An extinction burst had an unexpected positive outcome (2)

[unicorn2014]

You could write him an email or call him to explain what is bothering you or what rules you want to have. His actions to date show that, regardless, he'll just walk all over them. You're giving him supply by responding, especially when you've said you wouldn't. That shows him he has control -- he can push your buttons and make you jump.

Today I was able to ask him over the phone to please not message me or email me between the hours of 10pm and 6am PST while I am sleeping as it is very frustrating to wake up to emotionally laden emails. He agreed which means now he understands why I won't respond to middle of the night communication anymore.

The only solution I see is to ignore all calls, emails, and texts other than those YOU have decided you want to respond to at the times you want to respond to them. Ignore them. Don't respond (or react) at all. If you want to text him once daily at 6 PM to say how your day is going, then do so, and ignore all the other crap he sends your way. If you want to go NC until you get the proof of divorce filing, then ignore everything but that proof.

I am proud to say I did not react to a single one of those late night messages. Today when I found myself over reacting to his  ex nihilo nihil fit text I knew it was because of the messages he sent to me last night and I was able to tell him so. Ignoring his messages comes at a price, so its better if he just not send middle of the night messages. It was my reaction to a middle of the night email that created the argument that caused chaos in my household. Everybody is back where they should be now, so thankfully we all recovered.

He'll act out ... .but who cares? You can be strong enough to ignore all that, rather than jumping when he pushes the buttons. Eventually, he'll get the message.

I hope that's the case. I clearly requested to him today that he not send me email/messages between 10pm and 6am PST so we'll see if he abides by that.

[thisagain]

Like I've said before, I think his e-mail has some valid points. But I hear that you are not ready to really think about it, and that's okay. It's totally understandable in the context of you realizing the divorce situation and how much the situation contradicts your values.

Fair enough, I'm interested to know which points are valid. Here it is again in its entirety.

Hi

i need to wake up in the morning  and know I am not going to hear things like "if you want to be in a relationship  with me... ." I Need our relationship not to be continually

threaten when you don't like something.

I need to know the person who claims to be my partner is committed to the relationship and your commitment to the relationship ship is not based on the mood you are in.

I also expect to to get your projecting under control.

You put yourself on me and you continually paint me over with your past relationships and current ones. I have talked to three therapist about this.

I have spent a small future in what I call subtractive diagnosis which

Means I found out what  I don't have based in exploring with a therapist the things you have told me I have.

Further I  am looking to see  you to deal with the spiritual cancer of resentment that you had before I meant you and you brought into our relationship when I disappointed you and you discovered I am not perfect.

I also am looking for you to stop rewriting our history to reflect your current view point.

I am looking to see that the person who claims to be my partner starts acting like one.

I am finally I am  looking to see to start caring more about how you treat others and less about how they treat you.

What do you think? Try to break out of your own perspective and see the relationship from his perspective. Can you think of any positive, legitimate reasons for him to say some of these things, or find any truth to what he's saying? Do any of his points remind you of anything that members on this board have observed?

[unicorn2014]

What do you think? Try to break out of your own perspective and see the relationship from his perspective. Can you think of any positive, legitimate reasons for him to say some of these things, or find any truth to what he's saying? Do any of his points remind you of anything that members on this board have observed?

I can not think of any positive, legitimate reason for him to say some of these things. He initiated and continued the relationship under false pretense. Some of his points do remind  me of some things the members have observed. I think my partner is comfortable with me being the identified patient, and he is treating me as such in this letter.

My problem is not one of mental illness, but one of values, however I am guessing some spiritual people would say they are one and the same thing.

What I am looking for him is not going to happen, that he change his conduct towards me until he is divorced. However since he did not believe he was married going into the relationship I know that is not going to happen. The disconnect happens to me when I think about how other people have reacted when I have told them the reason he is not here is because he is not divorced. They didn't know he was married. So while he is comfortable treating me and talking to me as if I were the one who was mentally ill, consensus reality agrees that he is married.

Last night I was able to miss him however when I started thinking about this letter I started getting mad and then when I started writing about what kind of relationship I was trying to achieve I got stuck.

Part of why I felt betrayed when I found out that he had been doing tele psychiatry for at least 8 weeks with my former psychiatrist he is said he could not afford to pay for a therapist to oversee a therapeutic separation, yet he could pay $2K for the aforementioned services.

That is why I am not accepting his shared calendar invites nor offering to share my calendar with him. One, I don't want those things to get turned off in a threat to leave me and two, I've lost faith in them.

