I think I could've handled this better...

[Lonely_Astro]

I made it 2 weeks before I had LC with J.  I was at a coffee shop I go to every morning and she came in.  Being an adult, I chatted with her.  We both sort of sat for a minute and I said (joking) "This is kind of awkward, isn't it?" and she said "yeah, little bit." and looked at her phone.  She bolted up in a panic, which gave me a funny look on my face like "what's wrong with you?"  She looked around frantically and said "is he here?"  The rest of the exchange goes like this:

Me: Who?

J: R.  Is he here?

Me: (for those that don't know, R was who she was dating while we were in limbo at the very end so he's a fresh wound to me - so I see it like we were working on our r/s, she was out dating) "No.  Why would you ask me that?"

J: "He text me and told me he was coming to get coffee."

Me: blank stare on my face

J: "It's not like that.  We aren't together.  He's weird.  I mean fu*king weird.  The only weird person I want in my life is you and you know that, so stop giving me that look."

I just stared at her and didn't say a thing.  Shortly thereafter her coffee was up and I saw R walking up.  She grabbed her coffee and fled out the door to catch him on the sidewalk.  As I waited for my coffee, I watched them talk and read body language.  She was smiling and flirting with him, he was doing the same back.  She walked off.  R walked in and I didn't say anything to him.  I just felt it wasn't my place to walk up and tell him what a whirlwind he's getting himself into. 

Not 2 minutes later, I got a text from her saying she was sorry for making it awkward.  I didn't reply.  I was just to hurt from the exchange I had just saw that I couldn't.  After I got to my office, she came in and was apologizing profusely.  I simply said to her that I wasn't ready to see what I had just witnessed and that I wished for her to leave my office because I had work to do.  I didn't speak to her the rest of the day.  I just couldn't talk to her.  All the feelings of betrayal, lies, etc. all came back to me.

The next day, I reached out to her by sending her a text that just said "hey".  She replied with "yes."  I told her that I was simply trying to open a line of communication with her (this stems from a previous conversation we had had about our ending 4 years ago where neither of us would reach out to the other) and I wasn't trying to repeat my past rigidness.  I told her that if she didn't wish for me to do so to please let me know.  She immediately replied with a super nice text that she "didn't know.  well hey! I hope you have a great day!"  There were a couple of pleasantries text back and forth.  But, during one of those, I asked "how are you?"  Bad choice of words, right?  I didn't mean it badly, thats just how I talk.  Anyway, she said "I'm ok.  You?"  I said something to the effect of "I've had a lot on my mind" to which she replied "About?  Or do you choose not to disclose that information to me?"

Here's where I think I could've handled it better, but I replied with the truth: I had been thinking about the past year and our r/s.  Her reply was "I'm sorry".  I followed that with some things that had been on my mind for the past couple of weeks that I didn't ask before we stopped 'talking'.  She followed that up with "Umm I'm sorry.  I don't know what to tell you or say?".  I followed that up with "just say whatever you feel like saying."  No reply.  That was a few days ago.  I haven't reached out to her and she hasn't to me.

What should I have done differently?  Should I have stayed more superficial and lied about how I was?  Should I have 'chose not to disclose that information' (kind of formal sounding, wasn't it?)?  Should I have shut down the conversation with that line of questioning? 

I'll probably see her at work tomorrow.  I am not trying to rekindle a r/s with her, romantically anyway.  I had hoped that we could (in time, of course) be friends.  I want to minimize the damage to both of us, I'm just not sure how to do that exactly.  NC, while not rigid, is almost impossible because of work.  LC apparently isn't going to work, either.  From the best I can tell, she has a replacement (secret).  I still feel the reason why she fled at the sight of R wasn't for my protection (like she made it out) but for her own (R's soon to be ex wife had an affair with two of my co-workers (dual r/s with two different guys), so I feel sure she didn't want R to see her talking to me and risk having him abandon her or at the very least grill her about being around me).  Oh, as far as I know, R doesnt know J and I were an item.  In fact, J told me she told R on their date that she had "made some mistakes at work" (which obviously, I was a mistake since she didn't feel the need to stand me out from her "mistakes" to R).  But, that's a topic for a different post all together... .

[Invictus01]

Dude, forget about the whole friend thing. If you think for a second that she might have some sort of a PD, just walk away. Relationships, friends, doesn't matter too much. She will split you whatever color of the rainbow she feels like for whatever reason and you will wonder over and over whatever happened. If you keep in touch, a very distant maybe kinda sorta acquaintance, that's what wanna shoot for.

[SybilVane]

Wow,I have no idea how its difficult to deal with all the grieving if its not possible to simply avoid th ex... .

The point is: she still has power on you. And she realizes it. And she will use it everytime she needs validation. And since she is a BPD, she will always need it. Until... .

Until the moment you show her shes not 'that special'. Its not a question of perception, its a question of being sure, or she will try to incense you with this little games, maybe even torture you making you realize how she's satisfied about her new affair (or how she's confused, just to give you some hope, making little games to put you in a kind of 'friendzone'

Don't feed it. Don't give her attention. Don't validate her anymore. I know its hard, it can sound cruel, but keeping messaging her in contexts out-of-strictly-necessary is a really bad idea. She's already near enough and she'll play with it, maybe testing you regarding the way you feel about her replacement.

Avoid personal talks, try to keep it only - only - at work and around the work. Don't let conversations spread to personal issues. Don't talk about the past, what it could have been, r about the memories. I know its not so easy, but keep yourself strong.

We are here for you!

[Lonely_Astro]

Dude, forget about the whole friend thing. If you think for a second that she might have some sort of a PD, just walk away. Relationships, friends, doesn't matter too much. She will split you whatever color of the rainbow she feels like for whatever reason and you will wonder over and over whatever happened. If you keep in touch, a very distant maybe kinda sorta acquaintance, that's what wanna shoot for.

I forgot many on here don't know my story all to well.  My ex (J) is diagnosed, medicated, and (maybe, but I doubt it) going through DBT (as of late Sept).  Last she told me she was, but like I said, I don't think she's still going.  She certainly isn't putting in the work from what I can tell (she chose to go get her nails done instead of going to her session, for example).

My discard happened the first part of October.  I was in limbo up until mid-December, when I found out she had been seeing someone.  She played it off, at first, but I told her I had to go.  We 'talked' up until the end of December.  I did this to try to ease my leaving (I was trying to ease out, if that makes sense).  On late in the day on Jan 1st, she sent me a HNY text, I said it back (nothing personal).  I made it two weeks NC until the coffee shop.

Wow,I have no idea how its difficult to deal with all the grieving if its not possible to simply avoid th ex... .

The point is: she still has power on you. And she realizes it. And she will use it everytime she needs validation. And since she is a BPD, she will always need it. Until... .

Until the moment you show her shes not 'that special'. Its not a question of perception, its a question of being sure, or she will try to incense you with this little games, maybe even torture you making you realize how she's satisfied about her new affair (or how she's confused, just to give you some hope, making little games to put you in a kind of 'friendzone'

Don't feed it. Don't give her attention. Don't validate her anymore. I know its hard, it can sound cruel, but keeping messaging her in contexts out-of-strictly-necessary is a really bad idea. She's already near enough and she'll play with it, maybe testing you regarding the way you feel about her replacement.

