Working MY issue

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm seeing a really strong pattern. I've decided I need to work on my issue, which greatly involves standing up for myself, being more assertive, and working harder on not letting the actions of others bother me so much.

The pattern is that I've let a lot of people treat me badly. Not because I thought I deserved it(heck no!), but because I got worn down, and was raised to be "nice, perhaps. My first husband had anger issues, and I strongly suspect he was gay. The anger thing was hardest to deal with, and I took too much from him. After he left he had the nerve to come over and ask me why I put up with it so long(ironic, as HE left me). He admitted to our divorce judge that he had bad anger issues, although to me, he'd always denied it.

Then came BPDh, and I actually had no idea he had anger issues, as he hid them. Plus, and this is a biggie, my kids, by my first husband, have inherited(or learned) the whole anger thing. My kids are now 17 and 20, and yesterday was a bad day for me, even though it was my daughter's birthday. Same pattern, she got upset at me over something trivial(time we left the house to go celebrate her birthday, and it was beyond my control), and she takes her anger out of me the entire car ride, and I try acting conciliatory, and of course that does not work. I point out how we've had a nice day, and lets make the best of things, and can she please stop the negativity, and try to stay upbeat.

The problem is that I'm tired of this. I'm tired of keeping things together, and beyond tired of being people's emotional target. I guess I've taught them that it's okay to treat me that way? I've definitely told them it's not, and I have stood up against it at times, but they just keep coming. My daughter is actually the worse that way, maybe due to her OCD. She feels it's okay to take her anger out on me, and she justifies the disrespect and anger. That scares me for her future. If she marries, and she does that to her spouse, they won't like it any more than it do! She's beautiful, she's smart, but she's mean.

I need to fix this in myself before I have a breakdown. I'm trying to be there and be supportive of BPDh, because he's going through stuff right now, but no one is there for ME. I'm strong, I can do this, but I just don't know where to start. I'm done being the one in the TRIANGLE that everyone else takes their upset out on. I'm done being the fixer, the "think positive" one, the peacemaker.

I've tried boundaries, and have currently set one with my daughter, but she's railing against it, so maybe I'm doing it wrong? I know boundaries are meant to protect US, not punish others. I'm also of the mind though, that I WILL NOT REWARD bad behavior. It's amazing that my kids are like they are, because I've always parented this way. Here's what happened for me to set a boundary: BPDh made special plans to take me to a movie I'd been wanting to see. I'd been a good sport and went with my kids and BPDh to Star Wars, which I HATE, and they'd already seen. Well, the movie I'd wanted to see was about done playing. My daughter said she didn't want to go, but changed her mind last minute. She'd wanted to see a different movie, but I thought she'd made peace with it because she knew this was sort of a date thing BPDh was doing with me. Well, she got rude and angry at me after we'd got snacks and had our tickets, all behind BPDh's back. She made such an ugly thing of it, that we ended up leaving the theater. She still thinks it's okay that she ruined our special evening, and she even wanted us to leave her so she could actually watch HER movie, and come back to pick her up. We said NO, of course.

Here's where my boundary comes in. I told her I would not go with her to see HER movie after she'd ruined my seeing my movie, and ruined our outing with her anger and rudeness. I won't reward bad behavior, and MY not going with her to her movie is about ME, and it's my boundary.

She's got me questioning, because she's saying I'm doing it to punish her(I'm not), and she's saying I'm holding a grudge(also not doing that). I feel everyone tries to make me question myself or guilts me into backing down, and this time I won't.

I don't want to see her movie, and she made me miss out on seeing mine, and now it's not even playing. My boundary is about ME.

This is one example, but my life is chaotic due to all the angry people around me. Angry, moody people, with BPDh and my daughter being less so, but she's still not a walk in the park. Her OCD is off the charts, and she won't seek help. I'm in therapy, and working on ME, but I feel I'd be fine, in fact I AM fine when I'm alone, and don't have to deal with this crap. I always have someone mad at me. That's not much of an exaggeration, either.

It's exhausting, and I feel like checking myself into the stress unit, just to get a break from all the anger. Plus, more trouble has been coming from BPDh's family, and all this has just come to a head.

What are some steps I can take? I have therapy in an hour or so, and want to come up with a plan there too... .I deserve some peace.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[TheRealJongoBong]

I had a really hard time with boundaries at first because it seemed like I required complete cooperation of the person who was stepping all over me. Slowly I figured out that my true boundaries are for myself. My first one was that I was no longer going to take the emotional abuse from my wife. From that point on she could try all she wanted but I simply was not going to buy into it.

I see that in your post:

I'm done being the one in the TRIANGLE that everyone else takes their upset out on.

Good on you! They're still going to do the same angry BS, nobody can stop that. But now I suspect you're just going to roll your eyes a little and move on.

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm going to attempt to just roll my eyes(internally, of course), and let it roll off me.

I was feeling really good in therapy dealing with all this, and getting ideas, but it seemed my therapist sort of changed tactics towards the end of the session. Before that it was about strong boundaries, and actual coping techniques to get me out of these situations. The last ten minutes though, she said a lot of my statements towards my daughter sound defensive, which isn't surprising to me, because I feel I'm often trying to talk her down from being angry or upset at me. I try not to JADE, but I do end up often trying to cajole her into letting things go, and to have a better "mood", or to stop taking out her anger on me. Does that make me defensive? Maybe. I guess to me, defensive is trying to justify or explain why you've done something, and I try not to do that, although I can't say I never do.

The therapist suggested that I offer to help my daughter more, and just be really kind, but I feel it's exactly those behaviors that have led to me being treated this way. To me, this just sounds like I'll get more of the same. It feels like tiptoeing around her anger, and projecting onto me. I liked the therapists first suggestions more, of walking away when my daughter is mad, and having boundaries. Because this feels like being proactive, instead of heaping on kindness in the face of blame and anger(which I've always done, and it HAS NOT worked).

I'm sort of more confused after therapy than I was before... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Also, my therapist suggested that my daughter and I come in for a session together, so we can work on making things better. I asked my daughter about it when I got home, and she is refusing to go. I told her it's not about blame, it's about us both feeling better, and improving our relationship. The therapist did say that it's likely that my daughter does not feel bad about how she's treating me, because it works for her, and now I'm seeing that she has little motivation to work on things.

