Needs & Wants

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

We as human beings have three fundamental needs ... .food, water and shelter.  There are a also a subset of needs in order to get these fundamental needs met but they all relate directly to these three core needs. 

Everything else in life is a want.  I want an intimate relationship.  I want to be loved.  I want to be married.  I want a family.  Etc ... .  We don't need any of these things to exist or survive.  Notice how significantly the related thought processes change when you substitute need in place of want in the statements above.

This is something I noticed was quite prominent in my exes thinking.  She needed many things instead of wanting them.   This is something I have also noticed in my own thinking from time to time. 

I believe there is a fundamental difference in thinking when you feel you need something that is really a want.  It can lead to a lot of internal turmoil and disappointment when a need that should be a want is not realized.   The wants in life are what enrich our lives, give our lives purpose and meaning, but we don't need these things to exist or survive. 

Perhaps part of healing, and life in general, is to be more aware of when your internal voice is saying need when it should be saying want?

For example, I want closure ... .I want accountability ... .I want an apology.

I don't need these things to heal or to survive but if I felt I did that would leave me stuck in the mire of anger, despair and grief if I didn't get them.

How do people here identify with this needs vs wants in terms of your different stages of healing?

[C.Stein]

We as human beings have three fundamental needs ... .food, water and shelter.  There are a also a subset of needs in order to get these fundamental needs met but they all relate directly to these three core needs. 

Everything else in life is a want.  I want an intimate relationship.  I want to be loved.  I want to be married.  I want a family.  Etc ... .  We don't need any of these things to exist or survive.  Notice how significantly the related thought processes change when you substitute need in place of want in the statements above.

This is something I noticed was quite prominent in my exes thinking.  She needed many things instead of wanting them.   This is something I have also noticed in my own thinking from time to time. 

I believe there is a fundamental difference in thinking when you feel you need something that is really a want.  It can lead to a lot of internal turmoil and disappointment when a need that should be a want is not realized.   The wants in life are what enrich our lives, give our lives purpose and meaning, but we don't need these things to exist or survive. 

Perhaps part of healing, and life in general, is to be more aware of when your internal voice is saying need when it should be saying want?

For example, I want closure ... .I want accountability ... .I want an apology.

I don't need these things to heal or to survive but if I felt I did that would leave me stuck in the mire of anger, despair and grief if I didn't get them.

How do people here identify with this needs vs wants in terms of your different stages of healing?

[GoingBack2OC]

Interesting topic. However what about needs within wants.

I want to be loved. I want to be married. But I would need that person to be an honest, genuine, loving person.

Just a thought. But yes, people need only the basics to survive.

A great book I read on an international flight years ago - the title and author escape me, was written by a man who survived auschwitz during the holocaust. It's written from the viewpoint of just this, that how one can in fact survive under the most horrific set of circumstances. It involves living inside yourself, and forgetting what is outside.

Needs and want's are two very different things. But people are different too.

[blackbirdsong]

I see your point.

Not just from healing part of my journey , but also from the perspective when I was in r/s.

Considering that (r/s point of view, you also mentioned what your ex wanted/needed) I found a pattern in my behavior that I need to change.

There is something called "idiot compassion"



Another way to see idiot compassion is when we give for our own benefit, not for the recipient's, because we can't bear to see them suffering. Our giving has less to do with what they need, but plenty to do with trying to escape our own feelings of inadequacy. This is a more subtle point, but sometimes we can get so impelled to give that we forget why we are giving or what is actually needed.

I did that in my r/s. I comforted her irrational requests trying to minimize the conflict.

For example... .If she didn't want me to hang out with my friend (not explicitly but with talking how she feels bad, needs talk to someone etc. - you know the pattern), I wouldn't go, just to avoid arguing.

She won't be better because I didn't do this, her BPD will remain intact.

So I think we did a lot of idiot compassion in our relationships. Providing what they want, not what they need.

You can find similar examples in our own behavior... .When we do something that we want, and not something we really need.  

[C.Stein]

Interesting topic. However what about needs within wants.

I want to be loved. I want to be married. But I would need that person to be an honest, genuine, loving person.

Personally speaking I don't see these as needs, however it is certainly debatable.  I most certainly want my partner to embody these characteristics but I don't necessarily need them to be in a relationship with someone.  My relationship with my ex being case in point.

[Conundrum]

A great book I read on an international flight years ago - the title and author escape me, was written by a man who survived auschwitz during the holocaust. It's written from the viewpoint of just this, that how one can in fact survive under the most horrific set of circumstances. It involves living inside yourself, and forgetting what is outside. .

I believe you're referencing Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning."   A very influential work.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Stein-

As a reframe, food, water and shelter are physical needs, and humans also have emotional needs, that when left unfulfilled can make us feel like we are unfulfilled and that life has no purpose.

The six emotional needs are certainty, variety, love & connection, significance, contribution and growth.  It's a big topic, but the highlights include:

-We will meet the first 4 needs automatically, one way or the other, in either empowering ways or disempowering ways.

-Certainty and variety are conflicting needs and finding a balance between them is the key: most folks here say a relationship with a borderline had plenty of variety, never boring, never a dull moment, but lacked certainty, which is where the feeling of walking on eggshells comes from.

-Love & connection, which is one need, conflicts with our need for significance: we all have a need to feel significant and unique in some way, but the more we do it the more distant we can get from folks, so love and connection suffers, and if we focus on love and connection we can lose our sense of uniqueness; again it's a matter of finding balance, and of course the right relationship can have us getting both needs met.

-And contribution and growth are two needs that we need to consciously pursue meeting, or not, but it's not likely we'll feel fulfilled if we're not contributing beyond ourselves and continuing to grow.

So with that in mind, it's interesting to look at what needs were met in our relationships and which ones weren't, and at what level.  If we're involved in something that is meeting all 6 emotional needs at a high level, we'll be fully committed to it and fulfilled, if not, not so much.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, how were my needs getting met in the relationship?

Certainty - varied from 2 to 0

Variety - varied from 8 to 10

Love and connection - thought it was a 10 during idealization, turned out it was some negative number.

Significance - 10 during idealization, 0 during devaluation

Contribution - 10 for trying, 0 for trying to fill a bottomless pit

Growth - 10!  Pain is a great motivator

So it's pretty clear why I felt unfulfilled and leaving was the best bet, yes?

And you?

[C.Stein]

As a reframe, food, water and shelter are physical needs, and humans also have emotional needs, that when left unfulfilled can make us feel like we are unfulfilled and that life has no purpose.

If I were to build a cabin in the middle of nowhere and did not interact with any humans can you still consider these needs?  I don't believe you can.  I don't need an emotionally fulfilling and purposeful life to exist.

I see these more as emotional constraints imposed upon ourselves by society and therefore in my mind fall under the want category.  We are taught we need these things, but do we really need them to exist?  Beyond that these emotional needs are very specific to the individual which brings it outside the scope of the discussion.  

So on a scale of 1 to 10, how were my needs getting met in the relationship?

Certainty - varied from 2 to 0

Variety - varied from 8 to 10

Love and connection - thought it was a 10 during idealization, turned out it was some negative number.

Significance - 10 during idealization, 0 during devaluation

Contribution - 10 for trying, 0 for trying to fill a bottomless pit

Growth - 10!  Pain is a great motivator

So it's pretty clear why I felt unfulfilled and leaving was the best bet, yes?

And you?

I view these as things I want from a relationship.  If I really needed these things from a relationship then I  probably would never have been, or ever will be in another relationship again.  I believe any one of these factors/needs can and will range from 0-10 even in a healthy relationship.  

If one of these emotional "needs" are not met in a relationship what happens to you as an individual?  :)o you cease to function as a human being or do you continue on the road of life?  I believe it is the latter therefore is it really a "need"?  There are likely millions of people who may never have all these "needs" fulfilled yet they still manage to carve out some purpose and meaning in their lives.  :)oes that make sense or is it just nonsensical drivel?  

[fromheeltoheal]

As a reframe, food, water and shelter are physical needs, and humans also have emotional needs, that when left unfulfilled can make us feel like we are unfulfilled and that life has no purpose.

If I were to build a cabin in the middle of nowhere and did not interact with any humans can you still consider these needs?  I don't believe you can.  I don't need an emotionally fulfilling and purposeful life to exist.

If you did build that cabin you could meet your need for certainty by knowing that day follows night, and you'd freak out if one day the sun didn't rise.  And you could meet your needs for variety by noticing the seasons changing.  And your need for significance could be met by realizing you were the king of your castle and all you can see is your kingdom.  And you could meet your needs for love and connection by connecting with yourself, and maybe random critters, or a volleyball like Tom Hanks in Castaway.

