Ashamed

[Darsha500]

Hi all, I haven't posted a thread in some time, but was just knocked on my fany moments ago and feel the need to share. I believe this is relevant to detachment but if not I understand if it gets moved.

So for all my past talk of my refusal to feel ashamed, I must admit I have been having some pretty strong shame attacks latley. The reason for This comes as a result of looking at myself and seeing those characteristics that i REALLY dislike about myself. The characteristics and traits that i played out in my BPD relationship.

I'm reading a book called no more mr. Nice guy. Which discusses recovery from the nice guy syndrome. A cluster of traits and beliefs that cause guys to neglect there own needs in appeasement to others in hopes that there world will run smoothly and that they will be rewarded with love.

Well, the book has been discussing things like boundaries. How by not asserting boundaries nice guys basically train there partners that they will tolerate the intolerable. As I was reflecting on his words my face turned into a grimace. Seeing myself in the authors examples disgusted me. I was knocked right on my butt. I really do not like the version of myself that relinquishes his personal power. But in a way this disgust is good. Because now I have this huge gap between the me I want to become and the old me. The disgust propels me to act in accordance with my new values. Almost like aversion therapy for alcohol, were you take a drug that makes you throw up when you drink alcohol. In the same way I feel sick when I fail to live up to my value. When I forsake myself. When I betray myself. I will know it. I cannot live that way I use to anymore.

This is why I am grateful for my BPD relationship. Because I don't know how long it would have been before I learned these invaluable lessons of self care and self love. These are the lessons that serve as a foundation for the rest of my life.

"Sometimes we have to watch our whole lives fall apart so we can rebuild again on a greater foundation."

[Itstopsnow]

I have been having many feelings of shame. I feel very ashamed that I dated him. And ashamed that I stayed as long as I did when everyone was telling me he was the wrong guy for me! And ashamed I allowed myself to be treated that way. I don't think I would be so navive again. But I never thought I would allow this to happen to me as well. They can be so manipulating . I guess living through it will strengthen anyone

[Darsha500]

Yah. You mention the manipulating thing. I've been reflecting on the gas lighting. Because I think back about my attempts to assert my boundaries and tell her that I didn't like the things she would tell me or the ways she would treat me. But then she would turn it around on me and say assert that I was weak and sensitive. That I couldn't handle the truth. That I censored her and made her feel like she was waking on egg shells. She was really convincing. I bought into what she said. This made my self esteem falls even lower because I thought "maybe she is right." Looking back now I see that that I was entirely within my right to assert the boundaries that I did. That the things she was discussing with me and the ways she was treating me were very inappropriate. Now in the future I know that I can trust myself rather than deffering to someone else. This is how I maintain my personal power.


Reclaiming personal power is really such a gift though. It's like this power has been within me all along. Just like Dorothy with her ability to return home. Its as if I had to travel my own yellow brick road to come to grips with my power.

[Hmcbart]

I have seen that book but never thought about before.  I am adding this to my reading list.  I have done exactly that, give away all my power to someone who treats me poorly. 

[thisworld]

I think many of us, and perhaps especially men, are raised within a certain cultural conditioning that signifies the importance of being powerful. Then we experience powerlessness in these relationships. It's not easy but a direct result of the emotional abuse we go through. They turn us inside out. Then we look into ourselves to heal, come across theories (which are mostly correct) but they again talk about our boundary issues, which says weak weak weak. It's hard to take.

Yet, that's not the whole truth about us. The more discover ourselves, the more aware we become of our strong points that kept us in these relationships as well. There is tremendous power in staying in something like that, only that power is used wrongly.

Similarly, lack of boundaries is interesting. It's not just a weakness. Actually, when you look at it from another angle, it's extremely risky behaviour. We are more risk-prone than bull-fighters and stunt pullers. It's crazy:)) We are, in all our meekness in front of our aggressors, very very risky people:))

I once wrote something about my positive qualities that kept me in this relationship. In my lack of boundaries, codependence even, there were so many strengths. We need to evaluate ourselves from an empowering perspective I think. Shame is normal, but we need to build something else on it because that will also be more realistic. Codependence is not a characteristic, it is certain behaviours which mean different things in different relationships. Under different circumstances, your behaviours would be very caring. It's good to utilize right behaviours in right places but it's also good that shame is sometimes a very common symptom among violence and abuse survivors.