Avoid personal talks, try to keep it only - only - at work and around the work. Don't let conversations spread to personal issues. Don't talk about the past, what it could have been, r about the memories. I know its not so easy, but keep yourself strong.

We are here for you!

Working with her and going through this isn't easy.  As I had said to someone else, it's easy to get lost in the vacuum of seeing her just at work (and how she is there).  All that happened last week.  Unfortunately while on my way to work, I was detoured due to an accident and that detour led right by her parents house (where she is living).  This was super early in the AM and she didn't have to work today.  As horrible as it was, I looked to see if she was home.  She wasn't.  So, I've been having a rough time in my head today because of it.  I think that's why I'm here today.  I'm just in my head about it all.  Some other stuff has come to light about her as well (which hit me last week, too).

One thing is for sure: the r/s was real to me and I'm sure real to her, but we were experiencing it two different ways.

[Anez]

Not seeing her car this morning had to be really hard and it's prob why you're in your head so much about this.

Your morning - and a Monday morning, to boot - started off with something terrible. I've had days like this where something happened early on and it stained the whole day. It's brutal. It literally starts awful thoughts that last all day.

I wouldn't overthink how you could or couldn't handle the conversation after the coffee incident. You handled the way you should handle it. She's the sick one. You're the healthy one. You act like an adult, she doesn't.

Don't beat yourself up, Astro. You're a good man. Shake off this crap day and come back strong tomorrow.

[Lonely_Astro]

Not seeing her car this morning had to be really hard and it's prob why you're in your head so much about this.

Your morning - and a Monday morning, to boot - started off with something terrible. I've had days like this where something happened early on and it stained the whole day. It's brutal. It literally starts awful thoughts that last all day.

I wouldn't overthink how you could or couldn't handle the conversation after the coffee incident. You handled the way you should handle it. She's the sick one. You're the healthy one. You act like an adult, she doesn't.

Don't beat yourself up, Astro. You're a good man. Shake off this crap day and come back strong tomorrow.

Thanks, Anez.  It's just been here recently for me.  Maybe I'm swinging from anger back to sadness with her.  You know, the classic "could've, would've, should've" and "if only" thoughts.  Logically, I know that J isn't the same J I got to know over the past year so intimately.  Sure, parts were her, but there was just so freaking much I didn't know about her. 

Ultimately, I don't think it's the end of the r/s that's got me in my head.  I think it's how I was so blind, even though I knew she was BPD going in.  I just thought I'd be better at the r/s with her because I had knowledge.  It turns out, it didn't matter.  I was still the bad guy in the end and she's moved on to someone 'new'.

Today's going to be tough, I can feel it.

[once removed]

hey lonely_astro 

try to be fair to yourself. frankly as critical as i can be here, would be to suggest you were expecting answers or clarity from someone who has suggested they cant give them to you. thats actually not really very evident. you had an honest exchange, spoke from the heart, and didnt beat her over the head with it.

did i miss something  ? why do you think you handled this badly? what do you think you could have done better?

[Lonely_Astro]

hey lonely_astro 

try to be fair to yourself. frankly as critical as i can be here, would be to suggest you were expecting answers or clarity from someone who has suggested they cant give them to you. thats actually not really very evident. you had an honest exchange, spoke from the heart, and didnt beat her over the head with it.

did i miss something  ? why do you think you handled this badly? what do you think you could have done better?

Thanks, once.  I feel like I could've handled better by not have interacted with her as personal as I did.  I could've superficially said I was fine or something rather than being open and honest with how I felt.  I feel like I served to show she still had power over me because I feel our exchange told her that I was missing her and that obviously triggered her since she went ST.

I realize the feelings and thoughts I'm having are normal.  I'm grieving and seeing her doppelgänger every work day doesn't make it easier.  Plus, the detour didn't help on top of what I found out Friday night (partially through happenstance and I probed). 

I have seen her twice at work today.  The first time was when she arrived at work. She gave me a "f you" look, or at least that's how I took it.  She walked passed my door a few minutes ago and she looked in, smiled at me with that little smile of hers, and kept walking. She was with someone and didn't speak to me nor I to her.  We haven't verbally spoken today.  I see little reason to reach out to her, she's the one that went ST Friday and I feel like trying to have any contact with her is futile (I mean, even if I don't want it to hurt, it ends that way).

Overall, I think I'm in DNR mode (I certainly wouldn't get romantically involved with her again, but I do miss talking to her) but I'm also trying to strike a balance while I grieve.  If that makes sense. 

[once removed]

I feel like I could've handled better by not have interacted with her as personal as I did.  I could've superficially said I was fine or something rather than being open and honest with how I felt.  I feel like I served to show she still had power over me because I feel our exchange told her that I was missing her and that obviously triggered her since she went ST.

its a fair point, but not one to beat yourself up for. you were vulnerable. whether thats a mistake, in this case, is for you to decide. depends on your goals, your expectations, and your motives. vulnerability is a double edged sword. the ability to be vulnerable in relationships (of all kinds) is a strength. projecting vulnerability to the general public can be fraught with peril, even dangerous. a good counter balance with the ability to be vulnerable is the ability to maintain good boundaries.

what were your expectations, if any?

i have, plenty of times, felt i was vulnerable when i shouldnt have been. it happens. that is a feeling worth listening to. when something feels off, it may be that we werent being true to ourselves, and/or acting out of anxiety or neediness. does any of that apply to you?

i would try to let go of your perception of her perception of who has what power. its not a game or a contest. and quite frankly, who cares what she thinks in that regard? nothing really stops her from believing she has the power in literally any scenario i can think of. her thoughts are the only thing you dont have power over.

you are likely both in different places when it comes to grieving. that is not a judgment or a division of power, just a fact. taking your power can look something like owning and respecting your own grief, as opposed to comparing it to hers. it probably looks less like trying to show her youre over her. youre entitled to miss her. its normal to miss her. thats not weakness. thats vulnerability as a strength 

and if its any consolation, i have to imagine if i were in your place, having to work with her and see her daily, id be reacting and feeling very similarly, lonely_astro.

[Lonely_Astro]

Thanks, once.  It isn't easy seeing her and knowing that it's been less than 2 weeks since we distanced ourselves (and less than a month since we "officially" ended), yet I know she's moved on with someone.  Yes, it's rumination on my part right now.

When I told her how I felt, I guess I expected her to be a normal adult and offer some sort of comfort.  I mean, empathy.  During a moment of clarity with her awhile back I had asked her if she had empathy or not and she told me she feels (perhaps to much) for other people.  I'm still not sure she understands empathy, but in that moment, I expected a recepication of feelings whether good or bad.  Instead, I got ST.  I wasn't looking for her to profess love for me or anything.  I was just expecting some sort of feedback.  It didn't come and I feel like I messed up by asking for that.

I don't have a particular expectation with her.  Right now, I'm still raw.  Merely looking at her is painful because of the knowledge I have.  It's not like I can talk to her about it, all it would do would result in more ST.  I often forget that J is incapable of such things due to her HF nature.  I want to talk to her, but I know I can't.

[Confused?]

Thanks, once.  It isn't easy seeing her and knowing that it's been less than 2 weeks since we distanced ourselves (and less than a month since we "officially" ended), yet I know she's moved on with someone.  Yes, it's rumination on my part right now.