Point is you would meet those needs one way or the other, and the question is at how high a level?  You're right, you don't need an emotionally fulfilling and purposeful life to exist, and what is life?  Is it more than existing?  We must exist to call it life, since lack of existing is called death

I see these more as emotional constraints imposed upon ourselves by society and therefore in my mind fall under the want category.  We are taught we need these things, but do we really need them to exist?  Beyond that these emotional needs are very specific to the individual which brings it outside the scope of the discussion.  

No, they're innate needs of the human condition, the vehicles we use to meet those needs vary by culture, personality and social norms, but the needs don't change.

I view these as things I want from a relationship.  If I really needed these things from a relationship then I  probably would never have been, or ever will be in another relationship again.  I believe any one of these factors/needs can and will range from 0-10 even in a healthy relationship.  

If one of these emotional "needs" are not met in a relationship what happens to you as an individual?  :)o you cease to function as a human being or do you continue on the road of life?  I believe it is the latter therefore is it really a "need"?  There are likely millions of people who may never have all these "needs" fulfilled yet they still manage to carve out some purpose and meaning in their lives.  :)oes that make sense or is it just nonsensical drivel?  

I get where you're coming from Stein, and point is a relationship is a vehicle folks use to meet their needs.  There are people who live out in the woods by themselves and completely fulfilled, because they've chosen different vehicles to meet their needs and it's working.  Don't want to get too far from the point of your thread, but it can be helpful to look at how well your relationship met your needs, how good a vehicle it was, which can help make things clearer.  I thought my relationship was a Corvette, turns out it was a '63 Rambler with a flat tire; maybe that vehicle was a Transformer?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Anyone interested in this topic might wish to look up Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.  His theory includes the "line" between deficiency needs (things we can't survive and be fulfilled without) and things that are not necessary in life.

I agree, however, with C. Stein's idea that pwBPD see certain things as needs when they are really wants.  I had a relationship with a man (not my exBPD) who could not stand hurting other people at all, ever, even in situations where it was almost unavoidable.  For him, not hurting people registered as a need.  Later in life, he got therapy and reframed his thinking.  Now he understands that it's not completely necessary to never hurt (disappoint) others, and he is a much more balanced person.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, back to the needs of a borderline.  What a borderline needs is an attachment, a psychic fusing with someone to feel whole, and can literally feel like they don't exist without one, there's that existing thingy again.  And then, once an attachment is established, a borderline will constantly fear losing it and being abandoned, a reenactment of the abandonment depression they never weathered as tots, weathering that and coming out the other side being a necessary step in becoming an autonomous individual, most folks go through it as a normal part of development, borderlines don't.  And then, since a borderline does not have a fully formed 'self' of their own, they risk losing 'themselves' entirely in someone else, and fear that, fear engulfment.  All of the behaviors are responses to those two fears and the emotions that go with them, borderlines are doing the best they can with what they have, just like the rest of us, although their needs take on a different focus.

[thisworld]

Thank you C.Stein for another very interesting thread.

Distinction between needs and wants has a place in my life, but I don't think it occupies a big role in my healing as I understand it.

I think making this distinction helped me stay away from instant gratification and plan better for future satisfaction when I was in my most depressed state in my twenties. I think it was also a good lesson about capitalism that categorizes so many wants as needs. In healing, I think it may be helpful to practice more executive control if I had difficulty with NC.

When I look at needs and wants in terms of a relationship, I think values also play a role. Like everyone else, I have some independent values that won't change from relationship to relationship. I believe these are equally important for me as a human organism as my basic needs of food, shelter and safety. In this respect, I don't believe Maslow's hierarchy universally applies to everyone (I don't thing needs are hierarchical, either). Even in a matter of life and death, under extreme circumstances, I may choose to get rid of food and shelter and even choose to die for something I believe in. Is freedom a need or a want then? Does it matter, as the answer may be partly ideological (I find Maslow's hierarchy highly ideological, too). This capacity to decide makes hierarchies and certain distinctions a bit shaky for me - as soon as I exist beyond eating and going to the toilet.

As for the borderline, I don't think this distinction exists at a personal level until some awareness somehow sets in. We look at that from the outside and have an opinion but I believe borderline coping skills operate on a survival level anyway. From the perspective of the "felt" need of survival, these may even be "rational" actions, I don't know.   

[C.Stein]

If you did build that cabin you could meet your need for certainty by knowing that day follows night, and you'd freak out if one day the sun didn't rise.  And you could meet your needs for variety by noticing the seasons changing.  And your need for significance could be met by realizing you were the king of your castle and all you can see is your kingdom.  And you could meet your needs for love and connection by connecting with yourself, and maybe random critters, or a volleyball like Tom Hanks in Castaway.

I wasn't really looking for a philosophical discussion here, but I will entertain it for a moment.  The above examples do not follow the initial premise you presented, in that these emotional "needs" are met/fulfilled by another human being within the context of a relationship.  Further, to recognize the needs are variably met on a scale from 0-10 invalidates the notion that these are emotional "needs" at all.  If I were to have a "0" fulfilling requirement of an emotional need then for me it wouldn't be a need at all.   A "need", as presented in my first post, is something that is required for survival.

With respect to Tom Hanks I will point out that a "need for love and connection" is a uniquely human connection that cannot be fulfilled by an object (alive or not) that is incapable of "love or connection" on a human level.  Yes I could feel love and connection with a soccer ball but the emotional "need" to have that returned does not exist.   As much as I want to believe my cat "loves" me, he doesn't.  I want to believe my ex loves/loved me, she doesn't.  But here I still am ... .broken, destroyed, emotionally unfulfilled ... .yet still surviving.

Point is you would meet those needs one way or the other, and the question is at how high a level?  You're right, you don't need an emotionally fulfilling and purposeful life to exist, and what is life?  Is it more than existing?  We must exist to call it life, since lack of existing is called death

The question of existence is a uniquely human thought construct, not one of physical life and death.  It comes from self-awareness.  A rabbit is not self-aware, has no concept of existence, yet it is not dead.  Then there is the loaded issue of life after death ... .how does "existing" apply to that?

No, they're innate needs of the human condition, the vehicles we use to meet those needs vary by culture, personality and social norms, but the needs don't change.

Lets assume there are emotional "needs".  These emotional "needs" will vary with each individual and that alone means the needs will change.  Let's take the "love" need as example.  Now one person may have a "need" for love, the next person may have a "need" for companionship but not love, the next for friendship but not love, the next for nothing even resembling love, companionship or friendship.   How is love an innate "need" under these conditions?

Why do we "need" love ... .and is that a need to love or a need to be loved?  At the end of the day in my own mind and reality I don't "need" to love or be loved, but I do want to experience and have both in my life.

We need to be careful when attempting to define universally applicable "needs" within the context of our own individual reality.  The three needs I outlined in the initial post are universally applicable without contest.  My initial premise on "needs" are those which are required for survival and everything else is simply something you "want".  If any one of the "emotional needs" you have listed are not met I (and you) will continue to survive ... .exist ... .live.  

Perhaps I should drop the "exist" less the discussion degrade into an existential debate.  

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Stein-

6 human needs psychology is a very fruitful tool for identifying why we do what we do by looking at the vehicles we use to meet those needs, how high a level they're being met by a specific vehicle, and what vehicles we may want to use instead.  You are furthering your philosophy as a way to meet your need for significance, for example.

But sure, if you parse the terms used like 'need' and 'exist' the model may not hold up to scrutiny, matters of the mind aren't an exact science anyway, and it seems the point of your thread is to look at things we, or your ex, said were needs but were really wants, and to see where and how that carries over to detaching and moving on, yes?  Thinking about it, a borderline, someone who experiences strong emotions they can't soothe on their own, may come to an attachment and say they 'need' something, like someone with an intense toothache 'needs' to get to the dentist, but maybe that's just an extreme want, like the rest of borderline extreme.  Interesting viewpoint and I see value there as we make sense of the world again.  My ex was more forward than that, she wouldn't tell me she needed something, she'd just tell me what to do.  Good thing that didn't last long... .

Take care of you!

[GoingBack2OC]

A great book I read on an international flight years ago - the title and author escape me, was written by a man who survived auschwitz during the holocaust. It's written from the viewpoint of just this, that how one can in fact survive under the most horrific set of circumstances. It involves living inside yourself, and forgetting what is outside. .

I believe you're referencing Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning."   A very influential work.

Yes thank you! I went on Amazon and searched for "memoirs of holocaust, etc" and couldnt not find it.  I am an avid reader, and I scanned my book shelves, I couldnt find it.

Man's Search for Meaning. Was a very inspiring read.

Thank you!  Now if only I could find my copy .

