Update - Pretty sure we're going back to court

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Whether we want to or not.

DH's uBPDex has been intensely triggered for about the last week. Well, from what I hear through the grapevine she has been intensely triggered much longer than that and just taking it out on the father of her youngest instead of DH and I. A couple of nights ago DH got a long ranting email hinting at court. Last night he got another long ranting email specifically saying "when we go back to court you will be found in contempt" for x, y, and z. None of which are actionable. Stuff like sending a Christmas card with our family picture on it to somebody she doesn't like.

She has also been asking the kids to take pictures around our house and her email ranted at DH that he wasn't allowed to stop them or he was in contempt. She wrote that since the order doesn't say they can't send pictures than pictures are part of the rule about texting. (Up to one half hour of texting per child per day.) And that he had no right to interpret the order to say otherwise. We simply pointed out that the order says each child is to have a phone "capable of making and receiving phone calls and text messages". So DH is perfectly within his right to provide phones that don't have cameras since that is clearly what it'll take to take the pressure off of the kids. Prior to this DH has been letting them send pictures as long as they asked first.

I think it's likely she will attempt to take us to court to get summer parenting time, as she did not ask for or receive any last summer. She also has not gone to court ordered counseling. We had jurisdiction moved from her old state to our state since she moved out of her old state and the kids live with us 95% of the year. So either she understands that and will try to move with her boyfriend back to the old state and ask the court to re-accept jurisdiction, or she doesn't understand that and thinks she can just file with the old court and we'll just go along. What she absolutely doesn't think is that she'll ultimately have to come down to us if she wants a fight.

Whatever the case, we'll have to send our L from the old state to court to fight her first filing there so that the court will be aware she can't file there. I hate spending money for no reason.

[Nope]

Whether we want to or not.

DH's uBPDex has been intensely triggered for about the last week. Well, from what I hear through the grapevine she has been intensely triggered much longer than that and just taking it out on the father of her youngest instead of DH and I. A couple of nights ago DH got a long ranting email hinting at court. Last night he got another long ranting email specifically saying "when we go back to court you will be found in contempt" for x, y, and z. None of which are actionable. Stuff like sending a Christmas card with our family picture on it to somebody she doesn't like.

She has also been asking the kids to take pictures around our house and her email ranted at DH that he wasn't allowed to stop them or he was in contempt. She wrote that since the order doesn't say they can't send pictures than pictures are part of the rule about texting. (Up to one half hour of texting per child per day.) And that he had no right to interpret the order to say otherwise. We simply pointed out that the order says each child is to have a phone "capable of making and receiving phone calls and text messages". So DH is perfectly within his right to provide phones that don't have cameras since that is clearly what it'll take to take the pressure off of the kids. Prior to this DH has been letting them send pictures as long as they asked first.

I think it's likely she will attempt to take us to court to get summer parenting time, as she did not ask for or receive any last summer. She also has not gone to court ordered counseling. We had jurisdiction moved from her old state to our state since she moved out of her old state and the kids live with us 95% of the year. So either she understands that and will try to move with her boyfriend back to the old state and ask the court to re-accept jurisdiction, or she doesn't understand that and thinks she can just file with the old court and we'll just go along. What she absolutely doesn't think is that she'll ultimately have to come down to us if she wants a fight.

Whatever the case, we'll have to send our L from the old state to court to fight her first filing there so that the court will be aware she can't file there. I hate spending money for no reason.

[david]

My ex threatens me with court a lot. I found that completely ignoring it is the best course of action. Engaging in any way usually winds up with her actually following through.

[ForeverDad]

Well, it is holiday season after all, massive trigger time.

I would figure that the court would respectfully decline to seek to recover jurisdiction.  They're probably overjoyed she's not in their hair anymore.

Yes, keep an eye on the court dockets that had or have jurisdiction but probably nothing to do until she actually files something.

[Nope]

David - She doesn't change course no matter what our reaction is. However, she does do us the favor of broadcasting her entire playbook beforehand. Her boyfriend's parents have money and if they bought her story they might be willing to financially back her in this. All she needs to go to court is someone else's pocketbook. Having that is enough of an excuse.

FD - That is an excellent point. If she tried to do something without properly informing us the court docket would be our best bet for finding that out before it happens. You are amazingly helpful as always.

[david]

Perhaps you can show a trail of previous frivolous trips to court and ask for damages. I don't know if you can do that and the likelihood of being successful. That is something an attorney should know.

I get the frustration of constantly going to court ($$$) I stopped counting after $70,000.

The thing that stopped my ex was that she started losing so she wasn't getting the same satisfaction as in the beginning. I learned how the "game" was played in my county. I needed overwhelming evidence to show what was going on and I needed a solution that our courts liked. I avoided disparaging ex and let the courts figure that out on their own. That was what the overwhelming evidence accomplished.

[ForeverDad]

Sanctions awarded are far and few between.  Many motions list them, generally ignored by the court.  (And a risk to us if we lose.)  Usually the law states jail or fine but courts are reluctant to do that to parents, especially mothers and even more so for mothers professing poverty.  If you do ask for sanctions then posing the beneficiaries as the kids is probably a smart strategy, such as the money going into the children's education accounts.  That way it's not quite "one parent wins, the other parent loses".

