Help with NPD mother?

[steelwork]

Hi,

My mother is a very strange woman indeed. It's taken five decades for me to feel like I have perspective on the problems in our relationship. She does not show BPD traits, though. I think her weirdness would best be described as covert or inverted narcissism and some kind of autistic spectrum condition. Is anyone aware of a resource like bpdfamily.com for NPD? Or high-functioning autism, for that matter?

I hope this isn't an inappropriate place to ask for suggestions.

Steelwork

[Turkish]

Nope. This is the board.

What led you to believe NPD? We do have members here with NPD parents as well.

[steelwork]

Nope. This is the board.

What led you to believe NPD? We do have members here with NPD parents as well.

It's hard to know where to start. I guess mostly it's the way she dealt with me as a child, and her lack of perspective on it now... .inability to grasp that what happened between us happened to me as well as her. Also the way she has turned on me in recent years.

Here is some background. I'm the youngest of four. My parents split when I was 2, my siblings 4 8 and 11. Things were very chaotic. My mother and I moved 8 times across three states in the first 6 months of their separation, with some combination of the other kids along for the ride, and then settled back in the town where my dad was. Custody was fluid, but essentially I was always with my mother--sometimes with one or more of my brothers. My mother refused child support or spousal support, so we were poor and she was very overworked. I felt awfully sad for her when I was a kid. I tried to be as helpful as possible. She also was withdrawn and depressed.

So then when I was 10, for reasons too complicated to relate, she decided to move to Canada and live in an abandoned farmhouse with a drunk with whom she had nothing in common. She wanted to become a farmer, and he would be her partner in this venture. So she left me with my dad. I'd never lived with anyone but her. We visited the farm in the summer. Her new boyfriend plainly disliked me (not my brother, just me), but I said I wanted to move up there anyhow because I missed my mom. I lived there for two years. I won't go into it, but it was very very hard. (She married the guy.)

Then when I was 12 I was visiting my aunt and cousins, and I decided I liked it there better, so I stayed. I was with them for a year and a half until my father (back in my hometown, where I'd not lived for 3.5 years at this point) became ill. I and my siblings all moved back to nurse him. My mother stayed in Canada and visited us occasionally, for periods of a few weeks to a month or so, but really she was never a custodial parent after I was 12. My dad died when I was not quite 15, and after that I lived with my siblings until I left home at not quite 17. My mother divorced the guy in Canada and moved to Jamaica for a few years, then back to my hometown.

I know this is a lot of confusing detail, and I haven't even gotten to the NPD part. The relevant thing is that once Mom and I were back living in the same town we had a nice enough relationship, though she is a difficult and eccentric person. Just not a mother-daughter relationship.

There's just always been something off about us. She has not seemed like a mother since I was 12. She has never showed any pride in any of my accomplishments. If someone wrongs me, she pretty much always takes their side, even if she doesn't know any of the details.

In my 20s I started having a recurring dream in which she breaks up with me. She says she feels our relationship has run its course.

Everyone knows her as an extraordinarily giving, altruistic, self-sacrificing person. She is. But there is no sentiment behind it--only a sense of pragmatic justice. It's actually, if you look close, grandiose how she helps people. She gets angry and resentful if you try to take away any of her duties. (She's an old lady now.)

She offers me material assistance all the time. But not love. She never said she loved me, or that she was proud of me. She jabs at me passive-aggressively. Targets me. My other siblings don't get it as bad as I do.

I'm sorry. This is rambly. But I think she has particularly fraught feelings about me because I'm the one who lived with her the most. I was her mirror, and I stayed with her through thick and thin until I didn't. Then I left her. She describes the time I moved in with my aunt (when I was 12) as me abandoning her. But she doesn't consider that there's anything wrong with having made me chase her up to Canada and live with no electricity or plumbing in a drafty farmhouse heated by a wood stove with a drunk who hated me.

She continues to harbor hurt feelings that her children didn't let her help out more when our father was dying. She says we made her feel unwanted. I frankly don't even remember her being around as much as she apparently was. I had long stopped relying on her, so I just basically saw her as a visiting relative.

Her explanation for how I was raised is that I was a very wise child and I knew my own mind. She has said to me many times that she felt she knew her own mind when she was a child, and that's why she let me make all my own decisions. She will not concede that I was in any way less capable than her because I was a child. She will not acknowledge that I was dependent on her for food and shelter and therefore was in my childlike way trying to keep her happy by being the self-sufficient kid she wanted.

Blah blah. All this is too much detail. I just think a lot of this only makes sense if you view her as having some degree of NPD. All injuries are to her.

