Gut punched...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So for those of you that don't know my story, I'll give a quick run down:  was romantically involved with J 4 years ago, lasted 4 months, left overnight, and found out from her she had been diagnosed BPD.  NC (even though we work together) for 3 years.  Started a r/s again, lasted a year.  Discard started in early October by J (diagnosed, medicated, and in DBT (as of mid Sept).  I saw the discard happening and after much pleading, met with J in mid November for a face to face talk (up until that time, she would talk via text but it usually resulted in a fight).  After several hours of talking, I directly asked her if she wanted us to be over or if she wanted to stay committed to each other and working on our r/s.  Her response was "I don't want us to end.  We will get through this, like we always do."  With that, we had a long hug and she left.  It was the last hug I would ever get from her.

Nothing changed.  I mean, nothing.  By mid December, I discovered she had been on a date with a new guy (R).  When confronted, at first she denied it being a date and feigned that she didn't understand we were still together, and said she just "had dinner" with R since he was an old friend and he was going through the same thing as her (a divorce) and they had a "bit*h session".  During that conversation, she let it slip that she had had dinner with him twice, once after work and another that following weekend.  She conceded that the second time "kinda sorta may have been" a date.  So, a date.  I need to back up for a second, J had dated a guy without me knowing it for the month of July.  When I found out about that, I ended our r/s.  After a couple of weeks of talking every day, all day, and all night, we ended up giving it another shot.  I know, I know.  But, I did.  That's what led to her starting DBT in mid-Sept.

Back to present time, after the R incident, I knew I was finished.  To try to ease out of the r/s, I told her that she had known she had crossed my personal boundary (no cheating) that we had well established after what had happened in July and that at the end of the year, we would no longer be speaking on personal terms.  I was clear this wasn't punishment, but for my own health.  She talked to me everyday (it wasn't quite lovebombing, but I would say it was close) and alluded to wanting to try to work it out in the final week of December.  She was so clear, so grounded, I began to question my resolve and if I was doing the right thing by exiting like I was. 

When the clock struck midnight, I dreaded it.  Later that day on New Year, she sent me a HNY text and I replied.  We didn't speak for two weeks.  I burned to, but I didn't.  I was at my coffee shop (I say my, because I go there every morning, you can practically set your watch by it) and J came in.  I caved and talked to her.  I was trying to be an adult or I wanted to talk to her or a combination of both.  Anyway, mid way through the conversation, she freaked out because R was coming to the same shop.  I immediately shut down on her.  I was in so much pain over that, even though she kept saying to me "it wasn't like that" and came to my office to apologize for "the awkwardness" that had happened at the shop.  She kept saying she wasn't dating him and running him down to me.  In retrospect, I think she freaked out because she didn't want R to see me talking to her (R's divorce was spurned on by his soon to be ex wife was sleeping with not one but two of my co-workers).  I didn't talk to her the rest of that day.  I have talked to her since, though.

Keep in mind that she was wanting to give it another shot in December.  In the two weeks of silence between us, I have found out somethings that I wish I hadn't.  Having talked to J the past few days, I have seen more sociopath BPD behavior from her than I have ever seen before (her actual statement: "why do I feel better now and I don't want to because of what I did to doubt I can't dwell on it".  She had told me she had "been on a couple of dates with someone".  Ouch.  I saw her today and I was having a down day and she asked me what was wrong.  I could've lied, but I didn't.  I told her I would be ok, I was just going through the process (I meant grief).  She looked at me blankly.  I explained to her that I was in grief over the end of our r/s and she replied with "I'm sorry.  I just don't feel like you do."  I didn't ask for any more of a detailed explanation.  Yes, J, it's quite obvious that you don't feel like a normal, functioning adult.  I get that.  Previous to that, I had told J I had a long day ahead of me and that I had to be back in the office after hours for a conference call.  I also said I would be in and out all day.  Keep that in mind, it plays into the title of this thread.

This is where the gut punch part comes in.  After the office had closed, I had to come back, like I had told her.  I have to use the entrance thats close to her desk, so I had to walk by it.  Sitting there, on proud display, was a dozen roses.  I was totally unprepared for that moment.  But why am I not surprised, yet feel like   ? 

Today wasn't an easy day.  I have a long weekend starting tomorrow and I have vowed to myself that I will be NC from this point forward with J.  I still feel sick and knotted up just typing this... .

