An extinction burst had an unexpected positive outcome (1)

[unicorn2014]

Can you slow down and look at the dynamics of the relationship as a whole, rather than the issue of the day? It'll be hard for a therapist in one session to get an accurate idea of what's going on and where that e-mail was coming from. Your going NC until a therapy session, again, has an air of punishing him for the e-mail rather than appropriate boundary enforcement. I think it's very possible that you are not in a place emotionally to talk with him without feeding more conflict and toxicity--but that doesn't sound like what you're saying.

Actually that is what I am saying. Today my partner brought up something my former therapist said to him when he called him after he verbally abused me and that triggered me. He was relating it to something another father said to me that his daughter said to him about my daughter. I told my partner that was not a good thing to bring up.

This was from an email he wrote to me at 1:59pm PST today

I was trying to help you with the crisis at hand and brought up how my therapist may have a suggestion on how to deal with [the other father], and his daughter saying [my D15] offered her pot. this triggered you. I kept trying to keep the subject in the crisis but it got detailed from there

Can my partner really be that immature to think that bringing up the advice his/my former therapist gave him after verbally abusing me wasn't going to trigger me? That was the time he got so bad that I thought about filing a restraining order against him.

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of it as you emotionally abusing him, so much as you contributing to the conflict that is very hurtful to you both, or contributing to the unhealthy dynamic that you both are experiencing as emotional abuse. Does that make sense?

I also forgot to mention that the first time my partner called me emotionally abusive was when I hung up on him after he told me he had been calling my former psychiatrist for 2 months without telling me. I was very hurt because I had been very open with him about my mental health care. My partner tried to blame me and say I was unapproachable and that's why he didn't tell me. That is why I turned off calendar sharing and am not accepting his invitations. I have realized he only shows me what he wants me to see and it gives me a false sense of security. I am not interested.

Many members have observed that you have been acting in a way that is confusing and hurtful to him, and contributing to a very high daily level of conflict that hurts you both and erodes at your relationship. That can be true at the same time as him emotionally abusing you, or him showing BPD behaviors (or just generally obnoxious behaviors) that are very hurtful to you.

Or he could just be blaming me for his inability to be intimate.

In your relationship, it is absolutely not emotionally abusive to not want to be in a relationship with a married man. It's even fine to resent the deception/murkiness so much that you're unable to carry on a relationship-as-usual with him without the resentment seeping out (like we talked about before with all the picking on little things). But the kind thing to do in response is to back away from the relationship until the tension has been resolved (either by him filing/getting divorced, or by you working on radical acceptance). Not to keep picking daily fights or, as Skip mentioned, taking the punitive-parent role with respect to his divorce.

I hear what you are saying and I would like to point out to you what my partner wrote to me in an email today at 1:59pm.

I have not ever been evasive or deceptive in our relationship and I am sry if I communicated to you in a way that made that impression. I have been very upfront with you about my intentions with you and for us and the actions I need to take or do to make that happen.

He is flat out denying being deceptive.

I also don't know if you noticed  the times where my partner accused me of being resentful.

He wrote this to me on 1/6/2016 at 11:55pm PST

Further I  am looking to see  you to deal with the spiritual cancer of resentment that you had before I meant you and you brought into our relationship when I disappointed you and you discovered I am not perfect.

He wrote this to me on 1/7/2016 at 9:26pm PST

You are are very spiritually sick person

Who values are

Resentment, self righteousness and drama

Do you see how he is judging me? He is accusing me of having the "spiritual cancer of resentment". That is violent language. He claims he does not have resentments. I think he is deluded.

How am I supposed to respond to those statements without seeming like I'm contributing to the conflict?

[unicorn2014]

So its 11:36pm and I'm getting ready to go to sleep and I see these messages come in from my partner on Messenger. (That means its 2:36am where he is)

• You are it dear



• I love you



• There is no girl friend or other woman you are it



• I have been loyal and faithful



• And that is how I will remain

If that's somehow supposed to comfort me or reassure me it doesn't.

I never thought he was cheating on me.

I don't understand why he has to say things like that.

He knows I have a zero tolerance policy on infidelity.

I want to tell him it makes me nervous when he starts sending messages like that to me at 2:39am in the morning.

I'm not going to respond right now.

Hopefully someone on the board will have responded by the time I wake up.

I would really like to ask him why he is sending me these (unsolicited) messages of reassurance, as they are actually having the opposite effect.

Something I haven't mentioned yet: my partner told me the first time he was married to his wife he did cheat on her, both physically and emotionally, with two different affair partners. In fact his wife told me he carried the emotional affair over into his second marriage. He also told me that he told his wife when he was going to see his physical affair partner. I would have never ever tolerated that kind of behavior.  This was a long time ago, but it seems to me that he is reacting to his old behavior. He actually remarried his wife after dissolving the marriage because he felt guilty for how he treated her during their first marriage.

I have no history of infidelity with my former spouse. I don't think the way my partner does.

Is there a way I can either gently ask my partner why he is sending me those messages or gently tell him not to send them to me? They are not comforting to me, in fact they make me very uncomfortable.

-----------------

Update: more messages have come in since writing this. The last one is definitely provoking me. I do hope someone responds by the time I wake up. I need help. I am calling my health plan in the morning to ask about a therapist.

• I miss you and it is tearing me part.



• I tried to connect with you this coming Friday, to watch Star Trek and you turned me down

That looks like an extinction burst to me.

I was very clear with him that we would resume FaceTime once I saw from him, his lawyer, or the county website that he had filed for divorce.

Also I can I tell the board I do not share his feeling. I do not miss him and it is not tearing me apart. Except for his first trip out here in September 2012 he has stayed with me each and every time. From September 2012 to September 2015 I thought his divorce had been filed which is why I allowed him to stay with me. He maintains he didn't deceive me as I shared from his email from earlier today:

Yesterday at 2pm

I have not ever been evasive or deceptive in our relationship and I am sry if I communicated to you in a way that made that impression. I have been very upfront with you about my intentions with you and for us and the actions I need to take or do to make that happen.

He is continuing to message me as I am modifying my post.

you do turn on find location

The message I am getting is I do not matter to you. I am only important to you because of (d15)

Reading those message makes me feel like I have fleas crawling all over me.

I don't want to get bitten by those fleas.

Furthermore the reason he called me emotionally abusive the first time this month is because I hung up on him when I found out he had been calling my former psychiatrist for at least 8 weeks without telling me and I have been fully disclosing my mental health care to him. I felt betrayed. I no longer feel like sharing calendars works for me because I no longer think they mean anything.

Additionally he told me the reason he was talking to this psychiatrist is that this psychiatrist told he didn't think he mattered to himself  and my partner is convinced that is his problem.

[Kwamina]

How am I supposed to respond to those statements without seeming like I'm contributing to the conflict?

By not responding to them at all. You do not have to defend yourself against false accusations or projections stemming from distorted thinking patterns. By not responding or not getting provoked you are actually also sending a very clear and powerful message. I would advise to ignore invalid statements and to only respond to valid statements from him.