When I told her how I felt, I guess I expected her to be a normal adult and offer some sort of comfort.  I mean, empathy.  During a moment of clarity with her awhile back I had asked her if she had empathy or not and she told me she feels (perhaps to much) for other people.  I'm still not sure she understands empathy, but in that moment, I expected a recepication of feelings whether good or bad.  Instead, I got ST.  I wasn't looking for her to profess love for me or anything.  I was just expecting some sort of feedback.  It didn't come and I feel like I messed up by asking for that.

I don't have a particular expectation with her.  Right now, I'm still raw.  Merely looking at her is painful because of the knowledge I have.  It's not like I can talk to her about it, all it would do would result in more ST.  I often forget that J is incapable of such things due to her HF nature.  I want to talk to her, but I know I can't.

I was in the same boat as you over a year ago. She left me for someone else. Then I made the mistake of responding to her various texts after. She would tell me how sorry she was and how horrible the new guy was and the guy did this and did that. It was a really bad feeling to sit there and listen to someone you love so much just rub some guy she left you for right in your face. Either good or bad it doesn't matter. I would often ask her how she felt and get personal and ask her why she called me or texted me. Being vulnerable and still feeling all these raw emotions is why I did it. Her response was either "I don't know" or "I don know I'm sorry for calling you". Both usually resulted in her not contacting me for weeks. Each time I would talk to her it set me back to square one. I then examined more things trying to answer more questions about the relationship or the end or the disorder. Then she supposedly "left" my replacement and we tried the friends thing. Who was I kidding.

Take it from me and many others on this site. I am a year and a half out and there is no change in her behavior. She is the exact same person I met. Only when I met her I knew about nothing that would happen.

[Lonely_Astro]

Thanks, once.  It isn't easy seeing her and knowing that it's been less than 2 weeks since we distanced ourselves (and less than a month since we "officially" ended), yet I know she's moved on with someone.  Yes, it's rumination on my part right now.

When I told her how I felt, I guess I expected her to be a normal adult and offer some sort of comfort.  I mean, empathy.  During a moment of clarity with her awhile back I had asked her if she had empathy or not and she told me she feels (perhaps to much) for other people.  I'm still not sure she understands empathy, but in that moment, I expected a recepication of feelings whether good or bad.  Instead, I got ST.  I wasn't looking for her to profess love for me or anything.  I was just expecting some sort of feedback.  It didn't come and I feel like I messed up by asking for that.

I don't have a particular expectation with her.  Right now, I'm still raw.  Merely looking at her is painful because of the knowledge I have.  It's not like I can talk to her about it, all it would do would result in more ST.  I often forget that J is incapable of such things due to her HF nature.  I want to talk to her, but I know I can't.

I was in the same boat as you over a year ago. She left me for someone else. Then I made the mistake of responding to her various texts after. She would tell me how sorry she was and how horrible the new guy was and the guy did this and did that. It was a really bad feeling to sit there and listen to someone you love so much just rub some guy she left you for right in your face. Either good or bad it doesn't matter. I would often ask her how she felt and get personal and ask her why she called me or texted me. Being vulnerable and still feeling all these raw emotions is why I did it. Her response was either "I don't know" or "I don know I'm sorry for calling you". Both usually resulted in her not contacting me for weeks. Each time I would talk to her it set me back to square one. I then examined more things trying to answer more questions about the relationship or the end or the disorder. Then she supposedly "left" my replacement and we tried the friends thing. Who was I kidding.

Take it from me and many others on this site. I am a year and a half out and there is no change in her behavior. She is the exact same person I met. Only when I met her I knew about nothing that would happen.

I was in the same boat as you over a year ago. She left me for someone else. Then I made the mistake of responding to her various texts after. She would tell me how sorry she was and how horrible the new guy was and the guy did this and did that. It was a really bad feeling to sit there and listen to someone you love so much just rub some guy she left you for right in your face. Either good or bad it doesn't matter. I would often ask her how she felt and get personal and ask her why she called me or texted me. Being vulnerable and still feeling all these raw emotions is why I did it. Her response was either "I don't know" or "I don know I'm sorry for calling you". Both usually resulted in her not contacting me for weeks. Each time I would talk to her it set me back to square one. I then examined more things trying to answer more questions about the relationship or the end or the disorder. Then she supposedly "left" my replacement and we tried the friends thing. Who was I kidding.

Take it from me and many others on this site. I am a year and a half out and there is no change in her behavior. She is the exact same person I met. Only when I met her I knew about nothing that would happen.

J is secretly seeing someone (whether it's R or not, who knows).  She's not openly rubbing it in my face, but it's obvious.  Anyway, I sort of feel like I'm just free falling slowly.  I have no idea why I want to be in contact with her, we had closure.  It was a peaceful closing, but I don't feel fulfilled.  Maybe it was the way it all went down and the things I found out later.  I don't really know right now the answer to all that.

I was in my office and J popped in to show me her new coffee thermos.  It's the same brand that I bought weeks earlier and she felt compelled (I guess) to show me.  She talked to me with pleasantries "how was your weekend", "do anything fun", "hows your child", that sort of thing.  I was pleasant back without much detail "it was ok", etc.  I asked the same question she did (sort of like a mirror, if you will).  She said she was fine and that she didn't do anything over the long weekend.  Funny, her car wasn't home so she did something (well, someone).  Sorry, I'm bitter.

It's difficult to deal with all this and I can't reach out to her for answers.  After all, whats the point?  Its not like I'll get the truth from her.  If I did, I'm sure it would be heart breaking news.  I'm not sure why I've let her dig into my head this far, but it has.

[once removed]

it sounds like on some level youre struggling with your sense of who she is (and isnt). given the circumstances, thats pretty reasonable.

so you expected comfort, or empathy, or feedback. reasonable in general, although keep in mind this is difficult to achieve with any former partner (ive learned that lesson too many times). it would put anyone in a difficult if not uncomfortable position.

"i feel too much empathy" is a telling statement. as a person diagnosed with BPD, it is fair to say she also struggles with both shame and frantically fleeing feelings of shame. take such a statement at face value: it all overwhelms her.

this can be a learning experience, i personally would not consider it a mistake. nothing is set back, no goal pushed further away, though i understand not being happy about the exchange. shes showed you in her response who she is (and isnt). it seems to me, as a result, you are closer to accepting that.

RE your most recent reply, have you had an opportunity to read the article on radical acceptance, or the article about not allowing people to rent space in your head? (im assuming you have)

[Learning Fast]

Hi LA,

Don't beat yourself up.  I don't see anything that indicates that you should of handled it differently.  We're humans, not robots, and have feelings.  It's simply that their capability to reciprocate is hindered by the disorder so our expectation level needs to be set accordingly.  Ironically my ex's response to any potentially emotionally laced discussion was very similar to J--- "I don't know how to respond" or "What do you want me to say" or more likely a complete change in the direction of the conversation.  I feel for you as having contact with J on a daily basis has to be a huge challenge.

Confused makes a couple of excellent points:

---Each contact sets us back---spot on---as we typically learn something about our exes thru the contact that creates more anguish for us.  My daughter and my ex's daughter are best friends so that remains the only tie (and I wish that didn't exist either, but it is what it is and I really like her daughter).

---The hint of a replacement is usually part of the contact---it may not be a direct reference but I do believe they want us to know that someone else is in the picture.  This again becomes a setback.