[Lonely_Astro]

So for those of you that don't know my story, I'll give a quick run down:  was romantically involved with J 4 years ago, lasted 4 months, left overnight, and found out from her she had been diagnosed BPD.  NC (even though we work together) for 3 years.  Started a r/s again, lasted a year.  Discard started in early October by J (diagnosed, medicated, and in DBT (as of mid Sept).  I saw the discard happening and after much pleading, met with J in mid November for a face to face talk (up until that time, she would talk via text but it usually resulted in a fight).  After several hours of talking, I directly asked her if she wanted us to be over or if she wanted to stay committed to each other and working on our r/s.  Her response was "I don't want us to end.  We will get through this, like we always do."  With that, we had a long hug and she left.  It was the last hug I would ever get from her.

Nothing changed.  I mean, nothing.  By mid December, I discovered she had been on a date with a new guy (R).  When confronted, at first she denied it being a date and feigned that she didn't understand we were still together, and said she just "had dinner" with R since he was an old friend and he was going through the same thing as her (a divorce) and they had a "bit*h session".  During that conversation, she let it slip that she had had dinner with him twice, once after work and another that following weekend.  She conceded that the second time "kinda sorta may have been" a date.  So, a date.  I need to back up for a second, J had dated a guy without me knowing it for the month of July.  When I found out about that, I ended our r/s.  After a couple of weeks of talking every day, all day, and all night, we ended up giving it another shot.  I know, I know.  But, I did.  That's what led to her starting DBT in mid-Sept.

Back to present time, after the R incident, I knew I was finished.  To try to ease out of the r/s, I told her that she had known she had crossed my personal boundary (no cheating) that we had well established after what had happened in July and that at the end of the year, we would no longer be speaking on personal terms.  I was clear this wasn't punishment, but for my own health.  She talked to me everyday (it wasn't quite lovebombing, but I would say it was close) and alluded to wanting to try to work it out in the final week of December.  She was so clear, so grounded, I began to question my resolve and if I was doing the right thing by exiting like I was. 

When the clock struck midnight, I dreaded it.  Later that day on New Year, she sent me a HNY text and I replied.  We didn't speak for two weeks.  I burned to, but I didn't.  I was at my coffee shop (I say my, because I go there every morning, you can practically set your watch by it) and J came in.  I caved and talked to her.  I was trying to be an adult or I wanted to talk to her or a combination of both.  Anyway, mid way through the conversation, she freaked out because R was coming to the same shop.  I immediately shut down on her.  I was in so much pain over that, even though she kept saying to me "it wasn't like that" and came to my office to apologize for "the awkwardness" that had happened at the shop.  She kept saying she wasn't dating him and running him down to me.  In retrospect, I think she freaked out because she didn't want R to see me talking to her (R's divorce was spurned on by his soon to be ex wife was sleeping with not one but two of my co-workers).  I didn't talk to her the rest of that day.  I have talked to her since, though.

Keep in mind that she was wanting to give it another shot in December.  In the two weeks of silence between us, I have found out somethings that I wish I hadn't.  Having talked to J the past few days, I have seen more sociopath BPD behavior from her than I have ever seen before (her actual statement: "why do I feel better now and I don't want to because of what I did to doubt I can't dwell on it".  She had told me she had "been on a couple of dates with someone".  Ouch.  I saw her today and I was having a down day and she asked me what was wrong.  I could've lied, but I didn't.  I told her I would be ok, I was just going through the process (I meant grief).  She looked at me blankly.  I explained to her that I was in grief over the end of our r/s and she replied with "I'm sorry.  I just don't feel like you do."  I didn't ask for any more of a detailed explanation.  Yes, J, it's quite obvious that you don't feel like a normal, functioning adult.  I get that.  Previous to that, I had told J I had a long day ahead of me and that I had to be back in the office after hours for a conference call.  I also said I would be in and out all day.  Keep that in mind, it plays into the title of this thread.

This is where the gut punch part comes in.  After the office had closed, I had to come back, like I had told her.  I have to use the entrance thats close to her desk, so I had to walk by it.  Sitting there, on proud display, was a dozen roses.  I was totally unprepared for that moment.  But why am I not surprised, yet feel like   ? 

Today wasn't an easy day.  I have a long weekend starting tomorrow and I have vowed to myself that I will be NC from this point forward with J.  I still feel sick and knotted up just typing this... .