It makes think that if I have to use the BIFF response with my partner that perhaps he is not a good partner for me.

... .

I am confident that if I continue to work on my FOO issues, especially this all bad child false projection my FOO put on me I will be less reactive to my partner's hostile emails and eventually I may no longer want to be in a relationship with a hostile person.

The reason I referred to his email as an extinction burst is it is a reaction to me upholding my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

... .

I have to be the strong one and uphold my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

I could say the trouble I'm having with my partner today is because I am still allowing myself to have an (emotionally) intimate relationship with a married man.

I think what you say here is very important. A lot of this indeed also has to do with values, your boundaries for what is acceptable or not considering those values and the actions you take to defend your boundaries.

What you point out here indicates that a part of your own internal emotional struggle stems from the fact that you in some ways are going against your own values. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

[Caley]

Good Morning Unicorn,

I'll assume you've had very little sleep in light of last night's text messages.

Firstly, it is important to get good quality sleep ... you know that. I have received these types of late night texts too and, as much as it was difficult to do, I put my phone on silent and resolved not to look at it prior to going to bed. Most people respect other peoples time and do not text, or communicate, in the late hours of the evening/night unless it is a dire emergency. So, anything coming through at these times is likely to be from the ratbag.

Reading through the initial texts, your ratbag appears to be behaving in a way that has been triggered by feelings of loss ... loss of whatever you provided. He sounds like he is putting his heart on the line (and he probably feels he is ... despite the fact he is a ratbag and behaves appallingly towards you). If you answer them in a negative way ... he gets to confirm his victim status and that you are the root of his misery. So, just think about whether you want him in your life, ever again, before responding. Personally, I'd resolve to remain completely silent and not answer but you have to follow what feels right to you.

Secondly, he is not interested in trying to offer you some comfort ... he is trying to make himself feel better in the moment and in the moments he was sending you texts. It isn't easy to garner attention at 2.39am because most people are asleep ... and you, it seems, are high on his list for potential supply. I think your decision not to respond is a strong one. However, you do write, 'right now' ... which is worrying because it implies that you might consider replying later should you succumb to any thoughts and feelings of responsibility, obligation or guilt. Clinically speaking ... he has got himself in this mess, he is an adult, and it is his responsibility to find a solution ... your responsibility is to yourself.

Thirdly, you are assuming he is sending these texts to 'reassure' you ... .why are you assuming this?

Fourthly, he has given you information about his previous marriage in which he cheated twice (what evidence do you have that this is true ... and only twice? ... Ratbags lie. When he told you this ... can you remember how you felt about it? You also learned that he was cheating in his second marriage (little Johnny gets to do what he likes doesn't he?). Fidelity sounds like it is a 'must' for you ... so why stay involved with someone who, quite obviously, doesn't share your values?

Fifthly, I wouldn't consider it an extinction burst ... moreso, more of the same 'woe is me ... have pity on me ... look! I'm being torn apart (... poor thing, there there ... mummy put a plaster on it!).

If you don't share his feelings (how do you really know what they are, anyway?) then get rid and don't look back ... he'll find someone else to wipe his bottom for him.

My ears prick up when I hear people say 'I never ... ' and 'I have never ... ' or, 'Not ever ... ' especially if they've not been accused of doing whatever it is that they are saying they have 'never' done.

Evasive and deceptive behaviour is felt ... trust it. Ambiguity and vagueness in language is both evasive and can be deceptive too.

"I have been very upfront with you about my intentions with you and for us" ... .(I have told you I have cheated before... upfront ... so I havent' been evasive or deceptive) ... "... and the actions I need to take or do to make that happen" ... ( I will take any action needed to carry on in this manner).

I'm not surprised you feel like you have fleas ... it's because you do ... so you need some flea powder.

Again, if you respond to his texts in a negative manner ... he will get to be the victim again and get to call you abusive for being so mean ... (hanging up on me ... you big meanie you!).

Don't believe a word ... his psychiatrist is bound by confidentially. So, whatever he tells you about what his psychiatrist has said ... you cannot verify ... so he can tell you whatever he wants ... and by telling you that his psychiatrist says that the clients problem is rooted in self worth ... will have you reaching for the tissues an trigger your saviour behaviour.

The psychiatrist may very well be right ... and your SO may even be telling the truth in this instance ... but it is up to him, alone, to develop self-worth. Hahaha, he might find that he could gain a little self-worth if he stopped being such a ratbag... !

I hope you have a better day today ... look after yourself (because he is incapable of it).

Bless you.

[patientandclear]

Unicorn, I'd say an expectation that he tell you about his psych appts is overly enmeshed and not a reasonable expectation unless he chooses to tell you--even if you were married. The fact that it's someone you referred him to does not change that--that person becomes his psychiatrist if he starts working with that person. These are the most private sensitive relationships. We may or may not share the fact that we're seeing mental health professionals with our partner at the outset or at all. I don't see him violating any healthy expectations on this point.

[patientandclear]

I see it differently. It's true that he has been deceptive and his inability to validate that for you is undoubtedly salt in the wound. But that is also a known longstanding issue in this r/ship and my understanding is that you are taking time to reflect on what that means for you going forward, meanwhile trying not to shred what is good between you in a series of reactions to your bad feelings about this.

Beyond that, so far as I can tell, the guy misses what you were doing before the issue of the divorce changed your pattern. That's a pretty straightforward sentiment and is understandable. It could move him down the road to rectify the divorce situation--it is not a bad sentiment.

If hearing from him that he misses you is intolerable, I think you need an actual break from this r/ship, explained in a kind fashion as you did before--to ensure he is not on the receiving end of toxic resentment from you. He is right, your (legitimate) resentment is coloring your response to everything he does, even innocuous, appropriate comments.

I think Skip is right that there will be no r/ship if you don't protect it from this impulse to chip away and attack him. If I were him there is NO WAY I could anticipate some of your expectations (e.g., that he not reference something he learned from your shared therapist re your daughter because he heard this thing after you were triggered by him being abusive). I identify with his bewildered message about that--not sure how he is supposed to know that would be offensive to you. FWIW it would not be offensive to me if my exH who went through batterer's treatment dug up something he heard in that class and offered it to me as an insight that might bear on my current situation. I'd appreciate that he listened in class and could apply the concepts in our lives going forward.

I don't know why he's assuring you he isn't cheating. I agree he has cheated in the past. You are doing things now that will break your r/ship down one way or another, either because he cheats (not clear that you are in a committed r/ship according to you at this point, so not sure what that means), or he gives up, or he becomes a quivering pile of confused jello.

You've known he cheated in the past, including with you, for a long time. If your value is you won't be with someone who has cheated, so be it, but you crossed that decision point a long time ago with him. You CAN change your mind, but if that's a possibility, again, I urge you to take some genuine time off from your daily interactions with him to use your DBT skills to assess what you want and will be able to live with once you determine your course from here on.

[Daniell85]

I think Patient has a really good point about how you can change your mind when different conditions present or are made.

