BPD and NPD question

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have been trying to find the answer to this online but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Maybe someone on here may be able to help.

If I am correct, in a nutshell a person with NPD lacks empathy (less empathy than someone with BPD) and has shallow emotions,  they dont care or love anyone apart from themselves. They only have mood swings when someone injures their superior view of themselves. Wheras a person with BPD has too many emotions and feels them very strongly for other people. They feel like they really really love someone and then feel like they hate them.

I really can't work out whether my ex was a npd, BPD or both. He did appear to be very emotional and impulsive. He would do the usual love and hate thing, say he wanted to marry me and I am the love of his life and then he would get annoyed at something minor and threaten to get back with his ex or join a dating site if I didnt do as he said. He did seem to care about me genuinly at times and would say anything to hurt me when he felt I had hurt him or tried to leave him.

What are the emotions of someone with BPD comorbid with npd? If an npd'd feelings are shallow and lacking and a BPD's is strong and fluctuating, what are the emotions experienced by someone with both conditions?

[klacey3]

I have been trying to find the answer to this online but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Maybe someone on here may be able to help.

If I am correct, in a nutshell a person with NPD lacks empathy (less empathy than someone with BPD) and has shallow emotions,  they dont care or love anyone apart from themselves. They only have mood swings when someone injures their superior view of themselves. Wheras a person with BPD has too many emotions and feels them very strongly for other people. They feel like they really really love someone and then feel like they hate them.

I really can't work out whether my ex was a npd, BPD or both. He did appear to be very emotional and impulsive. He would do the usual love and hate thing, say he wanted to marry me and I am the love of his life and then he would get annoyed at something minor and threaten to get back with his ex or join a dating site if I didnt do as he said. He did seem to care about me genuinly at times and would say anything to hurt me when he felt I had hurt him or tried to leave him.

What are the emotions of someone with BPD comorbid with npd? If an npd'd feelings are shallow and lacking and a BPD's is strong and fluctuating, what are the emotions experienced by someone with both conditions?

[GreenEyedMonster]

They aren't necessarily polar opposites.  You might wish to start by reading the DSM-5 description of narcissism.  I think you will find that it offers more detail on their inner lives than you may have read before.

Also, there is a great article called Narcissistic Personality Disorder:  Rethinking What We Know by Giancarlo Dimaggio published on the website Psychiatric Times.  You have to sign up for a free subscription for the Pychiatric Times to read it, but it's a peer-reviewed source.  I think it will really help you gain a better understanding of narcissism and see how it may align with BPD.

People with these disorders do not necessarily lack empathy, but they don't show it in a meaningful way.  Therapists disagree on how much empathy people with each disorder actually experience, and how much their empathy is blocked out by defense mechanisms.

My ex was a highly empathetic person, but was punished as a child for not being empathetic enough toward others, or not being selfless enough.  My theory on him as an individual is that he blocks out his empathy because it causes him anxiety, and focuses on himself instead.  He believes himself to be an empathetic person while often ignoring the needs of others.  He has many NPD characteristics and I highly doubt that he objectively lacks empathy, but he sure doesn't show much.

[thisworld]

My therapist told me that all Cluster B is narcissistic to varying degrees even though they don't qualify for NPD. This she means both from a psychoanalytical perspective and from the way others are affected whatever the inner mechanism is. From what I see, my ex has BPD with strong narcissistic traits. An expert would probably diagnose him BPD/NPD. I'm familiar with NPD (my mother is on the relatively lower end of the spectrum and I had a relationship with a cerebral narcissist before). My BPD ex was definitely a somatic narcissist obsessed with his body, his looks, unable to tolerate his own body because he had a little belly so he wouldn't take his shirt off during sex (maybe he was also avoiding intimacy). The constant attention seeking from females, hooked by narcissistic supply and obviously seeking it, telling people false success stories, triangulations, everything and everything was there. Looking back I can see how some of them were narcissistic and some were BPD but not in all cases. What brought me here was my question: "What kind of NPD is this? I have never seen such an uncontrolled, emotional NPD who is almost crying for himself all the time." NPD has too grandiose a self (even if they don't boast) to chase attention this way. They do lots to gain it but usually don't message bomb people (not necessarily partners) if they don't get a reply in two minutes (my ex did this because he couldn't tolerate abandonment anxiety). That would damage the charisma I suppose. Overall, they look more collected until the mask slips but even then they are more aggressive than sad. My ex seemed like a NPD that didn't completely happen, too childish for NPD almost. This is how I discovered BPD and have learnt that they are sometimes described as failed narcissists. That matches my feeling to a T. I think the reverse is also true for male borderlines. They use more aggressive coping skills to hide vulnerability due to gender roles and come up as more NPD than they may actually be. However, the effects on us is more or less the same.   