[C.Stein]

it seems the point of your thread is to look at things we, or your ex, said were needs but were really wants, and to see where and how that carries over to detaching and moving on, yes?  

I was thinking to examine how "nons" and our exes view the needs vs wants question.  What did any of us really need from our relationships or did we think we needed something when it really should have been framed as a want.  The same question applies to our exes, however one can only assume what they are thinking and feeling.  

There is a significant shift in thinking between the two, particularly in the context of a relationship, and I wonder how this impacts the success or failure of any relationship.

6 human needs psychology is a very fruitful tool for identifying why we do what we do by looking at the vehicles we use to meet those needs, how high a level they're being met by a specific vehicle, and what vehicles we may want to use instead.

I don't know anything about this "6 human needs psychology" or the level of its acceptance in the scientific community, but I do know there are different thoughts/theories on this concept which almost brings it into the realm of philosophy.   To me, once you open the door to talk about emotions it all becomes very subjective.

[thisworld]

I personally think this issue has always been in the realm of philosophy, and psychology actually draws from it to a great degree. Hierarchy related approaches are quite similar to Aristotle's description of optimum life in method and approach. And I believe they have to be developed at a certain level beyond the three basic needs to contain all aspects of the human being. As for the three basic needs, I'd personally take food, water and clothing over shelter any day. Good protective clothing would be more functional than shelter for me and in some parts of the world none of these would realistically mean much without HIV medication. I don't think humanity is at a state where we can realistically and universally separate basic from not so basics. I don't think my private life is different from that; indeed things are so "unnatural" that I cannot even access my basic needs without education or money.

Still, I understand what you mean by needs and wants and I think this approach can work both ways in terms of healing. If I'm a complete codependent for instance, I may be ready to get rid of my needs thinking that they are wants and I can live without them. Likewise, as a codependent, in healing I may discover that certain elements of control that I think I'll die without are actually things I can do without and become happier (the 12 step approach and complete detachment). I reckon it depends on the mental state with which I'm interpreting what is a want and what is a need.

I personally think trying to apply basic needs for survival on relationship dynamics may be problematic (but I'm not very sure about why I'm thinking like this, I'm trying to discover this thinking through your posts). Yet, it seems to me that even though a relationship is not necessarily a need, there are things in it that I see as needs - which nevertheless remain outside my basic biological needs- because of the interpersonal aspect. Emotional satisfaction is the key for me here because without that, I feel really no need to be in a relationship. Single life is good enough. Things that keep my overall emotional satisfaction at a level which makes me want to stay in a relationship are my needs - no matter how obscure they are. Yes, I may survive biologically without them but I cannot survive as a healthy and satisfied emotional partner without them. Because we are talking within the framework of a relationship   , what is a want outside this (honesty from my partner) becomes a need in a relationship (if I'll survive emotionally and be happy as a partner).

For instance, my BPD ex is a heroin addict. I have never used heroin myself, I smoked pot in my student days etc but never bought it myself - except a holiday in Holland- and never sought it, either. I thought I couldn't live with an active addict. Then I discovered that actually I could but he would have to be honest about it. I used to get triggered badly when I saw him high on heroin. I considered my boundaries and decided that I needed some time to adjust myself when my partner used heroin. He did this outside the home, so I told him that a text message about come high and a clean room where I could just sit for a bit on my own and collect myself would help me approach him lovingly when he was high. This was a need because anything below this makes me angry in unpredictable ways and I don't like my behaviour when I'm like that.

My minimum in a relationship is not "Can I survive healthily without this", it is "Will I be emotionally satisfied/content/happy together with my partner" because that's the only reason why I (consciously) enter relationships. I've had to put those unfortunate brackets there because look at what I've done and where I'm writing this:)) So, for instance, giving 0 to one of the criteria in FHTH's list would not mean "not a need" for me, it would be an unmet need.  

Best,  

[fromheeltoheal]

My minimum in a relationship is not "Can I survive healthily without this", it is "Will I be emotionally satisfied/content/happy together with my partner" because that's the only reason why I (consciously) enter relationships. I've had to put those unfortunate brackets there because look at what I've done and where I'm writing this:)) So, for instance, giving 0 to one of the criteria in FHTH's list would not mean "not a need" for me, it would be an unmet need.  

Exactly.  If a given vehicle (a relationship for example) is meeting several of our emotional needs at a high level, we won't leave.  If we aren't getting any of our needs met at more than a low level, that isn't an effective vehicle for meeting our needs, and we will look for other ways to meet them and/or leave.

Now that model is applicable to borderlines too, when viewed through a borderline lens.  A borderline needs an attachment to feel whole, to survive even, and can report that they feel like they don't exist at all without one.  That isn't true for those of us with autonomous selves, which is most of us.

[vortex of confusion]

I find discussions of needs vs wants to be very fascinating.

As I read through this thread, I kept thinking about the three needs mentioned in the original post: food, water, and shelter. Food and water are pretty obvious. I was thinking more in terms of safety rather than shelter. I typically think of safety instead of shelter. The reason is that in some places, shelter may or may not be safe. I think it is dependent on context to some degree. I am not sure how to articulate what it is that I am thinking so bear with me.

What I am thinking is that emotional needs are very real. I am not thinking about it from the fulfilling warm fuzzy angle either. I am thinking about it more from a safety perspective. Even if a relatsionship is not very fulfilling, one can be okay with it. Where I think a disordered relationship becomes problematic is that it interferes with the basic need for safety. How can one feel safe when walking on eggshells? How can one feel safe when living in fear of what the other person is going to do next? It sets off the fight or flight response in our bodies. When a person is continually in fight or flight mode, it wears on the bodily systems and leads to fatigue and can cause other physical problems. The mind body connection is real.

Another thought I had while reading this thread is about Frankyl's book and unique situation. He was living in horrific conditions. He had no choice. I think some of what he said is very relevant and very helpful. I can't help but think that being in a disordered relationship is not the same. Frankly did not choose to be in his situation. He was a prisoner living in horrific conditions.

If a person is in a disordered relationship, he/she has the option to leave. Why do the mental gymnastics of figuring out what is a want vs a need in order to justify or heal from the relationship? I have asked myself that question quite often. I have found more healing in giving myself permission to have needs and wants. I don't have to justify why I feel that I want or need something. I want a partner that isn't going to get excited over the thought of me with somebody else. I would hardly qualify that as a need. I could find a way to live with it if I had no choice. I have a choice.

I think it helps healing when I stop trying to figure out the distinction between wants and needs with regards to my stbx. I will never understand why he wanted/needed his cuckold fantasies. I stopped trying to understand it for the most part. For me, it became easier when I was able to get to a place where I could focus on the fact that no matter how bogus some of his wants/needs seemed to me, they were his. Just like my wants and needs were mine. I could own my stuff without dismissing them by saying things like, "That isn't really a need." So what if it isn't a need. How is parsing things into want vs need helping me come to terms with reality? How is it helping me to raise my standards and take better care of myself?

And I wanted to address this: I want closure ... .I want accountability ... .I want an apology.

I think most people coming out of relationships want these things. It is okay to want them. I think the real healing begins when you realize that that you will never get them. Even if I were to get an apology, I wouldn't friggin' believe it. It would seem insincere and I would dismiss it.

I think the same goes for accountability. My stbx has only taken responsibility and accepted accountability when it suited him. I have asked myself time and time again, "what would it look like to hold him accountable for his actions?" For me, accountability would look like him admitting his crappy behavior and changing it and making things right. If it were possible for him to do that, then I wouldn't be ending the relationship. The lack of accountability is part of the reason that I cannot continue the relationship. Wanting it is magical thinking.

As for closure, I don't know that it will ever be truly possible. I have asked myself, "What does closure look like?" For me, closure would be getting answers to all of my questions about the hows and whys and being able to have answers so that I can keep from making the same mistakes in future relationships.

I also wanted to make another distinction about wants. It is okay to want whatever. When wants become problematic is when they are tied to expectations. I am reminded of how I handle it when my kids go to the store and want stuff. I don't tell them that they can't want things. I tell them, "Wow, that is pretty cool. Maybe we can put that on a wish list for later." I let them know that it is okay to want things and notice cool stuff. What isn't okay is when wants turn into demands used to torture other people. My stbx was/is really great about turning his wants into demands. He wants it therefore he will nag, beg, and keep at it until he gets it. It is maddening. ''

I think there is a similar process going on when people focus too much on wanting the closure, accountability, etc. It is easy to become fixated on it so that it becomes a demand. It is kind of like me wanting a convertible sports car. I know darn good and well that I will never be able to afford one. I have accepted that I will not get a convertible sports car. I can still look at them and want one. It is all about keeping reality in perspective. Being in a disordered relationship really skews ones perspective of reality in my opinion.

