Off to visit the L

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's been a while, years, since my wife has chosen ST as the tactic. 

This morning was incredibly obvious about not talking to me and then being overly nice to pets and children.

She drove off to work and left her phone so she came back.  I asked her if she needed help with anything and she actually spoke and said "nope, just forgot my phone".

I stood by front door and wished her a good day, her words were "overly nice" as she wished me a good day too.  While she was speaking she turned away from me as she went out door, no peck, hug or any of that.

I feel like an observer to all this.  I actually chuckled to myself this morning that I was glad ST was here, much better than speaking with contempt in front of everyone.

Feels weird to be here again, getting things lined up with L, making sure things are protected etc etc.  I really thought we had moved past this.

Sigh.

FF

[formflier]

It's been a while, years, since my wife has chosen ST as the tactic. 

This morning was incredibly obvious about not talking to me and then being overly nice to pets and children.

She drove off to work and left her phone so she came back.  I asked her if she needed help with anything and she actually spoke and said "nope, just forgot my phone".

I stood by front door and wished her a good day, her words were "overly nice" as she wished me a good day too.  While she was speaking she turned away from me as she went out door, no peck, hug or any of that.

I feel like an observer to all this.  I actually chuckled to myself this morning that I was glad ST was here, much better than speaking with contempt in front of everyone.

Feels weird to be here again, getting things lined up with L, making sure things are protected etc etc.  I really thought we had moved past this.

Sigh.

FF

[Cole]

FF,

Been so busy I have been off the forum for last couple weeks, sorting through and catching up. Saw the L word, sounds like things are not going well. We were in this same place for about a year with the contempt, ST, and talking to lawyers. Prayers are with you, my friend. 

Is she feeling stressed from working full time? Or is there another issue causing the behavior?   

[formflier]

Is she feeling stressed from working full time? Or is there another issue causing the behavior?   

Thanks man.  Luckily, I'm staying calm, her tricks are tiring but aren't "working" on me as far as triggering and fear.

So, this evening we ate at 6pm.  We've done that on many nights.  I make dinner.  She did big thing on text about how do I get to decide that.  I said that would be great topic for private conversation, she said yes and private conversation with a lawyer.  My guess is a weird divorce threat.  I just stopped texting.

Then she comes in late for dinner, complaining that it is too late.  She had been at her parents house and went ahead and fed the little girls,   and then shooed them away from kitchen to roam the house while we ate.  She "preached" about being nice to people during dinner. 

Then tried to get a detailed list of everything I did today.  In her texts to me she said that she was working late.  I asked if it was a parent teacher conference, and she tried to sound ominous as she said "I had an appointment, "  Of course I was supposed to say "with who", but went on to another subject.

She tried to do a shaming thing asking how I could ask kids to help me clean the kitchen after dinner.  I said that was good topic for private conversation and she outright refused, "nope, it gets talked about in front of those it will affect"

So, I kept going with the kids cleaning up and eventually her preaching ran out of steam.

At some point she made big deal about walking around taking pictures of the house, my guess is to take pictures of the mess.

Sigh,

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

What do you think FF... .

Do you get the sense she is on some sort of 'secret mission' and her behavior is just a distraction and somewhat devaluation for her working on some 'plan?'

Or do you think this is her way of adjusting into new situation and roles and a result of external pressures on her?

(My gut wonders if she has decided something... .or is preparing for something... .and all the little gripes are just to reinforce her resolve to 'help' her stay on 'her course.'  Idk... .I just have seen similar with some that I know)

[formflier]

There is no telling.

My best guess is that she is back close to HER (thanks for correction) family and wants rid of me for "all the stuff" I have done over the years.  The stories keep shifting.

She can't toss over a guy who provided and served honorably and was faithful.  But if she can keep painting me as this bad guy then I am easier to cast aside.