She can't see my point of view or take my part just because I'm her kid. I actually put it to her like that a little while ago, when she was taking someone's side over me. Not actively, but passively... .by continuing to offer help to a person who had done something really sh*tty to me. I tried to make her see why it bothered me, and she just kept saying, "I don't understand what you're so upset about"--no matter how exhaustively I explained. Finally I said, "How about this: somebody did something that hurt me, and now I'm hurt. Could you just feel sad for me just because I'm your child?" She said, "I don't know, because I don't understand what happened."

I asked her if she could feel proud of me. She said, "Why should I take credit for your accomplishments?"

I asked her if she could offer me emotional support--not material support, but emotional. She said, "I never understand what people mean by emotional support."

You get the picture.

I don't know. What the hell is she, besides a space alien?

[GeekyGirl]

Hi steelwork,

I saw a lot of things in your post that remind me of my BPD mother and some of the traits commonly associated with BPD. The tumultuous relationships, the impulsive behavior, the lack of empathy... .BPD and NPD aren't that different, and my therapist (or "T" believes that most people with BPD have to have some narcissistic qualities--otherwise, they wouldn't feel justified in putting the own needs above others'.

I don't know. What the hell is she, besides a space alien?

I'm going to go with: someone who is severely lacking in the ability to empathize with others. The inability to celebrate your accomplishments, lack of interest in supporting your, and resentment she has demonstrated are most certainly hurtful.

What's happening with your relationship with your mother now? In other words, what brings you here?

[steelwork]

I guess I didn't think BPD because she's so unlike my ex.

My mother has never idealized anyone in her life, probably.

She isn't a black/white thinker or a mirrorer.

She's not on an emotional roller coaster.

She's pretty steadily who she is. Doesn't blow hot and cold on people.

It was my issues around the ex that brought me to this forum. But then I've spent the last year in therapy delving into all those FOO issues of my own, you know. And a lot of hurt has been dredged up. And because I've been undergoing some different crises (not just the breakup but other big reckonings), I went to my family looking for emotional support and found that it wasn't there where she's concerned. I'd never really faced up to it, and I guess I'm undergoing a period of pretty intense mourning. I wanted to find a place where I could read stories like mine.

Also, I just had this big confrontation with her a few days ago, and I'm feeling weird about it.

[steelwork]

So I guess this really isn't the board for me, since my parent doesn't seem to show significant BPD traits... .so back to original q:

Any thoughts on a similar community for NPD?

Does it even seem NPD-ish? This portrait?

[busybee1116]

So I guess this really isn't the board for me, since my parent doesn't seem to show significant BPD traits... .so back to original q:

Any thoughts on a similar community for NPD?

Does it even seem NPD-ish? This portrait?

I think you're in the right place. Or as close as you're going to get.

My uBPDm also has many NPD traits and my uNPDf def does. Your mom sounds more consistent than most people with BPD and the lack of empathy is certainly a hallmark for NPD. Her tumultuous relationships, impulsivity, parentification of you, saying you abandonded her when you were the child sound more like BPD. Certainly, it's a spectrum. NPD and BPD are in the same personality disorder cluster for a reason.

Basically, it probably doesn't matter if she's uBPD or uNPD as they are so close. More importantly, the way kids of people with uBPD or uNPD feel growing up is similar. It's the same dance, trying to please her, knowing you are dependent on her and have to do/say the right things to get any care, the effect it has on your own relationships later on... .make sense?

[steelwork]

Basically, it probably doesn't matter if she's uBPD or uNPD as they are so close. More importantly, the way kids of people with uBPD or uNPD feel growing up is similar. It's the same dance, trying to please her, knowing you are dependent on her and have to do/say the right things to get any care, the effect it has on your own relationships later on... .make sense?

Okay, thanks. I've begun reading through the lessons, and although the broad particulars of my experience aren't much like what I'm reading here, I can see us there--my mother and me.

I do believe that the triggering event for me was the end of my relationship with a man who probably has uBPD. I think the way I was frozen out, erased, had history revised in front of my eyes, and just generally experienced the sudden loss of what had been the most intoxicating level of affection I'd ever had--that was what put me in this tailspin with my mother. That deep freeze and inability to be heard and vanishing were what characterized my childhood, and suddenly there they were again from a person who I thought deeply loved me.

So thank you, I'll keep reading those lessons.

I just want to say that the abuses I've read about here are so much worse than what I experienced. I was just mainly asked to be self-sufficient. I wasn't yelled at or hit or put in charge of anyone else's welfare.

[steelwork]

Her tumultuous relationships, impulsivity, parentification of you, saying you abandonded her when you were the child sound more like BPD.

(Sorry--since this is maybe the best place to ask for feedback... .)