---They aren't going to change---we know this in our heads but it takes awhile for our hearts to catch up

I sent my ex a goodbye text (nothing "high level" emotional, was constructive and positive) 3 weeks ago after attempting to develop some type of relationship over the past 6 mos after we parted.  I simply couldn't see a way to remain friends (or even an acquaintance for that matter) and don't expect to hear back from her.  I really wanted to start 2016 clean.

The rawness and ruminations ebb as time goes on and you distance yourself (as best you can) from the relationship.  I can tell you that even after 3 short weeks she takes up less and less time in my head.  Be strong, LA.

LF

[Confused?]

Thanks, once.  It isn't easy seeing her and knowing that it's been less than 2 weeks since we distanced ourselves (and less than a month since we "officially" ended), yet I know she's moved on with someone.  Yes, it's rumination on my part right now.

When I told her how I felt, I guess I expected her to be a normal adult and offer some sort of comfort.  I mean, empathy.  During a moment of clarity with her awhile back I had asked her if she had empathy or not and she told me she feels (perhaps to much) for other people.  I'm still not sure she understands empathy, but in that moment, I expected a recepication of feelings whether good or bad.  Instead, I got ST.  I wasn't looking for her to profess love for me or anything.  I was just expecting some sort of feedback.  It didn't come and I feel like I messed up by asking for that.

I don't have a particular expectation with her.  Right now, I'm still raw.  Merely looking at her is painful because of the knowledge I have.  It's not like I can talk to her about it, all it would do would result in more ST.  I often forget that J is incapable of such things due to her HF nature.  I want to talk to her, but I know I can't.

I was in the same boat as you over a year ago. She left me for someone else. Then I made the mistake of responding to her various texts after. She would tell me how sorry she was and how horrible the new guy was and the guy did this and did that. It was a really bad feeling to sit there and listen to someone you love so much just rub some guy she left you for right in your face. Either good or bad it doesn't matter. I would often ask her how she felt and get personal and ask her why she called me or texted me. Being vulnerable and still feeling all these raw emotions is why I did it. Her response was either "I don't know" or "I don know I'm sorry for calling you". Both usually resulted in her not contacting me for weeks. Each time I would talk to her it set me back to square one. I then examined more things trying to answer more questions about the relationship or the end or the disorder. Then she supposedly "left" my replacement and we tried the friends thing. Who was I kidding.

Take it from me and many others on this site. I am a year and a half out and there is no change in her behavior. She is the exact same person I met. Only when I met her I knew about nothing that would happen.

I was in the same boat as you over a year ago. She left me for someone else. Then I made the mistake of responding to her various texts after. She would tell me how sorry she was and how horrible the new guy was and the guy did this and did that. It was a really bad feeling to sit there and listen to someone you love so much just rub some guy she left you for right in your face. Either good or bad it doesn't matter. I would often ask her how she felt and get personal and ask her why she called me or texted me. Being vulnerable and still feeling all these raw emotions is why I did it. Her response was either "I don't know" or "I don know I'm sorry for calling you". Both usually resulted in her not contacting me for weeks. Each time I would talk to her it set me back to square one. I then examined more things trying to answer more questions about the relationship or the end or the disorder. Then she supposedly "left" my replacement and we tried the friends thing. Who was I kidding.

Take it from me and many others on this site. I am a year and a half out and there is no change in her behavior. She is the exact same person I met. Only when I met her I knew about nothing that would happen.

J is secretly seeing someone (whether it's R or not, who knows).  She's not openly rubbing it in my face, but it's obvious.  Anyway, I sort of feel like I'm just free falling slowly.  I have no idea why I want to be in contact with her, we had closure.  It was a peaceful closing, but I don't feel fulfilled.  Maybe it was the way it all went down and the things I found out later.  I don't really know right now the answer to all that.

I was in my office and J popped in to show me her new coffee thermos.  It's the same brand that I bought weeks earlier and she felt compelled (I guess) to show me.  She talked to me with pleasantries "how was your weekend", "do anything fun", "hows your child", that sort of thing.  I was pleasant back without much detail "it was ok", etc.  I asked the same question she did (sort of like a mirror, if you will).  She said she was fine and that she didn't do anything over the long weekend.  Funny, her car wasn't home so she did something (well, someone).  Sorry, I'm bitter.

It's difficult to deal with all this and I can't reach out to her for answers.  After all, whats the point?  Its not like I'll get the truth from her.  If I did, I'm sure it would be heart breaking news.  I'm not sure why I've let her dig into my head this far, but it has.

I didn't mean to say rubbing it in like ha ha ha I have a boyfriend and you have no one. I just meant mentioning a certain persons name directly knowing that no matter what comes out of their mouth about them, it hurts us to hear it. You are in early stages or the break up. It is time to start letting go of the fantasy. It is for the best. There are a million reasons why I can tell you. I went over the same things in my head. Believe me I felt horrible. I felt like I hit rock bottom. This is not a person you want in your life. Could you imagine if the roles were reversed? And what she did was what you did and are still doing. How would you expect that person to react? I think once the damage is done they know deep down inside they should let go but their disorder is an attachment disorder so they can't fully do that. So it's a struggle they deal with even knowing it will never work out between you two.

[thisworld]

What should I have done differently?  Should I have stayed more superficial and lied about how I was?  Should I have 'chose not to disclose that information' (kind of formal sounding, wasn't it?)?  Should I have shut down the conversation with that line of questioning? 

Lonely_Astro hi,

I think there is nothing wrong with what you did but the meaning you attach to your own actions may be making this difficult for you. I get the feeling (but maybe I'm wrong of course) that you are evaluating your actions from a relationship perspective. I don't mean relationship in the sense of an intimate thing between you two but as something, anything between you and J. (What will your words mean to her, what will she understand from them, what will it mean in the context of your shared history, how will she interpret them, what kind of a position to they put you in now... .) But from a detached perspective, the answer can be nothing. Here is an alternative way of looking at things, if you like it: They don't mean a thing other than you sharing some accurate personal info. That's that. That's what those words are. They have no relationship implication. The relationship is over. Period. You are not responsible for how she interprets them, the way your words are perceived is not your problem. You just said them. And the relationship is over. Did you give her false hope with just one bit of accurate personal information? That's her perception. You didn't mean them, sorry, the relationship is over, period. Did you break her heart with this tiny bit of info. Again, sorry, but the relationship is over. People share personal info with strangers at the bus stop. That doesn't mean much. Neither does this. It was just one piece of info. And you are free to talk about your past as much as you like. It doesn't mean anything. You said it because she asked. That's all. You don't have to act in any particular way because you did it. You don't have to continue any dialogues because you may have initiated a personal line of communication. At worst you say, sorry I didn't mean it to start a communication like this, I'd like to stop this. That's all. It doesn't make you incoherent. It doesn't make you a bad person. One piece of personal information should not be magnified by anyone in terms of importance. Maybe you showed her your biggest wound. Ok. It's your wound. You can take it back whenever you like. Back to the style of communication you prefer. You had a lapse, you are moving on. It's nothing.

Maybe you can work on lowering your expectations from her, like empathy.

And what's that past "rigidity" you are saying about yourself? Did she tell you that you were rigid? maybe you were trying to protect yourself? You have a right to be rigid, too. Actually, pwBPD are usually more rigid - they don't change many things about themselves, do they?

[Learning Fast]

The attachment element of the disorder is a significant consideration.  My ex (like many who I've read about on these boards) has very few close friends.  As a result, I think they like to keep us tethered in their orbit as they see us as an attachment that they have some type of control over (if we let them, of course, and in addition to the need for supply issue).