I know we need to own all our feelings, it's good to experience all of them so that we can deal with them and sort ourselves out. But there is no need to label ourselves with a bunch of negative descriptions like "weak" etc. Those feelings shall pass. 

[Darsha500]

Oh man. Thank you this world. You totally shined a different light on my issue that makes allot of sense. It's so funny cause I was seriously having a similar thought the other night. I was reflecting on how truly risky my behaviors were. When I plunged back into the relationship for the finally time it felt like SUCH A DARING MANUEVER! In retrospect it may have been a little foolish. But there I go again looking at the negative. If I cover up the negative qualities though, your so right, there are tons of positive qualities to see as well. There is so much tenacity there, so much passion and dedication to ideals. The ideals of love, the ideal of healing. There was courage and strength present in my actions. There was personal power.

Thank you again. I'm really glad I shared so that I could get your guys feedback.

[thisworld]

You are welcome Darsha:)) Now we all have the privilege to go to Scotland for some paragliding in February and think" Bleh, I've weathered through worse storms." 

What I'm posting below is something I worked on previously and I'll use it as the foundation of my self-awareness work.  maybe, if you do something similar for yourself, looking at all aspects of yourself - not just virtues, but habits etc, you would discover way more power:))

"I think when a turbulent relationship with some devastating experiences fails, we tend to look for weaknesses in ourselves. After a couple of these relationships (low-grade non-grandiose Narc mom, 10-12 years of marriage with a difficult husband - but not cluster B- , 8 months with a high functioning cerebral narc and 2-3 months with a dysfunctional BPD with strong narcissistic traits and somatic narcissism -and yes, I had healthy relationships, too) I'm now of the opinion that some positive qualities we possess also contribute to our demise in these relationships. Plus, codependency is often stereotyped and doesn't always occur through our weaknesses, there are very strong and independent people who somehow come up with these patterns in relationships. And the last but not the least, these relationships have an abusive nature, and people tend to stay longer than usual in these relationships for a variety of reasons embedded in the nature of the relationship rather than their usual personalities. When I ask myself why I stayed, the following are my answers:

1. Inexperience: The first is usually the longest. Have a couple of relationships like this and it becomes easier to see patterns. Then you get out quicker. (The question of why I repeated is something I'm working on.)

2. Their experience: People who don't have necessary emotional, cognitive and whatnot tools to build long-time intimate relationships have honed their skills really well to attract and charm people. This is one of the basic things their emotional survival (and sometimes physical) depends on. They can be dysfunctional themselves but attract high functioning people. There is no way I could attract anyone if I was as dysfunctional as my last partner, yet he did it:)) We have different skill sets, initial attraction is their playground.

3. Rationality: I love this one. Rational people tend to remain in irrational dialogues and all sorts of unhealthy communication because they are rational and probably not arrogant. They simply think that the problem could be solved rationally, the argument could be put back into a rational framework with rational tools. Well, not in Cluster B. This results in the rational one becoming crazy. I now see this as my half-rationality when interacting with Cluster B, a fully rational person sees it for what it is and stops believing that this can be solved rationally at home.

4. Well-developed problem solving skills: My inner voice: "I have tremendous problem solving skills, they have helped me everywhere in my life. My partner seems a bit crazy, but no worries, I can solve this with my problem-solving skills." (This is where my codependency and controlling aspects of my character come into play, not through lack of independence and confidence but the other way around.)

5. Lack of acceptance (probably an ego thing as well): My inner voice: "I have spent an enormous amount of time in an ultimately pointless relationship. I lost a lot of things and a lot of time. This is very difficult to accept because I don't see myself as someone who falls for this kind of drama in other aspects of my life. I have to stay and sort this out for my ego's sake. Gosh, I can't have done this! I can't have done this! I'll stay and sort this out and prove to myself that I haven't done this!  Empathy)     

6. An observing personality rather than a judging one: My inner voice "I've never seen anything like this. What's he going to do now? Let me stay and learn." Well well, curiosity killed the cat smiley

7. Denial: My inner voice: "I'm not in an abusive relationship. I'm a high functioning, independent person. I cannot be abused, it's for other people. It cannot happen in my life. This is something else."