I just asked her if we could go talk to coordinate some things and she said "nope, not a good idea until we get a counselor"  I asked if she could help me understand why that was not a good idea and she said "Anytime I try to talk to you, you walk away from me because you say I'm yelling or being unkind".  Then said or mumbled something about seeing what a counselor would say about that.

Note:  We are all signed up and on waiting list for the free biblical counseling.  I'm guessing a matter of weeks.

They take people in the order that they get on the waiting list.

Still processing what I heard at L today.  

FF

[formflier]

 

she likes to toss in these little "jabs" here and there.  Not sure why she sent this one so late, I got the text after dinner.  My guess is that it was her way of saying that she didn't like having leftovers for dinner one night.

Me: What time HM? 4:27 PM

FF wife: Will be there to eat at6, What r we having, hungry 4:27 PM

Me: Come early eat earlier 4:28 PM

Me: Grilling 4:28 PM

ff wife: What r u cooking? 4:28 PM

Me: Burgers dogs and other goodies 4:38 PM

ff wife: Wow! No leftovers? Super 6:47 PM

[Jessica84]

Are you sure it's being close to YOUR family?

This seems to be common behavior after being around HER family... .

Then she comes in late for dinner, complaining that it is too late.  She had been at her parents house and went ahead and fed the little girls,  and then shooed them away from kitchen to roam the house while we ate.  She "preached" about being nice to people during dinner. 

[formflier]

Are you sure it's being close to YOUR family?

Thanks for pointing out the error, I fixed it and had mistyped it the first time around.

My family is boring compared to hers.   Talk about something, agree on way forward, stick with plan, enjoy outcome.

I think we are at 4 or 5 generations of farmers that have conducted business in the area without a contract.  Talk, shake hands, do what you say, be fair to other people.  

It still boggles my mind that you can create your own reality and then take action on that.

Still processing the lawyer talk today, but here is the bit that is going to be entertaining.

We live in my Dad's house.  Long story but he wants to support us and his grandkids on the path to a healthier place.  

Well, the night she and her family came over to keep me up and police showed up my wife and her family was going along with it, making speeches about how this was there house and they could do what they want, that if I wanted quiet I would have to go elsewhere.  Furthermore they explained their reasoning to my Dad (the actual owner of house).  Since my wife's parents got a loan on an investment house (rental) that we have in a different state, that means that they get to say what happens in my Dad's house.     

Now, you also need to understand that I hadn't given my parents lots of details on my wife's issues or her family.  So my Dad kinda chuckled, said they were a curious lot of people.

Anyway, the fact that my wife resides here doesn't matter.  If her family comes over acting  up again, he can have them removed by police.  My wife would likely be a different story L was a little noncommittal on giving a definitive answer for getting her out immediately.

I suspect the noise and sleep tool has been put away because it was ineffective or she got bored with it.  But nice to know the lay of the land, legally speaking.

I also find it interesting that my wife is demanding that we draw up a "rent to own" contract with my Dad.  I suspect she has figured out she has no rights to the house and is trying to get some.

FF

[Jessica84]

Sorry FF. Didn't realize it was a typo. I thought you lived closer to your parents now as well, and that she didn't like their influence on you. I do think her parents could be influencing her, negatively.

[formflier]

Sorry FF. Didn't realize it was a typo. I thought you lived closer to your parents now as well, and that she didn't like their influence on you. I do think her parents could be influencing her, negatively.

Yeah, so, quick history.  We just moved from the small rural area that I grew up in.  We lived about a 5 minute drive from my parents down there and were about 8-9 hours from our current location where her parents and some other family live.  It's a much bigger metropolitan area with surrounding farmland.

I'm an only kid, so it's no shock that my parents are going to follow the grandkids.

My father has roots in this general area and owns some property (one of the properties he owns we are living in).

Our finances wouldn't allow us to purchase a home here so involving my Dad was a critical part.