I suspect that J (and my ex as well) wants to keep a small crack in the door open for future purposes.  What might those purposes be?  One thing for certain, sadly, is it will be to satisfy her needs and wants as opposed to yours.

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

What should I have done differently?  Should I have stayed more superficial and lied about how I was?  Should I have 'chose not to disclose that information' (kind of formal sounding, wasn't it?)?  Should I have shut down the conversation with that line of questioning? 

Lonely_Astro hi,

I think there is nothing wrong with what you did but the meaning you attach to your own actions may be making this difficult for you. I get the feeling (but maybe I'm wrong of course) that you are evaluating your actions from a relationship perspective. I don't mean relationship in the sense of an intimate thing between you two but as something, anything between you and J. (What will your words mean to her, what will she understand from them, what will it mean in the context of your shared history, how will she interpret them, what kind of a position to they put you in now... .) But from a detached perspective, the answer can be nothing. Here is an alternative way of looking at things, if you like it: They don't mean a thing other than you sharing some accurate personal info. That's that. That's what those words are. They have no relationship implication. The relationship is over. Period. You are not responsible for how she interprets them, the way your words are perceived is not your problem. You just said them. And the relationship is over. Did you give her false hope with just one bit of accurate personal information? That's her perception. You didn't mean them, sorry, the relationship is over, period. Did you break her heart with this tiny bit of info. Again, sorry, but the relationship is over. People share personal info with strangers at the bus stop. That doesn't mean much. Neither does this. It was just one piece of info. And you are free to talk about your past as much as you like. It doesn't mean anything. You said it because she asked. That's all. You don't have to act in any particular way because you did it. You don't have to continue any dialogues because you may have initiated a personal line of communication. At worst you say, sorry I didn't mean it to start a communication like this, I'd like to stop this. That's all. It doesn't make you incoherent. It doesn't make you a bad person. One piece of personal information should not be magnified by anyone in terms of importance. Maybe you showed her your biggest wound. Ok. It's your wound. You can take it back whenever you like. Back to the style of communication you prefer. You had a lapse, you are moving on. It's nothing.

Maybe you can work on lowering your expectations from her, like empathy.

And what's that past "rigidity" you are saying about yourself? Did she tell you that you were rigid? maybe you were trying to protect yourself? You have a right to be rigid, too. Actually, pwBPD are usually more rigid - they don't change many things about themselves, do they?

That makes sense.  I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that I don't want to trigger J, I just want to sort of float out there in space.  I don't want to be romantically involved with her because I know that just simply wouldn't be healthy.  What I miss the most is the simple interactions we had during the day.  Talking about work or what we were going to do afterward, lunches where we talked about nothing at all or told funny stories... .you know, the companionship, friendship that we had.  Like many of us, there are times that I miss being intimate with her too.  But more of what I miss is just interacting with her.  You see, J hid a lot of stuff from me that I've recently discovered and while I'm trying to sort that out, she's popping in and out of my office to talk to me like the old times (like the thermos thing, for instance).  While I can see NC being the 'best' course of action, I also can't be fully NC since we work together.  I don't want to be "that guy" and tell her to leave me alone when she's talking about a thermos... .but is she really talking about a thermos or simply finding a way to make contact?

The rigidness I referred to earlier stems from 4 years ago.  Right after the spectacular failure, I hung around in orbit for a couple or three weeks, trying to make sense of it.  She went into therapy, where she was diagnosed BPD.  I stuck around for support, but made it clear that I wasn't going to if she lied to me.  That was before I understood what 'boundaries'  were and was using the boundary of "if you lie to me, I'm out" as a hard rule.  I meant any lie.  I had had enough of that during our r/s (she was undiagnosed at the time).  So, afterward, I saw it like she had found the root.  Now it was time to do something about it (how naive I was).  Anyway, about two weeks after I told her I wouldn't accept any form of lying from her, I caught her in a lie.  With that, I refused to acknowledge her (at all).  I literally went dead silent (though she never tried to engage me).  I didn't even acknowledge her at work and would go out of my way to get something from someone else in her department.  I was very immature about the whole thing.

Now, behind the scenes, I wanted to reach out.  But I had made a statement to her and come hell or high water, I wasn't going to break what I had told her I would do for lying to me.  I was educating myself on BPD, going to therapy myself, asking questions, taking classes, and so on.  I was all consumed with getting to know why I had been dealt the hand I was.  But I wouldn't reach out to her... .I would've rather been set on fire than talk to her.  It was that bad.  I was beyond ridiculously rigid with it.

Fast forward 3 years when we talked again.  I was in a different place and so was she.  That led to a year long r/s with her.  During that time we had talked about those 3 years of silence.  She told me she often wanted to reach out but didn't.  Fear of rejection had prevented it, by what she said.  I told her why I was rigid: stubbornness, punishment, and just the "well, you can reach out just like I can but since you aren't going to, fine... .get bent" attitude I had toward her.  I never went into super great detail as to how much I loathed her for hurting me for awhile after our breakup.  She said she knew I hated her, which I played off.  For a time, I did.  But as a human, I forgave her and moved passed it.

Now, here we are.  History has repeated itself, despite my best efforts.  She may have done nasty things to me, which I am still hurt by, but I also don't want to slip into that rigid place I was before.  She is a human being, just like me.  She may be more 'dangerous' of one because of what she does (after all, she's fully aware she's hurting people), but she is no less human.  As an adult, if I have a question for someone, I ask it.  I've never been the type to not get along with an ex, if that makes sense.  Why should J be any different?  Because she's mentally ill?  I dislike she has to go through life this way, it must be miserable. 

Anyway, I took what she said about me ignoring her into account.  She had told me that she felt like she didn't exist when I would walk into a room and just ignore her or if I went to someone else for something.  She said she understood why I did it, but it still was hurtful.  I can see that.  I know I didn't like it when she ignored me, so why would it be ok for me to do it to her now?  I may have been the rock she beat on (figuratively) during the storm for a long time, but does that mean I have to be a douchebag?  Sure, she's deserving of me acting like she doesnt exist for a lot of reasons, but is that who I am?  Is that who I want to be?  The answer is no.  Do I want to be her whipping boy?  Absolutely not, but I don't have to treat her as a sub-human because she treated me that way.  I know she did the best she could with what she had to work with, I know it wasn't personal (even though it feels that way to me). 

I miss aspects of her, just as I'm sure we all do.  I'm not trying to recapture anything because I know its gone (if I could, I don't know if I could resist).  I have fresh wounds from the failure of our r/s and things are surfacing I didn't even have a clue about... .its made me question everything.  But, seeing her every day at work doesnt help me.  I have things I want to say to her, for my own sake with no expectations, but whats the point?  Would she listen to them?  Maybe.  She's never refused to talk to me, but "bad publicity is good publicity" with them, isn't it?  As long as she's getting some sort of stimuli from me, thats what matters... .right?  She doesn't care one way or the other if I talk to her, as long as what I'm saying suites her needs.  Does that about sum it up?

[thisworld]

Lonely_Astro,

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'm in a similar situation sna dyou've described it so well:

I just want to sort of float out there in space, too - now that we cannot do NC though.