This touches on a third issue, he likes to blame me for altering the structure of our relationship (stopping things like sharing calendars), yet I caught him in a direct lie, meaning he wasn't abiding by the structure of the relationship anyways.

He blamed me for that situation, saying I was unapproachable, and that he tried to talk to me. He could have sent it in an email.

So this gets back to what kind of relationship am I trying to achieve. If I say friendship he will get offended, if I say ex he will say there is no point in talking, and he has already opposed the idea of therapeutic separation.

Nevertheless I am still working on this, obviously its going to take some time.

[flourdust]

You're giving him supply by responding, especially when you've said you wouldn't. That shows him he has control -- he can push your buttons and make you jump.

Today I was able to ask him over the phone to please not message me or email me between the hours of 10pm and 6am PST while I am sleeping as it is very frustrating to wake up to emotionally laden emails. He agreed which means now he understands why I won't respond to middle of the night communication anymore.

He agreed, yes. That does not mean he understands why you won't respond to late night communications. That doesn't mean he'll stop doing that. That doesn't mean he won't "forget" that he agreed and dysregulate on you because you aren't answering.

I am proud to say I did not react to a single one of those late night messages.

That's really good!

Ignoring his messages comes at a price, so its better if he just not send middle of the night messages.

Right here, in this sentence, is every aspect of the problem.

"its better if he just not send middle of the night messages"

Yes, it is. Undoubtedly. But you can't stop him from sending the messages, even though you have asked and he has agreed. With pwBPD, those agreements are like contracts written on beach sand. The next tide (of emotion) washes them away. And if he needs to get emotional supply from you, then sending those messages and provoking a reaction fulfills his need, even if your reaction is negative.

"ignoring his messages comes at a price"

And this is the other aspect of this problem. The only price I am seeing is that he gets upset -- upset because even though he is breaking his agreement and trying to provoke you, you have ignored him. Who cares if he's upset? He's the rule-breaker; he's the one who can't control himself. And he's a pwBPD -- getting angry is just gonna happen. If not for this reason, then for the next, or the next, or the next.

Ignore his messages. Don't give him the reaction he wants. Let him rage all he wants -- you can ignore that, too, until it blows over.

[Daniell85]

I was reading an article the other day that cortisol builds up in the brain overnight and when we wake up, we can feel really terrible until the body has time to process it down to a normal level.

So there is also a physical reason for that difficulty in mornings. I noticed if I am going to react off of something my boyfriend is up to, if I see it within an hour or so having been a sleep, it can strike me really negatively. A couple of hours after sleep, I am a great deal more composed.

Avoiding the upsets from overnight stuff could wind down some of the escalations.   I hope he will stick to it!

[Grey Kitty]

Rules vs boundary enforcement.

Rule: you set a rule, he decides if he will break it.

Boundary enforcement: you take action to protect yourself. Decision is all on your part.

Rule: don't email me after bedtime

You see how that one works     

Boundary enforcement: in the morning I will delete all your overnight emails without reading them.

(You could possibly make this happen automatically depending how tech savvy you are and what email system you have)

I'm not sure you want to do this particular enforcement, but it would work better than the rule.

[Grey Kitty]

Daniell85, you can enforce that yourself too. Don't look at emails or messages when you wake up. Give yourself an hour or two and breakfast first!

[unicorn2014]

Today I called my partner to let him know that I had obtained a therapist and that I would be taking his "What I am looking or from you" 3am email to my first session. The therapist is my DBT therapist so she knows my story so I won't have to get her up to speed. Then I get this email from my partner today at 12:24pm titled

our current relationship

Our current relationship status from my point of view.

1)We do not talk much about anything other than raising [d15].

2)We do 

not see each other physically or on ft

3)No romance

4)No relationship affection or support or encouragement

5)We have schedule reviews and briefly discuss what  I am doing about filing again for divorce

6)No future planning

7)No fun or distractions together or any form of togetherness

8)Limited financial support

I may be missing something but I think this covers the majority of our current relationship

Followed by this email at 12:41 titled

why we are not in the same relationship

Our current relationship status from my point of view. Or why we are not in the same relationship and why I think you redefined it unilaterally 

1)We do not talk much about anything other than raising [d15].