[C.Stein]

As for the three basic needs, I'd personally take food, water and clothing over shelter any day.

I look at clothing as bundled into the shelter need for modern man.  It is after all sheltering your body from the elements.  When I think of the fundamental needs of a human I think of the entire span of humanity, the needs of the human animal. not just modern day human.  So if you did not have access to clothing you would still need shelter, and even if you did, you still need some type of shelter in most environments.  When the animal is faced with environmental extremes the first instinct is to seek shelter from those extremes, appropriate clothing or not.

Still, I understand what you mean by needs and wants and I think this approach can work both ways in terms of healing. If I'm a complete codependent for instance, I may be ready to get rid of my needs thinking that they are wants and I can live without them. Likewise, as a codependent, in healing I may discover that certain elements of control that I think I'll die without are actually things I can do without and become happier (the 12 step approach and complete detachment). I reckon it depends on the mental state with which I'm interpreting what is a want and what is a need.

I personally think trying to apply basic needs for survival on relationship dynamics may be problematic (but I'm not very sure about why I'm thinking like this, I'm trying to discover this thinking through your posts). Yet, it seems to me that even though a relationship is not necessarily a need, there are things in it that I see as needs - which nevertheless remain outside my basic biological needs- because of the interpersonal aspect. Emotional satisfaction is the key for me here because without that, I feel really no need to be in a relationship. Single life is good enough. Things that keep my overall emotional satisfaction at a level which makes me want to stay in a relationship are my needs - no matter how obscure they are. Yes, I may survive biologically without them but I cannot survive as a healthy and satisfied emotional partner without them. Because we are talking within the framework of a relationship   , what is a want outside this (honesty from my partner) becomes a need in a relationship (if I'll survive emotionally and be happy as a partner).

Some definitions, probably should have included these in the first post.  The appropriate definitions from Merriam-Webster.  I used the first simple definition of the noun for both.  The parts in bold show the difference in thinking between the two.

Need:  A situation in which someone or something must do or have something

Want:  The state or condition of not having any or enough of something

It is worth noting that some of the definitions of "want" include the word "need". 

To avoid confusion, when I refer to a "relationship" below it is an intimate one even if I did not explicitly state it as such.

Some of my most emotionally balanced/grounded times in my life have been when I am not in an intimate relationship.  While I may miss the physical and emotional intimacy and closeness that comes with that intimate relationship I don't need it to be happy or for my emotional survival.   

I recognize this now as it being something I want ... .I want more than what I can get alone or in a non-intimate relationship without emotional and physical intimacy.  Now once I am in an intimate relationship then I can see how something you want can be seen as a need but is this the right way to view it?  Is the want that you now see as a need a personal need, a relationship need, or a need at all? 

This becomes a very grey area here because now the need is about the abstract (relationship) not something personally identifiable.  The relationship needs would not exist outside the context of a relationship so are they really personal needs at all?  Your "overall emotional satisfaction" isn't really a personal need as it is more a requirement/condition for a productive, healthy, emotionally satisfying relationship.

My biggest problem with the whole need vs. want issue within an intimate relationship is this.  Expressing something you want, something you desire for yourself as a need implies you cannot live without it, that you must have it.  It also implies there will be consequences if you don't get it.  It is quite acceptable to want certain things for yourself and while it is understandable that someone may have certain requirements in a relationship, expressing them as need seems to me somewhat demanding, self-entitled and selfish.   

I need you to do this for me!

I need you to provide this for me!

I need you to give this to me!

The implication here is you need something from someone else and if you don't get it there will be consequences.  There is an implied threat in this need requirement. 

Some examples of what might be considered a need inside the framework of a relationship.  The brackets denote the implied consequence/threat if the need is not met.

I need you to treat me with respect ... .(and if you don't I will _____?)

I need you to be honest with me ... .(and if you aren't I will _____?)

I need you to be faithful to me ... .(and if you aren't I will _____?)

Now look at these three key needs for any healthy relationship.   These aren't really personal needs within the framework of a relationship but rather a set of personal relationship requirements/conditions.  One might even argue these are universal requirements/conditions. 

You may think you need these but do you really?   How many people have been in a relationship where these three needs have been met at all times?   Be honest with yourself when you answer that question.

Let's look at some possible compromises on  these needs being met.  Brackets denote a "reasonable" compromise.

I need you to treat me with respect ... .(but it is ok if sometimes you don't as long as you always respect me in front of others).

I need you to be honest with me ... .(but it is ok if you aren't all the time as long as the lies aren't that big).

I need you to be faithful to me ... .(but I will tolerate you being unfaithful as long as you come back to me).

We have all been in at least one if not all of the above scenarios in a relationship and remained in the relationship despite the need not being met.  Do you see the problem here?  Once you have compromised on something you believe you need then how can you really call it a need anymore?  Recall the definition of need is something you must have.   

When your need goes unmet what happens to you emotionally?   Do you adjust and adapt?  Do you find another "vehicle" but remain in the relationship?  Do you emotionally "die"?  The idea of a need is it is something you must have ... .an all or nothing proposition ... .they are either met or they are not. 

I must have (need) food, water and shelter or else I will die. 

So what if your partner isn't always honest with you?  Do you walk away or do you compromise, tolerate, adapt?  When that happens doesn't this need become a want at that point?   If we look at the definition of a want then the scale that FHTH proposed starts to make more sense.

I want you to be honest with me ... .(but I understand no one is perfect and sometimes you may not always be honest with me (1-10) and I can live with that as long as you aren't dishonest about certain things (0)). 

When you frame it as a want you are recognizing human beings are imperfect creatures and there is no way another human being can completely emotionally fulfil you.  When you frame it as a need then the only way you will fill that need is if you are in a relationship with a duplicate of yourself.

My minimum in a relationship is not "Can I survive healthily without this", it is "Will I be emotionally satisfied/content/happy together with my partner" because that's the only reason why I (consciously) enter relationships. I've had to put those unfortunate brackets there because look at what I've done and where I'm writing this:)) So, for instance, giving 0 to one of the criteria in FHTH's list would not mean "not a need" for me, it would be an unmet need. 

Can you emotionally survive in a relationship if one of those needs goes unmet?  I believe the answer is yes, so at that point is it still a need if you can emotionally survive without it?

Exactly.  If a given vehicle (a relationship for example) is meeting several of our emotional needs at a high level, we won't leave.  If we aren't getting any of our needs met at more than a low level, that isn't an effective vehicle for meeting our needs, and we will look for other ways to meet them and/or leave.

If I were to have an emotional need for intimate emotional sex and that was not entirely met by my partner would it mean that I can (and would be justified to) find a new "vehicle" to meet that need? 

If all my other emotional needs are being met by my partner except one ... .? 

Do you see where this type of thinking can lead, especially within the mind of the borderline?

[fromheeltoheal]

Exactly.  If a given vehicle (a relationship for example) is meeting several of our emotional needs at a high level, we won't leave.  If we aren't getting any of our needs met at more than a low level, that isn't an effective vehicle for meeting our needs, and we will look for other ways to meet them and/or leave.

If I were to have an emotional need for intimate emotional sex and that was not entirely met by my partner would it mean that I can (and would be justified to) find a new "vehicle" to meet that need? 

In the context of emotional needs psychology sex is a vehicle we can use to meet our needs.  Think about it: you can meet all your needs for certainty, variety, love and connection, significance, contribution and growth through sex with your partner, or a couple of them, or none at all.  And in the larger context of the relationship, if your needs are not being met sexually you can have that conversation with your partner and it either gets resolved to both partner's satisfaction or it doesn't, and which point you can decide to stay, leave, or cheat, along with accept the consequences of the decision, emotional and otherwise.

If all my other emotional needs are being met by my partner except one ... .? 

Do you see where this type of thinking can lead, especially within the mind of the borderline?

Oh yes, the all or nothing thinking of a borderline is one thing, but for emotionally healthy people it's not necessary to get all of our needs met with a single vehicle, it fact it's better not to.  And it became clear that in my relationship, that vehicle, I wasn't and would never get any of my needs met, in fact the opposite, so I left.

This want vs need thing is big for you Stein; is there a specific goal you're working towards, and how is that going?

[thisworld]

C.Stein,

Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking reply to my comments. Your threads are a pleasure and they truly help me. After the painted black/white discussion, I was able to make sense of how things worked in my relationship.