Sometimes we want good things for everyone, we don't want anyone to get hurt, we just want a bit of peace perhaps. But this too requires people to behave in certain ways that they may not be capable of and it's impossible to control that. And we cannot protect people from the outcomes or consequences of  things that we do, that they do or we do together, can we? Live and let live. Sometimes, when we just stop thinking and caring the way we are used to caring, things may even get better in time.

And yes, sometimes when we lose a relationship, we lose a good friend, too. Only our exes were not always good friends to us. My good friends do not do the things he did to me. To the best of his power, maybe. That doesn't necessarily make him a good friend in my eyes. J. may be different for you.

I think J. is trying to make contact but I think that need may not be related to you as a person. Maybe she simply experiences a hit of abandonment, a moment of low self-worth, maybe this new guy didn't return a text in 10 seconds. My ex is a bit like that.

I'm not convinced that you were that immature. To me, you were hurt, you needed that. And nobody has to acknowledge anybody if they are feeling like that. There are many adult children who go NC with their parents and discuss whether they should visit them in their death bed. Many decide that they don't want to. Are they immature? It depends where you look at it from I guess. But some people who have gone through similar pains understand them. I understand them. If people are choosing to do this "extreme" thing, there is a reason. That reason should be respected. For whatever reason, they see this as a necessity to preserve themselves. That doesn't make them immature. I think we can't judge this only by behaviours. When we put the feelings into equation, the picture may change.   

Of course she is a human being and of course she is no less human. But I personally don't think we should base our decisions on that as everyone we relate to in this way will be human. J. should not be different among your exes because she is mentally disordered but she as an individual can damage your emotional and physical health. I'd say, we should forget about the disorders, diagnoses etc here and just look at things on the basis of how much effect people have on our well-being. Life is probably more miserable for a person with BPD but it depends on the individuals. It's not miserable every single second, either. And ultimately, there is nothing we can do. Not at this point in life. In addiction, there is a line of thought that says addicts have to hit the bottom before they recover. I think we are bit like that sometimes. Because they also say the bottom is as deep as you dig it. Is there an end to our pit?


I've never been the type to not get along with an ex, if that makes sense.  Why should J be any different?  Because she's mentally ill?  I dislike she has to go through life this way, it must be miserable. 

Anyway, I took what she said about me ignoring her into account.  She had told me that she felt like she didn't exist when I would walk into a room and just ignore her or if I went to someone else for something.  She said she understood why I did it, but it still was hurtful.  I can see that.  I know I didn't like it when she ignored me, so why would it be ok for me to do it to her now?  I may have been the rock she beat on (figuratively) during the storm for a long time, but does that mean I have to be a douchebag?  Sure, she's deserving of me acting like she doesnt exist for a lot of reasons, but is that who I am?  Is that who I want to be?  The answer is no.  Do I want to be her whipping boy?  Absolutely not, but I don't have to treat her as a sub-human because she treated me that way.  I know she did the best she could with what she had to work with, I know it wasn't personal (even though it feels that way to me). 

As for ignoring someone. I don't think this is only about liking it or not liking it mutually. Imagine that I'm your friend. I wouldn't like it if you ignored me for whatever reason. But if I fell in love with you and knew that it would not be reciprocated and if I said, "sorry, I can't handle talking to you at this moment in life because I hurt and it's very difficult. This is about me. I'm sorry. Please understand me." What would you do? How would you feel?

Stay strong

[Lonely_Astro]

Lonely_Astro,

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'm in a similar situation sna dyou've described it so well:

I just want to sort of float out there in space, too - now that we cannot do NC though.

Sometimes we want good things for everyone, we don't want anyone to get hurt, we just want a bit of peace perhaps. But this too requires people to behave in certain ways that they may not be capable of and it's impossible to control that. And we cannot protect people from the outcomes or consequences of  things that we do, that they do or we do together, can we? Live and let live. Sometimes, when we just stop thinking and caring the way we are used to caring, things may even get better in time.

And yes, sometimes when we lose a relationship, we lose a good friend, too. Only our exes were not always good friends to us. My good friends do not do the things he did to me. To the best of his power, maybe. That doesn't necessarily make him a good friend in my eyes. J. may be different for you.

I think J. is trying to make contact but I think that need may not be related to you as a person. Maybe she simply experiences a hit of abandonment, a moment of low self-worth, maybe this new guy didn't return a text in 10 seconds. My ex is a bit like that.

I'm not convinced that you were that immature. To me, you were hurt, you needed that. And nobody has to acknowledge anybody if they are feeling like that. There are many adult children who go NC with their parents and discuss whether they should visit them in their death bed. Many decide that they don't want to. Are they immature? It depends where you look at it from I guess. But some people who have gone through similar pains understand them. I understand them. If people are choosing to do this "extreme" thing, there is a reason. That reason should be respected. For whatever reason, they see this as a necessity to preserve themselves. That doesn't make them immature. I think we can't judge this only by behaviours. When we put the feelings into equation, the picture may change.   

Of course she is a human being and of course she is no less human. But I personally don't think we should base our decisions on that as everyone we relate to in this way will be human. J. should not be different among your exes because she is mentally disordered but she as an individual can damage your emotional and physical health. I'd say, we should forget about the disorders, diagnoses etc here and just look at things on the basis of how much effect people have on our well-being. Life is probably more miserable for a person with BPD but it depends on the individuals. It's not miserable every single second, either. And ultimately, there is nothing we can do. Not at this point in life. In addiction, there is a line of thought that says addicts have to hit the bottom before they recover. I think we are bit like that sometimes. Because they also say the bottom is as deep as you dig it. Is there an end to our pit?


I've never been the type to not get along with an ex, if that makes sense.  Why should J be any different?  Because she's mentally ill?  I dislike she has to go through life this way, it must be miserable. 

Anyway, I took what she said about me ignoring her into account.  She had told me that she felt like she didn't exist when I would walk into a room and just ignore her or if I went to someone else for something.  She said she understood why I did it, but it still was hurtful.  I can see that.  I know I didn't like it when she ignored me, so why would it be ok for me to do it to her now?  I may have been the rock she beat on (figuratively) during the storm for a long time, but does that mean I have to be a douchebag?  Sure, she's deserving of me acting like she doesnt exist for a lot of reasons, but is that who I am?  Is that who I want to be?  The answer is no.  Do I want to be her whipping boy?  Absolutely not, but I don't have to treat her as a sub-human because she treated me that way.  I know she did the best she could with what she had to work with, I know it wasn't personal (even though it feels that way to me). 

As for ignoring someone. I don't think this is only about liking it or not liking it mutually. Imagine that I'm your friend. I wouldn't like it if you ignored me for whatever reason. But if I fell in love with you and knew that it would not be reciprocated and if I said, "sorry, I can't handle talking to you at this moment in life because I hurt and it's very difficult. This is about me. I'm sorry. Please understand me." What would you do? How would you feel?

Stay strong

Thanks, this.  I have tried to remove a couple of things about the equation with her: that it was personal (which is extremely, extremely hard to do) and that being disordered doesn't give her carte blanche to hurt me.  With that said, I did have personal contact with her today because I had been sitting on how things have shaped up between us and I wanted to air it out.  I took what was said earlier, that I had been looking at it like I still needed some eggshells, and I was tired of that at work.  So I went to her and told her I needed to speak with her in private (I did reassure her, because I know how that stuff makes her anxious).  During that time, I was assertive with how I was an adult, we worked together, we had a history, it didn't end how I would've like for us to have, and so on.  I told her that I didn't have any expectations of her speaking to me after I had pulled her to the side but if she had questions for me, whatever they may be, I would do my best to openly answer them.  I wasn't a bull in a china shop, mind you, but I was firm about that I didn't want to tiptoe around each other at work because it was just to much tension.

