Hello, Narcissus is my middle name

[blackbirdsong]

Hi,

After the breakup with my dBPDgf, I started therapy.

First, I expressed the main reason as I am emotionally devastated after this r/s.

Also, what is important for the whole story (as my therapist says) is the fact that I ended the r/s.

Soon after the breakup I started (really obsessively) learning about BPD. I noticed that those 'fatal' BPD relationships are often sign that you partner has BPD or severe BPD traits. But this is not the end of story. As we often discussed here - usually the other partner shows narcissistic traits.

Soon after the therapy started, I took really extensive personality testing with one of the main experts in this domain in my country. The tests show that I have narcissistic traits.

Codependency is also something that is part of this personality. I also use some 'unhealthy' mechanisms for emotional defense.

I know that we often discuss whether BPD persons are the only one to blame for 'victimizing us'.

My post today is just a friendly note that you consider also this possibility. You can also try to take this personality testing and see what is the result.

Even if it is not showing narcissistic personality, it is useful to gain more detailed description of your personality. We can all work on our inner self.

The person who rejects with disgust that something is wrong with them most likely show narc traits. Actually, more severely. :D

This is one of the reasons why narcissism is so hard to observe in therapy. Because severe narcissistic persons (like real NPD) usually don't find anything wrong in their behavior.

Just consider this: BPD is much more easily treatable than NPD. Imagine that. Imagine all horror stories here about BPD, and now consider that NPD is worse.

So, at least I know now. I can start working on myself. I already started actually.

Like I said, I started therapy.

Doing metta meditation.

Learning mindfulness mechanisms.

Slow steps, but I believe that they will show results. At least science articles say that. 

That might not be the case with you, but now I see that there was 50%-50% responsibility for our stormy r/s. Yes, she hurt me. But I hurt her also.

Now I am considering to contact her and talk about this. I find her as someone who actually provided my a new "point of view". She jumped in my life, crashed many phony walls that I have build, and now I can try to build a solid ones. I know that she is also confused what happened, why I have left, and I would like to talk with her about this.

We are young, late 20's, we still have plenty of time to build solid walls. I hope it can help her also.  What do you think? Is this a smart or bad idea?

[fromheeltoheal]

Good for you BBS, you're shifting the focus from her to you and seeing the gifts of a relationship with a borderline, very nice!

What do you think? Is this a smart or bad idea?

It's up to you.  It's best to get very clear on what your goals are going in and honest with yourself about your ability to stay grounded when interacting with her.  If you feel guilt about some of your actions talking to her about it is one way to deal with it, although there are others, and also you can expect the unexpected when interacting with someone with a personality disorder, so best to have very low expectations going in.

[Fr4nz]

Well', it's not the end of the world to have borderline or narcissistic traits

I also discovered, during therapy, that I possess borderline and narcissistic (actually, the "shy" variant) traits, even if I'm a non, overall.

For what is related to me, borderline traits come out more within the context of a relationship, while narcissistic ones come out more in the context of jobs; in any case, the two components mix togheter (and in a very original way, I'd say :P).

Overall, the real, huge gift of these "dysfunctional" relationships is that they force you to look into yourself, in order to understand which are your "good" and "bad" sides, and work on the "bad" ones (basically, your false self) to improve your personality and the quality of your life

[blackbirdsong]

Good for you BBS, you're shifting the focus from her to you and seeing the gifts of a relationship with a borderline, very nice!

Hi,

thank you.

But there is additional problem now. Just this fact, that the problem is now mine is actually the scary part.

You know, you always have defense mechanism: "It is BPD thing, I am hurt, will be better after some time... ."

Now I realize that there is so much hard work in front of me, I really need to build those walls from the scratch.

I need to solve those primitive defense mechanisms.

I studied a lot about BPD, and I know pretty much how this thing works, I am just now aware that I need to do similar work.

I just have to radically accept that some things in me need changing... .

The things that we are discussing about our borderline partners, to fight internal battle every day.

Also, during my previous topic discussions I pointed out that my exBPDgf is very self-aware. She is in therapy and working on her issues.

Now, when I realized this fact about my personality, something is pulling me even closer to her... .

Like, I have a feeling: "She really understands how I feel. I did a lot of 'primitive and unhealthy' things. At the end, I left her. She wanted to stick with me. Should I go back and try again with this knowledge and insight?"

Is this crazy-thinking?    

Can two persons like this, with knowledge about themselves, make something meaningful or is it like two blind persons trying to find a road together?

[fromheeltoheal]

Now, when I realized this fact about my personality, something is pulling me even closer to her... .

Like, I have a feeling: "She really understands how I feel. I did a lot of 'primitive and unhealthy' things. At the end, I left her. She wanted to stick with me. Should I go back and try again with this knowledge and insight?"