I guess I see this as a narcissistic thing because of the way it was an injury to her. She still can't conceive of it in any other way. I think I understand BPD as a condition of heightened and/or uncontrolled emotions. She just usually doesn't seem to have emotions, until she feels she's on the defensive.

At the time I left, she seemed indifferent. There was no acting out, no scenes, she didn't do anything to stop me from moving out, nor did she do anything to convince me to come back (and remember she had already left me behind once--when I was 10). The only time our separations come up is when I confront her about them. Then she says, "well, you abandoned me and I was heartbroken." Turns the tables.

[Moonbeam77]

I believe my Father has NPD.  Through out my life he has acted very much as how you have described your Mother.  He mainly through the years has been indifferent towards his children.  He has spent years and years mentoring and volunteering but did little to nurture/develop his own children.  He also can be very generous towards others, once he even donated a small house, but was miserly towards his own children.  My father like your mother doesn't seem to have emotions until he is defensive and then he can rage (he has a history of domestic violence).

To cope growing up, I was always a "good girl".  I was the oldest and took on way too much responsibility for my sibling and housework.  I was very self sufficient and took care of him and the kids instead of the other way around.  I would mirror his likes/dislikes back to him. 

I came to this board for support several years ago when he started dating a BPD which he married,  I couldn't figure out how not to trigger a large emotional response from her (he then would call me after the visit and rage at me).  I asked him to read "Walking on Egg Shells" to try and open his eyes that I was not bullying/harassing or abusing her in anyway.  He read it.  He didn't think she had BPD but he said he could relate to a lot of symptoms that people with BPD experience.  Several months after that we had a phone conversation where he stated "sometimes men just move on after a divorce" implying they don't have anything to do with the children.  The weird thing is that his second divorce happened when I was in my 30s and I wasn't her kid.  So like your dream my father has "broke up" from me. 

My father dumping me has been a blessing.  It has given me space to discover what my interests are versus what I was doing to mirror him or try and please him.  I no longer have to interact with him out of feelings of guilt (honor your parents).  I can enjoy holidays without worrying about setting him or his BPD wife off.  It allowed me to mourn my father that I never had.  Most of my life, I thought if I just did or said the right thing he would act like fathers are supposed to act.  Giving up hope that someday he would be a true Dad to me is what I think helped me to heal. 

I am sorry you went through some similar experiences that I have.  You are not alone.  I hope this helps.

[steelwork]

Moonbeam77, thanks for reading and replying. That does help, yes.

Do you think you would have been able to exit the relationship on your own if your father hadn't taken the initiative? Do you feel regrets about not being around him? I guess it would be analogous to a no contact situation with a pwBPDx: you just have to detach if you want to get healthy.

What you say about mourning the father you never had--yeah, that's the work to be done. I'm so glad you've had some success at it.

I know I've tried a few times to back off from my mother, but it's hard when there are siblings and nieces and nephews, etc. It seems like it would just be too disruptive to the entire family. Also, she's in her eighties and not in good health, and I don't want to have regrets when she dies. So I always end up back where I started. I do most of the time keep our conversations very superficial and try not to take her jabs personally, but I'm not always so good at it. She gets to me.

Also she is getting a little senile, which does not help matters. I really think she deeply believes this crazy version of the truth. She'll reverse herself in the course of a conversation and get angry if I point it out. She'll deny things she's done to undermine me even when I have written evidence.

During this confrontation I mentioned (which was a mistake, I know), I pointed out one such instance. I said, "Mom, I can show you the emails if you don't believe me." She got this look of frantic rage and pointed to her head and said, "Oh boy, you have cognitive problems." Total projection in action. She said I had misunderstood her INTENTION, which was BETWEEN THE LINES and even the REVERSE of what she'd written. She expressed disgust that I could be so dense. She said, "I want to see this therapist of yours and get the record straight." I said fine, she can come to therapy with me if she wants.

Everything deescalated eventually, with her settling back into a position of having been my big supporter all along. We hugged. Then I asked if she still wanted to go to my therapy appointment with me, and she said she'd only offered to go to help me out and she'd go if I wanted her to. So I said no thanks. Haha.

Anyhow, it was a pretty intense conversation, and tears were shed (in my side, not hers), but as I walked away from her house I noticed that I did not feel anxious or upset. I felt pretty good, actually, even though I realized that none of it had sank in.

I sent her an email later to reiterate what I'd said: that I loved her and had many happy memories of childhood and we are both flawed humans who do our best. She wrote back and said she had a "feeling in her chest" like when I moved away and broke her heart. She said she was writing me a letter to explain all the things she didn't think she'd gotten across. I am bracing myself for the letter. Her letters are sometimes real doozies.

I feel like I'm just blabbing and blabbing. Sorry.