2)We do 

not see each other physically or on ft

3)No romance

4)No relationship affection or support or encouragement

5)We have schedule reviews and briefly discuss what  I am doing about filing again for divorce

6)No future planning

7)No fun or distractions together or any form of togetherness

8)Limited financial support

I may be missing something but I think this covers the majority of our current relationship

Needles to say these emails pissed me off. I'm supposed to be the one defining the relationship, not him. I'm the one taking a step backward and looking in the mirror because he's married, not the other way around. Somehow he thinks there's some kind of equality in this. The whole reason and the only reason I am taking a step backward is because he is still married. He doesn't get it. He thinks this is some kind of tit for tat thing. Its driving me crazy.

I told my partner I hadn't even had a chance to develop my own thoughts, I'm so saturated with his.

His wife told me he is very hard to deal with. She couldn't deal with him. I do believe she emotionally abandoned him and I can understand why.

I told him what we were doing was I was waiting for him to file, and that we had morning and evening check ins that were not dependent on how we were feeling that day.

I think his 3am

what I am looking or from you

email is negative and illegitimate however it is his perspective so I will be getting help to see things from his perspective.

[unicorn2014]

Yes, it is. Undoubtedly. But you can't stop him from sending the messages, even though you have asked and he has agreed. With pwBPD, those agreements are like contracts written on beach sand. The next tide (of emotion) washes them away. And if he needs to get emotional supply from you, then sending those messages and provoking a reaction fulfills his need, even if your reaction is negative.

What do you mean by emotional supply?

Ignore his messages. Don't give him the reaction he wants. Let him rage all he wants -- you can ignore that, too, until it blows over.

His middle of the day emails are making me mad too. He doesn't get to send me an email about he defines the relationship. He's not the one with the problem.

[unicorn2014]

Boundary enforcement: in the morning I will delete all your overnight emails without reading them.

(You could possibly make this happen automatically depending how tech savvy you are and what email system you have)

I'm not sure you want to do this particular enforcement, but it would work better than the rule.

That sounds good to me but now I am dealing with two middle of the day emails that set me off. It had been suggested to me on my last thread:

1. What relationship (friendship, ex, therapeutic separation, etc.) are you trying to achieve, and why should he and you want that __________. What does it include.

2. Then list what goes away.

3. Then discuss a mature and compassionate way to make it go away. (Hint, taking things away, one by one, in response to him trying to recover things is not mature and compassionate).

Get the focus on the good things. Even if the good things are a once a week call and no other contact - make that call reliable and consistent and fun. No more punishment for disappointment.

That is what I am working on, and that was written on 1/9. Today is 1/12 and I got this long email, twice, from my partner. Its driving me crazy. He doesn't get to tell me what relationship I am trying to achieve, I get to tell him that. I don't have an answer for that after 3 days and he sends me two copies of a long email that looks like was  just fired off in a emotional reaction? He hung up on once today already. I'm still struggling with this after 3 days and he just fires off two emails to me after talking about the subject less then an hour ago. It makes no sense to me at all.

[daughterandmom]

Hi Unicorn

This all sounds very stressful. Having these relationship issues and a teenager is no picnic 

What's confusing me is do you even like him at this point? All I am reading is irritation and frustration. How do you picture your day to day interactions with him if/when he gets divorced and you were to marry him?

[unicorn2014]

Hi Unicorn

This all sounds very stressful. Having these relationship issues and a teenager is no picnic 

What's confusing me is do you even like him at this point? All I am reading is irritation and frustration. How do you picture your day to day interactions with him if/when he gets divorced and you were to marry him?

Hi daughter and mom, I don't like how he's treating me right now. He sent me another hurtful email.

It is this kind of thing that makes me want to go back to saying what I use to say to you

I am filing for divorce,moving and building a project studio

(and you can do whatever you want and

and take all the time you need but I am moving on with my life as I do not see room in your life for me nor do I feel welcome to be in yours as a collaborating  partner but there is room in your life for a servant and someone for you to delegate too )

I like him but not when he is treating me like this. He is hurting me right now. He is not being kind or gentle, he is being mean and hurtful.

[daughterandmom]

I guess what I mean, is if this is how interactions go with him, how will it be different once he's divorced and you are married? Or will every day be like this but worse because he will be right there in your face every day. And if dealing with him takes so much emotional energy, how is that going to affect your daughter?

[Skip]

Our current relationship status from my point of view.

1)We do not talk much about anything other than raising [d15].

2)We do not see each other physically or on facetim

3)No romance

4)No relationship affection or support or encouragement

5)We have schedule reviews and briefly discuss what  I am doing about filing again for divorce

6)No future planning

7)No fun or distractions together or any form of togetherness

8)Limited financial support

I may be missing something but I think this covers the majority of our current relationship

Unicorn, isn't this true? You have effectively punished him in a step-wise progression by taking these things away from the relationship as retaliation over his marital status. Something we characterized the other day as emotional abuse.