Reading the stuff he sends you... .boy my anxiety levels rise and i get mad at him  and I am not the person trying to cope. Point is, he is really working on you, has been doing so for ages, and this upset is saturating your life.

Your child is in crisis atm, and you are wearing out. I really want to encourage you to detach as much as you can right now.

I would personally ignore those texts. He's being a real pill and needs to get a grip on things.

[Sunfl0wer]

-There is no girl friend or other woman you are it

-I have been loyal and faithful

-And that is how I will remain

This is possibly an issue of transferrence on his part.  There is not much you can do about his issues though, they are his to deal with.

Kwamina's advice is invaluable:

Quote from: unicorn2014 on Today at 12:38:29 AM

How am I supposed to respond to those statements without seeming like I'm contributing to the conflict?

By not responding to them at all. You do not have to defend yourself against false accusations or projections stemming from distorted thinking patterns. By not responding or not getting provoked you are actually also sending a very clear and powerful message. I would advise to ignore invalid statements and to only respond to valid statements from him.

When my partner and I were having ongoing conflicts, MC advised me to stop engaging, clean up my part of the conflict.  It was the only way MC had to get exBF to look at HIS behavior.  As long as I engaged in conflict, as long as I reacted/responded/contributed in any way... .I was effectively providing exBF a distraction from looking at himself to work on.  As long as I did anything to be pointed at to say, "See, Sunflower is the 'bad' one" then MC could not assist exBF to do his own work... .instead he could externalize his issues onto me.

You seem to be very aware of your feelings... .  noticing your feelings and honoring the feelings you have of needing to back away ahead of time... .  Helps prevent yourself from reacting vs coming from a place of wise mind.  I wonder what self care you need to do for yourself to help prevent your desires to respond when you believe you may be reacting... .so that you are caring for your emotional needs ahead of time, before engaging?

[unicorn2014]

How am I supposed to respond to those statements without seeming like I'm contributing to the conflict?

By not responding to them at all. You do not have to defend yourself against false accusations or projections stemming from distorted thinking patterns. By not responding or not getting provoked you are actually also sending a very clear and powerful message. I would advise to ignore invalid statements and to only respond to valid statements from him.

Ok, I printed out your reply and will think on it.

This morning when I woke up I had a invitation to join his calendar in my inbox.

I do not want to share calendars again because recently he told me he had been talking to a psychiatrist over the phone for at least 8 weeks and that was not on his calendar. All my nurse practitioner appointments were on my medical calendar that I shared with him. I felt betrayed that he was not sharing with me what I was sharing with him and decided that sharing calendars was not a good idea anymore.

It makes think that if I have to use the BIFF response with my partner that perhaps he is not a good partner for me.

... .

I am confident that if I continue to work on my FOO issues, especially this all bad child false projection my FOO put on me I will be less reactive to my partner's hostile emails and eventually I may no longer want to be in a relationship with a hostile person.

The reason I referred to his email as an extinction burst is it is a reaction to me upholding my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

... .

I have to be the strong one and uphold my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

I could say the trouble I'm having with my partner today is because I am still allowing myself to have an (emotionally) intimate relationship with a married man.

I think what you say here is very important. A lot of this indeed also has to do with values, your boundaries for what is acceptable or not considering those values and the actions you take to defend your boundaries.

What you point out here indicates that a part of your own internal emotional struggle stems from the fact that you in some ways are going against your own values. Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

My partner told me that his divorce attorney told him he wasn't really  married. I know his wife moved out in July 2012. I think I don't so much have a problem with the fact that he is legally divorced but physically separated as I do with the fact he was murky/deceptive/evasive and the fact that he is a high conflict person/person with personality disorder traits. I feel like our relationship is like being pulled into quicksand and if it wasn't for this board, I wouldn't know what to do.

When I worked with both my 7 year and my 1 year therapist I would show them my partner's text and emails.

I think because of my father being narcissistic I am very vulnerable to my partner's disorder. I am hard wired to respond/react to his emails/texts. My strongest feeling about this relationship is that I need to continue to read books like Understanding the Borderline Mother, working my ACA program, and moving forward in my own personal recovery.

[unicorn2014]

Good Morning Unicorn,

I'll assume you've had very little sleep in light of last night's text messages.

Good Morning Caley,

I take a medication prescribed by a doctor to help me sleep, so I slept fine.

Firstly, it is important to get good quality sleep ... you know that. I have received these types of late night texts too and, as much as it was difficult to do, I put my phone on silent and resolved not to look at it prior to going to bed. Most people respect other peoples time and do not text, or communicate, in the late hours of the evening/night unless it is a dire emergency. So, anything coming through at these times is likely to be from the ratbag.

I put my phone in airplane mode when I sleep because I use an app called Sleep Cycle and I don't want the cell phone waves coming up through my pillow into my brain. My phone is automatically set to go into do not disturb mode at 9pm every night. My partner knows this. He wasn't expecting me them to read them at that hour of the night. Its actually good that I was able to type up that message to the board before going to bed because you and others have provided me with very helpful advice. I have not responded to those messages or acknowledged them. My partner and I had a different text exchange this morning.

He wrote at 12:05am which I did not respond to or read until this morning

Hi I am getting up

I can not sleep

I have sent you 2 calendar invites.

They are current.

Then later at a decent hour

When we are normalized we can make a joint one.

Hi & Good morning

I miss and love you very much 

To which I responded

Good morning . I love you too. I'm going to be working on getting a therapist this morning.

Reading through the initial texts, your ratbag appears to be behaving in a way that has been triggered by feelings of loss ... loss of whatever you provided. He sounds like he is putting his heart on the line (and he probably feels he is ... despite the fact he is a ratbag and behaves appallingly towards you). If you answer them in a negative way ... he gets to confirm his victim status and that you are the root of his misery. So, just think about whether you want him in your life, ever again, before responding. Personally, I'd resolve to remain completely silent and not answer but you have to follow what feels right to you.

I did not respond to those messages on Messenger.

Secondly, he is not interested in trying to offer you some comfort ... he is trying to make himself feel better in the moment and in the moments he was sending you texts. It isn't easy to garner attention at 2.39am because most people are asleep ... and you, it seems, are high on his list for potential supply. I think your decision not to respond is a strong one. However, you do write, 'right now' ... which is worrying because it implies that you might consider replying later should you succumb to any thoughts and feelings of responsibility, obligation or guilt. Clinically speaking ... he has got himself in this mess, he is an adult, and it is his responsibility to find a solution ... your responsibility is to yourself.

I wasn't sure what I should do about those messages which is why I posted them here as they alarmed me. I have not responded to them nor mentioned I even saw them or read them.

Thirdly, you are assuming he is sending these texts to 'reassure' you ... .why are you assuming this?

Because he is writing them as if I am worried that he is cheating on me and I am not.