[busybee1116]

Okay, thanks. I've begun reading through the lessons, and although the broad particulars of my experience aren't much like what I'm reading here, I can see us there--my mother and me.

I just want to say that the abuses I've read about here are so much worse than what I experienced. I was just mainly asked to be self-sufficient. I wasn't yelled at or hit or put in charge of anyone else's welfare.

Oh, absolutely. I relate to this, too. This board definitely has a  spectrum of experience!  I had a rather idyllic childhood, at least by all appearances. I was not physically abused/neglected, either, nor is my mother self-harming/suicidal.  My material needs have always been met, but my emotional ones were not. I was expected to perform and please, reflect well on my family. I had to be perfect. Mistakes were not tolerated. My emotional needs were ignored, belittled or invalidated.  It wasn't until later that my mother started obviously revising history (making me question my own senses and sanity), gaslighting and becoming emotionally manipulative. When I first learned about BPD, I really felt nothing.  I was very out of touch with my emotions, because I was not allowed to have any other than happy and compliant. I feel grateful that she wasn't a witch type and reading the awful stories others post breaks my heart. It's still awful not to have a real mother. She is more like a random female relative who made sure my pigtails were perfect and that I got to school and church choir practice on time. Not because I wanted that, necessarily, but because it made us better than and how she defined herself. It wasn't a loving gesture, she was not cuddly or someone I could go to for help or reassurance. But if she needed something, you bet I was/am expected to be available, even when I was a kid.

[busybee1116]

Her tumultuous relationships, impulsivity, parentification of you, saying you abandonded her when you were the child sound more like BPD.

(Sorry--since this is maybe the best place to ask for feedback... .)

I guess I see this as a narcissistic thing because of the way it was an injury to her. She still can't conceive of it in any other way. I think I understand BPD as a condition of heightened and/or uncontrolled emotions. She just usually doesn't seem to have emotions, until she feels she's on the defensive.

At the time I left, she seemed indifferent. There was no acting out, no scenes, she didn't do anything to stop me from moving out, nor did she do anything to convince me to come back (and remember she had already left me behind once--when I was 10). The only time our separations come up is when I confront her about them. Then she says, "well, you abandoned me and I was heartbroken." Turns the tables.

There's a lot of overlap with BPD and NPD. This is a good example. You could argue that this is NPD trait.

[busybee1116]

I sent her an email later to reiterate what I'd said: that I loved her and had many happy memories of childhood and we are both flawed humans who do our best. She wrote back and said she had a "feeling in her chest" like when I moved away and broke her heart. She said she was writing me a letter to explain all the things she didn't think she'd gotten across. I am bracing myself for the letter. Her letters are sometimes real doozies.

I feel like I'm just blabbing and blabbing. Sorry.

Quit apologizing! You're in the right place for feedback and meandering 

If you haven't read about BIFF yet, do so for your next email exchange. I'd also suggest searching for the post "medium chill." Changed my life.

I first learned about this site around 2010. When I was first figuring things out I tried really hard to get my mother (and father) to understand and to admit that she been wrong or to correct the statements she made, particularly when she reversed herself.  I kept proof as well. Sadly, for folks with personality disorders, feelings are facts. They go based on how they feel, not what is true, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's kind of pointless to try and get her to understand or reach some sort of common ground. There is none, particularly with narcissistic personality disorder. NPD=I am right all the time. And they lack empathy to care that you may disagree or have your own feelings or opinions.

[steelwork]

I had a rather idyllic childhood, at least by all appearances. I was not physically abused/neglected, either, nor is my mother self-harming/suicidal.  My material needs have always been met, but my emotional ones were not. I was expected to perform and please, reflect well on my family. I had to be perfect. Mistakes were not tolerated. My emotional needs were ignored, belittled or invalidated.  It wasn't until later that my mother started obviously revising history (making me question my own senses and sanity), gaslighting and becoming emotionally manipulative.

Oh yes. I mean, my childhood was not by any appearances idyllic, but it was in a certain way "glamorous"--because my family was so unconventional. I have not mentioned my father, who was a very charismatic person, always surrounded by admirers. He put a really high value on adventurousness and resourcefulness. He often ditched us in really sketchy situations, and both parents left us alone a lot. We were encouraged to hitchhike everywhere, live by the seat of our pants. So self-sufficiency was emphasized as a really appealing quality. We were definitely valued to the extent that we were independent--by both parents, and by the large crowd of admirers orbiting my father. So it wasn't about perfect pigtails, but I get that--totally.

In other words, to ask for help or age-appropriate treatment was to admit I wasn't the kid they loved. So I was really pretty warped in my understanding of what my childhood was actually like. I get what you said about not feeling anything. I felt, but what I felt was based on what I'd been programmed to feel; that is, every act of neglect was a badge of honor for me.