We've encouraged you to communicate what the relationship is and what it isn't.  To him (and many of us would feel the same way in this situation), the relationship is quagmire of seemingly increasing punishments to force him get a divorce, that he doesn't want. You feel he deserves to be treated this way because he repeatedly lied to you.

Why not answer him and tell him the truth. It sounds unhealthy, but isn't time you both just came clean. That is the relationship you are offering.

Anyway, putting that aside, I'd like to recommend that you focus your time with the members here looking at the bigger picture and not  airing out text message after text message of your fighting. Wrong time, wrong word, etc.  At this point, bpdfamily is just a vehicle to amplify your daily anger - we don't want to be that. We are enabling at this point and it isn't good for you or him.

Going to the bigger picture... .

I've followed your story for weeks and I have no idea what you really want or what is important. I don't mean to say you are not trying to find a solution, you are, but you are emotion driven right now and not much make sense in terms of the ultimate goal of building a healthy relationship with this man.

1. We've encouraged you to step away and clear your head (and let him clear his) for 2- 6 weeks. What I hear you saying is that you want 2x communications, but under some strict rules which have never been clarified or mutually agreed to. This 2x daily communications under your evolving "rules" which has lead to weeks of daily squabbles. How does this ever get better? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

2. We've encouraged you to insist in having honesty in the relationship (2way). For you to find out (ask) why he doesn't want to get a divorce. There are indications that something is amiss (taxes or finances) or his relationship with his wife or ________. Don't you want to know why? If it is a tax issue that he can't financially resolve, all of this talk of divorce secondary to that.

3. Why do you not want to take a "mutually agreed" on break to relieve the strain and then come back and define/negotiate a relationship that works for both of you while the marriage is still intact - rather than beating each other in this bad child/punitive parent mode the relationship is in right now.

[unicorn2014]

I guess what I mean, is if this is how interactions go with him, how will it be different once he's divorced and you are married? Or will every day be like this but worse because he will be right there in your face every day. And if dealing with him takes so much emotional energy, how is that going to affect your daughter?

In order for us to get married he's going to have to purchase a house in a very expensive school district so that won't be happening until after my daughter graduates. I already told him I don't want him putting all his capital into a house. He will not be moving in with my daughter and I in our 2BDR apartment.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, isn't this true? You have effectively punished him in a step-wise progression by taking these things away from the relationship as retaliation over his marital status. Something we characterized the other day as emotional abuse.

No its not true because I don't feel motivated by retaliation. What I am trying to do is stop from being flooded by him. I'm trying to take a step back. He would manage every single aspect of my life if I let him. Remember I said the relationship started out as a quasi-parental relationship? I'm trying to develop my own identity separate from him. He is very overpowering and very domineering. I don't know if I was clear or not but when I initially set up the relationship it was built on a certain subset of BDSM principles called DD/lg. When I discovered after much work with my then therapist that my partner was not healthy enough to be my daddy I had to totally change the relationship. I had no idea my partner had a personalty disorder when I met him. I didn't find that out until later.

Does what I am saying making any sense at all?

I've followed your story for weeks and I have no idea what you really want or what is important. I don't mean to say you are not trying to find a solution, you are, but you are emotion driven right now and not much make sense in terms of the ultimate goal of building a healthy relationship with this man.

I haven't even had a chance to take his January 6 email to a therapist and he sends me a new one, so that's why I'm emotion driven right now. He won't stop coming at me. I told him I need to get help to try to see things from his perspective.

1. We've encouraged you to step away and clear your head (and let him clear his) for 2- 6 weeks. What I hear you saying is that you want 2x communications, but under some strict rules which have never been clarified or mutually agreed to. This 2x communications and evolving "rules" has lead to weeks of daily squabbles. How does this ever get better?

This morning and evening check in was relatively new, as of January 1, and it is up to me to uphold that boundary. I was not expecting that list he sent me. That was the list I was supposed to be working on: what kind of relationship I am trying to achieve, what that looks like. I didn't even get a chance to do that before he sent me his list. Last night I was trying to write it out. My partner is much faster, much stronger, much more forceful then me psychologically.

2. We've encouraged you to insist in having honesty in the relationship (2way). For you to find out (ask) why he doesn't want to get a divorce. There is indications that something is amiss (taxes or finances) or his relationship with his wife or ________. Don't you want to know why?

