They can feel remorse? Shame?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Since I'm engaged in NC, I've asked myself if in some level he feels some remorse, or if he feels ashamed.

.In the end, all discussions were entirely 'my fault'. He never had self-criticism to realize how his behaviour was making everything worse. He always accused me of manipulating, of being selfish, and so many times I was accused of dont trust him... .

Since now its over and he hasnt tried to contact me again, I felt I was simply discarded, even if he knows I was right the two last times I tried to fix te relationship (ofc, he said it was my alut, I was being selfish, I was manpulating the situation... .)

I just wanted some consideration for the years we spent together. Just wanted to know this is not suck kind of ass. Unfortunately, I guess he's also too busy thinking abot his own pleasure to take care of people who loved him... .


What you think? They can at least feel remorseful, even if they dont express it? Or they simply erase us from their minds on a easy way?

[SybilVane]

Since I'm engaged in NC, I've asked myself if in some level he feels some remorse, or if he feels ashamed.

.In the end, all discussions were entirely 'my fault'. He never had self-criticism to realize how his behaviour was making everything worse. He always accused me of manipulating, of being selfish, and so many times I was accused of dont trust him... .

Since now its over and he hasnt tried to contact me again, I felt I was simply discarded, even if he knows I was right the two last times I tried to fix te relationship (ofc, he said it was my alut, I was being selfish, I was manpulating the situation... .)

I just wanted some consideration for the years we spent together. Just wanted to know this is not suck kind of ass. Unfortunately, I guess he's also too busy thinking abot his own pleasure to take care of people who loved him... .


What you think? They can at least feel remorseful, even if they dont express it? Or they simply erase us from their minds on a easy way?

[Rmbrworst]

What you think? They can at least feel remorseful, even if they dont express it? Or they simply erase us from their minds on a easy way?

If we are generalizing, I think they feel remorseful in a childish way.  I do not know how else to say it, it's too hard to put into words.  As far as erasing us from their minds, I have noticed they love to totally push you away so they do not even have to deal with thinking of you, so that they can move on very quickly.

However I dont think it's an inability to feel or process . . . I think it's the unWILLINGNESS . . . to put themselves through the pain that comes with taking responsibility for their actions and recognizing their actions can hurt other people.  

At least for my ex BPD partner, I think he did truly feel shame and regret.  He told me once "The shame mixes with the guilt, and the guilt mixes with regret, and I cannot handle it."   He was referencing why he was breaking up with me, and how he couldn't stand the pain he put me in, and the turmoil it causes within both of us.  So the fact that he can recognize this and understand it means to me that they process emotions and understand them . . . but in a very negative way that's different to others.

Of course everyone is different and every BPD person is different so there's probably tons of variants

[Itstopsnow]

I think they run from it . That's why you don't hear from them. Into other relationships and they keep running. This disorder is a shame based one for them. But it should be, I mean really look how they conduct themselves. They cause their own Shame! You might hear back one day with some sort of meaningless apology and hoping you'll take the bait want to try a recycle again. If you said yes, the past I'm sure won't be allowed to be brought up . And it would repeat . They know what they do is wrong but they don't sit long enough with the feelings and thoughts of it to really process it and accept responsibility for it. It's easier to make it be your fault. They are toxic and it's a dead end street with them

[Jazzy]

I doubt they feel any remorse or guilt. After my bf  of 6 years replaced and discarded me he was so mean , evil and cruel to me that I had to go NC to protect myself. That was 3 months ago. Not  once has he contacted me to apologise for the way he has destroyed me .When I saw his pictures with my replacement , I see how happy he looks. He is not one bit ashamed of what he put me through or even bothered to look back to see how I am surviving.

[Jazzy]

Itstopnow,

I agree that they"run into other relationships" to avoid feeling the shame. When they are in the idealization phase with their new victims ,  they  do not feel  any pangs of guilt or shame  that a normal person would feel .They are too busy trying to lure the new person into their  trap to remember the carnage  , destruction and devastation they have left behind.

[GreenEyedMonster]

There are two layers to shame with a pwBPD.  There are his or her true feelings, and the defense mechanisms they use to block it out.