I told her it's not going to be a blame session, and that I want us to have a healthier relationship. The therapist pointed out that it is not good for my daughter to be allowed to treat me that way, and that some day she'll likely treat a mate this way. I've always thought about this, and it's been a worry for me.

My daughter is a psych major, yet she doesn't want to take any ownership of her actions. She just wants to blame me, and keep disrespecting me, and she sees not reason why I can't just put up with it. She actually said something to that effect! That I'm imagining all this, but I know I'm not. Other people have seen it, my Mom for one, and BPDh. They both say she's acting very immature for a girl of 20, and I'd have to agree.

I was really thinking a therapy session would be very beneficial, but seems my daughter has sole veto power. She lives in my home, is not asked to do anything, and she can't even be nice to me? She can't even attend one therapy session?

I'm just stumped now, and I'm getting sort of angry at her. Her constant venting her anger at me is driving a wedge, and making me fear being around her. I love her, but I feel she's mean, and just because I'm her Mother does not mean I have to keep being verbally abused, and that is what this is.

I'm going to attempt to let this all roll off me from now on, but I still feel like I'm not far from blowing off some steam the next time my daughter goes off on a tangent on me. I definitely am not up to the whole "just be extra kind and helpful" bit the therapist suggested.

[TheRealJongoBong]

I'm going to attempt to let this all roll off me from now on, but I still feel like I'm not far from blowing off some steam the next time my daughter goes off on a tangent on me. I definitely am not up to the whole "just be extra kind and helpful" bit the therapist suggested.

I'm obviously not close enough to your situation to know the particulars, but it seems to me that being "extra kind and helpful" to a person with a repeated history of anger abuse is just enabling them. Is your daughter seeing a therapist at all? Her behaviors from how you describe them sound eerily familiar to your husband's.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, I have to agree with you on this tactic seems "enabling", and likely to earn me more of the same. The therapist gave me an example of how her son and her used to battle before he'd head off to his Dad's for the weekend, and her second husband pointed out the possibly her son needed to be mad at her before he felt okay leaving her. So, instead of battling him, she no longer took the bait, and was extra kind and helpful to him, even in the face of his snarkiness. That makes sense to me, but I DO NOT feel my daughter's behavior is for the same reasons, so this tactic wouldn't work for me.

I've tried being kind when she's in one of her angry moods. It doesn't help. I've tried walking away(this is most effective of all tactics), and I've tried telling her that her behavior and treatment of me is not okay.

And you are right, some of my daughters behaviors are similar to BPDh's except I'm pretty sure my daughter is not BPD. She's moody, has some anger issues, but I don't feel she has the skewed thinking or impulsivity issues, or other issues I deal with with BPDh. I'm sure she has some social anxiety, and she's even said as much herself. It's getting better since she now has two jobs, and she's had to be more social. She's also in college full time, and I think all this has set off her OCD. She gets stressed and nervous, and she gets in an OCD loop. I think he taking her anger out of me is a stress relief for her.

She's talked about going to therapy, but she won't actually do it for some reason. Plus, she has refused to do the one therapy session with me that my therapist suggested. I really thought she'd do it, but she won't. I told her it's to make our relationship better, that there won't be any blame. Still no.

I guess I'm back to walking away when I can. The problem is she does a lot of this acting out when we are in the car(I'm a captive audience for her anger), or when we are out somewhere. My therapist did say I need to set ground rules for her going with me, and to get BPDh on board with this too. If she gets disrespectful or rude, take her home. Sad that we have to resort to this with a 20 year old. I hate to do that, but I also hate being driven to distraction or tears because my daughter won't stop berating me or shooting daggers at me with her eyes.

I just wish everyone I lived with was way more chill.

[Notwendy]

CB, you are spending a lot of money and time for this therapist's advice. I am wondering if you are willing to let her coach you? To consider her advice even if it doesn't make sense to you. You know how to do things your way, and the results of that are what you are dealing with, with your H and kids. Continuing to do things the way you think is right is likely to lead to more of the same. Doing something different may lead to different results. While it isn't a good idea to take any advice from anyone, it is probably a good idea to consider expert advice. We seek out professionals for this all the time, and yes, they are not always right, but we seek them out in general because, they have expert knowledge, and we don't.

With regards to the pushing on a parent to separate, this happens. What the teen/young adult needs is a parent with good healthy boundaries to push against. A parent who doesn't have these is likely to have these reactions: too weak boundaries, or the opposite- too strong ones and the tendency is to sway between the two, which leaves the young person confused. A person with non-healthy boundaries is likely to be too reactive, or under-reactive to having their boundaries pushed and so can introduce drama. A parent also has to have very good self soothing abilities in place and be able to keep a cool when choosing what to do or say in response to the teen and not respond when in the heat of the moment ( unless an emergency).

Teens/young adults will likely hurt our feelings at times. In their efforts to separate, they will also swing between two extremes: want to be like the parent or anything but the parent, want freedom and the next moment want their mommy or daddy. They, themselves, don't know who they are or how to be an adult and this is part of the growing process. It probably looks like BPD in the moment.

If this process is interrupted or altered in any way, it can cause a failure to launch well, or the opposite, the child wanting nothing to do with their parents, or a bit of both. This can happen when there are issues like co-dependency in the parents, or a delay in the child being on their own. College is a sort of delay, as the kids want to be independent but they still need their parents' support. Parents who pull too hard on the parental strings, or who have little expectations of their kids ( like attending and passing classes) risk the adult child having difficulty separating. Living at home is another delay, which can be necessary to finish education.

So, while you have issues in your relationship with your H, your adult daughter is in the mix, and she seems to be participating in family drama ( 3 is a triangle).  IMHO, this everyone seeing movie together thing is a bit odd- it is nice to go together, but you are all adults. There could have been other options besides what happened. She could have seen her movie by herself, called a friend or a cab to get home. Since you don't want to see her movie with her, she can go on her own or with a friends. If there is enmeshment in a family, there are less choices and everyone feels restrained by rules and obligations that may not be necessary- and these can lead to people feeling stiffled and angry.