Fourthly, he has given you information about his previous marriage in which he cheated twice (what evidence do you have that this is true ... and only twice? ... Ratbags lie. When he told you this ... can you remember how you felt about it? You also learned that he was cheating in his second marriage (little Johnny gets to do what he likes doesn't he?). Fidelity sounds like it is a 'must' for you ... so why stay involved with someone who, quite obviously, doesn't share your values?

He was married to the same woman twice, that is who he is divorcing now, and she confirmed for me that he had an emotional affair partner in their first marriage which he carried over into their second marriage. I have no confirmation on the physical affair partner, just his horrific stories he told me in the beginning of his relationship. Yes unicorn's partner has been able to do what he wanted, which is why I pointed out to him that he too had traits of narcissism, but he refuses to believe that, despite what my former/his current therapist had said about that. My partner's wife has let him get away with a lot of bad behavior including living in a foreign country without her for a couple of years. I would never ever tolerate that kind of behavior in my marriage.

Fifthly, I wouldn't consider it an extinction burst ... moreso, more of the same 'woe is me ... have pity on me ... look! I'm being torn apart (... poor thing, there there ... mummy put a plaster on it!).

That is interesting you said that because he wrote me an email yesterday about me not being a punitive parent.

This is punitive parent role theory is interesting  but it does not apply to us. I do not have punitive parents. Nor have you been turned into one by me. That is simply not my story nor do I see you as my parent. I am not looking for you to be the moral authority in our relationship. Nor am I seeking to be punished.  I was operating under idea that we are in an intimate relationship  partnership.

My ears prick up when I hear people say 'I never ... ' and 'I have never ... ' or, 'Not ever ... ' especially if they've not been accused of doing whatever it is that they are saying they have 'never' done.

Exactly my point which is why I brought those messages here, they made me nervous.

Evasive and deceptive behaviour is felt ... trust it. Ambiguity and vagueness in language is both evasive and can be deceptive too.

Actually I did not know he was being deceptive and evasive until I came here. I was fully naive with him and fully trusting with him. He was some kind of father figure to me (he is 16 years older) and it took a lot of help from the board to get to me recognize he was being deceptive. At first I couldn't even admit it to myself. And like I said he still denies being deceptive and evasive, as you saw.

"I have been very upfront with you about my intentions with you and for us" ... .(I have told you I have cheated before... upfront ... so I havent' been evasive or deceptive) ... "... and the actions I need to take or do to make that happen" ... ( I will take any action needed to carry on in this manner).

What he is talking about here is his intention to marry me. It was his intention to marry me from the very beginning, so that is what he is referring to. He maintains that he wasn't being deceptive or evasive about his divorce.

Again, if you respond to his texts in a negative manner ... he will get to be the victim again and get to call you abusive for being so mean ... (hanging up on me ... you big meanie you!).

I did not respond to his texts. He denies I am in the persecutor role as well, he says he doesn't feel persecuted. He thinks he has to believe something for it to be true (his deception/evasion, my punitive parent/persecutor role)

Don't believe a word ... his psychiatrist is bound by confidentially. So, whatever he tells you about what his psychiatrist has said ... you cannot verify ... so he can tell you whatever he wants ... and by telling you that his psychiatrist says that the clients problem is rooted in self worth ... will have you reaching for the tissues an trigger your saviour behaviour.

Yes he has done this before, he loves to tell me what his therapist or psychiatrist says and it drives me nuts. I'm really not interested in what his therapist or psychiatrist said, but if I say that, he'll accuse me of not caring about him.

The psychiatrist may very well be right ... and your SO may even be telling the truth in this instance ... but it is up to him, alone, to develop self-worth. Hahaha, he might find that he could gain a little self-worth if he stopped being such a ratbag... !

In this case he was referring to not valuing his own musical gifts and talents and not identifying with them.

I hope you have a better day today ... look after yourself (because he is incapable of it).

Bless you.

It is funny you say that because he always tells me he wants to take care of me, but his behavior from far away has shown he can't. Thank you for your response. I certainly don't feel good about my relationship right now.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, I'd say an expectation that he tell you about his psych appts is overly enmeshed and not a reasonable expectation unless he chooses to tell you--even if you were married. The fact that it's someone you referred him to does not change that--that person becomes his psychiatrist if he starts working with that person. These are the most private sensitive relationships. We may or may not share the fact that we're seeing mental health professionals with our partner at the outset or at all. I don't see him violating any healthy expectations on this point.

Yes patient and clear, I agree with you, however in this case it has do to with shared calendar expectations and the fact I was putting my medical appointments on mine and he was not putting his medical appointments on his. Furthermore he likes to make a big show of telling me that he only calls a therapist when he has something to talk about, that he uses a therapist to solve problems only, that he is going to call my former therapist/his current therapist to help him with my d15 and ex, etc. I'm all for not sharing personal health care information. That is not the point. The point is we did not have an equal level of disclosure, and that is why I feel hurt.

[unicorn2014]

If hearing from him that he misses you is intolerable, I think you need an actual break from this r/ship, explained in a kind fashion as you did before--to ensure he is not on the receiving end of toxic resentment from you. He is right, your (legitimate) resentment is coloring your response to everything he does, even innocuous, appropriate comments.

Then how do you suggest I tell him this? I do appreciate being able to talk to him, however the price of doing that is too expensive for me now.

FWIW it would not be offensive to me if my exH who went through batterer's treatment dug up something he heard in that class and offered it to me as an insight that might bear on my current situation. I'd appreciate that he listened in class and could apply the concepts in our lives going forward.

Because what he was saying was blaming me for his verbal abuse. Basically he was saying he verbally abused me because either he misunderstood something or said or probably more likely I was "putting stuff on him" (one of his favorite things to say) therefore that's why he got verbally abusive. Its blame shifting on his part.

I don't know why he's assuring you he isn't cheating. I agree he has cheated in the past. You are doing things now that will break your r/ship down one way or another, either because he cheats (not clear that you are in a committed r/ship according to you at this point, so not sure what that means), or he gives up, or he becomes a quivering pile of confused jello.

We are in a committed relationship. He has never cheated on me.

You've known he cheated in the past, including with you, for a long time. If your value is you won't be with someone who has cheated, so be it, but you crossed that decision point a long time ago with him. You CAN change your mind, but if that's a possibility, again, I urge you to take some genuine time off from your daily interactions with him to use your DBT skills to assess what you want and will be able to live with once you determine your course from here on.

He has not cheated on me. I don't consider his marriage to be cheating on me as he was never in love with his wife and I believe him. His wife was like a beard to him (a straight woman for a gay man), she allowed him to do his own thing without being bothered by other women. He's very introverted and was very work oriented in his marriage.

I wish there was some way I could tell him that his messages reassuring me he was faithful to me weren't reassuring at all, in fact they were having the opposite effect. If I thought he was cheating on me, I would leave. Maybe he thinks I think he's cheating on me with his wife and that's why he's saying that. I actually don't have a problem with the fact that he's married per se, its the fact that he proposed marriage to me while still married to his wife. I understand that people are physically separated but legally married for all kinds of reason: health insurance, church won't grant them an annulment, etc. If he had never proposed marriage to me we wouldn't be in this boat in the first place. Now if he was living with his wife, sure I would have a problem with that and it would be unacceptable to me, but he's not, and he hasn't since July 2012.

