On Monogamy and disorders

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I don't know if it's allowed to speak about this here but as I mentioned in another thread - I don't believe monogamy is natural (please don't ban me).

We live in a society that takes monogamy for granted and when things don't work out, people fall out of love, can't control their sexual desires, cheat etc - perhaps they can't handle it simply because it goes against how they have come to know the world  (we are monogamous) but it doesn't fit with their desires. They ask: Why am I not happy? Why do I want to have sex with others ? Where did the love go?

They can't answer these questions... .So they go "mad"

And in my opinion , this gap between the reality of our true nature (non monogamous) and the forced social expectations - is what creates these problems and much of what we call disorders. People who lie and cheat and act like crazy because they can't "control" themselves, when really being controlled is the unnatural condition,

Even Bill Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants. He risked everything. Nobody would argue that he's crazy.

So if Bill Clinton couldn't control it - why would your ex partner would?

Just a thought. Please don't ban me.

[NCEA]

I don't know if it's allowed to speak about this here but as I mentioned in another thread - I don't believe monogamy is natural (please don't ban me).

We live in a society that takes monogamy for granted and when things don't work out, people fall out of love, can't control their sexual desires, cheat etc - perhaps they can't handle it simply because it goes against how they have come to know the world  (we are monogamous) but it doesn't fit with their desires. They ask: Why am I not happy? Why do I want to have sex with others ? Where did the love go?

They can't answer these questions... .So they go "mad"

And in my opinion , this gap between the reality of our true nature (non monogamous) and the forced social expectations - is what creates these problems and much of what we call disorders. People who lie and cheat and act like crazy because they can't "control" themselves, when really being controlled is the unnatural condition,

Even Bill Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants. He risked everything. Nobody would argue that he's crazy.

So if Bill Clinton couldn't control it - why would your ex partner would?

Just a thought. Please don't ban me.

[NCEA]

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[blackbirdsong]

I don't know if it's allowed to speak about this here but as I mentioned in another thread - I don't believe monogamy is natural (please don't ban me).

We live in a society that takes monogamy for granted and when things don't work out, people fall out of love, can't control their sexual desires, cheat etc - perhaps they can't handle it simply because it goes against how they have come to know the world  (we are monogamous) but it doesn't fit with their desires. They ask: Why am I not happy? Why do I want to have sex with others ? Where did the love go?

They can't answer these questions... .So they go "mad"

And in my opinion , this gap between the reality of our true nature (non monogamous) and the forced social expectations - is what creates these problems and much of what we call disorders. People who lie and cheat and act like crazy because they can't "control" themselves, when really being controlled is the unnatural condition,

Even Bill Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants. He risked everything. Nobody would argue that he's crazy.

So if Bill Clinton couldn't control it - why would your ex partner would?

Just a thought. Please don't ban me.

Monogamy is a choice.

You are assuming that we are 'just an animals' but we have higher spectre of self awareness. By nature, we are also selfish (for example, read 'The selfish gene', R. Dawkins) but we can overcome this by using our will. We can fight this 'natural instinct'. This is our decision for many reasons. Nobody says that it is an easy one. Nobody says we all should be having this decision. But the people that you are mentioning, I believe that they made that decision not knowing what it actually means.

And usually people do different things that are 'bad' for them and their environment just because they don't love themselves. It is a sad statement, but many people are not happy with themselves. And this is a first and the most important precondition to be happy with someone else. No one, but you, can fill the emptiness inside you. And this is, I believe, the main reason why monogamy fails in some cases.

People chose it because they believe that their partner is the perfect match, someone who fits perfectly in their perspective, they fill some missing part in their own image. But this is an illusion that quickly goes away, so they switch to another person and 'the magic circle' continues to spin. But it is an useless search, for the soul mate... .

[NCEA]

No doubt you can chose to live against your nature. We ARE conscious. But this will result in friction. Too many indicators are showing that this friction is too high.

Sexual abuse, dysfunction, divorce rates, pornography, rape, assaults, broken homes , unhappy marriages that bring up sce-ed up kids, STDs, prostitution, the list is endless. If Hitler had more sex, probably World War II would be avoided.

Swingers are the happiest couples.

The day sex and love and marriage and all those concepts will align with our nature - friction will vanish and we will live in a much better place.

[Moselle]

I think monogamy is very natural. That's my opinion though. Two people decide to pair up for life or eternity and enjoy the bonding and positive experience of a healthy sex life together. I was married for 15 years to the same person  and really enjoyed the monogamous aspect of it and the stability it brought to a family with children.

Turns out she was a dangerous, uncooperative Borderline who has now gone hostile which was quite a surprise   I also now have my doubts about her monogamousness over those 15 years.

However that doesn't change my opinion on monogamy. I think it brings stability and I believe it is a choice.

I'm not judging here, and it may be that as you say swingers are the happiest couples. But that is in their eyes, and one person's happiness is another person's misery.

We each have the choice on where to find happiness and I quite like Blackbirdsong's assertion that happiness is something we find in ourselves first. When that is in order, we can multiply that with someone else, who is happy inside themselves too.