Reasons for move:  Wife got job here, puts her closer to her family and that "support" (ok so that part didn't work out so well), and due to my disabled veteran status my kids get 120ish (I think exact number is 126) free credit hours at a state school.  This is a state benefit that is over and above VA.  I've got 8 kids, run the math.  Huge benefit to living here.

My Dad wants to see grandkids get good education, etc etc so he was all for supporting the move with this property

I hope that catches everyone up, it's a bit of a convoluted story.  There is also some "fairness" in there from the marriage point of view.  She followed me around the Navy for over 20 years and went and lived in my home town (I had a public figure job there for a while).  So, seemed like good compromise for me to follow her some to where she wanted to be. 

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm glad you got legal advice, FF. I'm wondering if you can be your dad's "agent" with the ability to have the police remove your in-laws from the house the next time they get unruly. Of course, that gets a bit sticky, but it seems your relationship with them is already iffy.

[patientandclear]

Hey FF.  With the caveat that I don't know what state you live in and landlord-tenant law can differ from state to state ... .in general, tenants have the right to invite whomever they want to the home they rent. Are you all paying anything to your dad?  If you are, and maybe even if you're not, your wife has the rights of a tenant just as you do, and I would be very skeptical of legal advice that the police will be able to come and remove guests she invited.  You and she have the same rights in the house.  You are married, your dad is letting you both live there.  There are rights attached, particularly if you are paying rent, and they pertain to both of you, not just you.  One of your rights as against your landlord (your dad) is that you decide who you want to come over.

I do hesitate to offer this because (i) again, relevant law can vary state to state; (ii) I can see the talk with the L may have comforted you and I hate to undermine any comfort; and (iii) I am not in an atty-client relationship with you & there may be facts that make a difference that I do not have.  But unless this person you consulted is an expert on landlord tenant law and police enforcement authority related to landlord tenant law, I would be skeptical.

[Notwendy]

I can't tell what is going on, but IMHO, this could be some long planned action. Your wife has been angry for a while, it seems. Now there has been a shift of power and your wife has the support of her family.

You too are also considering who has what, in a way. Your father owns the house. Your wife may fear you pulling the house strings on her, not that you would, but you could.

This is all very strange. You mentioned she can't toss you out, having been a good husband, but she can make a case for it- taking pictures, trying to get a lease to own agreement ( making her part owner).

I am not a lawyer, but I wonder if it is better for you to not pay any money to your dad until this is settled, if there is a possibility of joint ownership/rental.

[formflier]

I'm glad you got legal advice, FF. I'm wondering if you can be your dad's "agent" with the ability to have the police remove your in-laws from the house the next time they get unruly. Of course, that gets a bit sticky, but it seems your relationship with them is already iffy.

Great idea.  Maybe a power of attorney or something like that. 

That is a wonderful question,

FF

[formflier]

But unless this person you consulted is an expert on landlord tenant law and police enforcement authority related to landlord tenant law, I would be skeptical.

I do understand this, and the "devil" may be in the particulars.

Certainly before I do anything else or try to attempt anything along these lines, it will require more careful review extra opinions, etc etc.

FF

[formflier]

I am not a lawyer, but I wonder if it is better for you to not pay any money to your dad until this is settled, if there is a possibility of joint ownership/rental.

Another great follow up question.  Something to not get wrong, if indeed it matters.

FF

[formflier]

 

So, the battle lines are clearly drawn over control of the kids.