Here are my comments about your questions, reply:

I don’t believe that I can look at human needs/wants and even feelings without historicizing them as I see emotions partly as things that can be subjected to a cultural-political analysis. So I can't find something valid for the entire span of humanity apart from a couple of things. Neither do I think I need it. When I look at my relationship, one major need/want of mine was honesty, my biggest insecurity was triangulations and potential infidelity. Lack of the first would not activate any emotions at a time when “truth” as a concept was not necessarily valued, the second would mean nothing outside a cultural conditioning of monogamy basically. Under different social circumstances, I might be worshipping a psychotic as a shaman and respect him. I agree that some basic biological needs would not change (although what we understand from them has largely evolved, how much food we think we need would largely differ from that of our ancestors). And an interpersonal relationship occurs with more stuff than those recognized concrete basic needs to me.

Also, like Vortex of Confusion, I think emotional safety has always been as critical as food, shelter and water. I’m thinking of arts and religion. We have had them from very times onwards. I’m an atheist myself but I cannot deny the psychological aspect of religion that has made us have it from very early times onward. Likewise for art. What is it that makes these early humans with simple basic needs seek some form of self-expression? That has always been there, too. I understand these as signs that we cannot simply be satisfied by food, shelter, water. Actually, what is the justification for thinking about a relationship with these basic needs only? We say they are for survival. Why think about relationships with the same criteria (minimum) rather than say spiritual satisfaction? The transfer of biological basics as minimum criteria to something about the satisfaction of the soul as each of us understands it seems only optional to me.

Again, art makes me think that the basic needs may not be that certain, not that absolutely. Food, water, shelter are things that nature somehow gives us so that we can biologically survive. However, the second we survive we start inventing things outside nature to satisfy other needs. Is art, or self-expression a want if it has been with us throughout our entire journey? Likewise, is human life consequent moments of survival or does something else happen there whilst we are surviving? Simply survival is a very difficult thought sometimes. Actually, we are more paradoxical than that because each moment we survive, we are also dying. What would be the implications for an organism that has consciousness and a subconscious? I'm asking these because our basic concepts  for this discussion shape what's to come.

Your comment about needs and wants is interesting.  Never thought about it that way actually. (English is not my native language so please don’t worry if I’m completely misunderstanding this. I don’t want you to find yourself having to teach English to someone on a support site now, we already have enough on our shoulders ) I’ll learn it myself I have always understood want in our context as the third meaning in Merriam-Webster in the online version I can find (11th ed.), which is a wish for something, desire. When you used want in your original post, I understood it as the verb form of this want. But again, I’m not a native speaker, so to me the verb form of your definition of “want” is “to be in want of something” and to my foreign mind, that (lacking something) doesn’t mean automatically mean to want something, to desire something. Maybe this is a cultural difference in perception. So much for universality of our human condition anyway.

I, too, don’t feel that I need a relationship to be happy or for my emotional survival. I completely agree with you that it’s a want, one which allows me to experience a different kind of happiness I can feel through something interpersonal. But in my view, the categorical change of wants into needs doesn’t exactly happen there. I’ll try to use letters as this can get too wordy for us because of my language skills. When I’m single I’m T (Thisworld). I need x,y,z (food, shelter, the Internet ) but I don’t need p,q,m (fidelity, honesty from a partner, assurance from a partner). P,q,m cannot even qualify as needs because I’m not in a condition to need/want/have them, I’m single. When I’m in a relationship I’m T+TP (Thisworld + Thisworld As Someone's Partner). For TP to experience enough good things to remain in the relationship (so that she doesn’t revert to single T, which she can do any time) p,q,m must be there. That’s why p,q,m are my relationships needs. I must have them to be T-TP. My want is the relationship. But these are needs.

Now are they really? Can I survive happily in a relationship without them? Are they actually wants that look like needs? I can survive, I can even survive happily, but as T, not as TP. I can fully detach and live like a single, happy person in a relationship. However, I cannot experience aspects of being TP, that different kind of happiness that comes from connection because I have closed certain parts of my self to my partner. I don’t feel hurt anymore but neither do I get the happiness I would experience if p,q,m were there. The relationship doesn’t threaten my survival as T but I can’t experience the TP at its full potential and to me, the relationship becomes unnecessary.      

I come to a relationship with some ideas about these. They are based on my independent values (unshakable ones, I see them as needs) and interdependent values (hmm, maybe I can give up on this for this partner, I realize that these may be wants). I also discover that some things I thought were my needs are actually wants. I think this changes for everyone.  

I think your example statements that indicate selfishness are significant. However, functionwise, I read those as polite commands anyway. To me, they are actually not even wants (desire, wish), they are polished orders expressed in a socially more acceptable way. When I spoke to my secretary like that it simply meant “do this.” The same thing can also be expressed as a polite request, but both of us know that it’s not actually a request (she gets fired if she rejects all these “requests” – like the “consequences” you mention) I think the function is more meaningful than the form in your examples. It’s not about the meaning of need, it’s about the function this word carries in these examples (command).  

The other examples (I need you to treat me with respect…) Of course, there will be consequence. "I need you to treat me with respect and if you don’t I will leave." This is different from the orders above because in orders, people lose something that belongs to them if they don't comply. In this one, there will be a consequence but I'll not punish them with something like that. I'll leave and I don't belong to them anyway. This consequence may be changed as well.  I think it is only natural that unmet needs have consequences because haven’t we defined need as something we must have for whatever reason? That’s why, to me a need is yes also a condition, a requirement. Needs are the very conditions. Actually, I’m low-maintenance, so usually my only conditions, requirements are my needs. Why do you think a need can not also be a requirement, a condition? Like if someone decides to move me to Jupiter, I would declare water (basic need) as my condition or requirement to accept moving. And yes, my abstract needs are only personal, not universal or anything. Most of the time I’ll have a justification for my needs, wants, choices (hopefully an informed one because I like knowing why I’m doing what I’m doing) but I don’t ask my partner to satisfy them because they are justified. I ask my partner to satisfy them for my happiness and this is something mutual. If we try to change each other’s mind about something, we can sure try to influence each other. Sometimes, I may have the right, the best, the most developed justification but if my partner doesn’t want to change, I can’t expect them on the basis of my justification. There is a whole person with vulnerabilities, a different past, reasonable/unreasonable feelings, weaknesses between my idea and my justification. And I want to experience that person, not my justification.

To answer your question for which you requested honesty, I think you are very right. Most human beings are not capable of fulfilling these all the time, which brings us back to FHTH’s comment about varying degrees of things that result in satisfaction or dissatisfaction. Along these lines, I get my cues not from Yes/No, but from “to what degree.” Then a need is not something that I must have at all times (this "all times" is not in your definition, e,ther.  Likewise, I can go without food or water up to certain hours but will die after a certain time. These don't have to be there all the time but should be there to a certain degree (I’m petite so I can do with one small portion of food every day but it will be different for you, still it’s a need for both of us.)  

What happens to me when a need goes unmet? I don't immediately die of course. A bit of disappointment first. I used to get frustrated in the past but now I know better:))  I try to meet my need, generate some change. Is my partner truly incapable of changing this? Is it worth letting go? Depends. I need to be with someone who respects my body boundaries (i.e. is not a rapist). With this, I don’t adjust or adapt. I need to be assured sometimes to take risks. I’d like to receive this from my partner, but if he’s a good person overall who nevertheless cannot give this to me, I may seek assurance from my best girlfriend. If all my needs are unmet, my desire vanishes. However, contrary to what you are saying, I don’t need to give 10 out of 10 in everything to be 100% satisfied. In me, it’s not mathematical like that. I notice a fuzziness and very deep feelings in myself and understand that I’m fully satisfied. This can happen with a partner who overall scores 70 maybe. But he is my 70 There are so many other things in this unique 70 that I prefer him to being with an 80 that I don’t find as lovable. There are things about people outside the criteria we are talking about. I’m completely fine with human imperfection. I love imperfection. I just don’t adjust myself if I define my relationship as “abusive”, that’s all. I don’t decide to let go and try to be unaffected by abuse by changing my perspective on things by reassessing whether I can live with or without them. I define my relationship with my ex partner as abusive. And yes, people emotionally die in extreme or elongated abusive situations. Sometimes, they even get dissociative disorder and come up with different persons in themselves to be able to accommodate the pain. He would never abuse me to that degree but why carry on if T+TP is only as happy as T? Getting rid of my needs or wants can ensure not being hurt but they don't bring anything more than the detached happiness I experience on my own. I'll probably have moments of joy with my partner even, but given the overall situation, the proportion will not be something I enjoy. My partner was simply too tiring for me despite more or less reasonable boundaries. This is my condition. I wouldn't know about yours.  