[enlighten me]

In a way we all have narcissistic tendencies. We also do a lot of things pwBPD do. We just don't go to the extremes.

If we look at the DSM for cluster B and write down all the traits and scale them 0-10 then out of the 34 traits we would tick a lot of them if we are honest. If we say 0 is no traits and above is some to extreme then Im sure that there wouldn't be many that 0 can truly be applied to.

For example with NPD.

1.Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).

2.Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

3.Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).

4.Requires excessive admiration.

5.Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.

6.Is inter-personally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.

7.Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

8.Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.

9.Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

With no1 who has never exaggerated something about themselves to make themselves look better?

With no2 who has never fantasised about winning the lottery or finding ideal love?

With no3 who has never not associated wit someone because they feel that in some way they are below them.

With no4 Who doesn't like to be admired?

With no5 who hasn't at some time hasn't expected to do things straight away?

With no6 who has never taken advantage of someone?

With no7 who has never rolled their eyes when listening to someones woes?

With no8 who has never been envious of someone else?

With no9 who has never been arrogant?

I know that its the extremity of the behaviour that makes it a disorder but with the above on a scale of 0-10 who would not at least tick a 1 on all of them?

By realising this I have been able to see what drives a lot of this behaviour from an empathic place. I may not agree with it but in a small way can relate and work out what drove me to do these things.

I disagree with the NPD lacking empathy though. I think it comes across as that but may not be the case. For me empathy is being able to put yourself in someone elses shoes and know how it would hurt you if it happened to you. PwNPD can do this as they care about themselves. PwASPD on the other hand don't really care about themselves so they can truly lack empathy.

[thisworld]

In a way we all have narcissistic tendencies. We also do a lot of things pwBPD do. We just don't go to the extremes.

If we look at the DSM for cluster B and write down all the traits and scale them 0-10 then out of the 34 traits we would tick a lot of them if we are honest. If we say 0 is no traits and above is some to extreme then Im sure that there wouldn't be many that 0 can truly be applied to.

For example with NPD.

1.Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).

2.Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

3.Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).

4.Requires excessive admiration.

5.Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.

6.Is inter-personally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.

7.Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

8.Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.

9.Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

With no1 who has never exaggerated something about themselves to make themselves look better?

With no2 who has never fantasised about winning the lottery or finding ideal love?

With no3 who has never not associated wit someone because they feel that in some way they are below them.

With no4 Who doesn't like to be admired?

With no5 who hasn't at some time hasn't expected to do things straight away?

With no6 who has never taken advantage of someone?

With no7 who has never rolled their eyes when listening to someones woes?

With no8 who has never been envious of someone else?

With no9 who has never been arrogant?

I know that its the extremity of the behaviour that makes it a disorder but with the above on a scale of 0-10 who would not at least tick a 1 on all of them?

By realising this I have been able to see what drives a lot of this behaviour from an empathic place. I may not agree with it but in a small way can relate and work out what drove me to do these things.

I disagree with the NPD lacking empathy though. I think it comes across as that but may not be the case. For me empathy is being able to put yourself in someone elses shoes and know how it would hurt you if it happened to you. PwNPD can do this as they care about themselves. PwASPD on the other hand don't really care about themselves so they can truly lack empathy.

Yes we would tick a lot of them, a healthy ago is narcissistic to a degree. I believe I could also tick a couple from ASPD or another disorder. But I think these lists may be a bit misleading in their own way for us. Things I would do to gain these things on these lists would differ radically from a disordered person trying to achieve these and I believe interpersonal harm is caused at that behaviour level, not at the motivation level. In that sense, empathising with the need doesn't result in empathising with the behaviour for me. If I lived with a non who ticked all of these and then lived with a pwNPD, my experience would so vastly differ that clinical expressions wouldn't mean much (unless I managed to get away safely from emotional abuse and could afford developing some empathy (which shouldn't result in action in relation to the person with NPD). Again, from this effects perspective, there are so many people with ASPD who wouldn't have the emotional sadism or sexually disrespectful behaviours of my BPD ex. So many things overlap in cluster B. When I empathise with him (which isn't difficult because we had emotionally similar childhoods) I feel his pain and maybe my experience has a subconscious share in it but I like to think that I could feel the pain of a psychopath, too, and that doesn't have to result from me positioned in the centre. I mean, I know the feeling of pain and can empathise on that similarity but me having similar needs does not form a ground for empathy, my knowledge of the feeling does. For me, the moment this empathy moves out of the context of my own healing and is sometimes consciously shaped/reformatted for recovery purposes, trouble starts.

