recording conversations

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Anyone here have advice about recording conversations? Did you record things between you and your ex pwBPD?

So often, my ex BPDw (whom I still live with) uses the "that's not what I said" tactic, or even more often she hears me all wrong. During quite a few heated moments of conflict over the years, one or the other of us have wished there'd been a recording. For a time, I had an unexpressed wish for closed circuit cameras in the house, some kind of proof of what I knew was said or done. Of course, when I took out my dictaphone after HER suggestion of a recording the other day, she flipped out and her rage came on stronger. "I see what you're doing/I see what kind of person you are" was the angle. I don't really understand how something as objective as a dictaphone can be so offensive... .

To me, it makes sense. It's solid, objective proof of what was really said. It's even a way to protect from outlashings, I figure. She'd probably control herself a little better.

[emergent]

Anyone here have advice about recording conversations? Did you record things between you and your ex pwBPD?

So often, my ex BPDw (whom I still live with) uses the "that's not what I said" tactic, or even more often she hears me all wrong. During quite a few heated moments of conflict over the years, one or the other of us have wished there'd been a recording. For a time, I had an unexpressed wish for closed circuit cameras in the house, some kind of proof of what I knew was said or done. Of course, when I took out my dictaphone after HER suggestion of a recording the other day, she flipped out and her rage came on stronger. "I see what you're doing/I see what kind of person you are" was the angle. I don't really understand how something as objective as a dictaphone can be so offensive... .

To me, it makes sense. It's solid, objective proof of what was really said. It's even a way to protect from outlashings, I figure. She'd probably control herself a little better.

[GreenEyedMonster]

It's funny, because I was just thinking about this in bed this morning.  I am reaching a point where I almost HAVE TO see my BPDex -- not a thought I relish -- but I considered recording any interactions in audio on my phone.

I'm in the process of getting a friend to get an agreement to see me in writing from him, because he will later claim that it was "unwanted contact"!

[Sunfl0wer]

For my ex, feelings = facts.  Facts did not equal facts.

We could be arguing over info exchanged in an email.  Once I pulled up the email and highlighted my "proof" he stonewalled the conversation, or said that it was out of context or some other reason to not believe "proof."

When he was left with nothing to argue, well, ... .he just became delusional.  I could never guess that after 5 yrs of knowing this 'very sane' man that he needed his feelings to be facts so much that he could become delusional to support his feelings.

He began actively seeking out "proof" for his feelings.  He ignored obvious info that did not support his premise and didn't consider it, treated it non existent.  He invented stuff that simply was not true.

Edit:  I do not think a tape recorded conv would have helped more than one single conversation, if that.

[GoingBack2OC]

You need to check regarding whether or not it's legal to do so or not in your state. Where I live, it is. It's considered a one party party; that is one party must know and consent. So if you record a phone call with your partner (one party - you) knows it's happening. Thus legal.

Some states are two party states. Which means all parties must consent.

Either way; it's illegal to record other peoples conversations (no party on the conversation knows); basically wire tapping.

It's about 50/50 in terms of the state laws. If you google it it would come up.

To note; I played back a conversation I had with my exGF once, let me tell you she was not happy. Im sure she was incredibly embarrassed, because the whole time I was responding very politely, and she was; well literally; acting like a lunatic (which she is). Im talking screaming, not yelling, screaming, cursing, crying, horrific name calling, then suddenly, a total shift, like deadpan - serious, monotone, scary as hell. I needed her to hear it. Because she "never remembered acting like that".

When I did play it for her; that's when our relationship was basically over. That and I called her out on being a liar (with proof). In many ways I think she simply realized "damn game is up he won't be fooled any longer".  Because after that, we were over in a heartbeat.

[flourdust]

I have some recordings. At one point, our MC asked us to record a fight so he could hear what it was really like. I recorded a typical argument -- not the worst, not the best.

The MC listened to it with me and said it sounded like I was a hostile witness on the stand, with the prosecutor trying to break me.

The MC listened to it again with my wife and said that she heard nothing wrong at all with her conduct.

[thisworld]

Emergent,

People with disorders (including simpler things like passive aggressive personalities) use this "tactic" for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they do this consciously, knowing the truth, to deflect the real issue because a lengthy discussion about what actually happened entails. Sometimes, it comes out of their minds automatically and then they can't handle the facts. They may rage, dysregulate, go delusional or simply disappear. Their ego cannot handle this. Sometimes they truly perceive things in a different way, they really are telling truth. Sometimes their mind just goes blank when faced with it, they have no idea why they are doing what they are doing but it's a very bad feeling. These are people who are using everything they have to control and sustain a universe that doesn't exactly exist as they think it should. Everything they do is to sustain it forcefully so that they can survive. Having to face truth this way is a direct and very aggressive threat to their system. It is painful, like a matter of life and death. Hence the reactions. Very rarely, they may take responsibility and throw themselves in a hospital. Why exactly would you like to shake their universe? To cause a big impact on this system so that they may seek medical help or to prove that things occurred as you experienced them?