You mention one partially unmet need and whether it justifies finding a new “vehicle” to meet that need? I personally don’t agree with the term “vehicle” here but the answer depends I guess. If this is something so critical that I honestly can’t be without, I think it would be best to leave that relationship and try to find what I’m looking for. That would only be fair to both partners.  If I feel that it’s that important, then I would feel justified. Nobody can judge me on that because they would be talking about their own expectations anyway. They can choose to stay, I can choose to go. Both are justified. This would make me a bad person in some eyes, and an honest person in some other eyes. Values should match, that’s all. They have to respect my choice.  And partners should be honest and open about it, so that everyone can decide for themselves. That’s how I see it.  

Your last comment, however, is something I disagree with. Why should I  judge my thinking with where it can lead in the borderline mind? Consequences of a certain line of thinking in a mentally disordered person’s mind doesn’t tell me much about myself.  

[C.Stein]

This want vs need thing is big for you Stein; is there a specific goal you're working towards, and how is that going?

I think the reason I have brought this discussion to the board is multi-faceted.  First and foremost I wanted to discuss something more productive then how my ex destroyed me.  I also find myself thinking on what my ex had told me she needs and what I think I need in my life and within an intimate relationship.  I wanted to examine the idea of wants/needs within a group setting as I am not all that clear on the distinction myself, especially within the context of an intimate relationship.  I find this a very subjective issue, which can be seen by the wide variety of thoughts presented in this discussion.  As is usually the case with me, discussion of topics like this can lead to better clarity within myself and hopefully others.  

As an example with respect to my ex and relationship with her I briefly touched on this subject in one of my last emails with regard to her desperate need for a family at all costs.  Her need for this overrode all other considerations, including me and the health of our relationship.  In the end it has become clear she only considered me a means to an end, which explains to some extent how she could so easily throw me away.  I was an object to be used to achieve/get her need fulfilled.  When she no longer thought she could get that need fulfilled by me I was thrown away like a piece of trash.  I have had many "relationships" in my life but I don't believe I have ever been so coldly and completely discarded/deleted by someone who once claimed I was the love of her life and her future.  So I wonder, did she love ME or the dream I shared with her that I would fulfil her need for a family?  Certainly the latter seems now to be more true than the former.  This obviously leads me to question the concept of love, which has led me now to question the needs vs wants issue as it relates to "love".

In any event, in my email I pointed out to her that this desperate need for a family is not really a need at all, it is something she should want.  She literally told me in last two texts to me (eg. the final discard) that if she doesn't have a family to look forward to in the future then she has nothing to live for.  She said she was contemplating suicide as a result.  I see that particular text as having three potential meanings.  

First, it could have been an honest assessment of how she feels, and this may be at least partially true.  

Second, it could have been an attempt to manipulate me to do something she wanted as this is something she has done many times in the past.  

Third, it could have been an attempt to justify what she had done (was doing) to me ... .the affair and the discard.    

The third is more likely to be true than the other two, although at the time of the text I saw it as another attempt to manipulate me as I wasn't consciously thinking I had been replaced.  Problem with the third intent is she had no concrete reason to believe she couldn't get that need filled with me when she discarded me about a month before that text.  However NOW I am almost certain she is using this as justification/reason to make herself feel right in what she has done.  I can confidently say she has likely now demonized me in order to avoid feeling like she is a bad person.  This will almost certainly never change and naturally this cuts deep.

The thing is her thinking is not necessarily unique to her or to a borderline with respect to the general topic of how we as human beings think of, express\expect and achieve our various needs and wants.  She was so utterly consumed with this need that nothing else mattered ... .including me and the health of the relationship ... .which just so happens are the very things she needed to fulfil that need.  In the end it is obvious she didn't need me to fulfil that for her even though at one time she made me feel she did.

So then I start to think about how we think of these things we believe we need.  How far do we go to get them fulfilled and at what cost?  Are we so consumed with getting a perceived need filled that we are willing to sacrifice the very people/relationship that will achieve that fulfilment?

As others have recently touch on, the issue of emotional safety/security is something that I felt I needed and with good reason.  I believe everyone wants to feel emotional safe and secure with the person they have given their heart to.  However when I didn't feel safe and secure I withdrew and distanced myself.  While this may be an understandable defensive response it did nothing to resolve the issue of the perceived need not being fulfilled.  I didn't go looking somewhere else to get this need fulfilled I just accepted/tolerated/rationalized the reality.

Now I wonder if I had perceived this need as something I wanted perhaps I wouldn't have been inclined to withdraw and distance myself as much?  Perhaps I wouldn't have felt so hurt by the things she did that made me feel emotionally unsafe and insecure with her?  Perhaps I would have been more inclined to try and work through it instead of withdrawing like a wounded animal?

This is still something I am unclear on and since it is a fundamental shift in thinking I am uncertain how my own behavior might have differed as a result of thinking differently.  While the past is the past I would hope to at least gain something other than a massive hole in my heart (among many other damaging things) as a result of this relationship.  

One of my drafted but unsent emails I expressed things I thought I needed.  The relevant section follows with the words need and want highlighted.


In order for me to feel secure building a family with you I need to feel secure in our relationship and know that we can provide a healthy and loving home for a child, not one filled with emotional turmoil and pain.  I need your honesty, respect and caring ... .your empathy and compassion when I am hurting.  I need to feel emotionally safe with you and to emotionally trust you.  I need to know you will not run away when things get tough.  I need you to be there for me just as much as you need me to be there for you.  I need stability, permanence and constancy with you.  These are not unreasonable needs for anyone to have and I know you want these very same things for yourself.  Is it wrong of me to want these things?  Is it wrong of me to want a healthy relationship for a family?


As you can see, I was inconsistent with my own thinking when I wrote this about a month ago.  I express explicit needs but then I group them all together as something I want.  When I read this I see feelings of desperation and implied demands.  These are not unreasonable things to expect and want from your partner and a relationship, however this need need need seems all consuming and somewhat self-centered even if the expressed needs will likely benefit both people and the relationship as a whole.

So now I discuss it here in an attempt to better understand the issue, myself and others.


@thisworld

Tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

[eeks]

C. Stein, you may be interested to read Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.

NVC uses the term "needs", https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/needs_inventory_0.pdf and some people do have this question about it, how is anything beyond food, water and shelter a "need"?  I'm not sure what a better word would be.  Interests?  Imperatives? Things that tend to be important to humans?

NVC also makes a distinction between "needs" and "strategies" to get those needs met.  For instance, your ex said she needs a family (by which I assume you mean, she felt she needed to marry you - or someone - and have kids?)  She doesn't need a family, having a family is a strategy to meet needs (maybe intimacy, support, companionship)

The other thing is, people have the right to have their needs met but we aren't entitled to demand that another person meet our need according to a particular strategy, or else. 

[thisworld]

C.Stein, thank you for the warning. I didn't notice. I've emptied my message box now.

[thisworld]

C.Stein,

I'm sorry that you are being blacked and it hurts.

I've been thinking about my partner's distinction between needs and wants. He doesn't have it. This may be related to addiction as well, but many thought patterns between addiction and BPD are strikingly similar - as are some recovery exercises. My partner had habitual instant gratification and low executive control, everything had to happen in the now. I think a "need" was anything a need/want that had to be satisfied right there and then, had this urgency about it. Maybe that's why, all wants were experienced as needs by him - though he rarely expressed his needs and sadly, I think he didn't deserve many of those. At the same time, he had very entitled behaviours. It was difficult for me.

I think when I use the words "need" and "want", I don't always use them exactly knowing whether that's a "need" or "want". I guess I could equally approach it from a different discourse and say "it's my human right" but mean exactly the same thing - though this could be funny in some conversations I think, though, when I use the word "need", there is an emotional need/want? there. I need/want my partner to recognize the importance or the urgency of the matter to me and maybe give me what I need/want. There is more of a plea thing. When I'm using "want", I'm experiencing the aspect of my self that is thinking more along the lines of individual choice, initiative, being an agent etc. And sometimes, I think saying "want" three consecutive times would make me sound like a spoilt brat in my own ears, so I may say "need."  That's just a prejudice actually because I can state each of those on different days and not feel spoilt. But discourse has associations and emotional effects on us.

I see nothing contradictory in your e-mail. You want your needs to be fulfilled. You want your needs to be there. You want your needs. Is that not normal?

Thanks again for this topic.

Best,

[C.Stein]

I don’t believe that I can look at human needs/wants and even feelings without historicizing them as I see emotions partly as things that can be subjected to a cultural-political analysis. So I can't find something valid for the entire span of humanity apart from a couple of things. Neither do I think I need it. When I look at my relationship, one major need/want of mine was honesty, my biggest insecurity was triangulations and potential infidelity. Lack of the first would not activate any emotions at a time when “truth” as a concept was not necessarily valued, the second would mean nothing outside a cultural conditioning of monogamy basically. Under different social circumstances, I might be worshipping a psychotic as a shaman and respect him. I agree that some basic biological needs would not change (although what we understand from them has largely evolved, how much food we think we need would largely differ from that of our ancestors). And an interpersonal relationship occurs with more stuff than those recognized concrete basic needs to me.