Anyway, shortly thereafter she sent me a barrage of text.  They weren't hateful, they were actually rather self-reflective questions.  I told her I would give her my opinion, if that's what she was asking for and she said it was.  So I told her my feelings on the questions.  The last question, however was very telling.  That question was "why do I feel better now and I don't want to because of what I did to you but I can't dwell on it".  I took that as a lack of empathy, mainly due to the last 6 words of that sentence.  We know why she feels better: the pressure of the r/s is off because we are over.  That's why she feels better.  Oh and she said she had been "on a couple of dates" with someone and that someone wasn't R (another reason she's being bold: she has a fresh supply).  But, alas.

She had also recommended that I read a book during our conversation.  She had told me that it had a lot of good wisdom in it.  She alluded that she connected to the book on a personal level.  She wanted me to look into reading it (she bought me a kindle for my birthday, which I have never heard the end of, btw).  The title of the book is The Truth: An Uncomfortable Book About Relationships by Neil Strauss.  I did read a synopsis of the book and felt sick to my stomach.  It's about a sex addict diagnosed with several disorders who drops out of therapy because "it's all bull$hit", breaks up with the 'love of his life' to pursue a life of polyamory, to find the perfect balance between sexual freedom and intimacy.  The author does some next level porn stuff in the book and uses many people along the way while on his 'journey' of a year, to only discover that happiness comes from within.  So he retreats into himself for awhile and emerges like a beautiful butterfly of Zen to reconnect with his ex because he discovered what 'normal' adults already know: sex is easy, love is rare.

Anyway, I told J that her suggesting that book to me was hurtful.  The author makes the quote directly: "I am not the hero of this story, I am the villain".  I told her it was hurtful to me because of the similarities of what Strauss did to women in comparison to what had happened to me.  Basically, I was saying for all intents and purposes that J was like Strauss and I was like one of the woman that Strauss used to "fill an emotional need, because they were objects" to him.  I asked her directly if that's how she had saw me this year, an object.  Sex was always something I viewed with difficulty with J, she knows that.  So to suggest a book like that to me was very insensitive, which is why I told her what I did.  Her reply was "No.  I was just reading the book and it was a good read.  This is what I mean by flipping it around".  J was always saying that I was "flipping" her words around and using them against her.  I tried to explain to her that I wasn't "flipping" anything, that suggesting a book like that to someone who has been through what I have with fresh wounds still was, at the very least, poor judgement.  Prior to thinking about J outside of a r/s, I would've sidestepped the hurt and wouldn't have told her it was hurtful.  Now I did so, not to put it back onto her, but for her to understand that her decisions cause ripples.

[thisworld]

Hi again

Yes, it's terribly hard to accept that it's not personal in its own way. I mean, these were our love relationships. What else can be more personal? At the same time, they say sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to learn. Maybe this is a lesson for that.

And I think it's great that you didn't prioritize her in the way you acted today. I was thinking about this for myself today. A basic definition of codependency is the inability to live your truth. I think today, by speaking you lived your truth as it was today. We cannot know the relationship outcomes, we cannot always know what this brings, we cannot know what this means in terms of detachment (there are so many other factors in that) but you certainly did something for yourself. How do you feel about that?

And please be careful if your new attitude increases her "desire" or attention towards you temporarily. This happens to my ex and I think focusing on detachment may be life-saving.


Your post also made me think of the following:

You say J.is high-functioning. And my ex is objectively dysfunctional. But you know, he doesn't write things like "I can't dwell on it" unless he is dysregulating or if he feels seriously challenged - though he usually feels that I think.  I think, sometimes high-functioning partners do not make it easier on us.

And about the self-reflective questions. It was interesting for me. You and I approach these things differently I think (normal, as we are different people:)) For instance I understand that she sent them to you but I thought, why is Lonely_Astro offering to give his opinion on them before she attempts to answer them as they are self-reflective? For instance, you offer to answer them, I would ask her if she needed me to do anything with these questions, what her expectations were in this regard. (I think I may be a rude person * I would do this kindly and politely, but would be more focused on getting her answers for instance.) Though, I should note that my relationship lasted for 3 months only 

Also, "I asked her directly if that's how she had saw me this year, an object." I think this is a very very challenging question for anyone on this planet to answer honestly, especially in dynamics like this. I think very few people would say "Yes, I think so" to that openly and some of those people would have other problems themselves. So I wouldn't ask this question. Did you ask it because you were really curious about the answer? (Did you have opinions on this before and did her answer change the views you already had?) So, she doesn't think she was objectifying you. Where does that leave you in terms of your understanding of J?

Your post has been a great opportunity for me to look at myself, too. Thanks for it:))

[Lonely_Astro]

Hi again

Yes, it's terribly hard to accept that it's not personal in its own way. I mean, these were our love relationships. What else can be more personal? At the same time, they say sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to learn. Maybe this is a lesson for that.

And I think it's great that you didn't prioritize her in the way you acted today. I was thinking about this for myself today. A basic definition of codependency is the inability to live your truth. I think today, by speaking you lived your truth as it was today. We cannot know the relationship outcomes, we cannot always know what this brings, we cannot know what this means in terms of detachment (there are so many other factors in that) but you certainly did something for yourself. How do you feel about that?

And please be careful if your new attitude increases her "desire" or attention towards you temporarily. This happens to my ex and I think focusing on detachment may be life-saving.


Your post also made me think of the following:

You say J.is high-functioning. And my ex is objectively dysfunctional. But you know, he doesn't write things like "I can't dwell on it" unless he is dysregulating or if he feels seriously challenged - though he usually feels that I think.  I think, sometimes high-functioning partners do not make it easier on us.

And about the self-reflective questions. It was interesting for me. You and I approach these things differently I think (normal, as we are different people:)) For instance I understand that she sent them to you but I thought, why is Lonely_Astro offering to give his opinion on them before she attempts to answer them as they are self-reflective? For instance, you offer to answer them, I would ask her if she needed me to do anything with these questions, what her expectations were in this regard. (I think I may be a rude person * I would do this kindly and politely, but would be more focused on getting her answers for instance.) Though, I should note that my relationship lasted for 3 months only 

Also, "I asked her directly if that's how she had saw me this year, an object." I think this is a very very challenging question for anyone on this planet to answer honestly, especially in dynamics like this. I think very few people would say "Yes, I think so" to that openly and some of those people would have other problems themselves. So I wouldn't ask this question. Did you ask it because you were really curious about the answer? (Did you have opinions on this before and did her answer change the views you already had?) So, she doesn't think she was objectifying you. Where does that leave you in terms of your understanding of J?

Your post has been a great opportunity for me to look at myself, too. Thanks for it:))

I don't think what happened yesterday will increase her desire toward me.  After I had told her how I felt about her recommending the book to me, she went silent.  Keep in mind that she is dating someone as well, so I am not a priority/needed right now.  The sad part is she is aware that I miss her and that I miss "us", that I am grieving the loss of the r/s, but she "can't dwell on it" and has moved on.  I don't see any attempt by her to draw me back coming (at least in the near future).  Especially since I triggered her by "flipping it around" on her, even though she couldn't/didn't see that suggesting such a book to me was hurtful to me.

