out there.

It is not manipulative if you meant it.    I think that you expressed that quite well. I think it would be manipulative if you were saying that with the intent of reeling her in so-to-speak and not feeling that way. Was it empowering for you to feel vulnerable?

Yes.  It was.  I felt in control of my emotions even though I was emotional. Really feels weird.  I know I can let her go.  I don't want her to go.  I know that I can.  Did it for 30 days.  I can do it forever if she doesn't accept me.

Love is difficult for me to express.  I do it through actions and I only say it when I am sure.  I tell my kids I love them every time I see them.  Every time.

I know I care for her deeply but she is attached and I know the odds... . I told her the odds (5%) when you are the first person dating a separated person.  My uncle says I am a liar and I love her.

Is your uncle right? Are you scared to love her because of the odds?

Yes.  I am scared to love her.  I told her that I was scared once.  Do you know how ridiculously stupid/irrational it is to love a separated woman?

Do you think she was "in my head" a bit to know that I felt like this would just be a fling if we had sex on xmas before her marriage was over?  That I wanted HER to make that choice?  

I really am unsure of what you mean by that. Although I think that it was most likely something that she wanted to do for herself.

Ok.  I knew in my head that if we had sex that night, we would not have any chance. I told my uncle that, too.  I felt our only chance was for her to get divorced.  First.  I pretty much told her that.  It was not an ultimatum.  It was/is the way I feel.  It is completely up to her.

Is it ok that I felt a lot of negative emotions the last month and didn't express them?  I know that I needed to but does that show my level of immaturity?  I have never been anxious around a female or a SO until that last month.  It scared me that I had trouble calming myself when normally it is easy.  I fall asleep in 5 minutes.  Even with my ex.  

Negative emotions, such as anger and sadness? 

anxiety.  depression.  sadness.  Not feeling like I could express the way I felt.  heart racing with anxiety.  Not sleeping well with her.  Is that co-dependency?  Waiting for an outburst

Eagles/Livednlearned-

Have you ever been through this and felt "at peace" with what you did.  That you laid it out and let it go(so to speak)?  What did you feel like in those moments where you knew that you had no control but you were vulnerable?   I don't like feeling vulnerable but without that, life is just a gray event.  No color. 

I also have an insecure attachment style with a SO.  Very secure with family(in fact, I am the patriarch)  I need to be less dependent once I get more attached.  Realize that relationships can, in fact, be fleeting.

I am very open with my feelings and express them quite often. I think vulnerability is about letting go and not afraid of sharing your thoughts and feelings with another. It is essentially trust and openness. 

Dependency can get a bad rap. There is a healthy of dependency that is needed in a successful relationship. 

So Eagles... .  Do you feel "at peace" when you express yourself to him?  I fear expressing them with her.  Since she is not divorced.  It's a big deal to me because of the research I did on it.  Especially since she is bitter at the ex.  If she wasn't, I would feel better.

[EaglesJuju]

Yes.  It was.  I felt in control of my emotions even though I was emotional. Really feels weird.  I know I can let her go.  I don't want her to go.  I know that I can.  Did it for 30 days.  I can do it forever if she doesn't accept me.

In my opinion, I think acceptance should start with you.  Accepting your emotions and feelings is something that you are beginning to do.

Yes.  I am scared to love her.  I told her that I was scared once.  Do you know how ridiculously stupid/irrational it is to love a separated woman?

Being scared is common. It can be scary for someone to love and trust someone, especially if they have been hurt before. Why do you think it is stupid/irrational to love a separated woman?

anxiety.  depression.  sadness.  Not feeling like I could express the way I felt.  heart racing with anxiety.  Not sleeping well with her.  Is that co-dependency?Waiting for an outburst

Anxiety, depression, and sadness are common emotions when a relationship ends. I would not attribute  those emotions to codependency. Do you think you are codependent?

So Eagles... .  Do you feel "at peace" when you express yourself to him?I fear expressing them with her.  Since she is not divorced.  It's a big deal to me because of the research I did on it.  Especially since she is bitter at the ex.  If she wasn't, I would feel better.

When I express my feelings and emotions, it does make me feel more at peace and connected with him. 

Is your fear of expressing emotions related to a fear of being hurt? What research are you referring to?

[1minuteatatime]

In my opinion, I think acceptance should start with you.  Accepting your emotions and feelings is something that you are beginning to do.

Is she likely to express herself more if I do?  When I texted her on Monday and she texted back, I could sense that she was watching her words(as I was) especially since I was coming from my heart.  It's so strange that I care about her as much as I do but I don't want to be consumed(or her to be consumed).  I think we are better, together.  She knows everything important about me.  All of the hidden pain.  I am starting to question whether she is just very emotional and doesn't have BPD.  Maybe it is the breakup in her marriage that is the cause of all of the emotional stuff.

Being scared is common. It can be scary for someone to love and trust someone, especially if they have been hurt before. Why do you think it is stupid/irrational to love a separated woman?  Because only about 1 in 20 instances of being the first to date a separated woman works out.

Anxiety, depression, and sadness are common emotions when a relationship ends. I would not attribute  those emotions to codependency. Do you think you are codependent?

I was having those emotions the month before the breakup.  I think that I have co-dependent traits.  Funny that I have worked on many of the co-dependency issues before without knowing the term co-dependent.  I have to work at being assertive at times.  I am really good around family and friends.  I am bold with women but with her I got anxiety and depressed more at the end.  I told her that I felt depressed once.  She asked if it was her.  I told her I didn't think so.

When I express my feelings and emotions, it does make me feel more at peace and connected with him.



I'm really good with my kids about this.  I feel at peace with them all of the time.  I think the lying and not openly discussing my feelings hurt me more than her.


Is your fear of expressing emotions related to a fear of being hurt? What research are you referring to?

Yes.  I am afraid that without her having the situation(divorce) settled, her emotions are all over the place.  :)aily.  I have walled off some because of that.  Early on(in the first couple of months), she texted me and said that she couldn't see me anymore.  I texted back "no problem"  The next day she asked if she could see me again.  Since then, I have been more closed[/quote]
Therapists say that only about 5% of people end up being with someone long term if they were the first person they dated seriously after being separated.

Most of the stuff I have seen says to not mess with separated partners.  Too emotional.  Of course, I am talking to one on the phone daily, now... .