The primary reason for the 3 basic needs was to illustrate things we must have to survive.  As with everything in life, especially within the mind of a self-aware animal, things can become rather grey instead of the cut and dry reality of your typical unaware animal.

Honesty is also very important to me in a relationship and could be seen as a major need/want for me as well.  I had thought it was the same for my ex, mostly because she said it was (apparently that didn't apply to herself).  This issue of the need/want for honesty is a difficult one to traverse though.  Not a single one of us is 100% honest all the time.  So where do we draw the line here?  One would presume a need for honesty would mean always, but then we might tolerate someone being less than honest about little things that might hurt our feelings (ex. your new shirt makes you look fat). 

So in this case the need becomes a want.  We really don't need our partners to be completely honest with us at all times.  Muddy ground for sure because the decision to be honest or not then becomes subjective!  One person will be comfortable with being dishonest about certain things while the other will see it as a violation of trust.  My ex didn't see anything wrong with an elaborate deception which involved numerous direct lies for nearly a month yet I saw it as a major violation of the trust I had given her.  To make matters worse she never showed any real guilt or remorse for the damage she had done to me and our relationship.  She said she was sorry and that she had screwed up, but how sincerely sorry can one be when they don't believe they did anything wrong?  Yet believe you me, if the shoe was on the other foot ... .!

I would also say infidelity is an insecurity for me and my ex fed that insecurity in a big way, to the extent it kept me in a near constant state of fear and anxiety.  This speaks to the need to feel emotionally secure.  While it is not the only factor that plays into emotional security it is a big one particularly in a monogamous relationship.  This need is debatable however.  We certainly want emotional security but realistically speaking we can't expect to always feel emotionally secure, relationship or not.  That said, I did feel a strong need for emotional security with my ex and the lack of feeling it kept me from really trusting her.  The more she compromised my emotional security the more I withdrew and distanced myself.  Now I wonder if I my thinking was less about "I need" and more "I want" perhaps I would have emotionally been in a better place when she unknowingly (and knowingly) compromised my emotional security.

I think we can all probably agree we feel more emotionally secure when we are not emotionally invested with another person.   This would mean if I really need/want to feel the most emotionally secure I will not become emotionally involved/invested with another person.  As you can see this directly conflicts with a need/want for emotional satisfaction, if that satisfaction involves becoming emotionally intimate with another person.  This illustrates how the responsibility for our emotional security sits completely on our shoulders.  When we choose to become emotionally involved with another person we are also choosing to put at risk our own emotional security.  Yet within the context of a relationship we mostly see our need for emotional security as something our partner is responsible for, however they are not.  I do indeed want my partner to provide me with a sense of emotional security however if I truly needed to feel the most emotionally secure I would choose not to become emotionally invested with another person at all.  Perhaps this can in part explain why some people find the borderline emotionally shallow, this lack of investment?

Also, like Vortex of Confusion, I think emotional safety has always been as critical as food, shelter and water. I’m thinking of arts and religion. We have had them from very times onwards. I’m an atheist myself but I cannot deny the psychological aspect of religion that has made us have it from very early times onward. Likewise for art. What is it that makes these early humans with simple basic needs seek some form of self-expression? That has always been there, too. I understand these as signs that we cannot simply be satisfied by food, shelter, water. Actually, what is the justification for thinking about a relationship with these basic needs only? We say they are for survival. Why think about relationships with the same criteria (minimum) rather than say spiritual satisfaction? The transfer of biological basics as minimum criteria to something about the satisfaction of the soul as each of us understands it seems only optional to me.

This shows how truly subjective the whole issue is.  The notion of a soul and spirituality has strong religious connotation.  What does this mean within the mind of an atheist, this need for satisfying the soul/spirit?  Some people will argue atheism is a religion so I personally do not label myself as atheist, agnostic, etc ... .even if some might label me an atheist and I did as well earlier in life.  I haven't given much thought to this question and perhaps it deserves some attention within my own mind.   I certainly have referred to and thought of a "soul" many times, especially when connecting/bonding with another person on a very deep level, whatever that means.

So this concept of my soul/spirit ... .what does it need?  I think this question brings us back to emotional security.  We need/want to feel emotionally secure so we can allow another person to bond with our "soul".  You know, even as I type this I don't really have a grasp on what it means to bond with our soul even though I felt I achieved this bond with my ex at one point. 

How does one define a need or want, for something that is as intangible as the soul/spirit?  This is especially a problem within the mind of an atheist even if there is a considerable body of anecdotal evidence that suggests the existence of a "spirit".  Regardless it brings us back to the problem of how to define and appease a need/want for something we really can't truly grasp?

Again, art makes me think that the basic needs may not be that certain, not that absolutely. Food, water, shelter are things that nature somehow gives us so that we can biologically survive. However, the second we survive we start inventing things outside nature to satisfy other needs. Is art, or self-expression a want if it has been with us throughout our entire journey? Likewise, is human life consequent moments of survival or does something else happen there whilst we are surviving? Simply survival is a very difficult thought sometimes. Actually, we are more paradoxical than that because each moment we survive, we are also dying. What would be the implications for an organism that has consciousness and a subconscious? I'm asking these because our basic concepts  for this discussion shape what's to come.

Perhaps this is nothing more than a consequence of self-awareness, an attempt to define and understand our own reality.  Much of this stuff really has no context outside of our own mind.  We are in a perpetual struggle to reach some understanding of ourselves as we related to others and our environment.  We feel a need to understand and attach meaning to abstract concepts like love, feelings, souls, but again do we need to understand these things?  Can we ever truly understand something which in essence is abstract subjectivism?  When someone accepts every unknown does not need to be be known then it just becomes a want in my mind.   The sense of urgency to understand, to know is no longer there.  This might even be considered a basic tenet of atheism and perhaps Buddhism, although I am not well versed enough on either to speak with certainty.

I have always understood want in our context as the third meaning in Merriam-Webster in the online version I can find (11th ed.), which is a wish for something, desire. When you used want in your original post, I understood it as the verb form of this want.

This is completely understandable.   Most people will think of "want" as a verb because that is how it is most frequently used.  Within the context of comparing a need vs a want we need to use the noun form of each.

I, too, don’t feel that I need a relationship to be happy or for my emotional survival. I completely agree with you that it’s a want, one which allows me to experience a different kind of happiness I can feel through something interpersonal. But in my view, the categorical change of wants into needs doesn’t exactly happen there. I’ll try to use letters as this can get too wordy for us because of my language skills. When I’m single I’m T (Thisworld). I need x,y,z (food, shelter, the Internet ) but I don’t need p,q,m (fidelity, honesty from a partner, assurance from a partner). P,q,m cannot even qualify as needs because I’m not in a condition to need/want/have them, I’m single. When I’m in a relationship I’m T+TP (Thisworld + Thisworld As Someone's Partner). For TP to experience enough good things to remain in the relationship (so that she doesn’t revert to single T, which she can do any time) p,q,m must be there. That’s why p,q,m are my relationships needs. I must have them to be T-TP. My want is the relationship. But these are needs.

Now are they really? Can I survive happily in a relationship without them? Are they actually wants that look like needs? I can survive, I can even survive happily, but as T, not as TP. I can fully detach and live like a single, happy person in a relationship. However, I cannot experience aspects of being TP, that different kind of happiness that comes from connection because I have closed certain parts of my self to my partner. I don’t feel hurt anymore but neither do I get the happiness I would experience if p,q,m were there. The relationship doesn’t threaten my survival as T but I can’t experience the TP at its full potential and to me, the relationship becomes unnecessary.

I believe this is a very important concept to explore here.  Individuality within an intimate relationship.    I would think there exists at times a conflict of wants/needs, those of the individuals and those of the "couple".   I think perhaps the line becomes a bit blurry here with respect to wants/needs that we must fulfil for ourselves, those we feel need to be fulfilled by our partner and those which take a concerted effort on the part of both individuals for the relationship as a whole.  I feel problems arise when we expect our partners to fulfil something we should be fulfilling for ourselves.  I also feel there can be problems when wants/needs of the relationship take precedence over those of the individuals.

You mention one partially unmet need and whether it justifies finding a new “vehicle” to meet that need? I personally don’t agree with the term “vehicle” here but the answer depends I guess. If this is something so critical that I honestly can’t be without, I think it would be best to leave that relationship and try to find what I’m looking for. That would only be fair to both partners.  If I feel that it’s that important, then I would feel justified. Nobody can judge me on that because they would be talking about their own expectations anyway. They can choose to stay, I can choose to go. Both are justified. This would make me a bad person in some eyes, and an honest person in some other eyes. Values should match, that’s all. They have to respect my choice.  And partners should be honest and open about it, so that everyone can decide for themselves. That’s how I see it.