[Nope]

Actually she's never taken DH to court. DH had to drag her in to get a parenting plan when she refused to let him see or speak to their kids for more than a year. Then he dragged her in again for contempt when she repeatedly violated the plan. Then he dragged her in to get a GAL appointed. Then dragged her in to get custody. She has actually never "won" in court. But obstruction and continuances made all of that take several years. She used to threaten DH with court all of the time and always used to tell him he was in contempt for a million different things. Since losing the kids she stopped doing that until this string of emails.

The current order does not guarantee her any summer parenting time. It says she must work it out with DH if she wants to see the kids during the summer. Last year she didn't even ask so she didn't see them. I think if she was going to take us to court for anything real it would be to get some mandatory time in the summer.

[david]

"The current order does not guarantee her any summer parenting time. It says she must work it out... ." She didn't ask for any time so that is on her.

"I think if she was going to take us to court for anything real it would be to get some mandatory time in the summer."

Again, the fact she never asked last year is on her.

The fact that she hasn't gone to court ordered counseling is something I would make as a boundary since the court already did that. If she takes you to court that would be the point I would make central to any adjustments. She needs to do what the court said before anything else can be resolved. If you let that one go the court will figure you are okay with what she has done and may let it go too.

"Since losing the kids she stopped doing that until this string of emails."

For whatever reason, it appears she is looking for engagement. When my ex does something like this I have found that no engagement from me minimizes conflict. The more I respond the more ammunition she finds to continue engagement.

I have come to the conclusion that my ex has a very limited number of behaviors when she is stressed/triggered/etc. and repeats the same behaviors over and over.

[Nope]

"The current order does not guarantee her any summer parenting time. It says she must work it out... ." She didn't ask for any time so that is on her.

I agree whole completely. SS11's T asked us if next summer we could broach the subject with the BPDm instead of waiting for her to take the lead or not. I didn't show it on the outside but I kind of got mad about that. Since the woman won't go to the court ordered counseling it seems wrong to me that we should have to go out of our way to offer her parenting time. But she feels that more time with SS11's mom will help him work out some of the stuff going on in his head, even if his mom won't get help. Especially since the BPDm is supposed to have once per month visitation in our state but refuses to make the trip. So here we are left bending and bending... .

The more I think about it the more you may be right that it'll probably blow over. The kids seem to know there mom i s on a tear and SD12 even said the best thing to do is do nothing because anything we do about it will just make her act worse. (Huge insight coming from her!)

Funny thing is we do plan to take her to court in the coming months. There is a clause in the order regarding phone calls that has been a major point of contention. Essentially the rules about texting and phone calls are literally the only thing she has left to abuse us with and she gets the opportunity to do it three mandated times per week. So naturally, we want the current situation replaced with "The children and both parents can contact each other any time they want. The children shall be instructed to return missed calls when they occur." I have to remember that these emails where she's losing it are actually great evidence that'll help with that goal.

[david]

Instead of going back to court (money) is there a way to accomplish that without court ? I have found that thinking it through in various ways I am sometimes able to find another way. Usually it involves getting my ex to think it is her idea. I send an email with a bunch of "breadcrumbs" and let ex put it together. She then makes it her idea and sends me an email. I then agree with her idea. I can't do it often and it takes practice to get it right. I haven't done this in years and can't think of a good example right now.

About S11's T. Sounds like T is using a logical approach and that probably won't work with BPDm. I think the question that needs to be answered ( by the T) is why did the judge order counseling for BPDm ? I assume it is for the best interest of the children and the judge doesn't think BPDm can do it on her own. If that is the case then the kids should not be subjected to BPDm until she abides by the order. The judge can be blamed for S11 not seeing BPDm at this point. The judge ordered counseling and until BPDm follows the order she is not allowed to visit. You and DH don't want BPDm to get in trouble with the law.

In the beginning my ex used serious alienation tactics against me. I simply told our boys that the court order says xyz and that if mom or me doesn't follow it we could get in trouble and I didn't want that for either of us. They were 4 and 8 at the time and this was a satisfactory answer for them.

Bpdm needs to prove to the courts that DH is restricting her from seeing the kids in the summer. Where did he tell BPDm no. He didn't. Bpdm never asked. Doesn't sound very convincing that she wants to see the kids yet never asked. On top of that she hasn't gone to the court ordered counseling.

[Nope]

The BPD mom isn't smart. I'm not trying to be mean about it but there have been lots of times where she hasn't been in a rage of distorted thinking and has had to have some very simple things spelled out for her. She has no understanding of nuances or turns of phrase. It's very much like dealing with a young child with no grasp of the adult world. I told my T yesterday that  it's like trying to parent with a toddler in every possible way. So leaving subtle bread crumbs won't work. Plus she knows if she can't use the phone calls to rage at DH then she won't have anything to use.

