Help with gaslighting needed

[Sea Holly]

Hi, this is my first post  , and I'm hoping to get some help with moving forward with my uBPD/NPD mother (just checking, does the 'u' mean undiagnosed?)

M has been challenging all my life. She physically and emotionally abused, and emotionally neglected me, following divorce of my parents when I was very young. The emotional abuse has continued - but subtly - throughout my adult life (I'm 47). Mostly minor things that have eroded my self esteem, such as criticism, showing no interest in my life/achievements, silent disapproval and triangulation. Nothing major, all things I could cope with, so we were able to have a civil relationship.

But the past 18 months she has become really difficult. She has expectations of how I should behave (e.g. I should ring her everyday) but never actually tells me what they are - so I have to guess, and if I get it wrong she holds it against me. She uses emotional blackmail and induces guilt to get her own way. She is controlling and manipulative.

I was NC with her through much of last year after she slammed the phone down on me and told me she didn't want me in her life any more (second time she's done this to me - first time it was a toxic farewell letter). I was relieved, to be honest, to have a break from her. After two months of not hearing from her, she rang me up and hurled insults and abuse at me for 3 hours. I then didn't hear from her for the rest of the year. During this time my father died - but she sent no condolences.

She got back in touch with me just before Christmas to tell me she was having an operation. No mention of what had happened during the year, or of my dad's death. Following that call I sent her an email, wishing her well for her surgery, but pointing out that things weren't right between us, and that I couldn't support her until she apologised for the way she'd behaved towards me. (Don't know if that was the right thing to do, but I needed to say it for my own sake, at least)

She's now had the operation and I rang today to see how she was. During the call she said she was sorry for what happened last year. And then she started saying how she'd phoned up and apologised after she slammed the phone down - this never happened. She also said that she had no memory at all of the 3-hour call when she called me names - I told her some of the things she'd said, and she just kept saying "I would never say that!" and "I don't even know what that means!". We then stumbled into talking about how things were when I was a child (I really didn't want to discuss this with her, but she seems to be able to suck me into unpleasant conversations). She denied outright that she had ever hit me, and seemed completely horrified that I could even suggest it.

Have other people had similar experiences? Should I try and talk to her about the things she did to me when I was a child (some of them quite horrible)? She's been quite ill and I don't want to upset her, but I've had some PTSD symptoms from some of my childhood experiences, and confronting her could help me. During the past year she has alienated me from much of my family (I live a long way away) - and I now realise she has been telling everyone how heartless I am because she's tried to apologise and I won't forgive her!

Also I'm wondering about following up today's call with an short email summarising the main points of the conversation. She has the ability to get the wrong end of the stick, add 2+2 to get 5, and completely twist my words - so she will tell a totally different story to what I've actually said. Is an email a really bad idea?

Sorry about this REALLY LONG post! I'm trying to make tentative steps towards having contact with my mother again - and an apology from her is a good first step - but I am struggling how to take it forwards/forgive her, when she can't even remember the things that she's done that have hurt me. 

[MoreGuilt]

I can relate.  My uBPDm cannot seem to remember terrible events either.  When I have confronted her with past abuses, she has denied everything and then turned to raging.  Personally, I would not confront her.  It seems to be part of the illness not to remember and not to take responsibility for any wrongdoing. 

For me reading about boundaries and implementing them has been very helpful in stopping the ongoing abuse.  I hope others can give clearer guidance since I am very new to this board this myself. 

[Turkish]

Hi Sea Holly,

Gaslighting by definition is a cold, caluculating and deliberate plan to manipulate another. Nit to say that it doesn't happen, but for people with BPD (who often dissociate from reality to cope), it's more of an organic dysfunctional copining mechanism. An example from my BPD other would be the time when I was a teen and she was raging on me so badly that I fell to the ground and had a seizure. Decades later, she said, "that was a time when I may have crossed over into abuse." No other times, nor the time when I was 13 when she almost sent me into a coma from heatstroke due to her severe dysregulation at the time. With my uBPDx (yes, the "u" stands for "u diagnosed" I have many examples.

Does it help to say that what they believe are their realities? Some of it may be Minimization, while others may indeed be dissociation, perhaps driven by shame, even if they don't admit it. pwBPD seek to control the external because they can't control their emotions. It's easier to project and even blame-shift rather than looking inward. Not being able to change them, we are left with dealing with how we react and feel. We're left with, "this is who they are," (radical acceptance), which leaves us with who we are, and how do we live by our own values for ourselves?

[Sea Holly]

Thanks Turkish, that makes it a lot clearer!

for people with BPD (who often dissociate from reality to cope), it's more of an organic dysfunctional copining mechanism.