8. Guilt: My inner voice: "In the end of the day, I know my life will be OK after this. His may not be. I shouldn't leave him like this. Not right now. Maybe when he gets a bit better."  Sometimes we stay out of politeness smiley

I sometimes feel engulfed but think it's very rude to admit this, especially if they seem to be "working" on the relationship.

Some elements of abusive relationships:

1. It works in cycles: The low is very low but the high is very high (compensation, otherwise nobody would stay). With the right amount of "high", we stay in these relationships. In abuse terminology, this is called "dosing."

2. Our confidence or belief in something is eroded even though we may not admit it.

3. We get used to the adrenalin high we get from fights and start missing it, too.

4. Sex is used as a control tool in these relationships a lot and at first we don't understand it. If there is a lot of sex we stay because it's extraordinary. Even when we start seeing it as a control tool, for a while we stay because what the heck, we are enjoying it. When there isn't a lot of sex, we again stay because we want to get it back (for ego-reasons).

5. We are trained, conditioned to lower our standards,  decrease our expectations slowly. But this happens pretty slowly. Somewhere in the middle, we are simply grateful that there isn't a big drama that day. Lack of drama starts feeling good enough. At one point, I was simply grateful that my partner cooked and cleaned the kitchen counter  huh Also, these days lacking drama are our only windows for problem solving. But we know what happens when we try to build boundaries or problem-solve. We are very tired emotionally so choose the easy road of just letting go, just for that day. Those days build up.

6. Our schema is confused. Being exposed to constantly contradicting behaviour does this to us. We can't act as soundly as we do in other things in life.

7. Illusionary comfort of the familiar: he is crazy but at least he is "my" crazy, and there is the semblance of a relationship at home. (This despite my being a very independent person.) "

Best,

[izabellizima]

What I'm posting below is something I worked on previously and I'll use it as the foundation of my self-awareness work.  maybe, if you do something similar for yourself, looking at all aspects of yourself - not just virtues, but habits etc, you would discover way more power:))

"I think when a turbulent relationship with some devastating experiences fails, we tend to look for weaknesses in ourselves. After a couple of these relationships (low-grade non-grandiose Narc mom, 10-12 years of marriage with a difficult husband - but not cluster B- , 8 months with a high functioning cerebral narc and 2-3 months with a dysfunctional BPD with strong narcissistic traits and somatic narcissism -and yes, I had healthy relationships, too) I'm now of the opinion that some positive qualities we possess also contribute to our demise in these relationships. Plus, codependency is often stereotyped and doesn't always occur through our weaknesses, there are very strong and independent people who somehow come up with these patterns in relationships. And the last but not the least, these relationships have an abusive nature, and people tend to stay longer than usual in these relationships for a variety of reasons embedded in the nature of the relationship rather than their usual personalities. When I ask myself why I stayed, the following are my answers:

1. Inexperience: The first is usually the longest. Have a couple of relationships like this and it becomes easier to see patterns. Then you get out quicker. (The question of why I repeated is something I'm working on.)

2. Their experience: People who don't have necessary emotional, cognitive and whatnot tools to build long-time intimate relationships have honed their skills really well to attract and charm people. This is one of the basic things their emotional survival (and sometimes physical) depends on. They can be dysfunctional themselves but attract high functioning people. There is no way I could attract anyone if I was as dysfunctional as my last partner, yet he did it:)) We have different skill sets, initial attraction is their playground.

3. Rationality: I love this one. Rational people tend to remain in irrational dialogues and all sorts of unhealthy communication because they are rational and probably not arrogant. They simply think that the problem could be solved rationally, the argument could be put back into a rational framework with rational tools. Well, not in Cluster B. This results in the rational one becoming crazy. I now see this as my half-rationality when interacting with Cluster B, a fully rational person sees it for what it is and stops believing that this can be solved rationally at home.