He maintains that he filed and his lawyer messed it up. I've been talking to him about this all along. That is what he says every single time.

3. Why do you not want to take a "mutually agreed" on break to relieve the strain and then come back and define/negotiate a relationship that works for both of you while the marriage is still intact - rather than beating each other in this bad child/punitive parent mode the relationship is in right now.

Because he will not allow it, if I try to take a break he will say I am breaking up with him. That's why he stopped sharing calendars. He is very volatile. If I tell him I am taking a break for 2 weeks I may lose the relationship and I need to be prepared for that. Stopping calendar sharing, location sharing and facetime was a big deal. He's still fighting me on it. And I am not sure I want to continue calendar and location sharing period. I was trying to work on a boundary as to why those things go away permanently. That's what I was trying to work on in my relationship. The no facetime was kind of like the equivalent of us not seeing each other because we are in a long distance relationship. That is something that would come back as soon as I see that he has filed.

I'm feeling like I am under a lot of pressure.

These things I have been posting today are emails, not texts. I've been deleting his texts today.

______

At any rate when he was dysregulated he proposed not talking until February 1 so I suggested that if that is what we need to do to keep things simple then I am fine with that. He ignored my suggestion. I am dealing with a man who does not want to take a break that he suggested in the first place. 

[Skip]

2. We've encouraged you to insist in having honesty in the relationship (2way). For you to find out (ask) why he doesn't want to get a divorce. There is indications that something is amiss (taxes or finances) or his relationship with his wife or ________. Don't you want to know why?

He maintains that he filed and his lawyer messed it up. I've been talking to him about this all along. That is what he says every single time.

Why not ask this question over on the legal board.

My finance had said for __ months that his divorce (original petition) was filed with the court. When I checked the public record it wasn't there.

He maintained for __ weeks that it was filed.  Then he said that either his lawyer or the court clerk made an error.  

To resolve this, rather than file the petition he had, has hired a new lawyer which took __ weeks from the time I discovered the filing had not been made. His new lawyer is now saying that it will take __ - ___ months to prepare a divorce filing (original petition) for the court.

Does this sound believable or am I getting the run around?

3. Why do you not want to take a "mutually agreed" on break to relieve the strain and then come back and define/negotiate a relationship that works for both of you while the marriage is still intact - rather than beating each other in this bad child/punitive parent mode the relationship is in right now.

Because he will not allow it... .

If I tell him I am taking a break for 2 weeks I may lose the relationship... .

... .when he was dysregulated he proposed not talking until February 1 so I suggested that if that is what we need to do to keep things simple then I am fine with that... .

Do you want the 2 week break?

Are you willing to make some compromises so that he feel treated with respect (and you do too)?

[unicorn2014]

2. We've encouraged you to insist in having honesty in the relationship (2way). For you to find out (ask) why he doesn't want to get a divorce. There is indications that something is amiss (taxes or finances) or his relationship with his wife or ________. Don't you want to know why?

He maintains that he filed and his lawyer messed it up. I've been talking to him about this all along. That is what he says every single time.

Why not ask this question like this over on the legal board.

My finance had said for __ monthes that his divorce (original petition) was filed with the court. When I checked the public record it wasn't there. He maintains __ weeks that it was filed.  Then he said that the lawyer said it was filed and either his lawyer or the court clerk made an error.  To resolve this, rather than file the petition he had, he has hired a new lawyer which took __ weeks. His new lawyer is saying that it will take __ - ___ months to prepare a divorce filing (original petition) for the court.

Does this sound believable or am I getting the run around?

Thank you, that is a good idea and I will write up a post later based on that.

Do you want the 2 week break?

I am thinking about it.

I need to make a point about the original subject of this thread. On January 6 my partner sent the "what I am looking or from you" email and then on January 7 2016 he stopped sharing a calendar with me that he had been sharing since September 24 2013. That is why I called what he did an extinction burst. I was not the one who stopped sharing calendars. That was his decision, not mine.

.

If I am going to go no contact for any length of time I need to be much more prepared for his next extinction burst as I did not handle this last one very well at all. If you have anything I could read about dealing with extinction bursts when there is a minor involved I would appreciate it. It might make more sense to wait until I talk my new individual  therapist next Wednesday about what to expect and how to handle it. (She is one of my DBT therapists so she is familiar with my story, she is not a stranger.)

Are you willing to make some compromises so that he feel treated with respect (and you do too)?

Absolutely since today I do not feel prepared to deal with another extinction burst. The last one caused my daughter to run away because of bad vibes. She likes my partner but feels she has to be loyal to me.