As for empathy, I think both NPD and BPD have this in very similar ways. I have mostly experienced this at a verbal level but lacking the warmth, some cold empathy, sometimes they were blatanly faking it (need for social acceptance? manipulation?) and sometimes it was to gain admiration ("what an empathetic person!". I also received empathy only under the condition that it didn't clash with their own inner needs of power or control (which happens once every decade). So, I think both are able to show a bit of empathy if they have nothing to lose emotionally (very difficult). One common point between my NPD mother (lower end of the spectrum) and BPD ex was that this empathy was just momentary. It doesn't register (from what I see) as a coherent feeling with some foundation and it doesn't change the way that person is treated in the future. When I empathise with someone for something, that stays with me and changes the way I treat that person in general. Neither my mother nor my BPD had this. To the contrary, two days later, 2 months later, you may hear a hurtful comment about your situation for which they showed empathy. It's almost like showing your vulnerability to them is a sure way to get attacked on that very thing which is used to bring you down. Incredible.

One thing my BPD ex had but my mother didn't is self-absorbed empathy. He is so self-absorbed with this. If he shows empathy for something, that's definitely a situation that he had to go through. It seems like it has more to do with his own experience of the same situation than the feelings of the other person. I find this self-absorbed in the sense that the smallest recognition for someone else's feelings results in these overly dramatic comments about this pain my ex knows so well. Something outward is almost immediately directed inward. Self-serving empathy, if that's possible. He is a drug addict so Amy Winehouse receives more empathy than people hurting a lot or that he damaged through and through. (And you have to sit down, bury your hurt and listen to this for hours. You even find yourself thinking "How about me?" He is so empathetic that his partner has to ask for something given to Amy Winehouse so freely:))

My ex also uses empathy as a  tool in triangulations. All his exs received tons of "empathy" whereas I received zero. He even managed to empathise with my friends that he knew almost nothing about. In one particular situation where I told my partner that L. was a person with whom I cried a lot because we went through very similar things in the past, I received "Ow, I can't stand her crying."

I've started wondering whether he transferred his anger for his mother to me and that may be a reason for this misplaced empathy.

Recent research shows that some psychopaths can actually experience empathy but they can sort of turn it on and off. Also, emotions affect the frontal cortex, not the amygdala. I wonder how this would be in a BPD or NPD brain.         

 

[blackbirdsong]

I have recently talk to my T about my ex, discussing the difference between NPD and BPD. I pulled out this empathy argument as a difference because I have read that (web source) and she disagreed. She said that empathy is something you can learn.

Also, they wanted to remove NPD from the latest DSM!

The speculation is that there are multiple reasons: NPD traits occur in almost every other disorder. And there is not good enough pattern of true NPD persons covered in research. It is very hard to actually find a person with all these NPD traits to go to therapy. They are perfect, they don't need therapy.

And at the end, most BPD persons contain huge amount of narcissistic elements.

[troisette]

  Thisworld, so much similarity, I wonder if we dated the same guy! 

Have you looked at vulnerable narcissism co morbid with BPD?

So many subsets of narcissism... .

[C.Stein]

In a way we all have narcissistic tendencies. We also do a lot of things pwBPD do. We just don't go to the extremes.

I would agree that we all exhibit characteristics of personality disorders to some degree.  The difference, as you pointed out, is how extreme the behavior is and how pervasive/persistent it is.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I'm posting the DSM-5 definition because I've read that many therapists think it's more accurate:

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-5, include:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifested by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.

b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others' experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:

Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.

b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

I bolded the parts relevant to our conversation here.  I think it is interesting that pwNPD are "excessively attuned to the reactions of others."  I think this shows that pwNPD are not as oblivious to others and their feelings as we think, but really only process other people's feelings when it is relevant to whether or not they will sustain a narcissistic injury.  In my opinion, this shows that they don't really "lack" empathy or the ability to discern the feelings of others, but fail to act on it in an altruistic way. 

I know this is one of those "If a tree falls in the woods . . . " arguments, because it matters little to us whether a pwBPD or NPD has empathy or simply can't functionally act on it.  But my personal take is that a pwNPD was probably overburdened with the feelings of others as a child, probably by an abuser, so s/he neglects the feelings of others as an adult to preserve the tiny shred of self that they have left.

[thisworld]

 Thisworld, so much similarity, I wonder if we dated the same guy! 

Have you looked at vulnerable narcissism co morbid with BPD?

So many subsets of narcissism... .

I have Troisette. My ex goes between grandiose and vulnerable. Apparently, many of them do. As for dating the same person, the high degree of universality is fascinating.

[enlighten me]

I'm posting the DSM-5 definition because I've read that many therapists think it's more accurate:

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-5, include:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifested by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.

b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high in order to see oneself as exceptional, or too low based on a sense of entitlement; often unaware of own motivations.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.

b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others' experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain

covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.

With regards to the bolded part b raises a question. Why do we have relationships? Surely we only have relationships to get something out of it. In a way you could say they all have to do with our own personal gain and fulfilling our selfish needs. If they didn't give us something then we wouldn't have them. Surely the NPD definition is normal behaviour taken to the nth degree.