I think that hits the nail on the head for my uBPDm - in her own eyes she is/has been a perfect mother, and she can't cope with the thought of anything else. So anything that doesn't fit with her world-view has to be changed, rewritten or forgotten.

I'm now working on trying to stop trying to understand why she does this (the short answer is, she can't help it, she's sick) - I think this is the "radical acceptance" you mention! Also trying to minimise how much impact her behaviour has on me, on my feelings and self-esteem. This seems to be an ongoing struggle, but I'm hoping this forum and some of the information about how to deal with BPD will help.

[busybee1116]

Hi Sea Holly,

My mother can't remember/dissociates under extreme stress. So I get to hear/remember the awfulness and she's conveniently off in some other plane. It's IMO pointless to confront, make a timeline, summarize a previous conversation, remind her what happened--because in her mind/memory, it just didn't happen. And here you are, reminding her what happened by telling her horrible and awful things about her that she said and did (that are TRUE but that is beside the point)--it just confirms in her mind that you don't like her/she is worthless/triggers her abandonment fears. It gets into that dance and a weird form of triangulation. It's you against the woman in front of you who can't believe you'd say such things about her and the woman who actually did all those awful things.  

I get the impression she's also a ME ME ME kind of person (as most pwBPD are). If you had talked to her when your dad died, invariably the conversation would have turned to how awful she feels. Or how awful he was to her. Or how you should appreciate the alive mother you have instead of the dead father you don't. Or some other terrible conversation. I guess what I'm getting at is you seem to hope she will somehow come to her senses and realize--Oh, I did hit you. I'm sorry. I was an awful parent and I'm sorry I hurt you. Oh, I didn't call you after your father died. How unfeeling. Oh, you are right--I did say those things. I still get hooked into that idealized image I have of my family. It's hard not to want and wish for a better parent. I'm also in my 40s and when I think about that, it's sad but also I'm old enough now to realize I'm not going to get what I want/need from her and I have ample proof over and over that she is incapable of giving it to me. It's like going to a bagel shop daily and looking at the menu for a croissant--I'm never going to get a croissant there. Yet I keep going, hoping.  

It sounds like you either have no contact or full contact. When she called and raged at you for 3 hours--could you have ended the call sooner? Say at the 10 minute mark and not the 3 hour mark?   Is there some middle ground you can go to?

[Sea Holly]

Hi Busybee, thanks for your advice. I had come to the conclusion that an email summarising what's been said on the phone was probably a waste of time! And for her it will just be like a criticism/attack, even if I didn't intend it to be.

I get the impression she's also a ME ME ME kind of person (as most pwBPD are). If you had talked to her when your dad died, invariably the conversation would have turned to how awful she feels. Or how awful he was to her. Or how you should appreciate the alive mother you have instead of the dead father you don't. Or some other terrible conversation.

In fact this is exactly what happened in my last call to her.  I mentioned my dad's death and she launched straight into how upset she had been when my dad died, after all she had once been married to him, then went on to ask what about my stepdad (who is still alive)? Hasn't he been a wonderful father to me? This is the type of response I'm still trying to come to terms with, and learn how to handle.

It sounds like you either have no contact or full contact. When she called and raged at you for 3 hours--could you have ended the call sooner? Say at the 10 minute mark and not the 3 hour mark?  Is there some middle ground you can go to?

The 3 hour call was the first time she's ever really done anything like that (before that it was just low level NPD type behaviour). At the time I didn't know anything about BPD or how to handle it - although I had already worked out that she may have NPD. So during the call I was still treating her as though she was a normal, rational person and trying to discuss the situation with her in a calm and logical way. It was during that phone call that the realisation hit me that there was something very wrong - it was insane and chaotic. She basically attacked every single aspect of my life (my job, kids, husband, house, lifestyle choices) in a vile and vitriolic way. I'm pretty sure she had rehearsed some of the names she called me - it was as though she had a checklist of all the horrible things she wanted to say. Afterwards I felt really awful - why had I allowed her to do that to me? I felt just like I had when I was a kid and she had abused me.

So now that she's made contact with me again, I've resolved to keep conversations short - even had some little phrases prepared, "oh, the dog's just thrown up/someone's at the door, gotta go," etc - but how do you do that when she's sobbing down the phone and telling you how awful her life is? I do want to find some middle ground, with limited contact, but I'm still not sure how to do it!

[Sea Holly]

Hello again Busybee,

I've only just noticed the Lessons sections on this page. Doh!