HF, to me, makes it extremely harder to disengage from because of the 'normalcy' that we see with them.  What I mean is that we begin to wonder if it was us or them that brought the end.  J has blamed a lot of our failure on me.  I'm not sure if you're aware of how we started and what the past year has been like, but she won't take responsibility for her role in all this (which isn't surprising).  If she does 'take' responsibility, it feels forced or faked to me.  Could it be real?  I guess, but it doesnt feel that way to me.

About the self-reflective questions (which did surprise me, as it seemed like a moment where she was open), I did ask her what she thought about them and got the standard "idk" response.  After a few bouts of trying to see if she would answer the questions herself, I told her I would offer my opinion on why I felt we got to where we were.  But, like everything else, after I gave my opinion, she simply didn't respond to it.  I didn't press her, the answers I gave were from my point of view and she can agree with them or not, they are mine and mine alone (something I told her at the beginning of me answering the barrage).  I also told her if she disagreed with my take on it, to please tell me so we could talk about it.  We didn't.

I understand what you mean about me asking if I were merely an object to her.  It was a heat of the moment kind of response after I had read the synopsis of the book.  That came after I had asked the name of the book again and I was going to look into it, she followed up the title with "did you get your kindle out?  Are you going to read it?"  She bought me the kindle for my birthday (a gift I now hate that I accepted as I have never lived it down from her) and she was upset that I had packed it away with other trinkets she had gotten me ("I don't know why you would do that, it's not like it has my face on it or anything and it was expensive".  That's when I had read the synopsis and was feeling hurt.  I told her I hadn't gotten the kindle out and I wasn't going to read the book because of its content and how I felt it was insensitive that she had suggested such a book to me given our history.  So, I asked the question out of pain more than anything.  The theme of the book is about a guy who says he deeply loves this woman but monogamy is bs, so he dumps her, goes on mega level sexcapades, only to discover what most normal adults already know: sex isn't the answer, love and intimacy with a partner is.  It mirrors what I experienced with J over the past year and didn't even know it at the time.

Don't get me wrong.  J and I started as an affair.  I knew she was married to M and I was married to.  So, I knew M was in the picture.  But, in this year, there was M, me, B, N, R, and now a new guy.  I'm not saying she slept with all of them, but they were all involved with her in some way this year.  She certainly is polyamorous, whether by choice or by design.  Granted she 'left' her husband early in our r/s or at least she told me.  But, things didn't add up and when I asked (not that I was casting a stone and she had told me due to our past from 3 years prior if something seemed 'off' to me, that I needed to directly confront her about it) she always had an excuse.  At first, those excuses were pretty believable.  As time went on, they got less solid and more fluid.  For instance, I was looking at her phone one day because I was thinking of getting one like it and it rang.  It was her ex bf N, who she claimed to never have contact with, who she had cheated on with me 3 years prior with, and was an ultimately raw topic with me.  Now, she had also cheated on M with N while her and M were dating (just prior to their engagement).  The rumor going around was that she had been caught with N after she married M and thats what caused the marriage to start breaking up.  She denied seeing N after her engagement and beyond.  But, frankly, I never believed that and I didn't believe her reason for him calling her that day.  Heres why: she had a new number after she married M.  N had no reason to have her number if she had not had contact with him.  She told me that a friend of hers and given it to him because he was trying to get in touch with her about a bill that was sent to his house (she had lived with him around 3 years ago, I guess when we were seeing each other - I didn't know it at the time but I was the other guy back then).  Just so we're straight on this, J hadn't lived with N in over 3 years yet an "old medical bill" was sent to that address.  He was calling to tell her he put it in her parents mailbox.  Ok.  A couple of weeks later, I brought it up and she said that N had called because some paperwork from where she had traded her car in had went to N's address.  She had gotten a new car a few months after she married M.  So there was zero reason for that.  So, that was a lie.  That's when I had began to lose my faith in her and felt she was back to (if she ever left) her old lifestyle.

Now, keep in mind while all this was going on, I was still married as well so I couldn't exactly throw stones.  No one will ever believe this, but I wasn't sleeping with my wife while I was seeing J.  We were roommates (without benefits) with a kid.  That was it.  My T has suggested that because I was in such an invalidating r/s is why I started looking outside of it to feel the need.  Anyway, I would bring up to J about how I was suspect of this or that and she would get angry.  She would always throw it in my face that I was still married and I would point out she was as well and that because we were engaged in an affair doesn't mean we have to be dishonest with each other.  In fact, it should be even more of a reason for us to be open and honest.  But, thats a different topic. 

Sorry, I got off topic, I was just expanding on why I feel like J connected to that book.  It mirrors her and she sees it as "ok" to be this way because of what this guy did.  Even though the book ends with him finding peace and happiness with himself, reconnecting with his ex and marrying her, he sort of skips over what he had done to past lovers that he used along the way.  While I haven't read the book, what I see there is a selfish individual who went on a 'journey of self discovery', using people along the way, and made money off of it (by the way, his first book was called The Game.  It was a how-to book on being a pick up artist to use women for sex).  While its a best seller, for what ever reason, I personally found the idea of it off-putting and a little disgusting.  He even opens the book with "Inga, if you're reading this, stop now."  Inga is the girl he went on to marry, the girl he dumped in the beginning of his journey, and had a kid with.  So what does that tell you the book is full of?

Where this leaves me in terms of J is that J is more of a mess than I thought.  When we first split up, I was devastated.  It hurt.  It still does.  I had put a lot into our r/s.  I knew she was BPD (even though she told me she had been through DBT - which was a lie - and was medicated - that may be true).  So we talked for ages in the beginning about that.  It's the only reason why I got back involved with her.  I told myself at the first sign of 'weirdness', I'd go, which I didn't.  I tried to work through everything with her as it came, but there was a lot going on behind the scenes.  I mean, A LOT.  It tore me up that someone else is getting the best of her.  They are getting those good morning photos, getting to hold her hand, getting to see her smile and laugh, getting to kiss her, getting to sleep with her, and getting to experience life with her... .like I wanted to do forever.  Disordered or not, I love her.  I have since I first met her 4 years ago.

Now, she seems stable.  More stable than when we were together, I mean.  She had told me that her mom and her were getting along (her mom is a momster) and her mom was "staying out of" her business (her mom constantly calls/texts J, I personally saw this while we were together).  She claims she's still in DBT (she started mid-Sept, my discard started suddenly in early Oct and never recovered) and that's "going well".  Like she said yesterday, she "feels better but doesn't want to bc of all the stuff she did to" me.  She's been dating.  She wants me to move on.  I have asked her why we failed and she said it was because we "didn't have anything in common, really".  Which is a lame excuse.  I should mention that for all intents and purposes, I was single in late August.  J and I spent pretty much most of September together.  In early October, she went silent on me for a day.  Just poof, gone.  She started a fight with me the next day and we never recovered from that.  She would talk via text or on the phone but wouldn't come see me or do anything with me outside of work.  She was always to busy to have lunch with me.  I saw the discard coming and couldn't correct it.  Now's a good time to mention that she had told me in Jan/Feb of 2015 she was divorcing M (truth was she didn't actually start the divorce until late October of 2015).

Theres still a part of me that feels like this new guy will have the magic crabby patty formula and he'll get everything that I wanted with her.  I don't know if that'll ever go away.