I also agree with you that you cant be void of empathy if you can identify with the feeling of others.

[thisworld]

I bolded the parts relevant to our conversation here.  I think it is interesting that pwNPD are "excessively attuned to the reactions of others."  I think this shows that pwNPD are not as oblivious to others and their feelings as we think, but really only process other people's feelings when it is relevant to whether or not they will sustain a narcissistic injury.  In my opinion, this shows that they don't really "lack" empathy or the ability to discern the feelings of others, but fail to act on it in an altruistic way.  

Exactly, they have a radar for it, that's how they hit the target so well; otherwise, emotional abuse would not be so easy. My BPD partner had a strong radar, too. However, he was more sensitive in this regard than my NPD mother. She kind of turns this radar on if only she is interested in something; with BPD ex it's almost always on, I think he experiences his need for control or need to sustain his universe with more anxiety. Both are most loving to animals, they are big dog lovers - adoration?  At the same time, they have a narrow emotional palette so sometimes they are clueless as to why someone may be feeling a certain things. They notice things they possess really well - I would say envy and jealousy, my ex builds all his manipulations to generate these feelings anyway, they connect with desire for him. This so didn't work with me and he went kind of crazy. It's like he didn't have much else in his repertoire and was helpless. Volatility increased. He probably also felt that I was a very cold person and didn't love him. I often think, with my boundaries, he may have experienced me the way I would experience someone with NPD or ASPD. As for feelings that don't occupy a big place in their emotional palette, they have no idea (about the reasons for these feelings) but are very adept at hiding this. Ask them directly, and it becomes funny sometimes. They try things like "I know why and you know why", "what do you want me to tell, it's obvious", my ex sometimes acted ashamed to hide the fact that he didn't know, my mother gives the blank NPD look.   

[troisette]

I was married to a narcissist for several years. He did not understand empathy. I tried, several times, to explain to him what empathy is, in differing ways. He could not grasp the concept, it eluded him. He argued that there could be no such thing.

I believe some narcissists are able to "act" empathy. It's not a marker of BPD as it is with narcissism.

The exNPD also loved dogs, although if there was a choice between his pleasure and the dog's well being, his pleasure was paramount. This is also the case with my exBPD, he claims to love his pet but leaves her for months with a neighbour feeding her. In my experience, this treatment of loved pets resonates with their treatment of loved humans. They are there to meet their needs but their treatment shows lack of object constancy.

[thisworld]

I was married to a narcissist for several years. He did not understand empathy. I tried, several times, to explain to him what empathy is, in differing ways. He could not grasp the concept, it eluded him. He argued that there could be no such thing.

I believe some narcissists are able to "act" empathy. It's not a marker of BPD as it is with narcissism.

The exNPD also loved dogs, although if there was a choice between his pleasure and the dog's well being, his pleasure was paramount. This is also the case with my exBPD, he claims to love his pet but leaves her for months with a neighbour feeding her. In my experience, this treatment of loved pets resonates with their treatment of loved humans. They are there to meet their needs but their treatment shows lack of object constancy.

So Troisette, we also seem to have dated the same person before the BPD ex?) I once dated a cerebral narcissist who had his PhD in Stoicism, which ensured I received tremendous amounts of invalidation through stoic philosophy:)) What a suitable field for a narc:)) He, too, would argue like that but I think that's more related with denial or trying to hide the buried fact that even though they understand, they simply don't care. This fact is actually pretty obvious. Neither my mother, nor my NPD ex ever said "If others have it, I would like to experience it or try to develop it, can you help me?" for instance. And we are talking about something that is very meaningful and important for human connection. Some narcissists just intellectualize, the truth beneath may be harder to swallow really. My ex also argued that anxiety could not exist, yet he was anxious in his hidden way I think.

Your comments about animals have been very eye-opening for me. It's so true especially for my ex.   

[klacey3]

They aren't necessarily polar opposites.  You might wish to start by reading the DSM-5 description of narcissism.  I think you will find that it offers more detail on their inner lives than you may have read before.

Also, there is a great article called Narcissistic Personality Disorder:  Rethinking What We Know by Giancarlo Dimaggio published on the website Psychiatric Times.  You have to sign up for a free subscription for the Pychiatric Times to read it, but it's a peer-reviewed source.  I think it will really help you gain a better understanding of narcissism and see how it may align with BPD.

Sometimes my ex displayed empathy. He did things wrong and admitted he would understand if I didnt forgive him for it and admitted he wouldnt like it if I did what he had done. However he lacked empathy in the way that he would completely misread my emotions. When I cried to him a few times he would tell me I am only crying out of guilt for cheating (I wasn't, I was upset because he kept accusing me of it). Another time I had found out a family member had cancer and he continued to verbally abuse me. I told him not to as I was suffering already and to stop making it worse by being horrible. He said that I was out of order for blaming him for my family being so unwell. There were many times where he completely did not understand my emotions and completely interpreted them wrong.