[busybee1116]

Yup.  :)ifferent experiences, but similar programming. Post away.  Sounds like you had an unconventional and interesting childhood!

[eeks]

I just want to say that the abuses I've read about here are so much worse than what I experienced. I was just mainly asked to be self-sufficient. I wasn't yelled at or hit or put in charge of anyone else's welfare.

I wasn't hit or put in charge of anyone's welfare either (but my dad did a lot of shouting).  I wasn't asked to be self-sufficient, but I was expected to carry out advice/solutions at times that I would say most adults struggle with.  All my material needs and many of my wants were met.

And yet, if you look at my family history (parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles) there is... .sexual abuse, rape, poverty, emotional abuse, addiction, surviving a war.  No one in my direct line (parents, grandparents) had therapy.  So... .do the math... .unaddressed traumas don't just go away because the people are in a better situation now.

It can be hard for people like us to truly grasp how our past impacted us, because (at least in my case) people look at me and they think I have it pretty darn good.

You said you see a psychoanalyst who quoted Fairbairn?  That suggests to me he has incorporated attachment and developmental theory into his work... .that's a good sign to me. 

You say you were asked to be self-sufficient. In my opinion, that is emotional neglect.  And your mother reasoned what to do with you by what she was like as a child, not looking at the facts of how you were and meeting your needs.  My mother did this as well.  When this happens often enough, I think you don't really get to know yourself... .your feelings and needs.  Instances like that with my mother didn't leave me feeling abused, more... .confused and bewildered, and they didn't help any with my situation.

[steelwork]

You said you see a psychoanalyst who quoted Fairbairn?  That suggests to me he has incorporated attachment and developmental theory into his work... .that's a good sign to me. 

I'm in good hands. I lucked into treatment in a postdoc fellowship program associated with one of the country's top medical schools, a really competitive program, and I'm getting twice a week therapy with someone who I think is really smart and on the ball. I've never had such good mental health care, so I'm taking full advantage. I even got the ink-blot treatment!

You say you were asked to be self-sufficient. In my opinion, that is emotional neglect.  And your mother reasoned what to do with you by what she was like as a child, not looking at the facts of how you were and meeting your needs.  My mother did this as well. 

Yeah, it's pretty distorted reasoning on my mother's part. I see that now, but it's been a long journey. It's taken me more than half my life.

The other day when I tried (for the final time!) to engage her in a conversation about it, I ended up saying, "Look, Mom, if you want to maintain that children can reasonably be put in charge of all their own decisions about how and where to live and whether to even go to school, you are essentially saying that there's no difference between children and adults."

And she accepted this premise! This person who took a teacher certificate, who always claimed to have an interest in theories of child development, and she's arguing that there IS no child development because children are already all set with all they need to run their own lives. Why this contradiction never occurred to me I don't know.

So I said, "Okay you have to give up Erikson, Piaget, Kohlberg, all those people you studied."

She was like, "OK."

It was like staring into the abyss.

When this happens often enough, I think you don't really get to know yourself... .your feelings and needs.  Instances like that with my mother didn't leave me feeling abused, more... .confused and bewildered, and they didn't help any with my situation.

Yes. I never felt abused. I felt lucky. That I had been given a golden, special childhood. All these terrible acts of neglect were things I BOASTED about as a kid and told "funny" stories about as an adult. I was talking to an old friend recently, and I said to him how I'd realized a lot of those "funny" stories were pretty dark. That I'd been looking at things kind of sideways.

He said, "Of course! You didn't know that? I's the main thing about you! You're the world's most productive lemonade factory."

So that's the level of confusion I was dealing with.

How about for you, eeks? How did you start to get clearer on things?

[eeks]

I'm in good hands. I lucked into treatment in a postdoc fellowship program associated with one of the country's top medical schools, a really competitive program, and I'm getting twice a week therapy with someone who I think is really smart and on the ball. I've never had such good mental health care, so I'm taking full advantage. I even got the ink-blot treatment!

Glad to hear it.  It can be harder than it should be to find a good therapist. 

Yeah, it's pretty distorted reasoning on my mother's part. I see that now, but it's been a long journey. It's taken me more than half my life.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing that made it more difficult for you to see the distorted reasoning, but my mother is a teacher as well, educated, nuanced and precise in other circumstances (I mean, she studied literature... .).  But when it comes to some of her own feelings, and how she raised me, there are things that are just... .absurd.  And for the longest time I didn't see them as absurd, I blamed myself for being a failure in life, after all I had been given everything and my mother loved me very much and made sure I had what I needed to have a good life.  (My father, different story, they are still married but I haven't really had a "relationship" with him since I was about 10, I'm 37 now)  And I guess I thought, she's an intelligent person, and the things she said made sense, or at least she was very confident in them, that she knew what the right way to live was. 

