Need perspective: Jealous of cheaters

[homefree]

I think this stems from my low number of relationships and the low self esteem that put me in such a powerless situation in the relationship in the first place, not to mention the ease and speed with which she was able to replace me.

Whenever I hear about cheaters, or think about her cheating like she has in the past (previous husband, none that i know of with me), I get jealous. Same when I see others who have a 'problem' of cheating. The idea of me even being able to get another relationship at this point (I know i'm not ready and will work on myself before I pursue that) seems so difficult, yet she and others seem to almost have this flaw where they can't keep from getting laid or having someone fall for them.

It has only recently become clear to me that I'm jealous of this seeming 'ability' to just pull others into sexual or long term relationships, almost as if they can't stop it, where as I feel like I'm going to have to work very hard to make that happen, should I decide I want that. Given my long history of being alone and having poor success with relationships (almost entirely due to my low self esteem), I understand where this is coming from, but for some reason the fact that I'm jealous bothers me a lot. It feels distorted.

I'm not unattractive, and a catch in many regards, but I'm in a state where I just wish I had this 'power'.

I don't know. Has anyone else felt that way? Can someone give me another perspective on this?

Thanks 

[thisworld]

Hell yeah, I even get angry because of this sometimes and I'm usually told that I'm a rather attractive woman. My T and I talked about this and it came at a moment when I said I felt like I would never be able to get rid of this narcissistic person who cannot tolerate NC. We were talking about me going gray rock (basically, being as bland as possible so that I get replaced easily). Only, he is so dysfunctional that I was afraid he would not be able to get a replacement in near future and I'd have to go on with this for a long time. My T laughed and said "He attracted you:))" And hell, he did! This completely dysfunctional, addiction ridden (heroin!) person managed to attract me, my high-functioning attractive self:)) My recent dating history: a surgeon, a pilot, and this guy:)) I even considered being with him my biggest success:)) Also, if I was under his circumstances, there is NO WAY I would be able to attract anyone like myself, or simply anyone. I don't think you would, either.

But my T explains this in a different way and there isn't much need to be jealous actually. It's not as big a success as it seems to us. Obviously, we need to accept that this is their playground. They have special skills in this attraction stage. But this is because they lack certain cognitive and emotional capacities that prevent them from satisfying people in the long run. So, they have developed their expertise in this initial stage. It's a tool for survival.

I think we could do it, too - maybe not as successfully in the beginning but practice makes perfect. First of, let's accept that nobody finds "them" attractive actually. Probably many people would run for the hills if they showed those problematic aspects of their "selves." I'm even thinking who is "he"? What is his "self"? he doesn't know, either. So, there is no self that attracts anyone here. There is that mirroring and we fall for what we think is there. Strategies I now see in the mirroring (maybe they were not exactly strategies for them but this is how my ex operates even if unconsciously): Come very strong on people, get rid of any idea you may have had elsewhere and fully become (like a chameleon) who you think the other person is. Expand on it. Become them more than them! At the same time, lie about your past completely and come with a victim narrative. Become the biggest victim ever and embellish it with forgiveness and compassion. Also, once you are in their place, constantly offer sexuality. Drop any dignity and walk behind people at home 24/7 with an erection, semi-erection and puppy eyes.

It was basically like this. I believe, if we start acting like that, if we imitate people rather than be ourselves and have the stomach to do things we wouldn't do (due to ethical concerns, a sense of self, dignity, maturity) whatever, we will always be able to "achieve" what they achieve. Maybe my ex was an unconscious chameleon, I see that - thought that's not all to him, he knows what works and what doesn't. He is so repetitive even with the songs he sends to women:)) Whatever his motives, mechanism, the effect on me is this: I was conned.

So, yeah, we don't need to be jealous of conmen. It's not an unreachable skill. Just get out of the ethical franework that bans certain actions for you, get rid of any guilt about abusing people's trust, and anyone can be a conman.

You know what, maybe we don't attract as many people as we would like to. They don't come flooding toward us. But you know why, they would attract even less people than us if they played with our rules - at least showed people who they were. They are not more attractive than us, they are less. That's why they keep on hiding themselves.     

[bAlex]

I can relate - seeing good guys lose and bad ppl taking the spoils kinda sucks. I can only speak for myself here, and I am by no means some expert with women. But I tend to attract the most interest when I'm just enjoying myself, and being generally happy and not deliberately trying to make it happen. Ppl seem to just naturally gravitate towards you. Haven't had that in quite some time but I remember that being the case. Being in shape helped quite a bit too.