This brings us back to the perception of a need.  What is a reasonable need vs something we merely want?  Certainly, as many will attest here, there are things a borderline might perceive as a justifiable need that is destructive and abusive.  For example the need to feel good about themselves, or to look like a good person in the eyes of others.  I feel when someone views something that probably should be considered a want as a need it justifies almost any course of action to fulfil that need.  This obviously can bring a relationship to a place where the ice is thin.

Your last comment, however, is something I disagree with. Why should I  judge my thinking with where it can lead in the borderline mind? Consequences of a certain line of thinking in a mentally disordered person’s mind doesn’t tell me much about myself.

That comment wasn't intended as a comparison between minds.  The borderline part was to point out how easily a borderline might fall into this type of thinking as a means to justify and excuse any questionable action.

[C.Stein]

C. Stein, you may be interested to read Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.

NVC uses the term "needs", https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/needs_inventory_0.pdf and some people do have this question about it, how is anything beyond food, water and shelter a "need"?  I'm not sure what a better word would be.  Interests?  Imperatives? Things that tend to be important to humans?

NVC also makes a distinction between "needs" and "strategies" to get those needs met.  For instance, your ex said she needs a family (by which I assume you mean, she felt she needed to marry you - or someone - and have kids?)  She doesn't need a family, having a family is a strategy to meet needs (maybe intimacy, support, companionship)

The other thing is, people have the right to have their needs met but we aren't entitled to demand that another person meet our need according to a particular strategy, or else.  

Thanks Eeks.  I read through the list but I have a hard time seeing many of those as a need for me personally, although I can see how some might.

The need my ex has for family was primarily to have a child and to have a "family" because she felt she never really had one as a child.  Problem is I believe this need, which should really be a want, doesn't come from a good place.  I believe she subconsciously see this need as a means to fix herself, to make her a good person, to fill some emptiness inside.  

We talked about children and what raising one would entail and she never really understood.  She looks at posed "happy family" pictures and movies and thinks this is what a family is all about.   She literally thinks the "happy families" she sees in movies is what family life is really going to be like.   I don't believe she truly grasps how difficult and frustrating, even heart breaking at times, raising a child and family life can be.   She wants (needs) someone to give her the Disney fantasy family and I felt she really doesn't care how she gets it and she certainly doesn't understand she will never get it.  Further, she didn't seem to care about building the type of relationship that would even stand a chance at achieving this fantasy need, or at least that is what her actions said.  She wants to win the marathon without running the race.

She also clearly didn't care about me either as she repeatedly damaged our relationship and me, expecting me to just get over it (i.e. be a lapdog).  I obliged her for a while too until the damage was so great I essentially emotionally died and she didn't seem to care one bit.  When it came time for her to make an effort, especially with regard to repairing the damage she had done, she couldn't/didn't do it.  In essence she sabotaged the very thing she felt she needs the most and when the damage was too much for her to face she ran to another man.  She had intimacy, support, companionship with me but the more she hurt me the further she pushed me away.  I truly don't believe she will ever fully grasp how her behavior impacts the people she claims to love.

[thisworld]

Hey C.Stein,

Thank you for your reply. Again, lots of food for thought I have been thinking about honesty. It’s something I’m trying to work on in the awareness board. Eeks gave me some feedback about it, and I think it’s important for my future I think both emotional security and honesty are things I expect to a certain degree. It’s almost like my gut decides what level is good. That feeling tells me something, it says go, it says stay. But if it says stay, it may not necessarily mean I don’t have to work on things and also on myself to increase the level of honesty and emotional security I receive.

My honesty (and also my lack of it) has been in my life in different ways. Usually, it’s a principle, like respect. I feel I have to be honest to people – even if it means losing them- because I respect people’s free will and want mine to be respected. I have written here before that some values are as important to me as basic needs – I think I’m a value-oriented person, I’m OK with it. This free will is something like that. I don’t want to experience love given to me if the person would not choose to if he knew the entire truth about me.

At the same time, when I hide my truth a lot, I feel I’m being indirectly dishonest, too, sometimes. The live and let live principle is important to me. I’ve been conditioned to hide myself this with my mother – but this is somehow ever evolving-  and emotional abusers trigger this in me. (Fair enough, I don’t believe in being 100% with emotional abusers in an ongoing relationship.) I like that gut reaction.

Again, sometimes, just reporting everything out of conditioning may not be honesty in itself exactly. 

In relationships though, I believe, honesty is not always an idealistic principle. Sometimes, people want to be honest but feel in danger – will I judge them? Will I show a negative reaction? Maybe they have received a conditioning like that. In that sense, I believe I have to give emotional security to my partner in order to receive honesty. This doesn’t need to (and sometimes cannot) change the consequences of an action but I can do things to improve the situation. Then it’s an act of trust for them to give being honest a try. In this sense, I think lies are not always a moral weakness but they may stem from a need for safety.

However, with some people it doesn’t work. With my ex, creating an emotionally safer environment through acceptance improves his openness. However, I also know that this feeling of danger is not directly related with me and will be there unless he takes some responsibility for his feelings. That is, no matter what I do to the best of my power as I see it, he will always be lying to me in some things. I have no motivation to change everything about myself so I’m not lied to. (I also know and feel that he is capable of abusing this kind of effort to guilt me). In this relationship example, honesty is an unrealistic goal. 

I don’t see my emotional safety as something my partner is solely responsible for. But if we are in a relationship, I do expect mutual work for everyone’s emotional safety so that the relationship is worth staying in for. In the end of the day, I have given up a big guarantee to ensure that safety (singledom) to be with them. I have friends who have decided for a variety of reasons to stay in relationships with emotionally dysfunctional partners. They do this through complete detachment. This doesn’t mean that they don’t need emotional safety. It means they have accepted that they can’t have it with a certain partner in a particular way and that’s why they stopped expecting it in that relationship. The need is there but they satisfy it in alternative ways. Between something (emotional safety) being a need and not being a need anymore, there stands the choice of accepting and letting go. But that ultimately changes the nature of a relationship. Also, to me, it’s not a need that you can give up with every single person in your life. When you give it up for someone in a particular relationship, it doesn’t mean that you can know relate to everyone without that need at all. I think it would be a very unhealthy world because why are we relating at all then? Some people think, OK I’ll not have this with my nearest and dearest but I’ll satisfy it through friends, circles, sponsors, family whomever. Some people don’t choose to. One thing that I find very interesting in my 12 steps experience is this: When I joined my home group, everyone was talking about acceptance etc. So, I thought, wow, will I have to accept everything, give up on everything an live? I couldn’t comprehend what was going on. Then I realized that in my home group, many people who accepted their situation and managed to let go of the need for emotional safety with their partner actually left their relationships at some point. Not in desperation, not in turmoil but by comfortable and peaceful choice.  I personally don’t want to live in a relationship where I adjust to living without that need (because I posit this as a need, this would be “adjusting” for me), someone else who doesn’t posit it at a need would not call it adjusting, it’s subjective. I feel I don’t need that relationship. I think the question do I need this asked about hurtful things is as helpful as asking it about positive concepts.  For instance, I may not need emotional safety coming from a partner, but I may not need silly lies and triangulations, either. Which one do I need less? I’ll give up that one, i.e. a relationship of lies and triangulations.

As for the soul/spirit. Yes, it has religious connotations but as an atheist, to me it doesn’t. (By the way, atheism to me is a belief or a political stance by choice as well. The rational, logically sound thing would be agnosticisim as I cannot prove that something doesn’t exist.) In some languages like German for example, the Geist may mean both the spirit and the mind and it’s possible to look at this thing without certain transcendental or metaphysical aspects. In either case, to me, there is something in “I” that is more than the sum of its parts as I know them, and that’s my soul or spirit. That thing speaks to me through my gut reactions. I suppose I could call it “self” but then I suppose this thing includes stuff that I don’t know about my self and that causes other problems of definition. So, I’d rather call it my soul/spirit – I don’t feel the religious connotations though. This may be because I was raised in a family without faith so I don’t feel like I gave up on something. I think everyone would relate differently. 

[JaneStorm]

A great book I read on an international flight years ago - the title and author escape me, was written by a man who survived auschwitz during the holocaust. It's written from the viewpoint of just this, that how one can in fact survive under the most horrific set of circumstances. It involves living inside yourself, and forgetting what is outside.

Viktor Frankle's Man's Search for Meaning? It changed my life, many years ago.