She may have issues and you don't have to justify her behavior, but, with her living at home, being part of the drama, what choice does she have to separate from you but to push as hard as she can against you? Look at this scenario- you refused to see a movie with her that she wanted, as a way of showing your disapproval of her behavior. Now, you are asking her to go to the therapist with you. If she were a child, she would have to obey. The only way she can assert herself as an adult, to not be a child, is to oppose you and refuse to go.

Your therapist knows that your D has to separate from you, developmentally, and she will do it in the only way she feels she can. Your task as a parent is to give her room to do this in healthy ways. At 20, many kids are living away from home, and at least responsible for their day to day lives. The challenge with an adult child living at home is to create similar opportunities. I think your T can help you with this if you are open to her ideas.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I do try to always take the advice of my therapist, but I feel that the example she gave me with her kid, just isn't at all the same as is happening with mine. For one, her son was 15 and feeling badly about going to spend time with his Dad, and there was a correlation between his behaviors, but with MY daughter, she's 20 and I just don't see how it's the same at all.

I even ran the advice past BPDh, and he agreed with me that heaping kindness and "understanding" on my daughter, when she'd angry, is likely to earn me more of it. He's witnessed it all first hand, and my therapist has not. I've also, tried that tactic in the past, ignoring her angry, abusive behaviors, trying to be helpful, and letting it burn itself out. The trouble with that, and BPDh agreed, is that it doesn't seem to work. If something doesn't work after multiple tries, I try something else! My daughter does not seem satisfied until she's got me crying, or clearly a nervous wreck.

I guess bottom line is that I feel I've already tried what the therapist has suggested, and in fact I feel it's almost that exact tactic that's gotten me/us HERE. I think boundaries, and the other parts of my therapists advice, are likely to be more effective. Heck, I'm choosing the harder option, because just being "nice" is the natural thing for me, and boundaries, and BPDh and I having a unified plan with my daughter is actually going to be harder for me.

This mostly has to be employed before any more outings together as a family, or me going with just my daughter. At home, I can walk away, or clam up and just wait for her anger to pass. Away from home, that all becomes much, much harder... .

Even my Mom doesn't think just being "nicer"(and trust me, my daughter has called me a doormat recently), is going to work. My Mom, and all who know my daugher best think she's under a lot of stress, and really could use therapy to help her work through some of this.

[Notwendy]

I agree with your boundary on outings. But having healthy boundaries isn't about not being nice. This is a start, but boundaries are something that takes practice and learning. I found this to be a challenging concept that took work. It isn't about being nice or not, but about acting from a centered place regardless of the reactions to it from people around you. It could even involve being very nice at times, but doing so in a different way from co-dependency. It isn't an easy process- for me it took the idea that what I was doing- did not lead to the results I wanted. I wanted an inner sense of calm- no matter what other around me thought of me- if they were angry or not. But to get there, I had to be open to trying new ideas- even if they didn't feel comfortable to me, or even felt "mean" at the time- and I had to do it with support and guidance- like your T is giving you.

So, I don't know about her advice that she gave you about understanding. Yes you think it is wrong and everyone around you thinks it is wrong. One option is to go back to your T and let her know " this feels wrong to me so please explain this or coach me through it". Let her coach you through new behaviors.

You can always go back to doing what you are doing, what feels right to you, and the results that you are getting now. In some ways, they are working for you, and in others- they are not- the ones you describe here. But to get any change, one has to try new things- and not know exactly how the results will be.

As to outings as a family, I wouldn't bring a 20 year old who didn't behave out either. However, if a 20 year old wants to see a movie, she can just go see it. You've described her interactions with your H before and some triangulations, and I agree- if you have a movie date with your H, then it can be just the two of you. The issue is between the two of you- if you are out with your D, and she is rude to you, then you can turn around and go home. But by doing this as the three of you, it becomes, a three way thing. You gave up your movie date because of her bad behavior, but there were other options- one was to just have her walk down the hall to the movie she wanted to see and give her cab money or wait for her movie to finish. Then, you would have seen the movie with your H. You wanted to see the movie and you gave this up because of her bad behavior, but then, you didn't get what you wanted.

Boundaries also mean honoring your wishes, your wishes to see the movie. By reacting to your D's behavior, it looks as if she made you miss your movie. But you chose to miss it, and are blaming her. That gives her the power over your choices. Honoring your boundary could have been to honor your wish to see the movie and think of ways to do so without reinforcing her behavior. " I am going to see this movie, and you can decide to stay, see this movie, see your movie, or call a cab home".

In he moment of upset, we can't see all our options. You did the best you could do. Your T may be able to teach you new behaviors so you would be able to see more choices.

[TheRealJongoBong]

I've also, tried that tactic in the past, ignoring her angry, abusive behaviors, trying to be helpful, and letting it burn itself out. The trouble with that, and BPDh agreed, is that it doesn't seem to work. If something doesn't work after multiple tries, I try something else! My daughter does not seem satisfied until she's got me crying, or clearly a nervous wreck.

Isn't this the essence of an extinction burst? She tries and tries and tries until she finally gets your goat? She just KNOWS that if she keeps at it long enough you're going to break, and she gets positive feedback every time you do. You're the only one who can break this cycle by putting up with it until she's too tired to go on.

[Grey Kitty]

I agree with notwendy--healthy boundaries and boundary enforcement isn't the same as not being nice.

I will say that I've never found a way to enforce a boundary and be "nice" "kind" "friendly" or anything of the sort at the time. The point of enforcing a boundary is to remove yourself from a behavior WHICH IS AIMED TO HURT YOU. If you stop yourself from being exposed to this, you are thwarting your daughter's goal (which is to sooth her own inner pain by taking crap out on you). I guarantee she isn't going to like this and isn't going to think you are being nice.

To make things worse, she is likely to try escalating things to the next level, being more cruel/hurtful to achieve the self-soothing I mentioned above.

*NOTE* she can do all this with zero self-awareness. It may not be consciously premeditated if that makes sense. But even so, it is *NOT* an accident or a coincidence. She is getting some kind of payoff by getting you in tears or as a nervous wreck.

The key here is not to make it about being "nice" to her or being "mean" to her. It really isn't either, and if she claims it is, that is just part of the game. The key is to make sure it truly is about protecting yourself.