[unicorn2014]

I think Patient has a really good point about how you can change your mind when different conditions present or are made.

Reading the stuff he sends you... .boy my anxiety levels rise and i get mad at him  and I am not the person trying to cope. Point is, he is really working on you, has been doing so for ages, and this upset is saturating your life.

Your child is in crisis atm, and you are wearing out. I really want to encourage you to detach as much as you can right now.

I would personally ignore those texts. He's being a real pill and needs to get a grip on things.

Thank you Daniell85, I have not responded to those messages.

The ironic thing is he did text my d15 this morning and she was in a better mood.

I wonder if there is a grain of truth that my taking a time out from facetime and my taking a step back did destabilize the family.

Yet that is the point of attack last night, that he only feels valued by me for what he can contribute to my d15.

A long time ago a man who was interested in dating me, old enough to be my father, older then my current partner, told me there are 3 phases in one's love life. The lust years, when you are in your 20s and before you have kids, the child rearing years, which I am in now, and the companionship years, after you raise your kids.

I have made it clear to my partner no matter what relationship I was in, my d15 was my first priority.

Prior to my coming to BPD family, my partner would attack me for making my d15 my first priority. In fact my longest therapist said that my partner was jealous of my d15. I've read about this phenomenon in Understanding the Borderline Mother.

The reason why my issues are so complicated is I have disordered parents, so my partner is feeding into a whole web of dysfunction.

My d15 genuinely likes my partner, as does my mother. In fact the other night my mother texted me and asked me if my partner had seen a recent sports event.

[unicorn2014]

You seem to be very aware of your feelings... .  noticing your feelings and honoring the feelings you have of needing to back away ahead of time... .  Helps prevent yourself from reacting vs coming from a place of wise mind.  I wonder what self care you need to do for yourself to help prevent your desires to respond when you believe you may be reacting... .so that you are caring for your emotional needs ahead of time, before engaging?

I do not know right now Sunflower, I wish there was a way I could tell my partner that his emotional demands are wearing me out. My partner's father even told me that my partner needed a lot of love. My partner knows he is difficult and needs a lot.

I wish I could be honest with my partner and tell him how I feel when he sends me messages like the ones he sent me last night.

I really feel like my partner is treating me like a supply like another poster said.

My partner vehemently denies being narcissistic, in fact he likes to take online tests to prove to me that he is not narcissistic, but who else uses another person as a supply?

I'm worn out and frustrated that I can't be honest with my partner without him going ballistic.

[Sunfl0wer]

I do not know right now Sunflower, I wish there was a way I could tell my partner that his emotional demands are wearing me out.

That is the point of boundaries.  (They do not need to be communicated to him)

It is your job to take care of your needs.  It is your job to ensure you do not allow yourself to get worn out.

This is important!

[unicorn2014]

I do not know right now Sunflower, I wish there was a way I could tell my partner that his emotional demands are wearing me out.

That is the point of boundaries.  (They do not need to be communicated to him)

It is your job to take care of your needs.  It is your job to ensure you do not allow yourself to get worn out.

Then it sounds like I need to define a value/boundary for myself around the emotional demands he is placing on me and I do not know how to do that. He is looking for reassurance and security and supplication from me around the clock. I don't have that kind of energy to give to him. I need him to learn how to self soothe without my help and without attacking me for not being there for him.

It is true what another poster said, my d15 is in crisis right now and the last thing I need is my partner pushing my buttons, yanking my chain, getting a reaction/ rise out of me... .

[Sunfl0wer]

I feel like it must be a natural desire to want to lean on our partners especially in times of crisis.  It feels natural to want to reach out to those close to us when we feel hurt or vulnerable... .yet many persons are unable to be emotionally available for our needs.  This is pretty crummy!

I am not so good as many with the boundary setting stuff.  However, rather than starting with HIS behavior(placing emotional demands), why not start with your own needs? 

It sounds like you may be expressing that your concerns with d15 are a priority right now over actions you may (or may not) want to take in assisting your SO to soothe.  (Idk, I'm guessing here and just going with that to finish my example... .which hopefully you can change to suit you)

Maybe a boundary can be to block off time to attend to matters with d15 without interruption?  Idk, you may know better how you are dividing your actions... .to see where you can adjust things. 

If you do decide to switch gears from giving him attention to tend to something d15 related... .

Maybe a kind way to state this:

I wish I had energy to discuss this further with you.  Quite honestly, I am feeling drained from giving so much attention to several important matters.  I realize you may expect me to be there for you right now, and I honestly wish I had it in me to be.  However, I need to switch gears so that I can focus on my issues with d15 as she needs me right now. I'm going to go spend some time alone preparing my thoughts to speak with her later.  Let's chat a bit later.

[unicorn2014]

I feel like it must be a natural desire to want to lean on our partners especially in times of crisis.  It feels natural to want to reach out to those close to us when we feel hurt or vulnerable... .yet many persons are unable to be emotionally available for our needs.  This is pretty crummy!

I am not so good as many with the boundary setting stuff.  However, rather than starting with HIS behavior(placing emotional demands), why not start with your own needs? 

It sounds like you may be expressing that your concerns with d15 are a priority right now over actions you may (or may not) want to take in assisting your SO to soothe.  (Idk, I'm guessing here and just going with that to finish my example... .which hopefully you can change to suit you)

Maybe a boundary can be to block off time to attend to matters with d15 without interruption?  Idk, you may know better how you are dividing your actions... .to see where you can adjust things. 

If you do decide to switch gears from giving him attention to tend to something d15 related... .

Maybe a kind way to state this:

I wish I had energy to discuss this further with you.  Quite honestly, I am feeling drained from giving so much attention to several important matters.  I realize you may expect me to be there for you right now, and I honestly wish I had it in me to be.  However, I need to switch gears so that I can focus on my issues with d15 as she needs me right now. I'm going to go spend some time alone preparing my thoughts to speak with her later.  Let's chat a bit later.

Hi Sunflower, my d15 is at school right now and I'm just tired and worn out in general. I got another email from my partner.

Keep in mind yesterday he told me I was abusive and needed to get help.

Hello Sugar Boo

As I am thinking about our lives (because of what I am working on)... .I thought I would pass on a few things

In my life no one has effected me more then you have. The external impact you have contributed to who I am is amazing.

I will say that you are the love of my life, no one has ever ever held the position you hold. My love for you is not a feeling, though I do hold feels for you but

the love I have for you is a perspective of the on going outward care and concern of another individual. We have struggled greatly together and it is my belief that the ones you struggle with the most are the ones you love as it creates deep roots and bonds.

I have bonded with you and you filled a space no one could fill until we met.

Which means I can never be with another but you. It as though a chemical event happened in my brain and I bonded like a duck

I am a changed person because of us. I am your faithful and loyal partners who adores and cherishes you.