[hopealways]

Sorry to hear your pain. I can understand this. Mine had flowers sent to her while we were dating. Only way I found out was because the buzzer to her front door rang to my cel phone and when I asked who it was they said flower delivery. She later explained that it was some older guy who was infatuated with her and met her at some party but the million dollar question remained: how in the world did he have her address? She claimed he got it from a mutual friend. So I told her to call that friend in front of me and ask her if that's what happened. She refused, of course. I was so hurt, broke up with her, of course she reeled me back in... .10x more.

My point is, I get your pain BUT this is the nature of their disorder.  Reading the 1000s of posts, the patterns are eerily similar.  Who are we kidding to think that our BPDx would be different?  We hope that this time, and with us, it will be different.  Just like, perhaps, we hoped things would be different with our own parents during chaotic childhoods with fighting parents (this was my case).

The evolved human inside us pushes us away from these folks because we KNOW they are not good for our survival.  But the emotional side of us, which is core damaged, believes we can be the one man who fixed this damsel in distress.  After all, wouldn't that be great for our wounded ego?  There is nothing more tragic than a man who chases a borderline. In fact, he is chasing his own destruction. Remember this, move forward and thrive. You WILL get through this. Be kind to yourself, you deserve healthier.

[Lonely_Astro]

Sorry to hear your pain. I can understand this. Mine had flowers sent to her while we were dating. Only way I found out was because the buzzer to her front door rang to my cel phone and when I asked who it was they said flower delivery. She later explained that it was some older guy who was infatuated with her and met her at some party but the million dollar question remained: how in the world did he have her address? She claimed he got it from a mutual friend. So I told her to call that friend in front of me and ask her if that's what happened. She refused, of course. I was so hurt, broke up with her, of course she reeled me back in... .10x more.

My point is, I get your pain BUT this is the nature of their disorder.  Reading the 1000s of posts, the patterns are eerily similar.  Who are we kidding to think that our BPDx would be different?  We hope that this time, and with us, it will be different.  Just like, perhaps, we hoped things would be different with our own parents during chaotic childhoods with fighting parents (this was my case).

The evolved human inside us pushes us away from these folks because we KNOW they are not good for our survival.  But the emotional side of us, which is core damaged, believes we can be the one man who fixed this damsel in distress.  After all, wouldn't that be great for our wounded ego?  There is nothing more tragic than a man who chases a borderline. In fact, he is chasing his own destruction. Remember this, move forward and thrive. You WILL get through this. Be kind to yourself, you deserve healthier.

Thanks, Hope.  I never believed that I could 'fix' J.  I had hoped she was better managed.  When we started up a year ago, she had told me she was medicated and had been through DBT.  We talked for ages about BPD and r/s stuff before we even agreed to start.  Later, as things began to break down, I had asked about DBT and it turned out she had lied about her 'intensive therapy' that I had specifically asked if it was DBT.  It wasn't, as far as I can tell it was a regular counselor (and I even question if that was the case).  I basically entered into this r/s with her knowing she was BP, so some of this is my fault.  Like I said, I didn't think I could 'fix' her, she presented herself as 'better' from the start.  Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't.  By the end, she certainly wasn't.

In a twist of irony, this is how I found out she was seeing B in July as well.  He sent her flowers at work, which I obviously asked about because we were seeing each other.  She had told me that her gf (K) had sent them to her because her and K had had a huge fight and K had sent them as a make up gesture.  I found that highly unlikely and challenged J, but she stuck to that story (after all, what friend sends a dozen red roses to another friend as a makeup gesture?  Granted I'm not a girl, but no girls I have ever known have done so).  A few days later, J was leaving for the beach and her boss (who I was mutual friends with) gave her the day off.  I came in and feigned that I didn't know this to our friend (who didn't know about our r/s at the time) and asked where J was.  She told me that she had given J the day off and I replied with how nice that was since J had been stressed out.  My friend said that she shouldn't be to stressed out since who she was dating had sent her flowers.  I'm sure I looked like a minion from despicable me with that "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?" look because thats how I found out J was seeing B (and had been for the month of July).

What's funny is how "enlightened" J has been acting the past few days that I've been talking to her.  She's been so self aware and talking about all this "self discovery" stuff.  She was going on and on about how she's still going to DBT, recommended that I read The Truth by Neil Strauss (hint: it's a story about a guy who dumps his gf after cheating on her, even though she was the "love of his life", goes on epic level sex orgy retreats, only to withdraw into himself because he finds himself still empty, finds his inner Zen, returns to the way of monogamy, and marries the girl he broke up with... .sound familiar?), and has been talking all this stuff about how she wants to be better and is determined to do just that.  In the mix of that, she looks at me and says thinks like "I'm sorry.  I just don't feel like you do."  You don't feel like you wasted a year of your life?  Huh.  Surprise, surprise.