CB, be gentle with yourself over this; it is a really hard shift to make. But very very worth it. Keep at it.

[MaybeSo]

Having boundaries is like a limb slowly coming back to life that hasn't been used in years if ever.  It's a slow process and it can be painful.

A boundary is about taking care of yourself, emotionally and physically. When we are unskilled at this we tend to over do it either by being way too reactionary when we do exert a boundary, or we go back to our usual place of being way to nice and placating or avoidant... .the basic codependent stance.   As if it's all or nothing.

The sweet spot is in the middle. 

People don't like it (usually) when you have boundaries, and the more immature the person the more they don't like it ... .at least in the moment. 

All kids test and respond with protest behavior to a firm boundary, such as  "NO". 

Parents who can't stand to see or hear their kids protestations cave-in, over and over again. Parents who need to be liked all the time or be popular or can't manage the anxiety of seeing their kid show anger at them, cave-in.   

Parents who are skilled with boundaries do not personalize an initial protest behavior to a boundary.  They stay calm and if needed do the broken record thing... .and they can at times have an even tone or kindly validate a feeling  " I understand you want XZY, I can appreciate you don't like my answer, but it's still NO, it's still NO, it's still NO.   

Parents who need to be liked, who get too anxious with a kids angry response or who can't stop personalizing a person's protest behavior... .again, usually cave-in, over and over again. 

Funny thing is... .even though there's almost always at least temporary protest behavior to a boundary... .all the research shows that people have better relationships and feel more secure with a person who is skilled at good boundaries. 

Now, take a family where a parent has caved in over and over to protest behavior, and you will not have an easy time at all with becoming a boundried person.  YOu have a house full of folks who have been weaned on intermittent reinforcement, crazy making codependent mixed messages (I will give you what you want but only because I need you to like me,  or I will give in only because you are making me do it... .and I'm going to resent you for it, or I'll cave in because I need to be needed, or need to rescue you... .and on and on... .) so you can bet there's going to be extinction bursts in that home when someone starts to have boundaries. The whole family unit is fused and merged and confused about what belongs to whom, there ARE no clear boundaries, and all are operating from drama triangle positions.

And, someone new at boundaries likely still over-personalizes and over-does the boundary because they are new to it and aren't used to doing it in a skillful way. It's just part of the learning curve.

Your therapist may have been suggesting or modeling that you can have a boundary and still hold onto yourself and be kind. Or, she may see you get so triggered by your daughter that you move to the persecutor role, and she's suggesting you sooth yourself so that you can stay more calm.   I don't believe you can have a boundary and worry about being thought of as nice at the same time, but some folks who are VERY skilled with boundaries DO weave in kindness with their good boundaries in some instances.  I think maybe the T is jumping ahead of you a bit, but there are a lot of people who can very calmly and kindly say NO, they do not panic or get angry when they get a protest response, even if it's rude.  They don't personalize.  They stay non reactionary and someone really skilled can even still weave in validating statements and recognize how the person feels AND still politely keep their boundary.

I see a lot of people experiment with boundaries then announce they don't work as soon as the other person protests.  NO ONE LIKES your BOUNDARIES.  Just assume that.  Being liked or popular is not your goal when you have good boundaries.

Don't ever expect a person to like it when you say no or have a boundary.  You cannot be a healthy person and be everyone's favorite person all the time 24/7... .it is not possible.  It's not even healthy to try.  But if you show good boundaries, those that protest the most will actually RESPECT you and FEEL more secure around you b/c you are showing you can stand on your own two feet, that you can be trusted to keep your word, and they know they aren't going to get lectured about how they MAKE you feel bad or make you do things you don't want to do. 

Let people have their protest behaviors... .there is no person who is so perfect that they wont' sometimes act rude or disrespectful when you are saying NO to them, stay calm and be a broken record or just leave or take a break.   Don't over react to their over-reactions. Don't get into tit for tat stuff, it just keeps the drama going.   

Keep learning self soothing skills.  Take care of yourself if a protest rises to the level of actual abuse of course... .but remember, someone being angry or snotty about a boundary is not necessarily abuse.  Let them have their anger, let it just hit a clear bubble shield you imagine surrounding you and see it drip down to the ground.   Go about your business while maintaining the boundary.

Be creative and flexible but don't try to fix things for other adults. 

Fix things for you. Co-create with others.

Your daughter should be getting the message that you trust her to take care of herself and come up with her own creative solutions to problems and  to manage her own disapointment over a change in movies and other basic life issues such as you describe here.   

You can model that by calmly taking care of YOURSELF and keeping focused on your needs.  When you take the position that she is MAKING you upset or MAKING you a nervous wreck or MAKING you cry... .you are on the drama triangle and handing ALL power over to someone else while staying completely disconnected from yourself and your power as an adult.  You are making your internal wellbeing DEPENDENT upon another... .even upon your 20 year old daughter.   DEPENDENT,  as in Co-dependent.   

You can do this.  You can break this cycle.   It just takes time and practice.   

[Ceruleanblue]

I think I do okay with her initial anger, but it absolutely does end up upsetting me when she just won't stop. I think I really just need to walk away, or get away from her somehow when she does this. I can't see how it wouldn't be upsetting when she'd projecting her crap onto me, and I attempt to de escalate things, but she just wants then to escalate.

I don't think I take the position that she is MAKING me nervous or cry, but it IS in direct response to her anger and relentlessness. I think I'd have to be superhuman to never let it bother me. I can try to take it less personally, but I think on some level, of course it will always hurt when she treats me like that?

I'm really not super reactionary to her I don't think. Usually I hide my nervousness, and when I cry, it's usually when I've gone off. The theater incident, I walked off, because I sort of get the feeling that she enjoys getting me to that point. I walked off to escape her anger. Looking back, I wish I'd just moved to sit elsewhere, but at that point, I was pretty upset, and likely would not have enjoyed the movie anyway. And, I couldn't count on her not following me. When she gets like that, she's pretty intense.

I actually had an easier time setting boundaries with her before she became an "adult", and before her life got so stressful. She's always had a slight anger issue, since puberty, but it's gotten worse since she feels she's grown now. I'm not even imposing any rules on her, or asking her to do anything.