Few days ago she announced she was being late for her job and needed to drop of kids at bus and then get on her way.  Note:  I can't see how this helps from a time distance point of view.

check out this text I just got.  Repeating that she is a better parent with me not around.  Restating this "fact" that she is better with me not around.  (big text, not sure how that works)

ff wife: ff (she addresses me by name), You just started the van and put James in it without speaking to me about it and came and told me that you would be taking them to the bus stop this morning and somehow you believe that is OK but when I say that I would like to take them to the bus stop because that way I can just drop them off and then keep on driving to work so that I will not be late somehow that is me being a dictator you take S15 and S13 to the bus stop every morning a good compromise is that I drop S7 and D10 off it's maybe 2 or 3 minutes of sitting a vehicle together if it is important to you why can it not also be important to me you are unstable I cannot speak to you because whenever I try you lie and say that I was being disrespectful or mean or yelling I am a better person and a better parent when you are not around we need to see a counselor and we need to seriously discuss our options 7:31 AM

Me: I will offer compromise of you dropping them off 3 days a week and I will drop them off 2 days per week. Which three days would you like to pick? 7:33 AM


Note:  I have the conversation recorded.  I came in the house and said

ff:  "I'd like to drop off S7 and D10 at the bus stop this morning"

ff wife:  "That's ok I will do it"

ff:  "This could help you get on down the road and not be late for work"

ff wife:  "no I want to do it"

Then there was a lovely talk at the van as she ordered James out to get in her vehicle.  I asked for a private conversation she said no that I was being unreasonable.  She claimed she has never refused a conversation and we need to talk to a counselor to sort this out.  I said well, let's get one and go talk, she said it's not up to her we have to wait.

I said in the meantime it doesn't work for you to be the dictator and decide everything, she said I was the dictator.

Note:  My tone was respectful but firm, perhaps assertive would be better.  It was under control.

FF

[formflier]

 

ff wife: No 7:47 AM


ff wife: You get to take s13 5 days a week and s15 5 days a week I am driving away in this vehicle anyway on my way to work the compromise is that I drop James and Susie off on my way not only because that is reasonable because I am already driving away too much because I am the one working everyday right now while you are supposed to be looking for a job you have time with them after school before I get home 7:48 AM

ff wife: This is why we do not talk without a moderator you are completely unreasonable and unstable the children are telling me they are afraid of you again 7:49 AM

ff wife: You did not listen to me last time things begin escalating you are supposed to listen to me when I tell you that you are not OK if you refuse to do that I cannot make you but that is what you said you would do if we allow you back in the house with us 7:49 AM

ff wife: Please think about this carefully and pray about this I know I have been 7:50 AM

Me: I will be happy to listen to a respectful conversation following the rules of communication that we have learned at many counselors 7:51 AM

ff wife: Like I said I cannot force you to listen to me when you do not like what I am saying but you are on the same path you were on last time that led to you calling social services and social services removing you from our home 7:52 AM

ff wife: I am praying for you ff (addresses me by name) I'm praying for us God will not let this continue forever 7:53 AM


So, one of us is off the rails.  Note:  What happened last time ss got involved was a voluntary agreement was signed that said I would live somewhere else and we would go to counseling and "comply" with out counselors.

I of course wanted to live in house and kick her out, that was not going to happen.  She had coached the kids (I have recording) that if they "didn't tell the truth about me that I was bad" that ss would take them away from mom.

The pisser was that ss refused to listen to anything.  They only wanted to interview kids.

My best guess is that it is time to "get even" over the SS thing or whatever other sins I have committed

FF

[flourdust]

Can you arrange for a marriage counselor yourself? I know your wife insists on using this "biblical counselor" (whatever that is), with no determined meeting date because there's a waiting list.

What if you just find a reputable, licensed marriage counselor -- one with a background in mental health, regardless of religious orientation -- and make an appointment. Tell your wife that you are so concerned about how bad things are getting and can't wait for the other counselor to be free. Make an appointment, and it's your wife's choice if she goes or not.

[formflier]

Make an appointment, and it's your wife's choice if she goes or not.

That's a good strategy.  She is adamant she won't go to anyone else, but thinking about the "rules" for dealing with pwBPD it would be better to look at her actions than to look at her words.

In other words, I should "call her bluff" or let her show her cards. 

Not that I plan on bringing up recordings in counseling, but she has repeatedly said that she won't go and also that we will not have a conversation until there is a moderator/counselor in the room.