Is this crazy-thinking?    

Can two persons like this, with knowledge about themselves, make something meaningful or is it like two blind persons trying to find a road together?

Not necessarily crazy thinking BBS, but better to process it all the way before you act on anything.  You left her for a reason, or reasons, and the pain of all of it drove you here and into therapy, you're processing, learning, growing, and an improved, more aware version of you is emerging, what you do with that moving forward is up to you.

A relationship with a borderline is like any other in a lot of ways: if you both decide you want to be together, then be together.  But look very closely at your motivations, like if you're trying to 'fix' her or rescue her, or if you're trying to turn to her for rescuing, since she knows the 'primitive and unhealthy' things you did and still wanted to be with you.  Or now that you're both getting more self aware, you can laugh at your dysfunction together?  I don't know, whatever your reasons, and as you've read here countless times, a relationship with a borderline is a challenge and a lot of work for anyone, even in the best of circumstances, just go read some Staying board for examples.  I'd recommend you stay on your current path and get your feet under you a little longer before you make any decisions, and fill your life up with other people just for the interaction, who know what version of BBS will show up in the future!  Take care of you!

[jasonb]

Dont we all have narcissistic traits?

[Sunfl0wer]

Dont we all have narcissistic traits?

The irony just occured to me... .

One of the most narcissistic thoughts/behaviors I had in the past 6 years was... .

... .that I could make it work with him and all he brought into the relationship.

[eeks]

I need to solve those primitive defense mechanisms.

Hi blackbirdsong,

You refer to "primitive defense mechanisms", "primitive and unhealthy", "fighting an internal battle every day"... .do you have any specific examples?  It seems to me that it would be hard to change something you're not aware of.

What I mean by that is, what words, emotions or behaviours in your ex would provoke strong emotions/reactions in you?  What emotions were they (e.g. anger, shame)?  And how did you usually respond in those moments?  And what was the outcome?

eeks

[jc1010]

i know what you mean. I see these codependent and some narcissistic traits in myself too. I just unblocked her number  which i have only had blocked for four days because i have so much anger in me right now and i dont want to come off as weak.  I feel like she would look at it as like 'he really is still missing me if he had to block my number.' And i also feel like that would boost her up which i dont want. Maybe im just being paranoid and overanalyzing but is it narcissistic to think like this? I have so much anger going through me. I didnt want to be in the relationship from the jump, but i did caused we were best friends and i became so fckin attatched. I got anger man.  Lol i do miss her but i dont want her to know that. I want to see her hit me up and me purposely delete the text/voicemail whatever immediately. I think it would make me feel better... .narcissistic idk maybe but idk what tf to do, i dont want to come off as weak to this infant who i was there for all that time, and now shes no where to be found, fck her man- got hate in my veins right now.

[blackbirdsong]

Dont we all have narcissistic traits?

Yes, we have. Actually, some of these traits are necessary in order to have 'successful life', not being defined as emotionally unstable personality.

The problem is when those narcissistic traits become more intensive as a consequence of your poor emotional development.

The those narcissistic traits become 'unhealthy' defense mechanisms.

Hi blackbirdsong,

You refer to "primitive defense mechanisms", "primitive and unhealthy", "fighting an internal battle every day"... .do you have any specific examples?  It seems to me that it would be hard to change something you're not aware of.

What I mean by that is, what words, emotions or behaviours in your ex would provoke strong emotions/reactions in you?  What emotions were they (e.g. anger, shame)?  And how did you usually respond in those moments?  And what was the outcome?

eeks

Hi,

yes, of course - first you need to know what those traits are. This is something that personality test showed in my case. For example, I often use intellectualization (Intellectualization is a 'flight into reason', where the person avoids uncomfortable emotions by focusing on facts and logic. The situation is treated as an interesting problem that engages the person on a rational basis, whilst the emotional aspects are completely ignored as being irrelevant.) and repression (The process of attempting to repel desires towards pleasurable instincts, caused by a threat of suffering if the desire is satisfied; the desire is moved to the unconscious in the attempt to prevent it from entering consciousness) as defense mechanisms due to my FOO issues. And to be clear, I wasn't raised in some 'domestic violence' type of family. But there were, in some level, unhealthy patterns that provoke these mechanisms in my personality. This is one of the reasons why I am giving you a friendly advice to consider it as a possibility to recheck your issues.

i know what you mean. I see these codependent and some narcissistic traits in myself too. I just unblocked her number  which i have only had blocked for four days because i have so much anger in me right now and i dont want to come off as weak.  I feel like she would look at it as like 'he really is still missing me if he had to block my number.' And i also feel like that would boost her up which i dont want. Maybe im just being paranoid and overanalyzing but is it narcissistic to think like this? I have so much anger going through me. I didnt want to be in the relationship from the jump, but i did caused we were best friends and i became so fckin attatched. I got anger man.  Lol i do miss her but i dont want her to know that. I want to see her hit me up and me purposely delete the text/voicemail whatever immediately. I think it would make me feel better... .narcissistic idk maybe but idk what tf to do, i dont want to come off as weak to this infant who i was there for all that time, and now shes no where to be found, fck her man- got hate in my veins right now.