[homefree]

Thank you, TW.

And you are right. She is/was a chameleon. I even knew this, and would witness it before our relationship. I just foolishly thought that she was the most herself when she was around me! 

I guess it's true, I could con women. Try to fit myself perfectly to the needs I sensed in them, did everything I could to pull them to me. But none of that is real. And if it's not a one night stand, it will just end in disaster because it can't be kept up for the long term.

I know this stems from absence of the physical aspects of the relationship and of the longing I have for physical intimacy. It's part of the addiction that I'm try to wean myself from, and just another part of the hole in my heart. Having the easy ability to fill that seems so desirable right now. But, unlike them, I understand that just throwing people into that emptiness doesn't last, and that I need to fix it another way.

Catching new supplies is their method of dealing with it. It soothes it, but it doesn't fix it and the soothing doesn't last. It's not a good way of dealing with it. It's what causes this endless cycle with them and what causes the wreckage they leave scattered behind them.

I have to fix that need by actually healing and addressing the reasons it's there in the first place. Addressing the symptoms will never affect the cause, and the symptoms will just keep occurring.

So I shouldn't be jealous. They may have the 'superpower' of helping with their symptoms, but I now have the 'superpower' of seeing what is truly damaged with me and having the opportunity and desire to do what is needed to fix it.

[once removed]

hey homefree  

i think a lot of what plays into the quality/ability you are describing is confidence. truthfully, it does not require a truly confident person to display confidence, but its a nearly universally attractive quality. you mention low self esteem; they are not one in the same, but do you think confidence, or even "confidence" is what you might feel jealous of?

the good news is confidence is something you can grow, and practice; im not talking about learning lines from pick up artists, im talking about anything from surrounding yourself with people that love you, value you, respect you, to learning a new skill.

what might be some things you could do to build self confidence?

[thisworld]

I even knew this, and would witness it before our relationship. I just foolishly thought that she was the most herself when she was around me! 

I wrote the same thing yesterday I certainly discovered this the hard way:)) I'm even questioning what makes them "desirable". I think they "produce" desire somehow. Triangulations, putting us in situations where we are subtly threatened with loss of something we like scares us and is perceived by us as "desire." How much would I desire my partner the way I desired him if he had given his love readily and in safer circumstances, I don't know. Maybe desire would take another form, too. This thing, this desire, is produced; it is the effect of so many factors (some may even be manipulative). We are only human. But I don't think, it's my free desire actually.

[homefree]

TW: It makes total sense to me that if I had lived my entire post adolescent life with this driving need to draw relationships to feel whole and I didn't have the restraints of a sense of 'self', I would get really really good at doing it since I would be learning how to do it my whole life. Most of it I'm sure would even be subconscious.

OR: I'm trying some things. I've started pushing myself outside my comfort zone. I'm exercising regularly (I'm kind of cut now thanks to the BPD diet), I'm taking guitar lessons, improving my spanish, and have started to explore meetups around me to grow my social circle. My confidence is much greater than it was a year ago, and I'm optimistic it will get better and better in 2016. I think the reason for this thread is just that sometimes I feel like I'm doing time while my heart heals and all these other endeavors slowly develop, and I will occasionally get tired and stare out the window of my cell and wish there was another way. But it passes.   

[izabellizima]

Obviously, we need to accept that this is their playground. They have special skills in this attraction stage. But this is because they lack certain cognitive and emotional capacities that prevent them from satisfying people in the long run. So, they have developed their expertise in this initial stage. It's a tool for survival.

I think we could do it, too - maybe not as successfully in the beginning but practice makes perfect. First of, let's accept that nobody finds "them" attractive actually. Probably many people would run for the hills if they showed those problematic aspects of their "selves." I'm even thinking who is "he"? What is his "self"? he doesn't know, either. So, there is no self that attracts anyone here. There is that mirroring and we fall for what we think is there. Strategies I now see in the mirroring (maybe they were not exactly strategies for them but this is how my ex operates even if unconsciously): Come very strong on people, get rid of any idea you may have had elsewhere and fully become (like a chameleon) who you think the other person is. Expand on it. Become them more than them! At the same time, lie about your past completely and come with a victim narrative. Become the biggest victim ever and embellish it with forgiveness and compassion. Also, once you are in their place, constantly offer sexuality. Drop any dignity and walk behind people at home 24/7 with an erection, semi-erection and puppy eyes.

They are not more attractive than us, they are less. That's why they keep on hiding themselves.     

WOW, burn! Good reply.