The way I see it is that we can file in court for two things (the phone call issue and a show cause motion for why she isn't going to counseling). She is likely to not want to deal with it and since she won't come down here to see the kids in our state she likely won't show up to court to fight so we'll get what we want by default.

... .Or

We throw the book at her. Contempt of the order by using the calls in a manipulative manner which can be proven through emails she's sent later about her calls, show cause for not going to counseling with possibly the penalty of no out-of-state parenting time until she complies, contempt for not paying her portion of the kids medical bills, and a request to revisit the Child Support order. THEN we tell her that if she'll agree to the change about the calls we'll drop everything else.

In scenario one we have to go to court but it'll be quick and painless. In scenario two she either gives us one simple thing or comes down to court for a fight that'll cost her a lot more than it'll cost us since now jurisdiction is moved. Or she won't show up and then we get everything by default. My fear about #2 is that she'll actually make us go with the nuclear option.

Back when we first went to court up in her state DH was told by a mediator that there was no way he would get custody so he needed to think about what he was willing to accept to not drop the custody suit. He came back saying he wanted the meeting spot for exchanges to be half way rather than him driving two thirds, he wanted more then one mandated phone call a week because she'd only give him the minimum, and he wanted eight weeks during the summer instead of six. She said no, we got a GAL and went to court, she lost physical custody. So she's clearly willing to watch her own world burn before she'll give an inch.

I think it was Bill Eddy who said, "They aren't just difficult people, they are the most difficult people."

[DreamGirl]

Do you want to go back to court?

[david]

The BPDm isn't smart.

When we first separated (2007) ex was supposed to drop our boys off at 7 pm. I was in the basement and I heard my phone ring upstairs. I went up around 10 minutes later because I thought it was ex calling. She left a voicemail saying the boys would be late because of blah, blah, blah... .I called back and she picked up on the first ring. She started talking and I immediately stopped her and said in a firm voice as if I was talking to a child, "Young lady you are to bring the boys home by 7 pm or you will be in biiig trouble. Do you understand me ?" She hung up right away. It was around 6:50 pm at the time. The boys walked into the house at 6:59 pm. I couldn't believe it but it worked. I felt bad about treating her that way and could never do that again. I don't even talk to our kids that way. I don't know why I did it but it struck me at the time.

Another time the boys had a class trip hiking a part of the Appalachian trail. It was during her custodial time. I knew the boys wanted to go so I sent an email to ex saying that the boys were looking forward to going on the hike. I then went on about how delicate she was and that the trail required lots of climbing, etc. We had done it the year before and it was about 12 miles. I offered to take them if she felt that was okay. The way I worded it would have been insulting to most people but I figured it would play on her waif/victim view of herself. She gave me the entire weekend without asking for make up time.

It is different talking to my ex (email only) then anyone else I have ever dealt with.

If I think of any better examples I'll let you know.

[Nope]

Do you want to go back to court?

What I *want* is L&L's deal. I want to push her hard enough that DH ends up with full custody and the BPDm ends up with no visitation until she does what the court requires. Because, much like in that case, she won't. As L&L has said, for the kids this is just trading one kind of emotional damage for another, but if there must be emotional damage either way why not at least have the kind that allows us to get these kids raised up in a much less stressed out environment.

What I will settle for is having the phone call clause in the order changed so that they can call her when they want and she can call them when she wants with no ability for her to sit there and psychologically nickle and dime us about what she's entitled to if we want to avoid being found in contempt. So yeah, I guess I do want to go back to court, but on our terms and not hers. Because when she's found in contempt she gets a slap on the wrist and a $600 fine. If DH is ever found in contempt he'd likely be made to pay her full court costs.

Every single week she gets three opportunities to stop us from having peace in our home. If the call is ten minutes late she makes threats. If she doesn't answer the phone on time and we don't hold off on serving dinner and it causes her to have to wait until after to talk to them when she does call back she makes threats, she sends DH nasty texts and inflammatory emails, and then she screams at the kids and finds hoops to make them jump through to prove themselves to her. She makes wild accusations that we do what she actually does. Example: The order says the kids should feel like they can have privacy to talk to either parent so she makes them go to their rooms and close the door when she is on the phone with them but still stands right over them if they are with her and they have a call with their dad and then writes emails accusing DH of not giving the kids space during calls and more threats of contempt. She makes up stories that the kids would call her and text her more often but they said DH won't let them. Sometimes when the kids call she just doesn't answer and never calls back and the kids cry because they feel unimportant and rejected. Sometimes she leaves us out of her calls all together and just works them over so they come out of their rooms looking completely emotionally beat up but won't say why. And when we have to change the call times because of the kid's schedules we have to email her ahead of time and then she writes back long nasty emails about how continually changing the call time is contempt. But when she wants to change a call time she just texts the kids and tells them she'll call when she's available. She may not have a meltdown all three times in a week but every single time she is due for a mandated call it could be the prelude to the next meltdown for which we have to deal with the fallout.


David - I think you can probably see from my paragraph above that the BPD I'm dealing with has few Waif tendencies though she does believe she is everyone's victim. She is Queen with possibly some Witch tendencies when it comes to her scapegoat child.