You will probably only ever see the defense mechanisms.  Google it for a list.  Things like denial, compartmentalization, rationalization, splitting, projecting, and even delusion are par for the course.  These are the behaviors you will see if the pwBPD is cornered and needs to take responsibility.  For example, my exBPD is probably deeply ashamed of how he bailed on me without a second thought, but he has developed a delusion that I am a psycho-stalker so that it is all justified in his mind.  You HAVE to mercilessly dump a stalker, right?  Also, view the thread on the addiction metaphor started by thisworld.  She has some insightful things to say about this as well.

Somewhere underneath all the defense mechanisms, pwBPD feel shame, and they feel it much more deeply than you and I do.  The shame they feel makes them feel worthless and suicidal.  It is so intense that their brains have to block it out for their survival.  It is not the kind of guilt or shame that you can process, learn from, and become a better person.  Nons look at our mistakes and proactively say, "What can I do better next time?"  People with BPD and other personality disorders look at their mistakes and say, "That's proof that I'm a worthless, horrible person."  Hence the defense mechanisms.

That's why if you are looking to heal and move on, hoping for your pwBPD to "get it," admit their shame, and apologize is going to be a long wait.  The moments that they can process this kind of thing are few and far between.

[MakingMyWay]

My ex felt immense guilt, but she was a waif and was self hating so it made sense that she did. She'd often feel guilt for no reason or for a misreading of my emotions.

[Bigmd]

Well from experience I think they just put us out of their mind. My exgf broke up with me suddenly in July. 3 months later I texted her and she told me she does not even think about "us" anymore and she's shut the door . How's that for 6 years of my life.

[Dutched]

There are two layers to shame with a pwBPD.  There are his or her true feelings, and the defense mechanisms they use to block it out.

You will probably only ever see the defense mechanisms.  Google it for a list.  Things like denial, compartmentalization, rationalization, splitting, projecting, and even delusion are par for the course.  These are the behaviors you will see if the pwBPD is cornered and needs to take responsibility. 

Somewhere underneath all the defense mechanisms, pwBPD feel shame, and they feel it much more deeply than you and I do.  The shame they feel makes them feel worthless and suicidal.  It is so intense that their brains have to block it out for their survival.  It is not the kind of guilt or shame that you can process, learn from, and become a better person.  Nons look at our mistakes and proactively say, "What can I do better next time?"  People with BPD and other personality disorders look at their mistakes and say, "That's proof that I'm a worthless, horrible person."  Hence the defense mechanisms.

That's why if you are looking to heal and move on, hoping for your pwBPD to "get it," admit their shame, and apologize is going to be a long wait.  The moments that they can process this kind of thing are few and far between.

You are spot on GreenEyed Monster

[Dutched]

I doubt they feel any remorse or guilt. After my bf  of 6 years replaced and discarded me he was so mean , evil and cruel to me that I had to go NC to protect myself. That was 3 months ago. Not  once has he contacted me to apologise for the way he has destroyed me .When I saw his pictures with my replacement , I see how happy he looks. He is not one bit ashamed of what he put me through or even bothered to look back to see how I am surviving.

Jazzy, I understand your disbelief of how your ex discarded you.

It is cruel, it is beyond any believe, but Please read GreenEyedMonster ‘s  post again.

It doesn’t ease any pain, yet. Understanding of what happened is for your rational mind for now, later your emotional mind (your hart) catches up. It takes time and effort, a lot of both as we see on the board.

For a person suffering BPD feelings hurt.

               A pwBPD does not avoid feelings, pwBPD avoid the hurt a feeling causes.

As Marsha Linehan describes:

“People with BPD are like people with third degree burns over 90 percent of their body. Lacking emotional skin, they feel agony at the slightest touch or movement “.

 

So Guilt/Remorse?

To understand remorse, we have to go back a stage earlier in our emotional existence.

Before remorse there is shame. Shame the most primitive feeling anyone has, not controllable what ever you try!