As an experiment I would love to try this but the truth is I am a real person and I will not compromise who I am, who has time for that?

I didn't want to believe what I had read about what BPDs do to get ppl to fall for them. But I did experience it:

My ex stop shaving her legs or wearing makeup because I prefer natural looks. Later, during the breakup process she threw in my face that she'd changed for me and actually preferred shaving and was all huffy about it like I give a damn about shaving legs? Before we started dating I could tell she hardly showered, soon after we got serious she did so all the time and washed her hands constantly and even started flossing... .because, I am a nurse and I wouldn't have dealt well with poor hygiene. She did try to have sex with me all the time. Uhm, no thanks... .when the feels are not aligned and I do not feel safe, I do not put out. I hardly got laid in two years. She gave up liquor. She even quit cigarettes for a while, but she always kept a substance going and just before the breakup she started up on cigs and alcohol again, though she tried to hide it.

They really do change to meet our needs so we will meet theirs.

In summation:

Its called standards. Quality or quantity? I will take quality, thanks.

Maybe they just want a constant backup (quantity) because they know their current partner may actually get a look at the real them and that makes them panic and bail... .and need someone there constantly.

[VitaminC]

Obviously, we need to accept that this is their playground. They have special skills in this attraction stage. But this is because they lack certain cognitive and emotional capacities that prevent them from satisfying people in the long run. So, they have developed their expertise in this initial stage. It's a tool for survival.

Become the biggest victim ever and embellish it with forgiveness and compassion. Also, once you are in their place, constantly offer sexuality. Drop any dignity and walk behind people at home 24/7 with an erection, semi-erection and puppy eyes.

They are not more attractive than us, they are less. That's why they keep on hiding themselves.     

WOW, burn! Good reply.

As an experiment I would love to try this but the truth is I am a real person and I will not compromise who I am, who has time for that?

A dangerous game. I have played it, though never to the extent of a pwBPD. It's a flirting skill, easily developed. What it leads to is being pestered by someone you're not really interested in. Of course, if you don't have your own self, than that 'pestering' is something that fills a hole for a while, rather than an annoyance.  The annoyance is a healthy reaction to knowing someone is not right for you. If you have no sense of what's right for you, then you'll go with it, throw yourself into it in all kinds of intense ways and go through the cycle we all know about here.

The other person doesn't even figure as an individual in all this. BPDs don't see anyone else as a full and separate human being. They'll learn to talk as if they do, but they don't really.

My ex stop shaving her legs or wearing makeup because I prefer natural looks. Later, during the breakup process she threw in my face that she'd changed for me and actually preferred shaving and was all huffy about it like I give a damn about shaving legs? ... .She gave up liquor. She even quit cigarettes for a while, but she always kept a substance going and just before the breakup she started up on cigs and alcohol again, though she tried to hide it.

They really do change to meet our needs so we will meet theirs.

Maybe they just want a constant backup (quantity) because they know their current partner may actually get a look at the real them and that makes them panic and bail... .and need someone there constantly.

Mine also stopped shaving, dressed to please me, and aped my opinions on things.

At points of stress he would shave his facial hair, wear clothes he knew I didn't like, spout things he knew would annoy me. I am sure it was a way of asserting himself, as if he was a teenager and I his mother. Jeezus, I don't think I ever criticized things about him, just said how much I loved x, y, or z. Is it my problem that he interpreted that as an order and acted on it resentfully?

He sometimes spoke about what he thought he had brought to previous relationships. A few times he said it was his intelligence, and that beyond that there was nothing. It was one time when I called him "thick"; although, of course, I meant emotionally thick. Which he is. But much more than that. He talked about wanting to make himself useful in that way.  My heart went out to him. 

The times he acted most abominably were the times he felt he had to assert himself. Prove that he was not just following my orders.  One time when I was just looking at him lovingly in bed, he spoke about how he felt I was trying to dominate him with my gaze!

Child in adult body. Child in adult body. Child in adult body. Child in adult body. Child in adult body.

That's what we have to remember. Expect the same as you would expect from a child emotionally. Sometimes a 2 year old, sometimes a teenager. But never an adult. Except in the sexuality department. For the reasons you, and others here, point out, there is expertise here. What we interpret as true connection is only possible because of the absolute lack of self and the attunement to another that replaces the attunement to oneself.

[thisworld]

I think the reason for this thread is just that sometimes I feel like I'm doing time while my heart heals and all these other endeavors slowly develop, and I will occasionally get tired and stare out the window of my cell and wish there was another way. But it passes.   