People with these disorders do not necessarily lack empathy, but they don't show it in a meaningful way.  Therapists disagree on how much empathy people with each disorder actually experience, and how much their empathy is blocked out by defense mechanisms.

My ex was a highly empathetic person, but was punished as a child for not being empathetic enough toward others, or not being selfless enough.  My theory on him as an individual is that he blocks out his empathy because it causes him anxiety, and focuses on himself instead.  He believes himself to be an empathetic person while often ignoring the needs of others.  He has many NPD characteristics and I highly doubt that he objectively lacks empathy, but he sure doesn't show much.

I have read the DSM about narcissism and lacking of empathy is on there. I think its more a case of they have the ability to empathise of they really want to but they choose not to because it makes them feel uncomfortable  and they lack insight and reflection of the consequences of their actions.

I am just confused about their feelings for someone else like love, if they are both BPD and npd. Does anyone know?

[thisworld]

I would say, "each man kills the thing he loves."

This love would be needs based, BPD needs + narcissistic supply from a primary narcissistic object I suppose. I think, the BPD aspect of my ex loved me as an "understanding" "angel" (a role that could only be fulfilled by a severely codependent person and that only temporarily), his NPD aspect loved my status as he saw it, intelligence, etc - he had a habit of saying he always "dated down" before me and I was someone whose achievements he boasted with. He also loved the life I built for myself. I think he loved busting my boundaries and bringing me down more than he loved me. He liked the challenge of getting a reaction from me. Other than these, unfortunately I can't see what he loved in me, how he loved me etc. I know from his relationship history that he associates love with intensity (of chaos, mutual cheating, fights repaired by sex afterwards). And he cannot let go of these relationships but paints white people who cheated on him many times, who caused him a lot of pain etc (though he still badmouths them). I haven't seen anything related to love other than these.   

[klacey3]

Oops sorry the third paragraph in the quote box in my last post was actually part of my message. (Empathy example of my ex)

[troisette]

More similarities Thisworld!

Yes, I too was the understanding angel for the BPD, gentle and sympathetic and accommodating. And I was the intelligent, good looking arm candy for narcissistic supply, until I realised that his need for supply was a bottomless pit and he got a buzz from triangulating me with other suppliers.

And yes too, he liked challenging my boundaries and getting a reaction, that seemed to feed his ego.

And again, yes he badmouths people who caused him pain while concomitantly painting them white. No real solid indicators of love, lots of confusing statements about people, superficial friendships, no ballast in relationships.

BPD co-morbid with narcissism or narcissistic traits is a tangled web and we can't unravel it. 

[klacey3]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

[troisette]

  klacey 3 - that's a big question. I don't know whether BPDs or NPDs are capable of love as we know it. That's not to say that they may be capable of love but I've never seen it in a form I recognise as adult, responsible and responsive love.

I include parents, wives, lovers, children, siblings and pets in my answer.

:'(

[GreenEyedMonster]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is probably worthwhile to mention it here again.  For many people with these disorders, they experience very high highs and very low lows.  Not unlike a drug user, the high needs to constantly be higher for them to "feel" anything.  Over time, subtler emotions get lost because they don't compare to the high.  Enduring love (as opposed to falling in love) is one of these.  These individuals end up with a sort of limited emotional range because everything has to compare to this head-over-heels in love feeling, or the satisfaction or revenge, or something like that.  It's the same way that a hardened drug user might find interacting with his child boring compared to chasing the next high.

When it comes to people like narcissists, you have to remember that people's adult personality disorders are almost always compensating for some childhood abuse or neglect.  I believe that my ex falls heavily onto the NPD side of the spectrum, and it is largely because he wasn't allowed to have a "self" as a child.  His overbearing mother dictated to him what he would believe, what he would study in school, which career he would choose, which kind of girl he would marry.  His emotions were invalidated by her.  He was never told by anyone to do what made him happy.  So now as an adult, with his mother deceased, his most precious possession is his Self.  Can you guess how he reacts if he is asked to give up anything for anyone?

If I have needs or emotions that cause him to have to give up that sense of Self that he was lacking for almost the first forty years of his life, those emotions are a threat.  In order to still believe that he is a good and caring person, while still protecting his Self, he simply pretends that my needs and wants don't exist.  It probably happens on a subconscious level, but it registers as a lack of empathy.

[klacey3]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is probably worthwhile to mention it here again.  For many people with these disorders, they experience very high highs and very low lows.  Not unlike a drug user, the high needs to constantly be higher for them to "feel" anything.  Over time, subtler emotions get lost because they don't compare to the high.  Enduring love (as opposed to falling in love) is one of these.  These individuals end up with a sort of limited emotional range because everything has to compare to this head-over-heels in love feeling, or the satisfaction or revenge, or something like that.  It's the same way that a hardened drug user might find interacting with his child boring compared to chasing the next high.