I've started to read through them and can see there will be lots of useful suggestions and ideas for dealing with the problems I've been having! 

[MoreGuilt]

FWIW, What is working for me right now is limiting contact to email or letters only.  I won't answer the phone, but may send an email reply after I "missed" the call.  I am also not ready to visit in person again, but I live far enough away to be too busy to travel.  

[busybee1116]

Hello again Busybee,

I've only just noticed the Lessons sections on this page. Doh!

I've started to read through them and can see there will be lots of useful suggestions and ideas for dealing with the problems I've been having!  

Oh, I have no advice for the sobbing... .I try and avoid any topic that can get to crying. Ditto MoreGuilt--I also email much more than we talk on the phone. Seems like frequent but BRIEF and BIFFy check-in emailis head off the awful phone calls. Sometimes the notes are just a picture (of a bird at my feeder, sunset, something I found online, a joke) and one line. maybe 1-3x per week, depends what's going on. I sent her 3 3-4 sentence paragraphs last night--that was a long one!

[Turkish]

Oh, I have no advice for the sobbing... .I try and avoid any topic that can get to crying. Ditto MoreGuilt--I also email much more than we talk on the phone. Seems like frequent but BRIEF and BIFFy check-in emailis head off the awful phone calls. Sometimes the notes are just a picture (of a bird at my feeder, sunset, something I found online, a joke) and one line. maybe 1-3x per week, depends what's going on. I sent her 3 3-4 sentence paragraphs last night--that was a long one!

My therapist's version of BIFF: "No."

I guess that's BIF 

[Pilpel]

Have other people had similar experiences?

Despite the fact that the BPD in my life is my Sister-in-law, I have had very similar experiences.  

Anyhow, I would recommend against writing a letter detailing past grievances.  At least depending on what you want to get out of it.  If it's just for your sake to get it out there, then fine.  But if you're doing it in the hopes of getting her to acknowledge reality, then that'll be a lost cause, and will only lead to more frustration.  When I've tried to straighten out facts --or did any JADEing, it just goes around in circles, and my BPD SIL will keep twisting facts around.  It's lying.  Yet at the same time, I think things like facts, truth, and reality are kind of meaningless to a BPD.  Boundaries have some meaning.  But even then, with a BPD, who is always making their own reality boundaries can be tricky, too.  

Pilpel

[Leda]

Have other people had similar experiences? Should I try and talk to her about the things she did to me when I was a child (some of them quite horrible)? She's been quite ill and I don't want to upset her, but I've had some PTSD symptoms from some of my childhood experiences, and confronting her could help me.

I am new to the board and reading so many of these posts and I'd swear so many of us have the same mother.  It is so much less alienating to see others have these same experiences, but I wish our realities were a lot different.  We certainly deserved better. 

To answer your question, yes, what you are summarizing sounds very much like my experiences with my own mother.  She will say the most wretched things to me ("I should have aborted you like everyone told me to", "I hate the day you were born", etc etc etc).  I've confronted her in the past but she either denies she said something or other, or she actually has seemingly completely forgotten and is horrified that she'd ever say something like that.  Just like what you've described.  It's really not fair that they get to just forget the vitriol while we live with the words the rest of our lives. 

I agree with what another said about not confronting.  In my own experience, I have never found that to be helpful or healing.  When I've tried in the past, my mother starts to dig in her own bag and pull out issues and instances that just completely pail in comparison to neglect or abuse and it's like trying to one up each other with bad memories.  It just spins the tires and leaves me emotionally exhausted and frustrated.  Confrontation is usually met with confrontation and I've never personally seen it aid in long term resolution.

I'm very sorry for your experiences and especially sorry to read about the loss of your dad.  That is a hard road and my heart really goes out to you.

Warmth to you,

Leda

[Sea Holly]

Thanks for all the advice here, much appreciated. Now realising that any sort of confrontation or challenge is a waste of time.

In fact I've not contacted her at all since the last crazy phonecall last month. I've had this ongoing conflict of what feels like the right thing to do (I should call her, she's not been well) against what I actually feel able to cope with. And I don't feel able to cope with her at all just now. So I haven't called - and she hasn't called me.

I think the way to go, if I'm to maintain minimal contact, is to try a mostly email correspondence - thanks for that suggestion BusyBee. I'm just concentrating on getting myself good and strong first though. I suspect that even a BIFFy email exchange has the potential to mess with my head, so I want to be prepared!

Thank you Leda for your kind and supportive words  I'm so sorry you are going through similar experiences with your own mother. Vitriol is exactly the right word to describe what they thow at us!

Xx

[busybee1116]

Take your time. Really.