Thank you for challenging me and pushing me out of my comfort zone. In this way I find our relationship very magical as it causes me to grow

Thank you for being who you are

I love you

He has sent me opposing messages in less then 24 hours, but if I were to point this out to him he would attack me.

I'm really at a loss for what to do here. I'm no longer moved by his outpouring of love because of how he treats me when I am triggered.

I don't share his feelings. I feel like I could bond with someone else.

I do not have the energy to respond to his email.

I am currently trying to secure a new therapist for myself.

I am preparing to talk to the high school guidance counselor and deal with what is going on with my d15.

I don't share the same magical feelings my partner has.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunflower, my d15 is at school right now and I'm just tired and worn out in general. I got another email from my partner.

Keep in mind yesterday he told me I was abusive and needed to get help.

He has sent me opposing messages in less then 24 hours, but if I were to point this out to him he would attack me.

You are probably right, trust your instincts. No need to point this out to him.

I'm really at a loss for what to do here. I'm no longer moved by his outpouring of love because of how he treats me when I am triggered.

I certainly would prefer my partner and I have mutual understanding of things, especially in regards to our r/s.  However, that is simply not going to be the case always... .and less likely with a pwPD. 

I don't hear anything that you need to do.  He can have his reality and perspective.  You can have yours. 

He is likely not going to be a reliable person to turn to when you are feeling triggered.  Is this the case?

From my readings over on the staying board... .pwPD do not do well when their partners are ill, stressed, or otherwise needing of support.  They tend to do poorly.  Unfortunately, Many non's typically need to find other ways to get many needs met which are independent of their partner.

I don't share his feelings. I feel like I could bond with someone else.

Again, sounds like a difference of perspectives, that is ok, you both are entitled to your own perspectives.

I do not have the energy to respond to his email.

I don't share the same magical feelings my partner has.

Sounds like you are clear that responding is not best for you.  Do what you feel you need to to take care of yourself... .no apologies needed. Honor, respect, care for these feelings of lack of energy and your own perspective.  (On your own... .as that is reliable) It may be loving to explain to him that you are exhausted and going to rest and put your attention to matters going on in your home for now... .and will check in with him_____(some later time)___.

[unicorn2014]

He is likely not going to be a reliable person to turn to when you are feeling triggered.  Is this the case?

What happened yesterday is that he referenced something that one of my former therapist/one of his current therapists said to him when he called him for help with verbally abusing me. Of course that triggered me. It has been suggested to me that I write an email to my partner to clarify my feelings. I think I could work on that one issue, of why I was triggered yesterday. He was using advice his therapist gave him to help me with my d15. It didn't work for me. I hung up on him.

I also hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been working with one of my former psychiatrists for 8 weeks over the phone without telling me. When I asked him why he didn't tell me he said it was because I wasn't approachable. This bothers me on at least two levels. One, we were sharing calendars and I took it on good faith that his was accurate. Two, he spent at least $2K on this psychiatrist and yet he told me he could not afford to pay for a therapist to oversee a therapeutic separation. If we were married I would be very upset if he spent $2K without telling me.

If the board thought it was a good idea I could write an email to him stating why I got upset yesterday and the previous day when I hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been talking to a psychiatrist for 8 weeks and not telling me.

From my readings over on the staying board... .pwPD do not do well when their partners are ill, stressed, or otherwise needing of support.  They tend to do poorly.  Unfortunately, Many non's typically need to find other ways to get many needs met which are independent of their partner.

Yes I hear you and I have a parental stress line to talk to. The ironic thing is my partner gets offended when I turn to the parental stress line instead of him but I think they are going to have to be my first line of defense every time my d15 gets in trouble. I had done a good job of calling them on Saturday but because I wasn't expecting my d15 to get in trouble on Sunday too I was caught off guard and turned to my partner first. That is one thing I can change today. The parental stress line is open 24 hours a day.

I don't share his feelings. I feel like I could bond with someone else.

Again, sounds like a difference of perspectives, that is ok, you both are entitled to your own perspectives.

I have a rule for myself that I would allow half the relationship time to recover before I got into a new one, and since we've been in a relationship for 3.75 years that would be at least 1.5 years recovery time. So what I am saying is I could leave this relationship, recover, and have another one. I don't feel like I've bonded with him like a duck (they are monogamous and pair bond for life).

I do not have the energy to respond to his email.

I don't share the same magical feelings my partner has.

Sounds like you are clear that responding is not best for you.  Do what you feel you need to to take care of yourself... .no apologies needed. Honor, respect, care for these feelings of lack of energy and your own perspective.  (On your own... .as that is reliable) It may be loving to explain to him that you are exhausted and going to rest and put your attention to matters going on in your home for now... .and will check in with him_____(some later time)___.

Yes, I was able to do that without responding to those messages or emails so I feel like I am standing on solid ground for the moment.

I think what another member suggested a few days ago about defining what kind of relationship I am trying to achieve and why should he and I want that and what it includes and then listing what goes away and then discussing that in a mature and compassionate manner was good advice.

I don't think I'm trying to achieve a different kind of relationship. I think what I was/am trying to do is reduce the amount of contact I have with my partner until I see him from him, his attorney or the court that he has filed for divorce.

If the board thinks its prudent I can write him an email stating why I hung up on him yesterday and the other day.

I am truly worn out, I don't really have the energy for a high conflict relationship or a relationship with a pwBPD so I don't know what to do because that is what I have right now.

Things are at peace with my partner right now but he could go off the rails at any moment and ask me why I didn't respond to his email or his messages and then I would be in trouble. He said he would check in with me before he goes to sleep and I'm fine with that so I guess its up to me to uphold that boundary even if he tries to break it.

I was fine with morning and evening check ins by phone until I saw he filed for divorce.

I suppose I could restate my boundary for him.

I also was fine with calling him if there was a crisis with my d15.

I also don't know how important he is to my d15. She seems to really want things to work out between us and she does seem to behave better when they interact by text.

I'm not sure what to think right now. I am getting support to help me with my d15 and I do have some of the books from the parenting section checked out from the library and on my shelf right now.

=============

He just texted me to tell me he missed me. That's where I have the real problem. I have been told that if someone tells me they miss me and it makes me angry its time to detach in a serious way.

I wouldn't so much say I feel angry right now as I do annoyed and irritated. We had an agreement that we would check in by phone at 6/9 and its only 2:30/5:30.

Its 2:30 in the afternoon. I don't miss him. I have to get things done. My bike has a flat and I have to take it into the shop to get a new tire and the brake pads changed. I'm not thinking about my partner right now. He lives 2K miles away.

He's in the basement alone working on a sound design project. Its not my fault he's chosen to isolate himself. He always talks about being an introvert and how he doesn't need anyone but me.

I can't validate him and say I miss you too, because as I've stated many times, all of our interactions took place when he flew out here to stay with me in my apartment. I don't miss him being here. I share a 2BDR apt with my d15.