When it comes to people like narcissists, you have to remember that people's adult personality disorders are almost always compensating for some childhood abuse or neglect.  I believe that my ex falls heavily onto the NPD side of the spectrum, and it is largely because he wasn't allowed to have a "self" as a child.  His overbearing mother dictated to him what he would believe, what he would study in school, which career he would choose, which kind of girl he would marry.  His emotions were invalidated by her.  He was never told by anyone to do what made him happy.  So now as an adult, with his mother deceased, his most precious possession is his Self.  Can you guess how he reacts if he is asked to give up anything for anyone?

If I have needs or emotions that cause him to have to give up that sense of Self that he was lacking for almost the first forty years of his life, those emotions are a threat.  In order to still believe that he is a good and caring person, while still protecting his Self, he simply pretends that my needs and wants don't exist.  It probably happens on a subconscious level, but it registers as a lack of empathy.

Thank you greenmoster for the long detailed reply. That has helped to answer my question and give me further knowledge

[Invictus01]

I guess from the theoretical point of view, it is nice to talk about all this. From the practical point of view though... .I am not sure if it matters that much. Say, somebody punches you in the face and then says "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to, it will never happen again!"... .you accept the apology... .then that person punches you in the face again. Or, somebody punches you in the face, then says "Good gawd, it was so easy, he didn't even defend himself, what a loser"... .and punches you in the face again. From the point of view of the person who got punched in the face twice, does it really matter what goes on in the other person's head? Does it really matter that you saw remorse or empathy from the first person if in the end, the outcome is the same? What matters is how the person treats you. You rarely can go wrong if you judge people by their actions because as opposed to words or emotions, actions are much tougher to fake.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I guess from the theoretical point of view, it is nice to talk about all this. From the practical point of view though... .I am not sure if it matters that much. Say, somebody punches you in the face and then says "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to, it will never happen again!"... .you accept the apology... .then that person punches you in the face again. Or, somebody punches you in the face, then says "Good gawd, it was so easy, he didn't even defend himself, what a loser"... .and punches you in the face again. From the point of view of the person who got punched in the face twice, does it really matter what goes on in the other person's head? Does it really matter that you saw remorse or empathy from the first person if in the end, the outcome is the same? What matters is how the person treats you. You rarely can go wrong if you judge people by their actions because as opposed to words or emotions, actions are much tougher to fake.

This is sound logic.

However, some folks here -- and I've been here so this is not criticism -- are having a hard time not feeling like they want to risk being punched in the face again.  Understanding why they are pretty much guaranteed the same outcome is a good weapon against getting stuck in a permanent cycle.

[klacey3]

I guess from the theoretical point of view, it is nice to talk about all this. From the practical point of view though... .I am not sure if it matters that much. Say, somebody punches you in the face and then says "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to, it will never happen again!"... .you accept the apology... .then that person punches you in the face again. Or, somebody punches you in the face, then says "Good gawd, it was so easy, he didn't even defend himself, what a loser"... .and punches you in the face again. From the point of view of the person who got punched in the face twice, does it really matter what goes on in the other person's head? Does it really matter that you saw remorse or empathy from the first person if in the end, the outcome is the same? What matters is how the person treats you. You rarely can go wrong if you judge people by their actions because as opposed to words or emotions, actions are much tougher to fake.

To me the reason behind behaviour and actions does that matter. Eg. If someone punched me because they were in a delusional state I would be less angry and more forgiving than if it was someone that just punched me because they lost their temper.

Understanding the emotions and motive behind my ex, helps me to get closure, I just want to understand and know the truth I guess  instead of making assumptions. I find personality disorders very confusing, and want to understand what happened in the last year. Maybe its not logical to want to know about the capacity for emotions my ex had, but I want to know all the same.

[Invictus01]

I guess from the theoretical point of view, it is nice to talk about all this. From the practical point of view though... .I am not sure if it matters that much. Say, somebody punches you in the face and then says "I am so sorry, I didn't mean to, it will never happen again!"... .you accept the apology... .then that person punches you in the face again. Or, somebody punches you in the face, then says "Good gawd, it was so easy, he didn't even defend himself, what a loser"... .and punches you in the face again. From the point of view of the person who got punched in the face twice, does it really matter what goes on in the other person's head? Does it really matter that you saw remorse or empathy from the first person if in the end, the outcome is the same? What matters is how the person treats you. You rarely can go wrong if you judge people by their actions because as opposed to words or emotions, actions are much tougher to fake.

This is sound logic.