The other day when I tried (for the final time!) to engage her in a conversation about it, I ended up saying, "Look, Mom, if you want to maintain that children can reasonably be put in charge of all their own decisions about how and where to live and whether to even go to school, you are essentially saying that there's no difference between children and adults."

And she accepted this premise! This person who took a teacher certificate, who always claimed to have an interest in theories of child development, and she's arguing that there IS no child development because children are already all set with all they need to run their own lives. Why this contradiction never occurred to me I don't know.

Well, see above.  Maybe it didn't occur to you for reasons similar to the impact of my mother's behaviour on me.  Perhaps our emotions as survivors can override our logic sometimes, too.

So I said, "Okay you have to give up Erikson, Piaget, Kohlberg, all those people you studied."

She was like, "OK."

It was like staring into the abyss.

I'm almost convinced that if my mom's father were still alive and went to a psychiatrist, he'd be diagnosed with NPD.  He said he was perfect and knew everything, and his wife, my mom and her sisters knew nothing... .and he was serious. 

This makes me wonder if people who have personality disorders or who grew up with someone who had one, develop oversimplistic solutions for the common inner contradictions and conflicts of life.  For instance, what if your mother did not know how to empathize and give guidance, and instead of facing that fact, the pain in her that may be associated with it, and committing to the difficult work of therapy... .she brought a quick resolution to it by rationalizing it, "Well, children already have everything they need."

This is totally the type of thinking my mother would use.  She told me as an adult, within the last few years, that when I was 4, my dad would say cruel things to me, and she wanted to leave him, but she stayed because "kids are better off with two parents".  (so she wanted to leave and then, voila, I had a baby sister! total coincidence!)

In high school I would spend every weekend crying because I didn't have any friends, and she said to herself "Well, I was like that when I was in high school."

Yes. I never felt abused. I felt lucky. That I had been given a golden, special childhood. All these terrible acts of neglect were things I BOASTED about as a kid and told "funny" stories about as an adult. I was talking to an old friend recently, and I said to him how I'd realized a lot of those "funny" stories were pretty dark. That I'd been looking at things kind of sideways.

He said, "Of course! You didn't know that? I's the main thing about you! You're the world's most productive lemonade factory."

Haha lemonade factory!  I think many survivors are, because they have to be.  And that has its benefits.  But it might also be nice to have strawberries sometimes.   

I wonder if humour was a coping strategy for you?

How about for you, eeks? How did you start to get clearer on things?

Hah, very slowly.  Therapists who treated my issues as superficial (thought I was just in a little bad mood, or needed some wellness tips?) or sat there, nodded and didn't say anything, really made the process a lot longer than it needed to be.

The ones who were the most helpful in terms of "helping me get clear on things" were direct.  Not blunt, not "confrontational coaching", but direct descriptions of the "big picture" they were seeing in what I was describing.  Whether they were friends or therapists.  In 2009 I had an assessment by a psychiatrist (not one who treated me, this was prior to group therapy at a hospital) send a letter back to my family doctor including the phrase "emotional abuse at the hands of her father".  I thought that sounded awfully dramatic, what with the "hands".  I think I've only just recently accepted that, within the last several months, in part because my mother, although she sometimes reacted negatively to what he said to me, her attitude was basically "he is not worth listening to", but she communicated that through silence.  And she also taught me not to trigger his anger, which I can imagine leaving me feeling as though the burden was on me.  So it was hard to see that what he was doing was abuse, when she seemingly condoned it. 

Even as an adult, when she reacts with contempt to how he used to treat me, pointing out what a hypocrite he is (e.g. criticizing me about money, even though he is terrible with money), I still don't feel validated.  I can't help but take him seriously.  Whoa, lightbulb, it just occurred to me that maybe my mother can tune him out because she learned to tune her father out.  She says she went "Zen", silent, while he was shouting, just let it go right through her.  Maybe it was really dissociation. 

As you may have noticed, I was closer to my mother throughout childhood than my father, so her dysfunctions took me longer to see.

I had a friend last year (very smart, not a therapist) tell me "you know your mother was emotionally abusive?"  Nobody has said this to me before.  My therapist at the time (psychoanalyst, year and a half) would say things like "your parents were too preoccupied with their own emotions, and the problems in their marriage, to attune to you", but I guess I needed to hear that stark word "abuse", even if I eventually decided it didn't apply.  Otherwise, the problems in my life still felt like my fault, for squandering what I'd been given.  And my mother always said she loved me, and spent time with me, and seemed to care about me.  So her abusive aspects were harder to see.  My assessment is that she is codependent towards most people, even me sometimes, but she likely has complex PTSD and this causes her to act small-n narcissistically towards me, in her panic that I might act in such a way to prove she is not perfect, and provoke the wrath of her (internalized or actual) parents.