To be honest, your description of your feelings is 'unhealthy'. Unhealthy for you. You need to switch your healing perspective considering how do you feel and how to improve this. Don't think about her now and what she feels and how does she see your blocking/unblocking action.

[C.Stein]

BBS,

I believe we all have some traits of personality disorders (perhaps all of them), which is likely necessary to have a personality to begin with.  I believe it is important to note the distinction here between those of us who control our "traits" and those who are controlled by their "traits".   

Consider the saying "you bring out the worst in me".  This I believe is when one person behavior/actions causes another person to lose control of their negative traits.   Who's to blame here?   I believe both are to blame, but I don't feel it is 50/50. 

[blackbirdsong]

BBS,

I believe we all have some traits of personality disorders (perhaps all of them), which is likely necessary to have a personality to begin with.  I believe it is important to note the distinction here between those of us who control our "traits" and those who are controlled by their "traits".   

Consider the saying "you bring out the worst in me".  This I believe is when one person behavior/actions causes another person to lose control of their negative traits.   Who's to blame here?   I believe both are to blame, but I don't feel it is 50/50. 

My view:

It is 50:50 for entering the relationship.

It is 50:50 for staying in the relationship during idealization.

It is 50:50 for staying in the relationship during devaluation.

Who's to blame? I consider this as faulty question.

To me, the right question is What, not Who.

I blame BPD and I blame my narcissistic traits. I blame 'errors' in our emotional development.

I don't blame her.

I don't blame myself.

How can I blame her for something that formed her personality during her childhood? For something that she recognized and is trying to improve in therapy.

How can I blame myself for my FOO issues?

I can't. Actually, I respect her even more now because she recognized this, took responsibility and tries to improve. And no, you cannot make BPD to disapear in short period. She is aware of that. She is trying. But she is aware that she will hurt a lot more people, not just in a relationship. And this is really scary thing... .To wake every morning and to know that some disease in you controls you and pushes people away. You take responsibility, you fight the war, but you know in advance that you will loose many battles... .

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey BBS-

Who's to blame? I consider this as faulty question.

To me, the right question is What, not Who.

I blame BPD and I blame my narcissistic traits. I blame 'errors' in our emotional development.

I don't blame her.

I don't blame myself.

How can I blame her for something that formed her personality during her childhood? For something that she recognized and is trying to improve in therapy.

It's not her fault she has a personality disorder, but her behaviors are still her responsibility.  It sounds like she's taking a proactive approach and assuming that responsibility, which is a good thing.

How can I blame myself for my FOO issues?

You can't, but how you're living today is your responsibility too.  Lots of folks use that as a cop-out too: "well, it's just the way I was raised".  You don't sound like you're doing that, but something to be aware of.

I can't. Actually, I respect her even more now because she recognized this, took responsibility and tries to improve. And no, you cannot make BPD to disapear in short period. She is aware of that. She is trying. But she is aware that she will hurt a lot more people, not just in a relationship. And this is really scary thing... .To wake every morning and to know that some disease in you controls you and pushes people away. You take responsibility, you fight the war, but you know in advance that you will loose many battles... .

She sounds pretty aware and responsible BBS.  BTW, BPD will never disappear, it's hardwired into a borderline's personality, but she can learn to deal with the intense emotions and learn to self soothe.  Have you wondered how much of this is genuine respect and admiration for her and how much is you seeing what you want to see now that you're out?

[eeks]

yes, of course - first you need to know what those traits are. This is something that personality test showed in my case. For example, I often use intellectualization (Intellectualization is a 'flight into reason', where the person avoids uncomfortable emotions by focusing on facts and logic. The situation is treated as an interesting problem that engages the person on a rational basis, whilst the emotional aspects are completely ignored as being irrelevant.)

So the personality test showed these traits.  :)o you agree?  When you heard these results, could you identify examples from your life (conversations, relationships) where you intellectualized?

And if so, which uncomfortable emotions might you be trying to avoid?  

and repression (The process of attempting to repel desires towards pleasurable instincts, caused by a threat of suffering if the desire is satisfied; the desire is moved to the unconscious in the attempt to prevent it from entering consciousness)

What do you desire, that you repress the desire for?

[blackbirdsong]

Hey BBS-

Who's to blame? I consider this as faulty question.