4. Well-developed problem solving skills: My inner voice: "I have tremendous problem solving skills, they have helped me everywhere in my life. My partner seems a bit crazy, but no worries, I can solve this with my problem-solving skills." (This is where my codependency and controlling aspects of my character come into play, not through lack of independence and confidence but the other way around.)

5. Lack of acceptance (probably an ego thing as well): My inner voice: "I have spent an enormous amount of time in an ultimately pointless relationship. I lost a lot of things and a lot of time. This is very difficult to accept because I don't see myself as someone who falls for this kind of drama in other aspects of my life. I have to stay and sort this out for my ego's sake. Gosh, I can't have done this! I can't have done this! I'll stay and sort this out and prove to myself that I haven't done this!  Empathy)     

6. An observing personality rather than a judging one: My inner voice "I've never seen anything like this. What's he going to do now? Let me stay and learn." Well well, curiosity killed the cat smiley

7. Denial: My inner voice: "I'm not in an abusive relationship. I'm a high functioning, independent person. I cannot be abused, it's for other people. It cannot happen in my life. This is something else."

8. Guilt: My inner voice: "In the end of the day, I know my life will be OK after this. His may not be. I shouldn't leave him like this. Not right now. Maybe when he gets a bit better."  Sometimes we stay out of politeness smiley

I sometimes feel engulfed but think it's very rude to admit this, especially if they seem to be "working" on the relationship.

Some elements of abusive relationships:

1. It works in cycles: The low is very low but the high is very high (compensation, otherwise nobody would stay). With the right amount of "high", we stay in these relationships. In abuse terminology, this is called "dosing."

2. Our confidence or belief in something is eroded even though we may not admit it.

3. We get used to the adrenalin high we get from fights and start missing it, too.

4. Sex is used as a control tool in these relationships a lot and at first we don't understand it. If there is a lot of sex we stay because it's extraordinary. Even when we start seeing it as a control tool, for a while we stay because what the heck, we are enjoying it. When there isn't a lot of sex, we again stay because we want to get it back (for ego-reasons).

5. We are trained, conditioned to lower our standards,  decrease our expectations slowly. But this happens pretty slowly. Somewhere in the middle, we are simply grateful that there isn't a big drama that day. Lack of drama starts feeling good enough. At one point, I was simply grateful that my partner cooked and cleaned the kitchen counter  huh Also, these days lacking drama are our only windows for problem solving. But we know what happens when we try to build boundaries or problem-solve. We are very tired emotionally so choose the easy road of just letting go, just for that day. Those days build up.

6. Our schema is confused. Being exposed to constantly contradicting behaviour does this to us. We can't act as soundly as we do in other things in life.

7. Illusionary comfort of the familiar: he is crazy but at least he is "my" crazy, and there is the semblance of a relationship at home. (This despite my being a very independent person.) "

This is one of the most helpful things I've ever read. Ever. It is taking me from a position of weakness to a position of strength. "All she needs is a stable environment and love and support and she will bloom." I know I've been beating myself because this can be seen as controlling, but it can also be a very loving kind statement and I HAVE to remember that I am kind and I tried. The part about being grateful for just bare minimum, no drama quiet days resounds loudly. Thanks so so much!

"What was I so scared of that YOU were a better choice." - Living Out Loud (film with Holly Hunter)

[homefree]

We are very tired emotionally so choose the easy road of just letting go, just for that day. Those days build up.

Wow. I've somehow forgotten this. I spent so much time getting the relationship back to where I thought it would be good again that I did everything I could to not rock the boat for fear that it would undo all the time I had just spent getting things back to 'better'. Which meant I was powerless (in my head) to do anything to truly address problems because I wanted to just keep them fading away, and if I addressed them I felt that it would bring their power back. Of course, this is what walking on eggshells is all about, but I don't think I really appreciated until just now how much of the time was spent in trying to make sure the good times came back at the cost of addressing any of the problems that had happened or what I had felt about it. Everything was dropped immediately and I was just holding my breath until the good times came back. They did, more and more slowly over time, and then they would disappear at a faster and faster rate when they did show up.

I agree that we shouldn't feel like we were week. It took an enormous amount of patience, tolerance, and energy to keep things together. A type of courage and strength that we don't recognize because of the pain that it keeps us mired in.