FF

[flourdust]

Make an appointment, and it's your wife's choice if she goes or not.

That's a good strategy.  She is adamant she won't go to anyone else, but thinking about the "rules" for dealing with pwBPD it would be better to look at her actions than to look at her words.

In other words, I should "call her bluff" or let her show her cards. 

Not that I plan on bringing up recordings in counseling, but she has repeatedly said that she won't go and also that we will not have a conversation until there is a moderator/counselor in the room.

I'd go ahead and schedule it and invite her to go. Make arrangements for the kids to be covered. You can even assure her that you'll still meet with the biblical counselor (whenever that person becomes available), but in the meantime, you have this appointment set up.

[formflier]

And now I am off to my first in person visit with my new T.

One talk on phone, seem to like him so far.

FF

[Fian]

So did the lawyer suggest any steps you should take to prevent your wife smearing you or trying to take the kids away?

[empath]

Do you have concrete confirmation that you are actually on the waitlist for the biblical counselor? Also, what are the counselor's credentials? I have a bit of knowledge about that area.

[formflier]

Do you have concrete confirmation that you are actually on the waitlist for the biblical counselor? Also, what are the counselor's credentials? I have a bit of knowledge about that area.

Yes, I have spoken with the scheduler directly.  They go in order of what they came in.  No promises but "weeks".

The place we are going is well known in the NANC world.  One of their biggest training centers.  There will be a counselor and several observers in the room.

To make it even more interesting, I was one step away, years ago from finishing my NANC training and preparing for the exams.  If you guys remember, I'm fairly conservative Christian guy.  Oddly enough, my experience with a lot of this training left me feeling a bit on the "liberal" side of things in "conservative" circles.  My wife was one training cycle behind me.  We have done biblical counseling before and have a fairly good background in it ourselves.

So, the knowledge is there.  Likelihood that she will have a lightbulb moment and say "Oh, God wants my husband to be the head of the household and unless he asks me to sin, I should follow his lead" is about zero.  She knows what the scripture says and will reject it when it doesn't suit her.  Actually it is more like an extreme twisting of scripture vice rejecting.

The other funny verses are when it talks about not judging people and letting God handle things vice humans.  She gets all kinda wiggly when presented with that.  Many, many, many, hmm, let's say all of the Biblical counsel that she has received has said  that if your husband really is having all these affairs and thoughts about other women, that she is not the judge and jury and she should "Let go and Let GOD handle it"

Yeah, she didn't let go.

There may be another angle to this, now that I think about it.  When I say I am a liberal in conservative circles, there are certain dogmas or beliefs that I'm not onboard with and will not get talked into.  Wife knew this before we got married, has been stable since then, pretty much.

1.  Role of women.  I have listened to many women preach and have no problem with the ordination of women.  I believe that the letters from Paul were to specific churches with specific problems.  I don't believe they restrict the way we worship today.  I also think it is funny to engage churches that will restrict women from preaching but then they won't try to enforce so of the other "restrictions" on women about dress and other things (it's been a while since I studied it so being vague there)

Basically, I don't think that God would restrict someone's form of worship based on something they can't control.  Women had no choice in being women and I think if they are called to ministry, they should follow that call.

Anyway, I could see them trying to pin me down on my beliefs, wife saying I'm a heretic and therefore can be tossed over or she doesn't have to "obey" me since I don't believe properly.  She has said as much several times before.

Note:  For 15 years we really had a healthy marriage and religious life together, IMO.  The last 5 have been sketchy wihich mirror the emergence of BPDish behavior.

FF

[empath]

Sounds like you know how it usually goes; independent confirmation is good. My husband is also very well-versed in scripture, but of course, usually picks the ones that suit his purposes. He likes to call me sinful or whatever I'm doing that is bothering him is sinful. It combines with the black and white thinking really easily. However, it isn't okay for me to call out his sin because he feels ashamed and attacks.