Obviously she hasn't been on just "a couple of dates" with someone and they're sending her flowers already.  If so, this is certainly going to be a volatile r/s to say the least.  She's hooked that guy already and he doesn't even realize it. Of course, who knows how long this r/s has really been going on.  Plus, why leave the flowers at work?  To torture me, that's why.  Or, she doesn't want her mom to ask her questions and she left them there instead of taking them home.  If I were a betting man, it was the first theory and not the second.

[Learning Fast]

Hi LA,

I've followed your story since inception and can't imagine the difficulty of an ex working with me in the workforce.

You're making the right decision as NC is the best policy at this point.  Any contact with J need to be business only.  Period.  I know this is easy for me to say but reducing any exposure you can to J beyond what is necessary will help you move forward.

As HA mentioned this is the nature of their disorder.  They are toddlers emotionally and reframing her behavior in that context answers many baffling questions.  My ex texted me over the New Year's holiday (while she was with my replacement I'm sure) from a place where we had spent one of our most memorable weekends together.  Yet she didn't respond to my Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays text.  You and HA both had the flowers incidents along with the lame excuses as to their origin. Plus you had the flowers on the desk in addition.  Who does things like this?  Those who are emotionally immature.

One thought would be to eliminate as many of the visuals/verbals as possible.  Always have a document or something else that you're reading in your hands if you have to pass her office.  Try to communicate as much as possible at work thru email and avoid unnecessary conversations.  I mentioned these because in my 3 wks of NC I've been surprised at how my ruminations of her have dissipated as my recollection of what she looks and sounds like fades.

Stay strong, take care of you and post frequently as better things are ahead.

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

Hi LA,

I've followed your story since inception and can't imagine the difficulty of an ex working with me in the workforce.

You're making the right decision as NC is the best policy at this point.  Any contact with J need to be business only.  Period.  I know this is easy for me to say but reducing any exposure you can to J beyond what is necessary will help you move forward.

As HA mentioned this is the nature of their disorder.  They are toddlers emotionally and reframing her behavior in that context answers many baffling questions.  My ex texted me over the New Year's holiday (while she was with my replacement I'm sure) from a place where we had spent one of our most memorable weekends together.  Yet she didn't respond to my Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays text.  You and HA both had the flowers incidents along with the lame excuses as to their origin. Plus you had the flowers on the desk in addition.  Who does things like this?  Those who are emotionally immature.

One thought would be to eliminate as many of the visuals/verbals as possible.  Always have a document or something else that you're reading in your hands if you have to pass her office.  Try to communicate as much as possible at work thru email and avoid unnecessary conversations.  I mentioned these because in my 3 wks of NC I've been surprised at how my ruminations of her have dissipated as my recollection of what she looks and sounds like fades.

Stay strong, take care of you and post frequently as better things are ahead.

LF

Thanks for the words of encouragement, LF.  I agree that the roses on the desk stunt was extremely immature, to say the least.  It does of course put a lot of her seemingly balanced behavior into perspective.  The fact is she isn't balanced at all, she's just feeling elated right now from the euphoria of a new mate.  She "doesn't feel the way I do" because she's already falling in love with someone new, he's the priority right now.  At one point, somewhere down the line, I experienced what he is experiencing now.  Perhaps they'll have better success because he's a clean slate, doesn't have a history with her like do, and is more compatible with her.

I still feel like I wasted a year.  I tried so hard to maintain the r/s with her, even with our situations being what they were.  That makes me angry that all that work, all that sacrifice is looked at "oh well" by her.  I've been ruminating on the "what ifs" since I saw the flowers.  I think why it's more painful for me this time is because we were unbelievably more close this time than 4 years ago (all the way around).  I had always felt I would end up here at some point, but I hoped against hope that I wouldn't.

I'm sad. I'm angry. I'm resentful of the new guy because he has what I want. I can't, for whatever reason today, shut out the thought of her making love to him to get those roses.  Or what their going to be doing this weekend or... .the list goes on.  I also can't believe how vile of a human she is to use people like objects.  It should be illegal.