I would say, if you think it's your moral duty to show this to them with proof, ("you don't remember what you are saying" it can be done once I guess. But this would probably be detrimental to any sort of  relationship between you two. She may resent you strongly for this even though she doesn't admit this. And she must have received enough feedback about her unhealthy behaviours, and inside, this proof may not change much. Inside, usually, they already sense that something is off. Everything they do is somehow to deal with that anyway. They are not as confidently oblivious as they may show us to be. If your goal is to make them seek therapy, I suppose you can just tell them that they have lost connection with actuality. That's good enough feedback. Not everyone hears it every day. The rest is up to her. She may believe that you are actually abusing her, or she can question this with a professional. You have no control on this. This isn't very different from actual proof because they can rationalize extremely anyway. You may end up feeling crazy yourself.

If you need this "proof" to prove to her that reality is as you remember it to be, if you are having to rely on objective proof on your side to discuss reality with a mentally disordered person, it may be that you may have an emotional need here. What is it? Why do you need to prove the truth to her?  Is she shaking your grounding? This happens in emotionally abusive relationships. The truth is truth, you know what it is, you don't have to prove anything to someone who misses truth so that truth is established. Do you need to be right in her eyes and why? Truth is already established - if there are more ambivalent things in these communications that allow for different perspectives, the solution starts with accepting the possibility of different versions and discussing them, not by proving the facts. If I told you that we are in year 2020 and insisted on it, you wouldn't need to prove it to me. Obviously, there is something wrong with me. And you know what year we are in. What prevents you from taking this approach with your ex? Is there some emotional power you have handed over to her?

[LostInMemories]

Bad idea: People with BPD can't see what they are doing. THey live in their own 'truth'. Their feelings is the truth and no matter with what evidence you come, they don't care, it'll only make them mad. The only way to stop an arguments is to say: yes of course, you're right, I'm sorry. Which obviously isn't always a good thing to do, but this honestly is the only way, trust me. I tried everything, but on the end of the day it always came down on ME apologising even though I was right and did nothing wrong. It sucks... .

Stay strong, peace

[emergent]

I am not in the States and don't intend to record anything on the sly. It would be fully known.

thisworld, what you say makes a lot of sense. It's probably all the reasons I never knew I had for *not* getting cameras installed and *never* recording conversations in 15 years of BPD hell. Somehow I knew she'd be deeply hurt by reality.

I am stuck somewhere between caretaking and emancipation right now, so these things are hard to know how to handle.

[emergent]

Here's why I'm stuck, if anyone's interested.

I carried our two children in my womb, but the children are rightly both of ours, as we were married (when we lived in a country where it was legal in 2005) and made the decision together. Well, actually, I'd wanted kids since I was 13, her not at all, but she agreed to it and we went through the whole process together. She has come to love the kids to the best of her abilities, and they love her, too.

We've since moved to a country where progress is much slower. Gay marriage was recently legalized, but the kids have to be adopted by the non-biological parent, through the same very long process as any other adoption. The process involves a home study, to make sure the home is a stable place for kids to grow up. The home study involves interviews with family, friends, neighbours, teachers, school principals, and all of this happens unannounced. The police just show up at the door, or at school. They can and do question the kids, and even though it's illegal, friends of ours have had to leave their kids alone with the police for questioning. What are you gonna do? Basically, the kids have to have all the right answers to make it look like the home and the relationship between their parents is stable. Same goes for neighbours, friends, teachers.

I have tried to insist on going the honest route, as there is a definite legal precedent for that. I'm talking about building a case for adoption based on the truth, which is that we all want exBPDw to have some degree of custody after the imminent separation. But of course, exBPDw does not want to go the truthful route. She doesn't want me to leave, and this is one way of hanging on to me longer - it's an average of 9 months, and we just got the last of the papers in a few weeks ago. Nine months I/we could still be in this nightmare. She is also terrified of the adoption being refused, and is trying to put all the chances on her side.

I guess what I mean when I say I'm stuck somewhere between caretaking and emancipation is that I still want her to be happy, but I have started thinking of me, too. I don't feel a need to "prove that things occurred as I experienced them," thisworld, and I wouldn't "like to shake her universe." I well and truly love her in my own definition of love: I wish her nothing but the best, nothing but the highest happiness. But I'm close to getting free of the emotional burden I've been carrying for 15 years that is not comprised of my own emotions. I'm close to breathing and thinking and living clearly and without imposed confusion. I want clarity like there's no tomorrow.

[.cup.car]

Recording audio is sketchy. As others have pointed out, it's not always legal. Don't bother even trying. Not worth the hassle.

Taking screenshots of Facebook messages, however, is 100% fair game.