I really do feel that boundaries are to protect ME, and I deserve to be treated well, and if someone can't, I'll remove myself from their presence. I also don't think all her snottiness is abuse, or all her anger, but some of it is. I think it's more the blame she throws onto me that I have issue with. Like when she blamed me for being "selfish" because BPDh wanted to take me to see the movie I'd been wanting to see. I don't like, nor appreciate blame, especially as I get enough of that from BPDh. I almost feel like she's picked up the "blame game" from him?

I actually have a LOT easier time having boundaries with my kids than I do with BPDh. I'm not scared to stand up to them, and it's much easier to be matter of fact with them.

I do not feel I'm letting my well being dependent on anyone but ME. I am just tired of walking a mine field of BPDh's anger and my daughter's anger. I don't think my well being is just about them. I have so much life outside my life with them, but I'd like my life around them to be so much more pleasant than it is.

It has been so bad at times, that I've felt the only way to have peace, was to not be around them. I'm hoping boundaries can help with that, but I sure am dreading the reactions to my upped boundaries. BPDh mostly goes either blaming or silent, but my daughter is WAY more vocal about her displeasure.

This would even be easier if I was just facing this issue with ONE person, but it's a few people, my two kids, and BPDh. It just feels like there is always someone mad at me, and that is hard. I DO NOT feel it's my fault, but I know JADE is bad, so I try not to do that, but in a way, that seems to send them a message that I agree with the blame? I've always sort of felt that way... .

[MaybeSo]

I think I do okay with her initial anger, but it absolutely does end up upsetting me when she just won't stop. I think I really just need to walk away, or get away from her somehow when she does this. I can't see how it wouldn't be upsetting when she'd projecting her crap onto me, and I attempt to de escalate things, but she just wants then to escalate.

Adults get upset, they just learn to take care of their own upset.  And they don't personalize or have shame based beliefs that spiral them into super strong reactions.  This is stuff you can work on with your therapist.  Everyone gets upset.  That's not the problem.  

I don't think I take the position that she is MAKING me nervous or cry, but it IS in direct response to her anger and relentlessness. I think I'd have to be superhuman to never let it bother me. I can try to take it less personally, but I think on some level, of course it will always hurt when she treats me like that?

This is what I read:  I try something else! My daughter does not seem satisfied until she's got me crying, or clearly a nervous wreck.

Our environments pull for and support certain feelings... .happiness, sadness, anger (growing anger is a sign a boundary is being crossed, that's one of the main reasons we have the emotion of anger to signal our need for boundary protection).  While our environments pull for or call-up certain emotions and feelings, OUR feelings and reactions belong to us and are 100% US.  Emotions reside in our body.  Our body belongs to us. The feelings inside our body belong to us. That's a boundary, too.  If you get to a point where you feel overwhelmed, it's a signal that you need to protect your boundary WAY sooner.

I'm really not super reactionary to her I don't think. Usually I hide my nervousness, and when I cry, it's usually when I've gone off. The theater incident, I walked off, because I sort of get the feeling that she enjoys getting me to that point. I walked off to escape her anger. Looking back, I wish I'd just moved to sit elsewhere, but at that point, I was pretty upset, and likely would not have enjoyed the movie anyway. And, I couldn't count on her not following me. When she gets like that, she's pretty intense.

Again, these are all signs that your work is to support your boundaries WAY sooner. When you are knee deep in it, then it's usually too late b/c everyone is dyregulated by then.

I actually had an easier time setting boundaries with her before she became an "adult", and before her life got so stressful. She's always had a slight anger issue, since puberty, but it's gotten worse since she feels she's grown now. I'm not even imposing any rules on her, or asking her to do anything.

As Notwendy mentioned, your daughter is in a normal developmental phase where she should be pushing away and launching from you and into her own life.  This can get ugly and get mired down into drama if her family engages in codependent behaviors, models enabeling behavior or codependent coping skills, has not set or exhibited good boundaries in the home. And of course other factors can play into it too.  Extinction bursts are ugly.

I really do feel that boundaries are to protect ME, and I deserve to be treated well, and if someone can't, I'll remove myself from their presence. I also don't think all her snottiness is abuse, or all her anger, but some of it is. I think it's more the blame she throws onto me that I have issue with. Like when she blamed me for being "selfish" because BPDh wanted to take me to see the movie I'd been wanting to see. I don't like, nor appreciate blame, especially as I get enough of that from BPDh. I almost feel like she's picked up the "blame game" from him?

Try leaning into blame and seeing this stuff from a completely different perspective.   "Yes, I am being selfish, I deserve to have an event with my husband alone and that's what I'm going to do. "  This would be good for her to see an adult show some comfort with the boundary of self care. It's called being "effectively selfish".  There is such a thing as healthy selfish actions, and your daughter needs to SEE that a person can be effectively selfish.  You have to start thinking about these things differently.  I've read a lot of your posts.  There is strong blame/shame feel to your family dynamics. Blame is a dynamic underlying interactions between two or more people.   You sometimes participate in it, too.  That's how this kind of thing works in families.   When we heal from codependence we are healing a shame-based, fear-based approach to life. Keep your boundaries while having compassion for how both you and your daughter are slowly learning to have better skills.  YOu can have compassion for yourself (important!) AND her to have good boundaries.

I actually have a LOT easier time having boundaries with my kids than I do with BPDh. I'm not scared to stand up to them, and it's much easier to be matter of fact with them.

Good!

I do not feel I'm letting my well being dependent on anyone but ME. I am just tired of walking a mine field of BPDh's anger and my daughter's anger. I don't think my well being is just about them. I have so much life outside my life with them, but I'd like my life around them to be so much more pleasant than it is.