Sigh.  I'm sorry for my bitterness and disdain.  I am in a lot of pain with this.

[C.Stein]

I think why it's more painful for me this time is because we were unbelievably more close this time than 4 years ago (all the way around).

But were you really?  On a percentage basis (1-100) how much of the second time around was good (ideal) vs. bad (broken)?

[Lonely_Astro]

I think why it's more painful for me this time is because we were unbelievably more close this time than 4 years ago (all the way around).

But were you really?  On a percentage basis (1-100) how much of the second time around was good (ideal) vs. bad (broken)?

its hard for me to put a percentage on it, because it was up and down.  I can tell you how this time was different than last: we were in contact all the time (in person, text, phone call, or FaceTime).  She would have lunch/dinner with me, she would come over and just sit on the couch with me until the wee hours of the morning, we slept together, we got each other gifts.  We were just "closer" this time around.  4 years ago, it was nothing like that.  Sure we talked and I got sucked in quick (I had no idea about BPD then and neither did she), but we weren't that close, in reality.  This time, it was just different.  Until, it wasn't.

What I mean by that is J was actually lying to me pretty much the whole year.  M was in the background and I often wonder what he was experiencing.  I feel my role swapped after M's departure.  I became M and the new guy has become me.  But this is where I start to slide. What if I truly was the cause?  I have a thread about this on here somewhere where I ask myself that when I made the decision to exit.  I think that's human nature, we want what we can't have and we get jealous when someone has something we don't.

It has been a long standing fear of mine that DBT will be successful, she'll suddenly 'change' and won't be ruled by her BPD.  She had told me I was the reason she got diagnosed.  She also said I was the reason she decided to go to DBT... .because she didn't want to lose me and wanted to beat her disorder.  I worked hard this past year and for awhile that work seemed to have paid off.  But, it hadn't, had it?  But what if, somehow, I did sow those seeds for success and I won't get to see those seeds blossom?  Maybe I set the new guy up for success and he'll get everything I struggled, sacrificed, and endured.  He didn't have to pay the price like I did, he didn't have to weather the storm, all he had to do was walk in and have the keys to the kingdom handed to him.  J always stopped me from sending her gifts at work (or at home, for that matter).  If she ever picked up on the notion I was planning something like that, she was totally against it.  Yet, she has no problem with the new guy doing it.  Is it to punish me?  To bring me right where I am, being manipulated and missing her?  She knows how to push my buttons. She has done so.

[Wantingtochange]

I think why it's more painful for me this time is because we were unbelievably more close this time than 4 years ago (all the way around).

But were you really?  On a percentage basis (1-100) how much of the second time around was good (ideal) vs. bad (broken)?

its hard for me to put a percentage on it, because it was up and down.  I can tell you how this time was different than last: we were in contact all the time (in person, text, phone call, or FaceTime).  She would have lunch/dinner with me, she would come over and just sit on the couch with me until the wee hours of the morning, we slept together, we got each other gifts.  We were just "closer" this time around.  4 years ago, it was nothing like that.  Sure we talked and I got sucked in quick (I had no idea about BPD then and neither did she), but we weren't that close, in reality.  This time, it was just different.  Until, it wasn't.

What I mean by that is J was actually lying to me pretty much the whole year.  M was in the background and I often wonder what he was experiencing.  I feel my role swapped after M's departure.  I became M and the new guy has become me.  But this is where I start to slide. What if I truly was the cause?  I have a thread about this on here somewhere where I ask myself that when I made the decision to exit.  I think that's human nature, we want what we can't have and we get jealous when someone has something we don't.

It has been a long standing fear of mine that DBT will be successful, she'll suddenly 'change' and won't be ruled by her BPD.  She had told me I was the reason she got diagnosed.  She also said I was the reason she decided to go to DBT... .because she didn't want to lose me and wanted to beat her disorder.  I worked hard this past year and for awhile that work seemed to have paid off.  But, it hadn't, had it?  But what if, somehow, I did sow those seeds for success and I won't get to see those seeds blossom?  Maybe I set the new guy up for success and he'll get everything I struggled, sacrificed, and endured.  He didn't have to pay the price like I did, he didn't have to weather the storm, all he had to do was walk in and have the keys to the kingdom handed to him.  J always stopped me from sending her gifts at work (or at home, for that matter).  If she ever picked up on the notion I was planning something like that, she was totally against it.  Yet, she has no problem with the new guy doing it.  Is it to punish me?  To bring me right where I am, being manipulated and missing her?  She knows how to push my buttons. She has done so.