Thank you for sharing this so openly Homefree. This happens to me, too. (Plus I'm guilty of skipping my ceramics class and table tennis sometimes, two things I started after the ex). Still, it's a beginning. I even enjoy getting tired sometimes because it gives me pleasure to look after myself the way I would look after a good friend, to pamper myself. It's like re-learning this basic thing again. With my ex, when I was tired, it was a negative feeling for me because even resting was not very peaceful. Now, though, I too see that it passes and just treat myself with kindness in that period. Being able to transform my reaction to fatigue feels good. I think we may have all neglected ourselves for a while  and now it's time to make up for it. 2016 will be much better!

[homefree]

It's funny you mention your changing opinions on being tired and how you react because I'm finding it changing for me as well. Now, when I just can't do everything I wanted for the day or I just need to do nothing, I can forgive myself, I give myself understanding and the freedom to take the time that I need. It's something new I'm experiencing. I otherwise would feel guilty or have negative self thoughts. I'm kind of just realizing that it's probably because I'm starting to learn how to love myself. It seems to be making some impact.

Here's to 2016 

[Kelli Cornett]

You attract what you feel on the inside.

[Kelli Cornett]

BPD's and narcs are very different in this way. Narc's usually end up alone because deep on the inside that is the only place they can be. They actually have nothing to real to offer anyone but a shallowy surface of "good deeds" but deep down their is nothing there. They think they are better than everyone else no one lives up to their "standards" which are literally impossible and set that way because of a subconscious desire to be alone. If they do end up married or in a long term relationship it was all going through motions to "keep up appearance" but there is actually no deep connection to anything or anyone because they are not a full human being unable to feel a whole scale of emotion.


BPD's on the other hand are an empty shell of emptiness and loneliness. They attract relationships because they need someone to constantly feel the hole because it can not be done alone. They are an open book of change and willingness to avoid that pain. Parts of those qualities would actually make for a good partner if it does done in a healthy normal messaure and there was at least a core sense of self.

[Kelli Cornett]

 

[thisworld]

BPD's and narcs are very different in this way. Narc's usually end up alone because deep on the inside that is the only place they can be. They actually have nothing to real to offer anyone but a shallowy surface of "good deeds" but deep down their is nothing there. They think they are better than everyone else no one lives up to their "standards" which are literally impossible and set that way because of a subconscious desire to be alone. If they do end up married or in a long term relationship it was all going through motions to "keep up appearance" but there is actually no deep connection to anything or anyone because they are not a full human being unable to feel a whole scale of emotion.


BPD's on the other hand are an empty shell of emptiness and loneliness. They attract relationships because they need someone to constantly feel the hole because it can not be done alone. They are an open book of change and willingness to avoid that pain. Parts of those qualities would actually make for a good partner if it does done in a healthy normal messaure and there was at least a core sense of self.

I think what makes a good partner has more to do with the expectations and boundaries of partners in a relationship as well as the dynamic, history etc between them rather than the diagnoses. In this respect, every relationship is unique and I don't think comparing NPD and BPD results in what you are saying in the case of every Non or disordered person. For one thing these are spectrum disorders. So, a mild case of NPD could offer a more satisfying relationship to some than a severe BPD. Secondly, some behaviours across Cluster B seriously overlap, so in some experiences communicating with a pwBPD is not different from that of communicating with an ASPD or NPD. The need to control in BPD can also result in sexual violence, and combine that with the impulsivity, I'd rather bed a mid-range cerebral NPD anytime - at least I wouldn't get slapped on my face out of the blue and without any BDSM consent or anything because a cerebral NPD would perhaps see this as something damaging his image and not do this. My BPD ex had strong narcissistic traits and some behaviours that felt like emotional sadism to me. What's originating from what is a big and mysterious question that he can answer only after a long therapy process and is no guide for me in a relationship. I can only look at the effects of some behaviour on myself. I also think BPD diagnosis is highly gendered. I have read so many experiences here that if I, a female, received them from a male, my T would describe it as ASPD/sociopathic. Does this make these people sociopathic? Nobody can say that for sure. But I think our only tool is our own boundaries, needs, wants, expectations.

I don't want to defend NPDs here (I have a longer history of emotional abuse from NPDs, their behaviours repulse me actually). However, describing them as not fully human but giving categorical exception to BPD does not seem very fair to me. (A BPD feels like a failed narcissist sometimes). I, personally, think along the lines that all Cluster B is inevitably human in a way that can cause great damage to other humans. But if I had a standard that helped me judge whether they are "fully human" or not, I would say that this applies to all Cluster B unfortunately.