Of course I can't tell him any of that because he would get hurt and offended. So I'm just ignoring him for now as we have a planned phone meeting in 3.5 hours.

I guess I'm going to have to talk to him about not texting me in the middle of the day when we have agreed to talk on the phone at the end of the day. I'm really not looking forward to that conversation.

That would fall under what relationship I am trying to achieve and why he and I should want that and what does it include and listing what goes away.

So I guess I have my task in front of me.

What relationship am I trying to achieve?

Oh boy. Not fun.

[unicorn2014]

Update: I was able to respond to his I miss you with this:

I am happy to report [d15] just arrived, before I had a chance to leave . Thank you for your part in that.

This is what I got in return

ex nihilo nihil fit

I had to look that up.

That got my blood boiling.

What am I supposed to do with that?

I was trying to make an effort to connect to him after he tried to connect to me and he responds with that.

It is no wonder I am in my emotional mind with that kind of provocation.

[Sunfl0wer]

He is likely not going to be a reliable person to turn to when you are feeling triggered.  Is this the case?

What happened yesterday is that he referenced something that one of my former therapist/one of his current therapists said to him when he called him for help with verbally abusing me. Of course that triggered me. It has been suggested to me that I write an email to my partner to clarify my feelings. I think I could work on that one issue, of why I was triggered yesterday. He was using advice his therapist gave him to help me with my d15. It didn't work for me. I hung up on him.

I also hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been working with one of my former psychiatrists for 8 weeks over the phone without telling me. When I asked him why he didn't tell me he said it was because I wasn't approachable. This bothers me on at least two levels. One, we were sharing calendars and I took it on good faith that his was accurate. Two, he spent at least $2K on this psychiatrist and yet he told me he could not afford to pay for a therapist to oversee a therapeutic separation. If we were married I would be very upset if he spent $2K without telling me.

If the board thought it was a good idea I could write an email to him stating why I got upset yesterday and the previous day when I hung up on him when he revealed to me that he had been talking to a psychiatrist for 8 weeks and not telling me.

I cannot imagine that turning towards him when you are felling triggered will help.  It appears that when you are feeling triggered, that you are more inclined to reacting vs responding from a place of wise mind.

Feeling upset, then responding by hanging up, may be perceived as emotionally abusive. 

I believe that you would benefit from politely withdrawing yourself from the conversation BEFORE you get to a place of feeling triggered.  While I realize there may be a desire to lean on our partners for support, I wonder if RA is needed here to accept that with your SO, you cannot rely on him in such times.  Instead, you need to pull away before you feel too emotionally triggered and apply some self care on your own, or with the help of someone else. 

Do you find your SO generally helpful when he has a different opinion and you are feeling triggered?

Generally pwPD have issues of their own emotional regulation so dealing with our emotional triggers... .well, they simply are not suited to do so.  Do you think your is more capable than most in this regard?

Stating why you got upset is likely a good way for YOU to sort your own feelings out... .consider not sending tho.  I suggest that they are your feelings to deal with and the more you can sort out your feelings without him, then there will be one less stressor between you two. 

From my readings over on the staying board... .pwPD do not do well when their partners are ill, stressed, or otherwise needing of support.  They tend to do poorly.  Unfortunately, Many non's typically need to find other ways to get many needs met which are independent of their partner.

Yes I hear you and I have a parental stress line to talk to.

Great!

The ironic thing is my partner gets offended when I turn to the parental stress line instead of him but I think they are going to have to be my first line of defense every time my d15 gets in trouble. I had done a good job of calling them on Saturday but because I wasn't expecting my d15 to get in trouble on Sunday too I was caught off guard and turned to my partner first. That is one thing I can change today. The parental stress line is open 24 hours a day.

This is a good boundary.

If your value is that you will not be co-parenting with a SO who is currently married, you instead will rely on others for support when needed so as not to complicate roles/responsibilities, and to be a  model to your D to not rely on a married man for such things... .(Or however you want to state this to accurately reflect your values) Well then calling the stress line or another is something you have control over.

If he responds upset, that is not your business to soothe.   You can choose to uphold your boundary in the face of expecting him to not like it.  You also do not have to share with him the value and/or boundary.

I think what another member suggested a few days ago about defining what kind of relationship I am trying to achieve and why should he and I want that and what it includes and then listing what goes away and then discussing that in a mature and compassionate manner was good advice.

I don't think I'm trying to achieve a different kind of relationship. I think what I was/am trying to do is reduce the amount of contact I have with my partner until I see him from him, his attorney or the court that he has filed for divorce.

If the board thinks its prudent I can write him an email stating why I hung up on him yesterday and the other day.

I think part of the reason given for reducing the contact was to reduce the daily conflict.  I do not see a reduction of the conflict however.   There is little to build on for this relationship until things dial back more significantly in conflict.  It is not enough to minimize the contact, if there is still daily conflict over matters.

I think anyone would feel worn out if the conflict out weighs the lovingness for a period of time.

Do you feel that you two are able to have significantly greater loving and supportive exchanges greater than the conflicts presented?  Or is there more conflict happening than loving support for one another?

I suppose I could restate my boundary for him.

Your boundary is YOURS to uphold.  You do not need to restate anything.  You do not need his permission or cooperation.  It is your job... .not his. You are in charge of your boundaries.

I guess I'm going to have to talk to him about not texting me in the middle of the day when we have agreed to talk on the phone at the end of the day. I'm really not looking forward to that conversation.

That would fall under what relationship I am trying to achieve and why he and I should want that and what does it include and listing what goes away.

His texting is not a problem.

How it makes you feel is a problem.

Sounds like you feel FOG. 

Why not simply text back, "sorry, can't txt right now, in the middle of stuff and need to focus, talk later tonight."

[flourdust]

It sounds like you've tried all kinds of approaches to reducing the frequency and triggering effect of phone calls, emails, and texts. Some boundaries, some rules ... .some he may have said he agreed with, others he did not.

But the result has been that is walking all over those boundaries and rules. It seems that he calls, texts, and emails whenever he likes, about whatever topic he likes.

You could write him an email or call him to explain what is bothering you or what rules you want to have. His actions to date show that, regardless, he'll just walk all over them. You're giving him supply by responding, especially when you've said you wouldn't. That shows him he has control -- he can push your buttons and make you jump.

The only solution I see is to ignore all calls, emails, and texts other than those YOU have decided you want to respond to at the times you want to respond to them. Ignore them. Don't respond (or react) at all. If you want to text him once daily at 6 PM to say how your day is going, then do so, and ignore all the other crap he sends your way. If you want to go NC until you get the proof of divorce filing, then ignore everything but that proof.

He'll act out ... .but who cares? You can be strong enough to ignore all that, rather than jumping when he pushes the buttons. Eventually, he'll get the message.

[unicorn2014]

I believe that you would benefit from politely withdrawing yourself from the conversation BEFORE you get to a place of feeling triggered.  While I realize there may be a desire to lean on our partners for support, I wonder if RA is needed here to accept that with your SO, you cannot rely on him in such times.  Instead, you need to pull away before you feel too emotionally triggered and apply some self care on your own, or with the help of someone else. 