What struck me as I read this is "Is it to punish me? being manipulated and missing her?" I know it sounds so simple but why would you want to be with anyone who does these things and is so cruel about it? I bet on some level many of us struggle with that very question, I know I do. Hang in there, one day at a time. One hour at a time. One minute at a time. What ever it takes.

[C.Stein]

its hard for me to put a percentage on it, because it was up and down.

Doesn't the part in bold pretty much say it all?  Did you ever have a consistent and significant time period during last year where you could honestly say I wanna marry this girl and make babies with her?

This time, it was just different.  Until, it wasn't.

And wasn't this always the case?

I've been following your story since Oct. and the impression I have gotten is you want to be with her but you don't, and you have vacillated between those two states for quite a while now.  Are the reasons you want to be with her superficial (sex) or are they deeper (marriage/companionship).   I think it is important to really understand why you still want her after what she has put you through.

I know all too well the feelings you are going through right now.  I feel my ex got significantly "better", or at least more stable, as a result of my guidance and support.  I too feel cheated when I wonder if she might finally get a clue at my expense.  And yea, the thought of her with my replacement doesn't do me any good either, as is to be expected.   I do want her to be happy I just wanted it to be with me.

I'm not going to tip-toe here since I think you are a guy who appreciates honesty so I'll just say it.  The impression I have gotten from your posts on the saga that is J is when she is showing interest in you you don't want anything to do with her.  Then when she stops showing interest you start questioning yourself and expressing thoughts about maybe it could work out and a (restrained) desire to get back with her.

I understand how difficult it must be to detach from someone when you are working with them but when you start questioning your own hard line boundaries you have to start asking yourself why.

Now you obviously know J better than anyone here but consider you might be jumping to conclusions with the whole roses thing.  Maybe they were a surprise to her ... .maybe she forgot to take them with her?  Even if she does have a hidden agenda here the important thing to realize is you are still letting her control you emotionally.  I know it is damned hard not to let it impact you LA but honestly, you seemed to be in a good place after your goodbye talk in December (I think) but recently have been slipping back into the same old trap you have struggled so hard to get out of.   You seem to be walking in place right now, giving you the illusion you are moving forward when in reality you aren't moving at all.

[izabellizima]

I totally get the "someone else will benefit from my hard work" aspect of your frustration.

Consider it your gift to the world, not just her future partner, also know that DBT takes loads of time and commitment and that even if you graduate from it you can regress.

In the end, if you made the choice to be without her, you have to focus on you and let go of her.

Would you feel better if you found another person to really connect to and be friends with?

Would it be better if that person were a woman and you could date her?

Is this about her moving on and you being stuck here on these forums?

Maybe you should crank the NC up to waves and nods and courteous replies only. As for her flaunting flowers... .women do that. Clueless taught me that trick.

Would throwing yourself on something to obsess over be out of the question (WoW JuJiTzu... .)

[Lonely_Astro]

its hard for me to put a percentage on it, because it was up and down.

Doesn't the part in bold pretty much say it all?  Did you ever have a consistent and significant time period during last year where you could honestly say I wanna marry this girl and make babies with her?

This time, it was just different.  Until, it wasn't.

And wasn't this always the case?

I've been following your story since Oct. and the impression I have gotten is you want to be with her but you don't, and you have vacillated between those two states for quite a while now.  Are the reasons you want to be with her superficial (sex) or are they deeper (marriage/companionship).   I think it is important to really understand why you still want her after what she has put you through.

I know all too well the feelings you are going through right now.  I feel my ex got significantly "better", or at least more stable, as a result of my guidance and support.  I too feel cheated when I wonder if she might finally get a clue at my expense.  And yea, the thought of her with my replacement doesn't do me any good either, as is to be expected.   I do want her to be happy I just wanted it to be with me.

I'm not going to tip-toe here since I think you are a guy who appreciates honesty so I'll just say it.  The impression I have gotten from your posts on the saga that is J is when she is showing interest in you you don't want anything to do with her.  Then when she stops showing interest you start questioning yourself and expressing thoughts about maybe it could work out and a (restrained) desire to get back with her.

I understand how difficult it must be to detach from someone when you are working with them but when you start questioning your own hard line boundaries you have to start asking yourself why.