I'm also open to suggestions on compromises as well.

[flourdust]

Yes, it is. Undoubtedly. But you can't stop him from sending the messages, even though you have asked and he has agreed. With pwBPD, those agreements are like contracts written on beach sand. The next tide (of emotion) washes them away. And if he needs to get emotional supply from you, then sending those messages and provoking a reaction fulfills his need, even if your reaction is negative.

What do you mean by emotional supply?

Good question! BPD is often described as a black hole of neediness. The need is to be loved, wanted, valued, noticed, made to feel better. You've cut him off from a lot of his supply -- visits, chats, emotional engagement. To try to fill his need, he wants some reaction from you -- he might prefer love, apologies, adoration, pleading forgiveness -- but if he can't get those, he'll take your irritation, frustration, and anger. So he pokes you (with a provocative message), and you respond -- even though you've told him you wouldn't. He wins.

Ignore his messages. Don't give him the reaction he wants. Let him rage all he wants -- you can ignore that, too, until it blows over.

His middle of the day emails are making me mad too. He doesn't get to send me an email about he defines the relationship. He's not the one with the problem. [/quote]
Yes, he does get to send you an email about how he defines the relationship. He did. He did it twice, in fact. You can't control that. You're understandably upset. The only power you have is not to show him any reaction to his poking. Ignore them.

[thisagain]

Are you willing to make some compromises so that he feel treated with respect (and you do too)?

Absolutely since today I do not feel prepared to deal with another extinction burst. The last one caused my daughter to run away because of bad vibes. She likes my partner but feels she has to be loyal to me.

I'm also open to suggestions on compromises as well.

Was he directly contacting your daughter to drag her into the fight, or was she only reacting to your behavior on your end of the fight? It seems like you might have a lot more control over all this than you think you do, but there's a lot of FOG and other factors that keep you in this reactive place instead.

It seems that your problem with these e-mails is really that since he's married and deceived you about the divorce, you don't think he has the right to be complaining about the relationship or asking you to improve or change anything at all. Am I understanding you correctly? Like I've said before, I think it's fine and totally understandable for you to feel that way... .The problem is that it's not kind to him to be in a relationship and communicating lots every day (which you still are), while you are not ready to respect or consider his feelings.

We tried to scale back communication enough to avoid triggering emotional reactions and high-conflict behavior (by either of you). That hasn't worked, and got twisted into more high-conflict behavior that he is experiencing as abusive. I'm not seeing any options other than to take a break from the relationship until you are really ready to work on your role in the conflict, which is going to mean considering some things from his point of view and being respectful and validating of his feelings.

[unicorn2014]

Yes, it is. Undoubtedly. But you can't stop him from sending the messages, even though you have asked and he has agreed. With pwBPD, those agreements are like contracts written on beach sand. The next tide (of emotion) washes them away. And if he needs to get emotional supply from you, then sending those messages and provoking a reaction fulfills his need, even if your reaction is negative.

What do you mean by emotional supply?

Good question! BPD is often described as a black hole of neediness. The need is to be loved, wanted, valued, noticed, made to feel better. You've cut him off from a lot of his supply -- visits, chats, emotional engagement. To try to fill his need, he wants some reaction from you -- he might prefer love, apologies, adoration, pleading forgiveness -- but if he can't get those, he'll take your irritation, frustration, and anger. So he pokes you (with a provocative message), and you respond -- even though you've told him you wouldn't. He wins.

Thank you. I was just able to tell him that I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who takes my inventory. That is what he was doing in his email where he told me I brought the spiritual cancer of resentment into the relationship and I value resentment. I told him we aren't even supposed to be talking about our relationship right now. We are supposed to be at peace while we wait for his divorce to be filed. I am working on a post for the legal board to go over that as well.

Yes, he does get to send you an email about how he defines the relationship. He did. He did it twice, in fact. You can't control that. You're understandably upset. The only power you have is not to show him any reaction to his poking. Ignore them.

This man won't let me think for myself, let alone write for myself. He is very overpowering.

Members of this board have excellent suggestions, and I'm trying to follow them, like define what kind of relationship I'm trying to achieve, what goes away, etc, and I can't even get that far because my partner keeps hitting me with some new conflict.

I have identified a serious values conflict. He thinks its ok and he has the right to take my inventory. I'm not ok with that. That goes against everything I believe in. Its even more of a problem for me then his marital status because he can change his marital status, he can't change his belief system. He grew up in a hyper religious household. I have long term sobriety and long term recovery in Al-Anon. You do not take other people's inventories. That's a big no no.