To me, the right question is What, not Who.

I blame BPD and I blame my narcissistic traits. I blame 'errors' in our emotional development.

I don't blame her.

I don't blame myself.

How can I blame her for something that formed her personality during her childhood? For something that she recognized and is trying to improve in therapy.

It's not her fault she has a personality disorder, but her behaviors are still her responsibility.  It sounds like she's taking a proactive approach and assuming that responsibility, which is a good thing.

How can I blame myself for my FOO issues?

You can't, but how you're living today is your responsibility too.  Lots of folks use that as a cop-out too: "well, it's just the way I was raised".  You don't sound like you're doing that, but something to be aware of.

I can't. Actually, I respect her even more now because she recognized this, took responsibility and tries to improve. And no, you cannot make BPD to disapear in short period. She is aware of that. She is trying. But she is aware that she will hurt a lot more people, not just in a relationship. And this is really scary thing... .To wake every morning and to know that some disease in you controls you and pushes people away. You take responsibility, you fight the war, but you know in advance that you will loose many battles... .

She sounds pretty aware and responsible BBS.  BTW, BPD will never disappear, it's hardwired into a borderline's personality, but she can learn to deal with the intense emotions and learn to self soothe.  Have you wondered how much of this is genuine respect and admiration for her and how much is you seeing what you want to see now that you're out?

Hey fromheeltoheal,

thank you for your comments.

I completely agree with you. No person did actually choose PD. But yes, we are responsible for our behavior.

If it is not 'right', we need to improve it. My statement was going in this direction: Someone can be aware of BPD. Someone can feel responsible for his behavior. But sometimes, BPD will win, and your behavior will be unacceptable. You are still responsible for it. But sometimes you cannot control impulsive behavior. Because BPD does that job. This is the main problem from my perspective. This is the internal fight every day

Have you wondered how much of this is genuine respect and admiration for her and how much is you seeing what you want to see now that you're out?



Yes, I am asking this question in one-minute interval, last few days

Don't know.

I left, but I still have strong feelings for her. And they are changed, comparing before the breakup, cannot actually define them, but I feel that they are changing.

She wants recycle, part of me also wants it. But larger part of me says, that under the current conditions, considering her and my emotional state, not much of our behavior is going to change... .We have good foundations to work with our issues, this is current my vision. Something else/more is currently out of my scope... .

But who knows what will tomorrow bring to me, just read the stories on this board

Everyone has its own story, but the concept is the same

[C.Stein]

Who's to blame? I consider this as faulty question.

To me, the right question is What, not Who.

I blame BPD and I blame my narcissistic traits. I blame 'errors' in our emotional development.

I don't blame her.

I don't blame myself.

How can I blame her for something that formed her personality during her childhood? For something that she recognized and is trying to improve in therapy.

How can I blame myself for my FOO issues?

You brought up blame in your initial post so I thought it appropriate to address it.  No one should blame a person for having a PD and this was not what I was suggesting in my post.

I think you are treading dangerous ground here with respect to blaming the traits or disorders.  I think the tendency to "blame" the disorder or the traits is a shifting of responsibility of actions/behavior (I did it because of my FOO issues, or my BPD, or my other PD traits).   Until you can own and take complete responsibility for your actions/behavior you will never move forward with respect to personal growth IMO.   How can you own your actions/behavior ... .by understanding what drives them.  This comes from knowing your negative traits, knowing and being able to identify what triggers them and how they impact your actions/behavior.  With this knowledge comes the ability to affect positive change within yourself.

Some PD driven behavior may be uncontrollable but I don't believe this is the case with BPD (barring comorbid disorders).   Successful treatment is based on learning to manage and control the damaging behavior that is impacted by the disorder.  If it were truly "uncontrollable" then medication might be an effective treatment option, however it is not.  I am sure through your research you have read that BPD behavior is primarily learned behavior which means it can be largely unlearned.   This is why DBT can be successful if the person is capable of being honest with themselves and committed to positive change.  

I do understand where you are coming from BBS.  I want to "blame" BPD for all the hurtful things my ex has done to me because the alternative means she is just a bad person which I can't and don't want to believe.  However if I am honest with myself and look at the relationship objectively I absolutely can not "blame" BPD for her hurtful behavior either.  I can see how it might explain why she behaved in certain ways at times, and yes, sometimes that behavior was likely driven entirely by the disorder and at that moment in time uncontrollable (assuming she suffers from it) .  However even though this may be true it will never excuse the hurtful behavior and actions.  This is especially true when the behavior was a long drawn out ongoing decision.  When a person feels the need to lie and/or cover up their actions/behavior (ex. an affair) then that person knows what they are doing is wrong, PD impacted or not.

The blame game will never lead to positive growth but neither will a refusal to see things as they truly are.