Now you obviously know J better than anyone here but consider you might be jumping to conclusions with the whole roses thing.  Maybe they were a surprise to her ... .maybe she forgot to take them with her?  Even if she does have a hidden agenda here the important thing to realize is you are still letting her control you emotionally.  I know it is damned hard not to let it impact you LA but honestly, you seemed to be in a good place after your goodbye talk in December (I think) but recently have been slipping back into the same old trap you have struggled so hard to get out of.   You seem to be walking in place right now, giving you the illusion you are moving forward when in reality you aren't moving at all.

Stein, thanks for the honesty, but I think you may have misunderstood my writings over the past few months.  They have been posted in real time, when things were happening and I was dealing with them in the best way I could.  I'm not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that I didn't want to have anything to do with J when she was paying attention to me.  J and I had discussed a lot of stuff prior to when we first started up and she had told me to talk to her about any thing I found "odd" about her behavior if/when something like that happened.  Of course, when I did, she would get upset/angry about it and tell me that I "was never going to trust her because of her past" and other things.  That wasn't true, I came into the r/s with an open mind and under the impression that she was managed.  I expected there to be 'issues', sure.  I was committed to working through those issues.  But one person can't make a r/s work, it takes two.  The problem was (for me) that J had told me directly to ask outright if anything I felt was 'odd', so we could have open communication.  When I did, I was the bad guy for not trusting her.  

But you know what I later found out?  Those 'oddities' weren't oddities.  They were what I suspected at the time and she lied to me about them, when she would give an explanation.  Often times she would shift it back to me immediately rather than offer any explanation.  Of course, the more frequent the oddity throughout the year, the more of a persecutor I became.  Our r/s began to truly erode when the excuses became more and more flimsy and I knew that I was losing her.  I knew in late June that I was losing her, but I didn't want to.  When I found out about B in July, I made the decision that I had to go.  I told her that I hoped he made her happy and hoped he could give her the things that I couldn't.  I had released her.  Yeah, I felt like $hit for it because I didn't want to.  I wanted to stay with her, not because I wanted to fix her, but because I cared about her far above just using her for sex.  We ended up trying to work it out and I came back even more committed to working on things with her.  August and September were great months for us.  We were in a great place (or so I thought) at the end of September.   In October, you know how it's played out from there.

Theres one thing I can say to this day about what I did and didn't do to J: I never lied to her, ever.  Every step along the way, every hesitation that came up, every feeling I had... .I told her.  Sometimes I told her while we were talking, others when she directly asked.  She got mad at me because I wouldn't tell her about what was going on in my marriage and when/if I was going to leave for her, even though I did.  In her mind, I didn't.  I vividly remember her confronting me about me being secret about that stuff and when I started telling her about what my plans were and what was going on, she put her hand up and said "don't tell me, it's none of my business.  You'll do it when you're ready to.  I'll be here for you when you are."  See how much of a paradox that was?  It was confusing and I told her.  She dismissed that by changing the topic (she said she wasn't going to discuss it anymore).  

Did I make mistakes with her along the way?  Yes.  But, I tried my best.  What still befuddles me is that we were so fine in September, to only have it crash in October... .out of the blue.  She still hasn't told me what had happened.  I have my theories, of course.  My wishy washy ness that you mention stems from the fact I still want to make it work with her, even though when I type my story I see just how ridiculous it is.  She has abused me, she has used me, she has thrown me away... .and yet, I can't help but still think that somewhere in that hot mess of J theres the girl who loves me and who I love and somehow we can get the crabby patty formula just right to make it work.

So yes, I often seem confused on whether or not I made the right decision.  Most of the time, I always felt like I was on thin ice with her.  I know now thats because I was.  J had M on the line this whole time, so I was constantly the primary and the fallback.  Plus, there were other interest in the wings.  I had felt their presence, like a Jedi feels a disturbance in the force, and that made me slow down with J.  That made me question things.  I was afraid of being hurt again by her (she knew this, we had discussed it).  When she would sense me slowing down (not pulling away, mind you... .I never ignored her or wouldn't see her or anything else, I just wouldn't go on and on about the future like she liked to hear me talk about).  I constantly reassured her that I wasn't going to leave.  Plus, I was dealing with the ending of my own marriage and I had made it clear that would be hard on me because of the lifestyle change (a la my child).