The dependent relationships which bring most of us here, are a function of two wounded individuals who seek happiness outside of themselves and pair up with someone who they think will compensate or fill the happiness gap inside.  It's a lesson we would do well to learn, before pairing up again.

[NCEA]

I think like 10% of people are gay, probably some people are monogamous more than others.

About "opinions" - there is literature about this subject, scientific research and evidence that you can read, but if you don't want your mind totally going down a rabbit hole than don't.

We're meant to live in small tribes where everything is shared, food, security and sex too. That's the short version.

Why do women roommates or prisoners get their periods together? 

So they can ovulate together.

Why ovulate together?

Because we used to have sex in group, so nobody knew who fathered who. It increased the chances of everybody protecting each other and helping the greater good, the survival chances of the tribe.

I can go on and on... .group sex is the most popular porn category and fantasy. Why?

I'll stop there.

[thisworld]

A very interesting topic indeed, thank you for starting this.

I don't think this website has a limiting moral attitude in regards to relationship forms. I have read lost of very informative discussions about various forms of polyamory with BPD partners, some members are in long-term polyamorous relationships (with very different forms) with their partners.

Whether monogamy is natural or not doesn't bother me much personally (I'm not against polygamy, I believe the type of relationship one wants to experience may change with each individual we meet in our lifetime, I know that open relationships based on consent don't disturb me and I'm a naturally loyal, committed person in monogamous relationships, so maybe I have more than one "nature" and I don't believe neuroscience is the only criterion as to what makes individuals happy. Or at least we should beware of social determinism. (I believe sometimes interpretations of neurosciences is a bit guilty of that). We are also cultural creatures that live with many things outside our nature. At the same time, monogamy, according to some feminist theories for instance, is a form of oppression closely tied to an economic system that ensures the transfer of what's owned to one's offspring. Basically, if your woman is monogamous, you are sure to pass your money to your own child. In western history, church plays a part in this, too. It's an artifice. However, so is work! Especially, the form of modern day work. Our stone age relatives (according to Marshall Sahlins) worked way less than us, enjoyed more security and overall lived better than us. As of today, it's again an economic lie that we need work to survive. We don't. There are valid calculations that we would all survive without work - or at least this much work actually. If we are going back to what's natural to us, I personally much prefer waged slavery to be removed from my life. I don't have any work instincts actually.

However, when you say "We live in a society that takes monogamy for granted and when things don't work out, people fall out of love, can't control their sexual desires, cheat etc - perhaps they can't handle it simply because it goes against how they have come to know the world  (we are monogamous) but it doesn't fit with their desires. They ask: Why am I not happy? Why do I want to have sex with others ? Where did the love go?

They can't answer these questions... .So they go "mad" I think we may be downplaying the causes of this "madness."

For one thing, these are not very difficult questions to answer for us today, people have been thinking about it for thousands of years and have left a legacy to us. One may well read a couple of books, preferably on choice and personal freedom as well, find out where they stand in life and go and do whatever they want basically. If they can't do this, they have much simpler problems than madness. These questions bind almost everyone, Nons experience them, too. But not all of us go "mad." So, these questions alone cannot be the basis of this madness.  Plus, not all BPDs cheat. Some are very loyal to their partners.

How I wish it was just this, so that I could have an open relationship with my BPD ex - my preferred mode at the time was FBW, but he insisted on monogamy. Like many individuals, he too was perhaps trapped between his inner needs, his conscious wishes and dictates of culture - which are not hard dictates by the way, just mainstream. I actually think, someone like my ex cannot do polygamy, he can just do cheating. This is because he is very insecure (open relationships need a lot of self confidence and trust between partners, they are in a way more difficult than monogamy) and me having other partners would drive him downright crazy, trigger abandonment fears and I'd pay for this in areas other than sexual life (now that there is freedom there). Also, with his lack of executive control, he would not be able to schedule anything properly so there would again be problems of not having the attention I needed. I think the only form of relationship that makes him happy (temporarily) would be his doing polygamy, me doing monogamy (with him) and only for a while, because that would trigger his abandonment fears and then again, I would be paying. People with BPD have a basic problem with trust, whatever the form of relationship. To test this, they would still break any boundary in a non-monogamous relationship. For some, the thrill is lost for a while, they even turn monogamous, but then the boundary testing begins. What if they want polygamy and then turn to you and say "You wanted/accepted polygamy, which means you don't love me?" The mechanism is there.

I personally would not like to be near any polyamorous BPD who has not taught much thought to these and is not in recovery because it would be very difficult to deal with their shame (again, I pay) and impulsivity. That would be my personal definition of hell on wheels. Also, I can imagine him going crazy when I ask him to use a condom with me and I'd have to as BPD males are known to engage in very unsafe sex because of the self-harm component.

IMHO, depending on where they fall on the spectrum, no return to whatever their sexual nature is saves a "relationship" with BPD, simply because we exist as separate beings and their disorder prevents them from seeing this. The moment we are not their "object", problems occur. And we happen to exist. I would again feel controlled thoroughly.