So I've rambled on and on about what didn't help me get clear, I guess?   

Books, books have also helped.  Not superficial self-help, but books like The Narcissistic Family by Donaldson-Pressman and Pressman, recommended to me by a staff member here.

This site has helped a lot.  I recovered from my relationship with a uBPD fairly quickly (it was a relatively brief relationship) but I stuck around for the high-level discussion about psychology, transcending the superficial pablum "love yourself!" "why don't you care for yourself by having a nice warm bath?" so prevalent elsewhere on the Internet. 

[steelwork]

Glad to hear it.  It can be harder than it should be to find a good therapist.  

I always encourage people who are starting from zero to look into training programs like this. The therapists are just starting out, yes, but they are supervised, and they have to get through a very competitive screening to even get into the program.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing that made it more difficult for you to see the distorted reasoning, but my mother is a teacher as well, educated, nuanced and precise in other circumstances (I mean, she studied literature... .).  But when it comes to some of her own feelings, and how she raised me, there are things that are just... .absurd.  And for the longest time I didn't see them as absurd, I blamed myself for being a failure in life, after all I had been given everything and my mother loved me very much and made sure I had what I needed to have a good life.  

Oh yeah. I always felt that my mother was brilliant--the smartest person I knew. She went to college at age 15. She really had the brains to do anything, but she lacked the usual kind of ambition. Instead she threw herself into attempts at careers that were impractical for her, and in the most impractical ways. I'm not as smart as she is, but I've fallen into the same habit. Maybe because I admired her so much. Just... .huge admiration. It's also perhaps relevant that she is a great beauty. (I'm not. Not being modest; I simply didn't get her looks.) She was stunning as a young woman and attracted men everywhere and stayed with no one. In some way I think it made her crazy life possible. My sister pointed out the other day that I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO EVER LEFT HER!

Anyhow. But people didn't look on me as blessed. I got the message that a lot of people thought I was neglected. Always had dirty hair and face, torn clothes... .always unsupervised... .at times, actually, starved for good food. My brother recalled recently going to the school parent-teacher night alone when he was a kid and seeing how his teachers' faces dropped.

But... .all this was more evidence of how TOUGH and thus LUCKY AND SPECIAL WE WERE! We thought of other kids as maybe nice and fun but usually immature. It really was a kind of cult.

But the upshot was the same as what you describe: I saw my failures and my depression and everything bad as not just my own fault but proof that I'd wasted a great advantage I had just by being born into my family.

I'm almost convinced that if my mom's father were still alive and went to a psychiatrist, he'd be diagnosed with NPD.  He said he was perfect and knew everything, and his wife, my mom and her sisters knew nothing... .and he was serious.  

This makes me wonder if people who have personality disorders or who grew up with someone who had one, develop oversimplistic solutions for the common inner contradictions and conflicts of life.  For instance, what if your mother did not know how to empathize and give guidance, and instead of facing that fact, the pain in her that may be associated with it, and committing to the difficult work of therapy... .she brought a quick resolution to it by rationalizing it, "Well, children already have everything they need."

For sure. There's stuff about her father that was very hurtful. She and her siblings, in their 70s and 80s, are still obviously in conflict over it. Also, they have always competed with each other for his favor in subtle ways (I mean, he's long gone, but they still do). It's like a Tennessee Williams play when they all get together.

And what you say about quick resolution via rationalization: sure. Yes. My mother has never been one to "get in touch with her feelings." She's so intellectualized. As sophisticated as she is about a lot of things, she dismisses the whole mental health field out of hand. (And a lot of the medical field as well.)

It's funny. Just yesterday I was saying to my T how I had begun thinking of my mother as lacking certain emotions, like a color blindness. and she said, "Possibly she has erected a fortress around those emotions." Which seems much more likely.

In 2009 I had an assessment by a psychiatrist (not one who treated me, this was prior to group therapy at a hospital) send a letter back to my family doctor including the phrase "emotional abuse at the hands of her father".  I thought that sounded awfully dramatic, what with the "hands".  I think I've only just recently accepted that,

I had a friend last year (very smart, not a therapist) tell me "you know your mother was emotionally abusive?"  Nobody has said this to me before.  My therapist at the time (psychoanalyst, year and a half) would say things like "your parents were too preoccupied with their own emotions, and the problems in their marriage, to attune to you", but I guess I needed to hear that stark word "abuse", even if I eventually decided it didn't apply.  Otherwise, the problems in my life still felt like my fault, for squandering what I'd been given.  