If someone's anger (not abuse) is too much for you too handle or sends you into a trauma or fear response and you can't manage it, and are looking to the other person to stop it to make it better... .then in a sense, you have not learned to depend on yourself at an emotional level yet.  This is the kind of dependency I am referring to; codependents keep complaining about what other peoples behavior does to them emotionally. Repeatedly. For years and years.  But nothing changes.  They depend on someone else changing so that they can feel better.   That speaks to a dependency on an expectation of external regulation from others, I will feel better when you stop doing something bad that makes me feel bad.  That's a dependency.  The trick is to learn to do it for yourself, I will have a boundary and take care of myself NOW, I do not depend on you to change YOUR behavior.  When we heal from co-dpendency we grow strong in self-regulation, we stop living with shame/blame beliefs, we do not depend on others to regulate our states. We OWN our lives, 100 %, all of it.WE make very hard decisions and are willing to sooth ourselves through the discomfort that comes with making hard decisions. We accepts and manage difficult feelings and experiences.  We read our states and we take quick action to regulate ourselves through good boundaries and coping skills for US.  I do understand that you have a life outside of this and you are able to enjoy other things, which is a skill too.  Some folks can't even do that, so that is huge, I don't mean to take away from that.  It's at the internal, emotional level where the rubber hits the road with boundaries.

It has been so bad at times, that I've felt the only way to have peace, was to not be around them. I'm hoping boundaries can help with that, but I sure am dreading the reactions to my upped boundaries. BPDh mostly goes either blaming or silent, but my daughter is WAY more vocal about her displeasure.

See above.

This would even be easier if I was just facing this issue with ONE person, but it's a few people, my two kids, and BPDh. It just feels like there is always someone mad at me, and that is hard. I DO NOT feel it's my fault, but I know JADE is bad, so I try not to do that, but in a way, that seems to send them a message that I agree with the blame? I've always sort of felt that way... .

Yes it would be easier but his is the family you have right now!  We choose our experience every day.  We choose.  Life is not happening TO US.  We choose.  That's a boundary, too.  You can see why boundaries are so hard.  They require we OWN our life and our choices and our feelings and our reactions.    YOu can see or imagine what the payoff is of NOT having good boundaries might be. If I have poor boundaries, I really don't have to take responsibility for ME in some very important ways, and I avoid a lot of anxiety that comes with full ownership.

We also have to have good boundaries EVERYWHERE anyway.  It is a requirement to be on the earth in a healthy way.  

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm just in a phase where I don't know if I'm every going to be strong enough to have the sort of boundaries I truly need. I'm way better at it than I was a couple years ago, even a year ago, but it feels like one step forward, two steps back.

I just want to be kind, and be a good person. Period. When I live by that code though, I end up being a doormat, or mistreated. Anger is projected at me, and blame. I don't feel like a victim, but I am the common target, for three different people, at different times. I can honestly say that I don't treat anyone else they way they treat me. I was raised to treat others well, and not use anger as a means to manipulate.

I actually do feel I've been selectively selfish, but I guess I just don't think of it as being selfish? Everyone deserves to have "me time" or couples time, and I don't find that to BE selfish.

I still don't see how I'm a huge part of the triangle, especially as I've been trying so hard to stop off the triangle by displaying healthier behaviors and higher boundaries.

How do I fix what I can't even SEE? I fail to see my part in this, other than trying to be healthy amidst a storm of anger and blame... .and if I can't see it, I can't fix my part.

[Cat Familiar]

I just want to be kind, and be a good person. Period. When I live by that code though, I end up being a doormat, or mistreated.

I still don't see how I'm a huge part of the triangle... .How do I fix what I can't even SEE? I fail to see my part in this, other than trying to be healthy amidst a storm of anger and blame... .and if I can't see it, I can't fix my part.

The way I see it, CB, your first sentence is the problem. It's like wearing a "Kick Me" sign on your back.

Can you trust that you're a good person and not have to "just be kind?" Even Jesus got angry in appropriate circumstances.

When you try to show kindness in the face of disrespect, your husband and kids think of you as weak.

You know you're a good person. Why not experiment with allowing your real reactions to surface. Like when you are mistreated, get angry? Because you are. You know it. They know it. If you're not real, they lose even more respect for you.

[daughterandmom]

Hi CB

I am going to come at this from a different direction- I have no advice for you at all with dealing with the BPDh, as I have zero experience with that. But I have raised four kids through the teenage years, and we had many challenges with that. My kids are very close in age, now 22, 23, 26 and 28 so for a period of time we had nonstop teenagers, which was not fun. I was raised by a disordered parent to be her caretaker, so my personality is shaped by that. I am also Christian, and that greatly shapes my approach in life so I feel like I can see where you are coming from.

My advice would be to try to seperate your issues with your husband and with your kids. It's easy to fall into a feeling that you are alone in trying to be the kind one, and feel backed into a corner trying to uphold your boundaries, feeling ganged up on. I think there's a lot of great advice on here for learning to deal with your husband, I will leave that to other posters who have experience with that.

But with your daughter- I agree with NotWendy. Trust your therapist. The hard thing with teenagers and young adults is that you always have to be the grownup. My advice is I would continue to uphold boundaries with her bad behavior. But if that's all you are doing it's can get us into an unwinnable cycle. I would try to be kind without any strings. Find moments where you can do nice things, suprise her with presents and outings and special time with you with no strings attached. Not as a reward for good behavior. Not something you tell her about and then take away when she misbehaves. Doing this is not being a doormat. It's giving her unconditional love. Leave something on her pillow. Try to not take her rants personally. Try not to defend or engage. Just try to support.

When my daughters were 17-20 that was some of the hardest times. They were trying so hard to be grownups, but they were still kids in so many ways and the emotions were just all over the place. When they tried to release some of that built up frusration on me I usually countered with what's wrong sweetie? You seem to be having a hard time today- let's talk about this in a minute. Why don't you sit down and find something on tv for us to watch together and I will go get us a snack. This worked wonders. Sometimes they would get themselves under controll while I got the snack and would thank me for helping them calm down. Other times they would still insist it was all my fault. But overall it worked for me. And now they are both out of the house and have their own lives, but come to me frequently to talk issues through that are going on in their lives, so I feel like it was a good investment. They are now both well balanced, empathetic people with good boundaries.

But- it was HARD! So many times I said to myself why do I always have to be the grownup. But anytime I slipped and made it about me, defended myself against what was just frustration from their still developing brains it just made it worse. I think that's what your therapist means about sounding defensive.

And once again, I would lay the groundwork by just being kind (not a doormat) as much as possible, without any strings or expectations.

I hope some of this turns out to be valuable to you. I am happy to talk more if I can be of any help. Hang in there- I know it's hard  

[MaybeSo]

I just want to be kind, and be a good person. Period.