She said it was because I didn't trust her, even though she said directly that she had never given me a reason to, but that was no excuse to trust her (um, what?).  The other day she said to me "I don't know why I didn't trust you enough to tell you the truth," what she meant was about M.  She had point blank lied to me about that entire thing for the whole year, even though I was supportive about it (I was in a similar situation, so I wasn't upset about it).

So I guess to sum all that up: I wasn't ever hesitant about if I wanted J or not as a life partner.  I always knew thats what I wanted, I was just never fully sure if thats what she wanted.  The reason I wasn't ever sure was because she actually wasn't sure herself.  She had multiple irons in the fire, I was just part of the juggle.  I may have been at the top of that list from time to time, but I didn't stay there long at any given time.

Why Im running in place right now is because of the 'what if' mindset Im in.  What if it was just a perfect $hit storm of stuff that made it so up and down (her married, me married, my attitude at times, her attitude at times, and so on) that led to the downfall?  Why is she still so important to me, given the 'saga' I've written over just a single year with her?  Why do I want her to be happy, but I want that person she gets happiness from to be me?  Those are the types of questions I am on the search to answer.

I will not ever believe that the roses were 'forgotten'.  Sure, they could've been a surprise from her lover, but they were left on purpose.  There's not way you could've forgotten them as big as they were and they were prominently displayed where I would immediately see them.  You said it, I know J best, and I know J left them there on purpose.

Im sorry if I have seemed to ramble.  I'm just trying to convey why I may have seemed so wishy washy on "staying vs. leaving" (even though I knew I'd have to leave in the end).  That wasn't my intent.  I was more forced to leave than leaving on want, if that makes sense.

[Lonely_Astro]

I totally get the "someone else will benefit from my hard work" aspect of your frustration.

Consider it your gift to the world, not just her future partner, also know that DBT takes loads of time and commitment and that even if you graduate from it you can regress.

In the end, if you made the choice to be without her, you have to focus on you and let go of her.

Would you feel better if you found another person to really connect to and be friends with?

Would it be better if that person were a woman and you could date her?

Is this about her moving on and you being stuck here on these forums?

Maybe you should crank the NC up to waves and nods and courteous replies only. As for her flaunting flowers... .women do that. Clueless taught me that trick.

Would throwing yourself on something to obsess over be out of the question (WoW JuJiTzu... .)

For me, talking it out loud is a tremendous help.  I am seeing a T and her 'suggestion' is that I 'forget about the borderline and move forward'.  She has some exercises for me.  I have just started that path, so I am transitioning to letting go.  I just find myself stuck ruminating about what I could've done differently OR wanting to know why I didn't leave sooner OR why I even got involved again in the first place, knowing full well I risked this fate again.

I was doing ok up until the flowers.  Really, I was doing ok up until the coffee shop.  But the flowers set me back.  I am 100% certain they were left on purpose.

I am in the process of working on some creative endeavors that I have been interested in for awhile now.  Hopefully those are going to start getting underway soon and I can leave J in my rearview mirror again like I did 4 years ago. 

I am going to go to extreme NC from now on.  If I have to interact with her at work, it will be brief and to the point (and via email as much as possible).  If she asked me how I am or how my kids doing, I will just ignore the question.  Desperate times call for desperate measures.  After all, it's not like she really cares to know those answers, anyway.

[Learning Fast]

LA,

Your situation somewhat parallels many in the respect of simply wanting to know the truth.  Did J leave the roses intentionally? Did my ex text me (while with my replacement) from the location of one of most memorable weekends together intentionally?  Of course they did.  You'd have a better chance convincing me the earth is flat than to lead me to believe otherwise.  Why?  We feel it instinctually and have had too many past incidents which have proven to be questionable at best.  Lies are like mice in that there are rarely just one.  Interestingly I found the lies to be more numerous and profound the more distant I became in her life.  At the end she simply couldn't keep them all straight but it didn't matter as I was on the way to the outskirts of her universe.

LA, you couldn't have done anything differently.   The fact that she had you, M, B and R (I think I have this correct!) as plates spinning in the air concurrently is indicative of her relationship issues.  My ex has already moved on from my replacement to the next guy after about 6 mos.  And certainly there will be someone after that.  J will probably be no different.  The fact that you had the staying power to last longer than them is a testament to what you have to offer someone who you deserve.  Your T offers good counsel that should be followed.  The ruminations are a challenge but will lessen by reducing visuals/verbals.  I have my 2016 desk calendar at work where I manually cross off each day of NC to measure progress .

Take care of yourself first and foremost, LA.

LF