However, some folks here -- and I've been here so this is not criticism -- are having a hard time not feeling like they want to risk being punched in the face again.  Understanding why they are pretty much guaranteed the same outcome is a good weapon against getting stuck in a permanent cycle.

And if you go by how the other person has treated you and walk away after the first time you were punched in the face because you don't want to risk the second time... .does it really matter if there is remorse or no remorse?

I had an interesting experience a couple of years ago when I started talking to this one girlie. We kinda clicked and started talking almost daily but I was away on a work trip, so we couldn't meet up for a date. And then one day, maybe a couple of weeks into us talking to each other, I don't remember what we were talking about, but she just unleashed an absolutely insane stream of insults. It was like somebody flipped the switch, and some bat$hit crazy person appeared out of nowhere. I had never had anybody ever talk to me like this, it was really shocking to me and beyond anything I was willing to put up with. I told her right away that she is a great girl and stuff but I will never tolerate something like that and she needs to find somebody else. She immediately apologized but all I could think of was - ":)oes she really think she can verbally abuse me, then throw out "I'm really sorry" and everything will be alright? And I'll have to worry when the crazy pops up again?" So, I stuck to my guns and she kept on saying - "I don't understand. I said I'm sorry, why can't we just act like it never happened?" Because it did happen and was way over the line and I don't care if you are sorry?

P.S. On a side note more than a year later she emailed me out of the blue and told me - "Remember what I did with you? I did the same thing with another guy. I don't know what's wrong with me, I always do that when I get close to a guy, I run them off before they can do it to me." Eh, I have an idea... .

[klacey3]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is probably worthwhile to mention it here again.  For many people with these disorders, they experience very high highs and very low lows.  Not unlike a drug user, the high needs to constantly be higher for them to "feel" anything.  Over time, subtler emotions get lost because they don't compare to the high.  Enduring love (as opposed to falling in love) is one of these.  These individuals end up with a sort of limited emotional range because everything has to compare to this head-over-heels in love feeling, or the satisfaction or revenge, or something like that.  It's the same way that a hardened drug user might find interacting with his child boring compared to chasing the next high.

When it comes to people like narcissists, you have to remember that people's adult personality disorders are almost always compensating for some childhood abuse or neglect.  I believe that my ex falls heavily onto the NPD side of the spectrum, and it is largely because he wasn't allowed to have a "self" as a child.  His overbearing mother dictated to him what he would believe, what he would study in school, which career he would choose, which kind of girl he would marry.  His emotions were invalidated by her.  He was never told by anyone to do what made him happy.  So now as an adult, with his mother deceased, his most precious possession is his Self.  Can you guess how he reacts if he is asked to give up anything for anyone?

If I have needs or emotions that cause him to have to give up that sense of Self that he was lacking for almost the first forty years of his life, those emotions are a threat.  In order to still believe that he is a good and caring person, while still protecting his Self, he simply pretends that my needs and wants don't exist.  It probably happens on a subconscious level, but it registers as a lack of empathy.

Does that mean they feel shallow feelings towards us? Or less available emotions?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is probably worthwhile to mention it here again.  For many people with these disorders, they experience very high highs and very low lows.  Not unlike a drug user, the high needs to constantly be higher for them to "feel" anything.  Over time, subtler emotions get lost because they don't compare to the high.  Enduring love (as opposed to falling in love) is one of these.  These individuals end up with a sort of limited emotional range because everything has to compare to this head-over-heels in love feeling, or the satisfaction or revenge, or something like that.  It's the same way that a hardened drug user might find interacting with his child boring compared to chasing the next high.

When it comes to people like narcissists, you have to remember that people's adult personality disorders are almost always compensating for some childhood abuse or neglect.  I believe that my ex falls heavily onto the NPD side of the spectrum, and it is largely because he wasn't allowed to have a "self" as a child.  His overbearing mother dictated to him what he would believe, what he would study in school, which career he would choose, which kind of girl he would marry.  His emotions were invalidated by her.  He was never told by anyone to do what made him happy.  So now as an adult, with his mother deceased, his most precious possession is his Self.  Can you guess how he reacts if he is asked to give up anything for anyone?

If I have needs or emotions that cause him to have to give up that sense of Self that he was lacking for almost the first forty years of his life, those emotions are a threat.  In order to still believe that he is a good and caring person, while still protecting his Self, he simply pretends that my needs and wants don't exist.  It probably happens on a subconscious level, but it registers as a lack of empathy.

Does that mean they feel shallow feelings towards us? Or less available emotions?

It matters little if there is remorse . . . if your priority is taking care of yourself.  Unfortunately, many people on this board are struggling to get to that place.