Looks like I just got myself a day off, he told me do not call me tomorrow and do not text me.

[unicorn2014]

Was he directly contacting your daughter to drag her into the fight, or was she only reacting to your behavior on your end of the fight? It seems like you might have a lot more control over all this than you think you do, but there's a lot of FOG and other factors that keep you in this reactive place instead.

She was only reacting to my behavior on my end  of the fight. That was not a normal fight.

It seems that your problem with these e-mails is really that since he's married and deceived you about the divorce, you don't think he has the right to be complaining about the relationship or asking you to improve or change anything at all. Am I understanding you correctly?

No, you are not. My problem with his emails is they are distracting from the real issue at hand which his filing for divorce, which I found out today involves a lot of work. I don't want to deal with the relationship until the conditions for a relationship are put into place, which would be a divorce filing.

We tried to scale back communication enough to avoid triggering emotional reactions and high-conflict behavior (by either of you). That hasn't worked, and got twisted into more high-conflict behavior that he is experiencing as abusive. I'm not seeing any options other than to take a break from the relationship until you are really ready to work on your role in the conflict, which is going to mean considering some things from his point of view and being respectful and validating of his feelings.

What you call his point of view I call taking my inventory. He also just told me I am not a practicing member of my religion, a religion he left over two decades ago.

These are serious values conflicts.

I'm definitely going to need review the lessons on values and make some choices.

[Skip]

This man won't let me think for myself, let alone write for myself. He is very overpowering.

Members of this board have excellent suggestions, and I'm trying to follow them, like define what kind of relationship I'm trying to achieve, what goes away, etc, and I can't even get that far because my partner keeps hitting me with some new conflict.

You can't put this on him. You're an adult, a parent, and have to be responsible for your own thoughts and choices.

[thisagain]

No, you are not. My problem with his emails is they are distracting from the real issue at hand which his filing for divorce, which I found out today involves a lot of work. I don't want to deal with the relationship until the conditions for a relationship are put into place, which would be a divorce filing.

Ok, I think that's fine. But I don't think it's compatible with continuing to have contact with him until he files.

What if you'd turned the phone off or put it away when your daughter started to have a negative reaction to the fighting? You could have so much more control over all this than you think. That's what boundaries are about. They aren't rules for him, they're rules for yourself about what you will and won't engage in.

[unicorn2014]

This man won't let me think for myself, let alone write for myself. He is very overpowering.

Members of this board have excellent suggestions, and I'm trying to follow them, like define what kind of relationship I'm trying to achieve, what goes away, etc, and I can't even get that far because my partner keeps hitting me with some new conflict.

You can't put this on him. You're an adult, a parent, and have to be responsible for your own thoughts and choices.

I understand that and apparently he finds it really threatening that I need to think about my values around location and calendar sharing. I just got this email, topic

Sry to have bothered you

I will not be expecting anything from you in the future. so please do not waste any of your time on the list of our current relationship status  or the email I sent on your mom' birthday I simply no longer care

—I am stepping out of your  way

He's swinging  hard and it hurts to be on the receiving ends of these blows. That last email gave me a lump in my throat. I never send him emails like that. I never tell him don't call me, don't text me. I don't treat him that way. He's not working with a support team. There's nothing stopping him from treating me this way. He said it, I simply no longer care

I have never said things like that to him.

[unicorn2014]

No, you are not. My problem with his emails is they are distracting from the real issue at hand which his filing for divorce, which I found out today involves a lot of work. I don't want to deal with the relationship until the conditions for a relationship are put into place, which would be a divorce filing.

Ok, I think that's fine. But I don't think it's compatible with continuing to have contact with him until he files.

What if you'd turned the phone off or put it away when your daughter started to have a negative reaction to the fighting? You could have so much more control over all this than you think. That's what boundaries are about. They aren't rules for him, they're rules for yourself about what you will and won't engage in.

I have turned my phone off but that particularly extinction burst totally caught me off guard. I will be turning my phone off when my daughter gets home from the weight room. He's really causing  me pain  tonight so  I need to cover my hurt  up before she gets home.

He just left me because I told him I had to think about whether or not I want to be in a relationship with someone who wanted to take my inventory and tell me I didn't practice my religion and tell me I had resentments. I was being serious. As I stated a marriage can be dissolved, a person can't change their values. I often hold my relationship up to the light of my recovery and the way my partner is treating me doesn't make sense for someone who has the values I have.