Be warned that it's going to send the person of interest into a rage regardless.

[thisworld]

Emergent,

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. You are obviously in a difficult situation and nine months is not a short time. I would think your own strength, health and peace of mind are more important than anything between the two of you right now. You have a clear exit date, the children need one parent to be as calm and healthy as possible and her perception of truth or rejection of it would not change much of these during this particular time - as it may come with a big price. I personally would try to spend this time as calmly as possible, using S.E.T and other tools (radical acceptance?) to reduce tension or detach emotionally- if there is some. Maybe improving the relationship board would help as well, members there have a lot of experience letting go, too - if you wish to choose that route for nine months.  

Best,

[emergent]

It's not really my choice. If I could choose the honest route and move out tomorrow, I would.

I am a very calm person, and since I made the decision to leave, I've felt peaceful... .with the paradoxical result that I am finally able to really exercise all the complicated tools I've learned in the nonviolent methods I've studied and trained in (like SET). But when I do anything that she perceives as trying to improve how we communicate, she flies into rages that centre on "What's the point/What are you trying to achieve/What gives you the right to be my friend?" I have learned not to be too kind.  :'( these are actual tears.  :'(

[thisworld]

Emergent 

I have had a very short relationship with a man with BPD but I know what you are saying. He has strong narcissistic traits, so when I responded thoughtfully to a sensitivity he had, he made a point of doing that hurtful thing to me. Be a bit too kind to this vulnerable person and you have the most arrogant person in the world with narcissistic effects. It's very painful to experience this, to have to be less kind than you are, you wish to be. One can only detach lovingly. This is one of the things that pains me most about him. You are a very strong person for doing this. My heart and thoughts are with you. I think I'll cry, too. Then I'll say the serenity prayer.

Stay safe

 

[GoingBack2OC]

I'll just say this:

So the recordings I made are through my online business VOIP service. I elected this service about 2 years ago- having nothing to do with my relationship. They record conversations automatically; in and outbound, and send a text (poor quality computer transcribed not human); via email. Its handy for reference/business. They only record legal calls (state to state) where it's allowed.

Now, after things took a turn for the worst; I went back to these recordings; and voicemails she had left me, and I played one of our phone calls back to her.

It was basically a conversation where I called her up; and well, she went bezerk. Like really crazy. Said she was in a public building, screaming, mad, screaming, crying, then hung up. I was a bit in shock, I called back. She answered and "impersonated a very calm man, low voice, an employee of the establishment she was at".  This "man" / her - said she was having a breakdown. I expressed concern. I asked if she needed medical attention. She (he) then went on to explain I was harrassing her and he was going to contact the police. I then just sighed and said her name. Suddenly; she goes crazy screaming again.

Ok - so that was the call I played back.

Now as far as her reception. First; she didnt remember acting that way. When I played it back, I think we got about 40 seconds in, and she literally just hung up. Then ignored me for days.

After that, she was extremely paranoid. I would say that is something you should consider. How your partner would react after finding out you had recordings, should you choose to do so with them not knowing. Because even though I explained I had had this service for years, it had nothing to do with her, (the truth); she literally became crazy paranoid that I was recording every moment of our lives. It got to the point where in the end she would bring it up on every call, only text, and say things like I will only talk in person, a public place, and I need to make sure you're not wearing a wire. Like that paranoid.

I guess I hadnt thought it through in terms of her reaction. This service is automatic. It's great for business, referencing if I missed a detail with a client. Etc. But I suppose going back to it to pull up recordings was the wrong move. I hadnt recorded it deliberatly. I only went back to it after she flat out denied the "incident" ever happened. She literally flat out said "I never did that". So thats when I went online to see if the recording was there. It was, and I played it back later that same day when we spoke.

So I guess; think it through in terms of how it will be received by your partner. Perhaps agreeing; if you both want to fix this relationship; is to both agree to some sort of recording device, a webcam, etc, or audio recording, that's in a common area; and is always on, that you both have access too.

The downside, of course is that people behave and act differently when they know they are being monitored. So you may not get the "side of them" that you are trying to show in replay.

I feel for you. Its a tough situation. But I think recording (even in my case not intentionally as far as "me and her" backfired. She went ballistic when I told her it was a business service I had had for a while.

In all truth, I hadnt played back any of our conversations up until that point. I access the recordings very very rarely; more often I would review an email transcript with a client for details and keywords to compare to my notes.

Hope this works out for you.

[emergent]

Thank you all for your transformative perspectives. I'm so glad I asked this question and got all these thoughtful responses.

Yesterday, it made sense to me to record things, even though I'd never done it before. I must have had good, subconscious reason. It's much clearer now to me why recording is not a good idea. At least not for me. I can see how it could work for others, but it's not in line with what I am trying to achieve.

Salutations to you lot and all your wisdom, and many thanks.