How can you show guilt/remorse when you are captured in deep shame (continuing as if nothing happened is expressing avoidance, avoidance to be confronted with the one who made me shame).

As for every 'normal' person, the next stages are guilt and remorse.

Guilt to acknowledge and change behaviour, remorse the temporarily burden one carries.

However for pwBPD the next stage, to guilt and remorse, is merely unreachable.

When we go back to kindergarten age what do we see? Kids quarrel and with all persistency saying never to play with the other again… hours later… they play again.

What behaviour do parents see when a biscuit/cookie is missing, addressing it and even see the crumbles? Shame in the denial mode.

Going to the core, the reaction of that kid and pwBPD are comparable. 

[GreenEyedMonster]

For a child, or even for adults, shame/guilt/remorse serve an important social function.  We live in a very individualistic society, but you don't have to go back very far in time to find that humans were very reliant on one another.  Rules, respect, and social institutions played an important role in keeping individuals from sabotaging the welfare of the group.  Things like not stealing, not taking more than your share, doing work for what you take, showing respect for elders, and keeping promises were not just niceties, they were matters of SURVIVAL.

A small, interdependent society can't afford to have a rogue who is going to burn down the grain stores or steal it all and run.  Shame is the brain's way of telling that individual (after they have been disciplined) that their life may be on the line if they keep it up, that their behavior has put them in a dire situation.  Rejection from a group could equal death.  Correct behavior equates to acceptance into the group and SURVIVAL.  pwBPD have this instinct turned up a few notches too high.  When you shame them, this sense of dire consequences is very immediate and distressing.  They feel that sense of rejection from the group that in previous centuries would have meant ostracism, starvation, and death.  Covering up one's misdeeds and showing allegiance to group norms is a survival instinct.

This is why kids lie about things like stealing.  They want that sense of BELONGING with their family and their parents, and they know that their crimes could result in some sort of separation.  pwBPD are essentially the same way -- they see the consequences of their actions in very severe terms, so you can hardly blame them for acting the way they do.

[GoingBack2OC]

I think they run from it . That's why you don't hear from them. Into other relationships and they keep running. This disorder is a shame based one for them. But it should be, I mean really look how they conduct themselves. They cause their own Shame! You might hear back one day with some sort of meaningless apology and hoping you'll take the bait want to try a recycle again. If you said yes, the past I'm sure won't be allowed to be brought up . And it would repeat . They know what they do is wrong but they don't sit long enough with the feelings and thoughts of it to really process it and accept responsibility for it. It's easier to make it be your fault. They are toxic and it's a dead end street with them

I would agree with this sentiment. I think they run and hide from it. My BPDexGF was pushing/pulling me back and forth, and in many ways making me do the same towards the end. A week before she literally vanished from my life in the coldest way, she was begging me to make things work when I was trying to pull away from her. Explaining this madness was never ending, she wouldnt communicate with me. She was begging, I mean, begging me to just stay on the phone with her during this conversation. I remained calm and cool and respectful during that attempted break up. But I did, and do love her. In the end, she said she loved me, hated me, was in love, was no longer in love, then just literally dropped me cold turkey. Weeks have gone by, and no replies, she hasnt answered a text, i tried to stop by to see her, she wouldnt answer the door, i tried texting, emailing. I do care for her. I honestly saw a future with her. But in reality it would never work long term.

If I tried to talk with her, I mean, calm, respectful "I am upset because of this can we talk" she would explode, and just get up and leave. Literally.

So in the end, when I had realized she had been lying about far more than I ever imagined, and I called her out on it, she literally just ditched out--- after 5 years.

It was sobering, sad, a shock, its been rough. But I'm coming to terms with it.

To be honest, it's shame I think more than remorse. She shows no empathy. Never cries. I used to joke with her playfully that if I get sad she gets mad. It's really how it was.

But the shame, and how she wont be a mature adult, talk with me, answer the phone- it's honestly helping. Because I've given up, and realized how unattractive the behavior is, and how it makes her unattractive to me. -- And I was highly attracted to her physically, and emotionally at one point.