Do you find your SO generally helpful when he has a different opinion and you are feeling triggered?

No, we tend to argue at times like that.

Generally pwPD have issues of their own emotional regulation so dealing with our emotional triggers... .well, they simply are not suited to do so.  Do you think your is more capable than most in this regard?

Probably not.

Stating why you got upset is likely a good way for YOU to sort your own feelings out... .consider not sending tho.  I suggest that they are your feelings to deal with and the more you can sort out your feelings without him, then there will be one less stressor between you two. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one and I have to say because I have been sticking to my boundary of only morning and evening phone calls and no facetime, I actually find myself missing him tonight.

This is a good boundary.

If your value is that you will not be co-parenting with a SO who is currently married, you instead will rely on others for support when needed so as not to complicate roles/responsibilities, and to be a  model to your D to not rely on a married man for such things... .(Or however you want to state this to accurately reflect your values) Well then calling the stress line or another is something you have control over.

I have to work on this one. Its not so much that he's a married man, its that I don't want to restore things until I see from him, his attorney or the county website that he's filed, if that makes sense.

Do you feel that you two are able to have significantly greater loving and supportive exchanges greater than the conflicts presented?  Or is there more conflict happening than loving support for one another?

Today for the first time since I have set this boundary with him I actually missed him. I witnessed my d15 venting to him on the phone while I went outside and put air in my tire. I know my d15 is wondering why I'm not face timing him. I guess tonight is the first night I'm having a hard time sticking to my boundary, but I'm not going to break it. I think in the morning I will be able to tell him I really missed him last night and I'm looking forward to him filing his divorce so we can go back to normal.

His texting is not a problem.

How it makes you feel is a problem.

Sounds like you feel FOG. 

Why not simply text back, "sorry, can't txt right now, in the middle of stuff and need to focus, talk later tonight."

I was able to ask him today to please not message me between 10pm and 6am PST when he knows I am sleeping. I told him it was upsetting to me to get those messages in the middle of the night and that if he had something to say to me could he please say it to me while I was awake. That seemed to have helped because now I actually find myself missing him and wanting him to get this whole thing over with.

Other members had said if I took a time out I might actually find myself missing him and that has happened, finally, after all this time.

[thisagain]

I see it differently. It's true that he has been deceptive and his inability to validate that for you is undoubtedly salt in the wound. But that is also a known longstanding issue in this r/ship and my understanding is that you are taking time to reflect on what that means for you going forward, meanwhile trying not to shred what is good between you in a series of reactions to your bad feelings about this.

Beyond that, so far as I can tell, the guy misses what you were doing before the issue of the divorce changed your pattern. That's a pretty straightforward sentiment and is understandable. It could move him down the road to rectify the divorce situation--it is not a bad sentiment.

If hearing from him that he misses you is intolerable, I think you need an actual break from this r/ship, explained in a kind fashion as you did before--to ensure he is not on the receiving end of toxic resentment from you. He is right, your (legitimate) resentment is coloring your response to everything he does, even innocuous, appropriate comments.

I think Skip is right that there will be no r/ship if you don't protect it from this impulse to chip away and attack him. If I were him there is NO WAY I could anticipate some of your expectations.

... .

I urge you to take some genuine time off from your daily interactions with him to use your DBT skills to assess what you want and will be able to live with once you determine your course from here on.

Hi Unicorn,

I want to second (or third?) all of this and I hope you consider it carefully!

I think sharing calendars is not a good idea precisely because it gives both of you more insignificant little things to quibble over.

Also I want to repeat my suggestion of no relationship talk. Do not write that e-mail you've been thinking of writing. There is nothing good that can come out of you two arguing over who is or is not a punitive parent, who's emotionally abusive, who needs a therapist, why you were triggered, etc. Like I've said before, I think his e-mail has some valid points. But I hear that you are not ready to really think about it, and that's okay. It's totally understandable in the context of you realizing the divorce situation and how much the situation contradicts your values.

It seems like we're getting back into the territory where you're mad at him for calling you sweetie or calling himself your mate. In isolation those are nice things to say. The problem is the context of his divorce and your increasing realization of your values surrounding the divorce. You're now perceiving him as a married man, and you've realized you don't want to be in a sweetie-mate-I-miss-you relationship with a married man. That's fine, but trying to keep up this level of communication with him while you are feeling this triggered (and in the past, trying to get him to predict what will trigger you and stop doing it) is slowly chipping away at your relationship.

I don't think you're ever going to get away from love-bombing and cycling between love-bombing and devaluation, assuming he does have BPD. The project for later on will be to control your own emotional reactions to be able to stay in the middle while he goes back and forth between idealized love-bombing and devaluing. But again, you're not ready to do that, that's perfectly legitimate, but you need to back away from the relationship until you are.

I know you've been on the Staying board for a while... .what have you learned there about what it takes to be happy in a relationship with a pwBPD?

[unicorn2014]

I think sharing calendars is not a good idea precisely because it gives both of you more insignificant little things to quibble over.

I will keep that in mind. I stopped sharing mine after he stopped sharing his. He's trying to get me to accept his calendars again but I don't want to. I'm not interested in going through that again. He is always free to share with me what he is doing.

Like I've said before, I think his e-mail has some valid points. But I hear that you are not ready to really think about it, and that's okay. It's totally understandable in the context of you realizing the divorce situation and how much the situation contradicts your values.

Fair enough, I'm interested to know which points are valid. Here it is again in its entirety.

Hi

i need to wake up in the morning  and know I am not going to hear things like "if you want to be in a relationship  with me... ." I Need our relationship not to be continually

threaten when you don't like something.

I need to know the person who claims to be my partner is committed to the relationship and your commitment to the relationship ship is not based on the mood you are in.

I also expect to to get your projecting under control.

You put yourself on me and you continually paint me over with your past relationships and current ones. I have talked to three therapist about this.

I have spent a small future in what I call subtractive diagnosis which

Means I found out what  I don't have based in exploring with a therapist the things you have told me I have.

Further I  am looking to see  you to deal with the spiritual cancer of resentment that you had before I meant you and you brought into our relationship when I disappointed you and you discovered I am not perfect.

I also am looking for you to stop rewriting our history to reflect your current view point.

I am looking to see that the person who claims to be my partner starts acting like one.

I am finally I am  looking to see to start caring more about how you treat others and less about how they treat you.

I don't think you're ever going to get away from love-bombing and cycling between love-bombing and devaluation, assuming he does have BPD. The project for later on will be to control your own emotional reactions to be able to stay in the middle while he goes back and forth between idealized love-bombing and devaluing. But again, you're not ready to do that, that's perfectly legitimate, but you need to back away from the relationship until you are.

A couple of points here, he doesn't think he has BPD, he thinks his problem is not mattering to himself. I am ready to work on controlling my emotional reactions. I'm tired of being so reactive. Its exhausting.

[EaglesJuju]

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