I can't say for sure, really, but I think that pwNPD and BPD are unable to feel the more enduring emotions in life because they are desensitized.  They are subtle and don't rise and fall.  Emotions like abandonment anxiety are much stronger for them than the sense of reassurance that comes from a stable relationship, so it is more "real" to them.  See thisworld's post on "The Addiction Metaphor" for a further discussion of why people act the way they do when some kind of high is at stake.

My take on Cluster B is that the spectrum/continuum of the disorder has to do with how much one consciously uses other people to "get high."  On one hand, you have pwBPD, who do it mostly involuntarily.  Then NPD, where it is voluntarily but denied from consciousness.  Then AsPD, where it's open season on everyone else.

[klacey3]

Is someone with NPD comorbid with BPD capable of love or does this combination of illnesses only allow the person to feel shallow romantic feelings?

I mentioned this on another thread, but it is probably worthwhile to mention it here again.  For many people with these disorders, they experience very high highs and very low lows.  Not unlike a drug user, the high needs to constantly be higher for them to "feel" anything.  Over time, subtler emotions get lost because they don't compare to the high.  Enduring love (as opposed to falling in love) is one of these.  These individuals end up with a sort of limited emotional range because everything has to compare to this head-over-heels in love feeling, or the satisfaction or revenge, or something like that.  It's the same way that a hardened drug user might find interacting with his child boring compared to chasing the next high.

When it comes to people like narcissists, you have to remember that people's adult personality disorders are almost always compensating for some childhood abuse or neglect.  I believe that my ex falls heavily onto the NPD side of the spectrum, and it is largely because he wasn't allowed to have a "self" as a child.  His overbearing mother dictated to him what he would believe, what he would study in school, which career he would choose, which kind of girl he would marry.  His emotions were invalidated by her.  He was never told by anyone to do what made him happy.  So now as an adult, with his mother deceased, his most precious possession is his Self.  Can you guess how he reacts if he is asked to give up anything for anyone?

If I have needs or emotions that cause him to have to give up that sense of Self that he was lacking for almost the first forty years of his life, those emotions are a threat.  In order to still believe that he is a good and caring person, while still protecting his Self, he simply pretends that my needs and wants don't exist.  It probably happens on a subconscious level, but it registers as a lack of empathy.

Does that mean they feel shallow feelings towards us? Or less available emotions?

It matters little if there is remorse . . . if your priority is taking care of yourself.  Unfortunately, many people on this board are struggling to get to that place.

I can't say for sure, really, but I think that pwNPD and BPD are unable to feel the more enduring emotions in life because they are desensitized.  They are subtle and don't rise and fall.  Emotions like abandonment anxiety are much stronger for them than the sense of reassurance that comes from a stable relationship, so it is more "real" to them.  See thisworld's post on "The Addiction Metaphor" for a further discussion of why people act the way they do when some kind of high is at stake.

My take on Cluster B is that the spectrum/continuum of the disorder has to do with how much one consciously uses other people to "get high."  On one hand, you have pwBPD, who do it mostly involuntarily.  Then NPD, where it is voluntarily but denied from consciousness.  Then AsPD, where it's open season on everyone else.

I may not want to be with my BPD ex but to me that doesn't mean its not important to want to know everything I can about the disorder.

I am a bit confused about what you mean regarding they feel subtle romantic feelings because of using people for a high

[thisworld]

For instance,

My ex is an addict, his addiction has activated certain parts of his brain (some of his receptors) which normally nicely sleep during our lifetime. If we had brain scans, those areas would look red and awake on his scan, green and asleep on mine. This is because he has been feeding himself heroin and that gives you a surreal flow of endorphins, like buckets of it, the happiness hormone. Gives you pleasure, soothes pain. This is a kind of pleasure we cannot experience without an extra substance - heroin. All your cells tremble with pleasure. Craving is when receptors want this feed, new buckets of endorphin. But anyway, the guy's standard of happy has changed now. Your very happy is nothing to him. It's dull dull dull. And correctly, because he has truly experienced a very different kind of happy - at a price of course. So he is desensitized to your happy. He doesn't recognize that as happiness. Not only that, because he has been doing this for a long time, lower doses do not satisfy him anymore. He has to increase his dose. Very similar to his attention seeking. My attention, my 24/7 attention is not enough or satisfactory, he has to get more - he has an online harem that he skillfully manipulates (he admitted to this by accident one day:)) But yes, we now have different standards of happiness. I love popcorn and a film. This is a nice, modest happiness. This doesn't give him happiness in his standards. The body says, screw popcorn, we want the endorphin happy. Similarly, because he thinks that initial high, the crazy infatuation he experiences in the beginning of relationships is the standard, a stable, nice happiness doesn't feel like happiness to him. It probably feels like death, I don't know. He starts craving that strength of attention. I think that's why he creates so much drama, so much chaos. My low grade NPD mother is like that, too. Too much peace and calm creates a disturbance in her. She starts seeking an argument. The BPD ex is more extreme though.