The thing is that Scripture never condones abuse -- and rather specifically instructs us to 'not associate' with verbal abusers. That's something that I've been really struggling with lately because it will trigger the abandonment fears. But at the same time, Scripture is Scripture and regardless of one's mental or physical issues, we are to follow it.

The heresy route would probably be one of the ways to 'paint you black'. The way that the role of women is construed in most 'traditional marriage' churches can lead to the idea of heresy. Sometimes, it is tied to the doctrine of the Trinity, specifically the role of Jesus in the Godhead, and then the salvation of one who believes something different comes into play. If you don't have orthodox beliefs, you could be considered an unbeliever, then those other verses kick in.

I've been called on that one myself, not quite to the charge of heresy, but on my views of the role of women, and specifically my role.

It's difficult but not impossible to refute that kind of belief; it just takes more than throwing Bible verses at it.

The other thing that could come up is 'not providing' for the family. That brings me to another point... .Questioning a person's salvation based on things that are not essential to the faith is spiritual abuse.

One of the other things that I've been working on is that I'm only responsible to God for myself and my responses. The whole letting God work through the Holy Spirit. If they decide to do something to 'get rid' of their problem (us); we can't really stop them. I'm only responsible to love them and sometimes love is speaking the truth and following through with tough consequences when God directs.

Hang in there and hold tight.

[formflier]

Empath,

Good stuff.  I like these kinds of conversations.  So, the church we were attending when we got flooded out and BPD stuff took off was a very conservative brand of Baptist (Regular Baptist).  Also, that was the first place I ever lived where when I mentioned I was Baptist people looked at me like I was in a cult (that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much). 

I grew up firmly in the south.  In the county I grew up in there are 57 baptist churches, 1 methodist, 1 catholic, 1 presbyterian (you get the picture).  So, the whole thing of full immersion was no big deal to me, it was normal.

Anyway, I totally get how the Baptists that are out in the hinterlands, where Baptist is "odd" can get kinda "firm" in their beliefs.  It was odd to live in a place with blatant scriptural error all over the  place.  I joke that even the non-believers in my town know that Jesus is the way to heaven. 

Well, there was a lot of black and white thinking in that church, with the flood, talk of judgment, lots of stress, my wife's views really got conservative.  I didn't change much, she didn't like it. 

My big picture views have been same since early 20s.  Saved since 10 years old.

More later

FF

[Fian]

One thing to consider.  My wife and I are also Christians and we do believe in the authority of the husband.  However, if I ever use the authority, I am being a dictator and being bad.  So I have tried a different argument with her.  Even if we are equal in authority, she can't make unilateral decisions without my buy-in (and for that matter vice-versa).  If I don't agree with her plan of action, and she does it anyway, she is the one being the dictator.  Your wife appears to want to make a lot of unilateral decisions.  You might want to try that argument if you think it would help.

[formflier]

  Your wife appears to want to make a lot of unilateral decisions.  You might want to try that argument if you think it would help.

She actually does make lots of unilateral decisions and is very adept at sidestepping those types of questions.  She wouldn't have had to make a unilateral decision if I had made the right one in the first place,

Oh, and poof, the other wife is back.

Just had a relaxed conversation with her about what she is looking for in churches, what I am looking for.  Did not try to pin her down on where we are going on Sunday, but that was a completely normal conversation and sharing of ideas, feelings thoughts,

There was some weird texting about dinner.  I made it, only 3 people including me where here to eat it.  I was ready at the time she asked, she seemed really apologetic about not being there (via text) and then was vague about having a long conversation with a coworker as reason for being late.  Said she would be here in 20 minutes and showed up an hour later with rest of kids.

But seemed normal when she got home.

Sigh,

FF

[formflier]

 

We'll see which wife wakes up this morning.

Turns out D10 has strep throat, pretty bad.  We've put her in quarantine over at my wife's parents house.  Trying to disinfect things over here.  Fun meter pegged.

FF