[Daniell85]

He is jerking your chains with all of those judgemental comments. The comments are meant to make you feel "lesser than".

It's hard not to fight back to someone who says those things to you, especially when he has a "beam" in his own eye.

You are trying very hard to do the right thing, as you see them. I can see why you are reacting back at him.

I know this is hard. Ignore his mean comments. Don't acknowledge them to him, don't pick up the gauntlet. Do you understand, he is using you to get a fight so you will engage with him. He wants control back. Over you. And you are pushing back and exhausting yourself on it.

When I first met my boyfriend, he was awesome. Then all the crappy stuff started. Oh my, the theatrics. We were "done forever!" a hundred times. I totally believed it. Grieved deeply. Then he came back. Over and over.

I don't personally believe that your partner is going anywhere. He is threatening you with ending the relationship. Power over Unicorn to hurt her and upset her and make her be nice again instead of a meanie who is being firm on him getting a divorce.

Don't be afraid to take a break. Trust yourself more and stop letting him corner you into second guessing yourself on so many things that are important in your life.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have turned my phone off but that particularly extinction burst totally caught me off guard.

What you are describing does not sound like an 'extinction burst.'

[unicorn2014]

He is jerking your chains with all of those judgemental comments. The comments are meant to make you feel "lesser than".

It's hard not to fight back to someone who says those things to you, especially when he has a "beam" in his own eye.

You are trying very hard to do the right thing, as you see them. I can see why you are reacting back at him.

I know this is hard. Ignore his mean comments. Don't acknowledge them to him, don't pick up the gauntlet. Do you understand, he is using you to get a fight so you will engage with him. He wants control back. Over you. And you are pushing back and exhausting yourself on it.

When I first met my boyfriend, he was awesome. Then all the crappy stuff started. Oh my, the theatrics. We were "done forever!" a hundred times. I totally believed it. Grieved deeply. Then he came back. Over and over.

I don't personally believe that your partner is going anywhere. He is threatening you with ending the relationship. Power over Unicorn to hurt her and upset her and make her be nice again instead of a meanie who is being firm on him getting a divorce.

Don't be afraid to take a break. Trust yourself more and stop letting him corner you into second guessing yourself on so many things that are important in your life.

Thank you Daniel, that is very helpful. He is now messaging me through Facebook telling me he no longer cares, he no longer expects anything from me. First he tells me don't call him or text him tomorrow, then he tells me he will call me at the end of the workweek. It sounds like I need to review the lesson on circular arguments. I find it really ironic that as a person such as myself is in a position like this. Its a good thing I don't have any sponsees. This would not look good. I guess I expect more of my self then this, I believe I can do way better then this.

I'm definitely hurt and confused by his behavior and his words.

This is so like my ex husband for many years after our divorce yet I haven't left my partner so I don't understand why he is acting the way same way. It makes no sense to me.

I've been very clear with him that we can resume relationship discussions when he shows me he's filed and in the meantime if this is too confusing for him we can take a time out. He's not interested in that either. I'm trying so hard to be reasonable and he's fighting me every the step of the way. I know I am supposed to be the emotionally leader here but he doesn't want to follow. He thinks he's supposed to be leading me.

[Kwamina]

I guess I expect more of my self then this, I believe I can do way better then this.

... .

This is so like my ex husband for many years after our divorce yet I haven't left my partner so I don't understand why he is acting the way same way. It makes no sense to me.

... .

I've been very clear with him that we can resume relationship discussions when he shows me he's filed and in the meantime if this is too confusing for him we can take a time out. He's not interested in that either. I'm trying so hard to be reasonable and he's fighting me every the step of the way. I know I am supposed to be the emotionally leader here but he doesn't want to follow. He thinks he's supposed to be leading me.

It only takes one person to take a time-out. Even if he doesn't want to, you can still decide to distance yourself and take your own time-out from the relationship. Turning your phone off is a good move I think. Also not reading his e-mails or facebook messages, particularly those texts/e-mails/fb messages he sends after midnight in the very early hours of the morning.

Not responding to the messages is advisable in my opinion and to help you do this it can really help to not read them at all. Identifying your triggers and anticipating your own impulsiveness is very important when you are trying to end the cycle of conflict and dysfunction. You know that after you read his messages there is an increased likelihood of you getting triggered which causes you to react instead of respond. Getting triggered happens to all of us, but once you've identified your triggers you can start making a plan to help you manage them. Not immediately reacting is helpful, not responding at all is often also very helpful and in this particular case, I think not reading the messages at all can also be every helpful.

How do you feel about this?