But the behavior she pulls time and time again, the silent treatment, it's really just turned me off. I'm sad more to have now a void in my life. But I am looking to fill that void with a person who is warm, loving, no lies, and will be a good friend and partner.

The hiding away, not answering phone calls, refusing to respond. You could say it's childish, and yes, it is- but deeper than that I think it's shame, and I think it's very cowardly. I know she can't help it. I know theres no use trying. Its a lost cause. She rarely showed emotion. I don't think I ever really saw her cry about us. My last conversation in person I was in tears... .she was just cold as ice. She said, I've done all my crying. I've been crying for weeks. I doubt that. I don't think, as a person, she "feels" normal emotions. Shame, yes. Guilt, no. Embarrassment, yes. Remorse. No. It's only one end of the spectrum of emotions normal healthy people feel.

But the shame and cowardice to face the problems, communicate, is in fact helping me. Because it's, every single day, driving home the point that I don't really like the person she is, and my attraction is waning. I wonder some times if I'd ever even be able to be intimate and feel comfortable again with her if we did try. I doubt it.

But a lot of that had to do with the lies too, not just the bizarre run and hide behavior.

They say, the first lie in a relationship, is the beginning-- of the end.

Soldier on.

[UserName69]

Good question. My exBPD did cry a lot and wasn't happy about herself she even said that she hated herself for being a terrible person. I really believe that she hated the illness that ruined her life and that she meant it. But knowing her and the way she thinks she would blame everything on other people. Every time when she was involved in a conflict it always was the fault of the others; she was the angel and the others the devil. In situations like these she always tried to setup people against the other person.

I think they do feel guilty and ashamed but at one point they say "Hey, it ain't my fault, it's them who're plotting against me". So they will start the cycle again and again.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Actually, there is a theory out there about BPD -- one that I happen to ascribe to -- that people with BPD feel empathy so intensely that they have to block it out or other people's emotions overwhelm them and crush their sense of self.  The outward appearance, then, is that they have no empathy, when really it is a defense mechanism.

pwBPD have a difficult time maintaining a stable sense of self, so this actually makes sense.  If you never learn appropriate boundaries between yourself and others, and see another person suffering in some way, it's hard to know how to help them appropriately.  When do you stop taking care of someone else to take care of yourself?  If you never had positive role models, and were encouraged as a child to not differentiate yourself from others, you WILL NOT KNOW.  Some people will go overboard taking care of others to compensate, while others will look inward and only take care of themselves, because taking care of others is a slippery slope that causes them to give it all away.

For example, if you hear of people suffering who need a donation, and you have $20 in your purse or wallet, how much do you give?  What is appropriate, what is selfish, where is the line?  I dated a man who had a very poor sense of self.  The last time we went out together we visited the big city where we used to live, famous for its panhandlers.  This man is an attorney and makes good money.  If a panhandler approached him, he'd always hand out a $20.  Privately, this man tells me that he has a hard time empathizing with others and knowing how to respond to them appropriately, so he errs on the side of being overly generous.  As a child, he was encouraged to always put other people first, so he doesn't know when it's appropriate to say no.  He goes down that slippery slope of giving everything of his away until there's nothing left.

[SybilVane]

I've read all posts and I've just remembered something my exBPD told me that I guess makes sense to clarify this question of remorse/shame.

He had a friend who has a girlfriend. Someday, they were in a restaurant and his friend left to do something; his GF 'seduced' my ex and somehow they went to the bathroom and she made oral sex on him (according to my ex)

My ex said he felt guilty and he told his friend what has happened (ofc, he says he's very very honest, sincere and could not lie)

When he told me it, he justified himself like 'it was her attitude, I felt bad almost immediately, it was unnecessary... .my friend forgave me but he never has been the same again'.

I realized he REGRETS, but he only regrets because his friend (despite forgive him) became cold and their friendship were not the same anymore (how it could?). But I don't think he felt/feels REMORSE. He just regret, but don't feel guilty. He regrets because of the consequences ('end' of the friendship) , but not as a moral or ethical question... .he can't realize how he was anti-ethic and minimizes this blaming the girl... .typical... .