Deep breaths. Use your skills to self-sooth. You won't figure this out all at once.  This takes time.  Let it take time.  Take deep breaths and just know that all of this takes time, and that is perfectly fine and as it should be.

I still don't see how I'm a huge part of the triangle, especially as I've been trying so hard to stop off the triangle by displaying healthier behaviors and higher boundaries.

Notice where you went with this.   How are you a HUGE part of the triangle ... .?

I understand you are used to feeling blamed, but the intent here is just to educate and support, not blame. No one wrote here that you are a huge part of the problem.    Just that you play your role.   Of course you play a role.  See the difference?  One is a measured, non-dramatic perspective and acceptance that we of course play a role in family dysfunction... .the other is exaggerated and jumps to conclusions.

You are making progress, you are moving in the right direction.  It takes time.

If we are in a family and something is going wrong, we are part of it. We play a role.  This isn't personal or even specific to you.  It's not dramatic.  It doesn't say anything about you other than you are a normal human doing your best in a challenging situation and that over time you can build skills to do even better.  A dynamic is about how a system is interacting as a whole based on each part that makes a contribution... .the sum is greater than the parts. You are a part of this family system.  We are all part of families and we all contribute to the system in both productive and not so productive ways. You do, too.  So do I. So do we all.

Keep breathing.

I think the feedback you have gotten regarding your daughter's development and how it is different than the r/s with your partner/spouse is wise.  You need boundaries with both, but your daughter is different than your husband.  One is a child, the other a partner.  Very different.

In general, nothing about life is easy or all black/all white, all good/all bad. We would all just love to just be kind/good people and have things work well based on that alone.  But that's not very realistic. Life demands more of us.

So, when you say I just want to be a kind, good person... .while that is a worthwhile goal and intention in spirit... .My push back is that you still have to have boundaries and sometimes that will piss people off, or it will make you feel uncomfortable or unpopular for a bit, and you might even lose someone over a boundary at certain times in your life.  That does happen. At the time it may not feel kind to anyone.  You still need boundaries, they keep us safe, and in turn they keep home life more safe, too.  You can be a good, kind person (as a whole) and still have boundaries.   The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Ceruleanblue]

That is what I'm trying to do, and have been trying for the last year. It was so much simpler with my son, because I'm not currently living with him. When he'd be disrespectful, I'd leave, and try again another day. It's harder with my daughter because we live together, and I think because she is feeling "grown", and she has a lot of stress.

I appreciate everyone's advice. Truly.

DaughterandMom: I actually do a lot of things for my daughter with no strings attached. I even do her laundry, which I'd like her to do, but gave up on. I do it without complaints. At this time, it wasn't worth setting a boundary around, because I feel I have bigger fish to fry. We often do a mall outing, and do lunch. I'll try your approach next time she's is angry at me, but I'm pretty sure I've done exactly that in the past, and have just gotten more blame, and anger. The "snack" approach may work, it's worth a try.

BPDh and my daughter are both "blamers" and I try not to pick up the blame, which I probably used to do. I don't think anger is bad, I just try not to go there. I think because then I'd feel I'm not behaving any better than them? I think justified anger, as long as it's not disprespectful, or abusive, can actually be a GOOD thing, I've just been afraid to do it. Mostly because there is so much anger and hostility here, that it just feels like I'm adding the the equation. I'd LOVE to be able to show my sense of indignation, or frustration through healthy anger, but I'm afraid they'll misinterpret it.

BPDh and I have been together five years, and I've probably showed him my version of anger a total of four or five times. I just don't like going there, because I couldn't trust him not to get physical, or for it to escalate things. He no longer gets physical, but I think my fear of that is still there.

Now, with my kids, I don't fear showing my anger, if truly warranted, but again, I just think it sometimes makes things worse, so I'm usually trying to diffuse the situation. Maybe I do need to show them all that anger can be healthy, and it doesn't have to be abusive, negative, or ugly. That's something for me to think on. This has all given me a direction to head, at least.

One plan with my daughter, another with BPDh... .boundaries with both though.

How do I stay out of the triangle? I need SPECIFICS, because I'm too close to it to see it. Mired down in doing what I've always done, perhaps. I do know I've tried new things this last year, but opposition has been strong, and it's hard to not fall back on trying to keep the peace.

[MaybeSo]

You may want to buy the small book called TED The Empowerment Dynamic.  It reviews the Drama Triangle positions and offers the anecdote to those stuck roles.

With TED, the role of victim shifts to "creator".  The role of persecutor shifts to "challenger".  The role of rescuer turns to "coach".

Instead of being in victim, we get reconnected to our goals and dreams and take ownership of creation in our life.

Instead of being in persecutor, we shift to the role of challenger when we challenge others to own their higher self, and we see those who would persecute us as challengers that are pushing us toward what we most need to learn to grown.

The role of rescuer turns into the role of "coach", we help support those in our lives to learn, grow and take care of themselves, but we do not enable or do things for others or try to fix others.

TED* (*The Empowerment Dynamic) is a positive alternative to the Drama Triangle, which was first described by Stephen Karpman, MD. The TED* Reconnecting to our dreams and desires, and taking action toward those outcomes requires a shift in mindset for most people. When “Shifts Happen” and you move into a Creator, Challenger or Coach role, greater awareness and options become available to you.

[MaybeSo]

Here is a great little video from Brene Brown about blaming. 

This is something you might even show sometimes to your daughter, you may both get a chuckle out of it.  I like how honest Brene Brown is about seeing her how tendancy to blame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZWf2_2L2v8

[Cat Familiar]

Great video, MaybeSo. Thank you. 

[Ceruleanblue]

The role of rescuer turns into the role of "coach", we help support those in our lives to learn, grow and take care of themselves, but we do not enable or do things for others or try to fix others.

Wow, I think I've actually been doing this since the "reconcile". I don't think I ever thought I could "fix" anyone, but I think I unwittingly got cast in that "rescuer" role. I've been the one trying to help everyone take a more active role in their own issues. I often tell them that only they can change themselves, as only I can change or work on MY issues. I think BPDh is getting the concept, but I'm pretty sure my daughter is not.