I think because they are impulsive and violate our boundaries all the time, we make the mistake of thing about them as people without boundaries. I think disordered individuals have very rigid boundaries that they force on everyone and cannot do anything outside those boundaries. I think they are kind of imprisoned in them. Freedom takes courage and responsibility. First of all, responsibility to one's self because to define your own freedom, you need a honest look inside and face your own demons. I didn't see that courage in my borderline ex. He seemed happy enough just triangulating, it didn't hurt him, it gave him pleasure, it hurt me. Freedom would hurt him. He is very aware of this. He would try and find a way to turn it into something that would control me emotionally because that need of control is as much a part  of his nature as his sexual needs - actually,  he used sex for control anyway.

[Moselle]

We're meant to live in small tribes where everything is shared, food, security and sex too. That's the short version.

This could make a lot of sense. Where adults consent, and the culture supports a harmonious, nurturing and loving group.

It would need a strong culture and an egalitarian approach to life. Unfortunately modern game theory predicts that inequalities will develop in the group.  And my practical experience of groups is that over time some will assume most of the work, others might assume most of the resources and someone is going to get jealous or upset about missing out or receiving too few of the resources. Throw one or two people with BPD into the mix and there is a recipe for real dysfunction.

So there are factors other than shared sex, which determine the success or failure of such a communal lifestyle.

I am aware of communities, where polygamy is practiced with relative success from an economic point of view. Individual interviews with participants however, show differing levels of satisfaction with such a lifestyle.

[NCEA]

My preferred relationship would be a partnership (with a bi sexual) + swinging  / sex parties - where "whatever happens in the party stays in the party". So you enjoy both worlds. Easy.

[thisworld]

My preferred relationship would be a partnership (with a bi sexual) + swinging  / sex parties - where "whatever happens in the party stays in the party". So you enjoy both worlds. Easy.

With my BPD ex, the moment you say "whatever happens in the party stays in the party" that would be a boundary, so expect to see your adventures in gmail hangouts or FB chat The guy just lied about everyone's sexual performance anyway to create this image he wanted about himself.

I think this was a very informative thread if that would be of interest.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=181763.50

[Grey Kitty]

As somebody who has been both monogamous for a couple decades and been in an open (polyamorous) relationship for several years, I've got some experience and some thoughts.

1. Choosing a single mate, and never being sexually attracted to another person (over years, decades!) might have happened once in human history... .but I'm not sure. It sure seems natural to be attracted to multiple people. I'm not 100% sure that people who have been married a decade and say that they've never been attracted to somebody else are lying, but that would be my bet!

2. Choosing to be in a monogamous relationship despite this is a valid choice, but not the only option. It works better for some people than others. Some people cannot manage more than one romantic partner at a time. Some people cannot be limited to one romantic partner at a time. Some people (like me!) can make either one work depending on circumstances.

3. I think biology/science/history does indicate that humans do not (as a rule) mate as a pair for life. Some animal species do mate for life. Others (like lions) have one male with a bunch of females. Perhaps some have one female with a bunch of males. Others (bonobos) seem to be very casual/promiscuous. We seem to be somewhere that involves being sorta-kinda-mostly monogamous.

4. I think arguments about which is better, worse, natural, or unnatural aren't very useful. What is more important is what model of relationship works for YOU and your partner(s).



Monogamy is one thing. It is understood what it means. Non-monogamy is many different things.

This link/article on the map of non-monogamy is both informative and at times hilarious (because of all the Alice and Bob and... .examples on the map) as it tries to show all the possible different ways to do non-monogamy.

www.tacit.livejournal.com/333842.html

(Aside: The author co-wrote a book on how to do polyamorous relationships, and has blogged a lot about such things. I have a lot of respect for his writings on the topic, and also his incredibly good understanding of how to employ boundaries, something I don't see often outside of places like the lessons for staying a in a r/s with a pwBPD here)



When I was in an open relationship, I was VERY aware of the cultural bias and assumption of being mongomous. I was mostly closeted about it, with some friends knowing about other relationships that I and my wife had, but my family and more friends not knowing. I have much more appreciation for how uncomfortable it would be to be a gay and closeted person. Just hearing people say random things against my lifestyle, not knowing that it was how I was living was weird. Realizing that 50~80% of the "love songs" talk about exclusivity instead of love ("I only have eyes for you", etc.) and feeling weird whenever I heard one.

If my r/s with my other partner had lasted, I probably would have "come out" more, but I broke the r/s off for other reasons before I was motivated to do so.



Then throw in mental illness / BPD. A pwBPD cannot successfully manage intimacy in a r/s with one person. When you add more people, things get more complicated. Good communication becomes MORE important. Some pwBPD will say they are "poly" or "open" when really they are just cheating on their partners.

I honestly don't think that even a high functioning pwBPD can do a non-monogamous relationship without lots of dramatic explosions... .even more than they create in a monogamous relationship.

[LostGhost]

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