I don't see myself as a "coach" though, because that would make me feel like I'm still care taking them on some level. I think we all have to do our own work. I just am honest with them, and kindly tell them if they hurt me, or if they are stuck in a pattern that has never worked for them. I also do not see them as "challenging" me to "grow". I feel these lessons in life, and dealing with a PD is something I could have gone through life not knowing, and been quite joyful in my "ignorance is bliss". I've learned lessons I wish I hadn't had to know.

I like the change of names, but on some level they bother me too. If I had to choose, I've felt like more of a "coach"(don't love that label either), than a "rescuer". What I'd love to be is just a positive influence, and that others can see that I'm working hard on ME, and that everyone can only work on their own issues.

I watched that video a year or so again, and I LOVED it. I like how she owned up to her blame issue. It makes me wonder why some people blame, and others don't. My Mom and Dad have a great marriage, 60 plus years, but Dad was sometimes a blamer, but my Mom is not at all. Just funny.

[formflier]

  I've been the one trying to help everyone take a more active role in their own issues. I often tell them that only they can change themselves, as only I can change or work on MY issues.

Hmm, why are you the one in charge of this?  Might be to strong of a question to say in charge.

How often do you do/say this? 

Personally I like the term "trainer" rather than coach.  Coach (to me) seems a little more directive. 

This is a place where wife and I differ on child rearing.  I think you need to train kids how to do chores and other things vice "telling" them.  If you tell them to do something and they do it differently they routinely get in trouble.  If you are training them to clean the kitchen, and they do it very differently from how you would do it, but the kitchen is reasonably clean, they are learning, figuring out on their own how to accomplish a goal.  Vice waiting to be told.

I had same "mindset" in the military.  There were some very successful officers that "directed" their people in what to do.  I like to train the Sailors in my command, educate them about my broad goals, and sit back and watch in amazement as they owned and solved issues. 

Another nuance for CB to consider is that she and hubby (and now daughters) are equals.  Trying to get people to learn, change do things that they don't want to do, when you are not in charge of them is tricky business.  People can get offended (rightly so) real quick.

Good thread, I'm enjoying it.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

Uhm, I did not in fact say I was or am in charge of this? I said I try to "help everyone take a more active role in THEIR OWN issues". Even that is not something I directly say to them, but I try to lead by example. I am actively always working on me, and BPDh has known this. He sees me reading books, or researching, and I'll send him an occasional link or article if he asks me to.

I'm confused as to how you read what I wrote and came off with the impression that I feel I'm in charge? I clearly only feel I'm in charge, and responsible for ME.

I also do not want to feel like a "trainer" either. I think no matter what label you put on it: "coach", "trainer", "mentor", it sort of implies that I'm above them, and I don't feel that way. I DO feel we are all equals, and I deserve the respect I afford them, and that we each all have to own our own actions, and we each need to work our own issues. If someone brings an issue to me that they feel I have, I'll examine that, and I'll work on it if I feel they have a valid complaint(or maybe it's not so "valid", but it's something that bothers them, and I can easily work on).

I have decided though to no longer work on things that change who I am, and that are just things that make THEIR life more fun/comfortable, because I found out BPDh would do that to get his way. It was a form of manipulation. Like saying his life would be so much better if I learned to ride a motorcycle. Clear manipulation, and I'm not risking my life for that.

[MaybeSo]

I like the change of names, but on some level they bother me too. If I had to choose, I've felt like more of a "coach"(don't love that label either), than a "rescuer". What I'd love to be is just a positive influence, and that others can see that I'm working hard on ME, and that everyone can only work on their own issues.

Keep in mind that my post about TED (the empowerment dynamic) offered only a extremely brief overview of a very involved, deep way of shifting (slowly) from dysfunctional relationship patterns and struggles to healthier dynamics.  For a lot of people it ends up being path work or spiritual work.  It requires an examination of ones beliefs and assumptions.  It requires a lot of contemplation and self-examination and it takes thought.  I would strongly urge you to read about both the drama triangle and the anecdote to it... .the empowerment dynamic,  in-depth, and not get too hung-up on the words/labels here. There's a lot to this.

If it's not for you, that's fine, too.  

One way to know if you are using (consciously or not) drama triangle dynamics v. using empowerment dynamics, is to take inventory of your own state of being.  The drama triangle leads to a lot of frustration, spinning, anxiety, complaining, arguing, backbiting, defensiveness, confusion, fear, obligation, guilt, anger, resentment, blaming/shaming, etc.

TED shifts us away from the above and into healthier ways of relating with ourselves and others.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I am definitely trying to relate to others better, and take better care of myself too. I am however frustrated at times, confused, and anxious. I don't like to argue with BPDh or others because I've found it's useless. I do however try to explain(and trying not to JADE), how I feel, and leave it at that. Or I try to find a peaceful solution, or better way, when we keep bumping into the same roadblock. I'm seeing that that is likely useless too, as I'm the only one who wants to avoid the roadblock.

I don't use guilt, or blame, I rarely get angry(I'm more one to get hurt rather than angry), and BPDh pretty much sees everything I say as a "complaint", even a request for more communication, so I have to be careful there too.

I've been reading up yet again, on drama triangle, but I have read quite a bit about it in the past. I'm trying to empower myself, and live a healthier life, and I just don't know if that means I may have to leave BPDh to do that. I'm just so confused right now. I can see where BPDh plays both the victim role, but also persecutor too. I'm definitely cast in the "rescuer" role, but I'm trying hard not to BE that. I don't feel it's my place to "rescue" anyone.  I didn't choose to be in this role. I thought he was a healthy person when I married him, and I knew I was in a good place.

Also, from what I read, people choose to stay rescuers so they don't have to confront their own issues. I can't say that's the case with me. I'm in therapy, and I talk a lot about my OCD and my anxiety. I've actually come a long way over the years with both, but I have to say being with BPDh has made me struggle more with the anxiety. I actively work my issues, and I don't feel I use BPDh as an excuse not to. I guess it's just that MY issues are not making our marriage a hardship. My OCD is mostly mental, and my anxiety I've learned to keep from BPDh too.

The more I read, the more confused I am. I think I'm just going to have to really learn to stand up for myself, and stop taking as much as I do. Or wait, maybe then he'll see me as the Persecutor? All so confusing.

[formflier]

Does it matter how he "sees" you?

FF