Yes, hearing it said to me several times put me on a different path. I spent a lot of time "explaining" why this or that friend or therapist didn't understand my family, and finally I just had to admit the outside world into my head and see it from a broader perspective.

I'd made some progress, but the breakup (a year ago) put me in complete crisis, scared the hell out of me, and I no longer had a choice about it I HAD to go to work.

Thank you, uBPDx!

Books, books have also helped.  Not superficial self-help, but books like The Narcissistic Family by Donaldson-Pressman and Pressman, recommended to me by a staff member here.

I'll look into this.

This site has helped a lot.  I recovered from my relationship with a uBPD fairly quickly (it was a relatively brief relationship) but I stuck around for the high-level discussion about psychology, transcending the superficial pablum "love yourself!" "why don't you care for yourself by having a nice warm bath?" so prevalent elsewhere on the Internet.  

Yup. That's fine for picking yourself up from a situational bummer, but there is life to live!

[eeks]

It's funny. Just yesterday I was saying to my T how I had begun thinking of my mother as lacking certain emotions, like a color blindness. and she said, "Possibly she has erected a fortress around those emotions." Which seems much more likely.

I agree with your T, I think my mother does the same (although it is rare that she admits it.)  For both our mothers, it was likely a survival strategy to stay attached to their own parents. 

How do you think growing up with someone like this affected your own awareness and acceptance of emotions?

[steelwork]

How do you think growing up with someone like this affected your own awareness and acceptance of emotions?

I will quote the letter of evaluation I got after the neuro-psych testing:

"The testing revealed that you struggle to express feelings like frustration or anger. As we discussed in our last meeting, one way you manage this problem is to "stuff" your feelings, which creates depressive symptoms, especially feelings like helplessness and hopelessness. Another way you manage your feelings is to double down on your strengths: you have an impressive intellect and the ability to empathically read other people [Note: I don't know what "impressive" means... .I guess just vis a vis the different tests they administered.] While these skills have served you well in your life to help you look on the bright side of things, find the silver lining, or comprehend situations that may seem unbearable to you, they may also sometimes get in the way of letting out how you really feel and standing up for how you really feel."

Short answer: other people's feelings have often been more acceptable and interesting to me than my own. I'm obviously getting a LOT more interested in my own feelings these days! But I tend to intellectualize them, or have a hard time staying on them. In therapy I have found that I have to work to stay on myself and not wander into speculations about the minds and emotions of the people I'm in conflict with.

How about you?

[steelwork]

By the way, I got an email from my mother last night asking for my address so she can send me this letter she's been working on in which she explains everything to me. My gut clenches at the thought of receiving this letter. (And what does it say that 1. she doesn't have my mailing address; 2. only asks for it when she wants to self-justify?)

[eeks]

How do you think growing up with someone like this affected your own awareness and acceptance of emotions?

I will quote the letter of evaluation I got after the neuro-psych testing:

"The testing revealed that you struggle to express feelings like frustration or anger. As we discussed in our last meeting, one way you manage this problem is to "stuff" your feelings, which creates depressive symptoms, especially feelings like helplessness and hopelessness. Another way you manage your feelings is to double down on your strengths: you have an impressive intellect and the ability to empathically read other people [Note: I don't know what "impressive" means... .I guess just vis a vis the different tests they administered.] While these skills have served you well in your life to help you look on the bright side of things, find the silver lining, or comprehend situations that may seem unbearable to you, they may also sometimes get in the way of letting out how you really feel and standing up for how you really feel."

Short answer: other people's feelings have often been more acceptable and interesting to me than my own. I'm obviously getting a LOT more interested in my own feelings these days! But I tend to intellectualize them, or have a hard time staying on them. In therapy I have found that I have to work to stay on myself and not wander into speculations about the minds and emotions of the people I'm in conflict with.

What if impressive just means "impressive"?  Go ahead and own it 

I'm curious, these were test results, but would you say this accords with your experience?  It makes sense to me, the cycle of anger -> "stuffing" -> helplessness, but I want to know your experience and observation, because to me, that is where the growth happens, making the connection between the intellectual insight, and the visceral experience. 

If you aren't sure, I have a suggestion.  The next time you notice yourself feeling helpless, "rewind the tape" of events in your mind to a few moments before you began feeling that way.  What happened?  Did someone say something?  If so, what?  Or was it something you felt?  And what was it?  If you don't find it, rewind a bit more.  Then play the scene in "slow motion".  I have found that anger shows up as a very brief "spike" in intensity.  This is why "rewind and slow motion" can be helpful. 

If you do notice something like this, I also would not be surprised if you see that very quickly after that is when you "shunt" into speculation about the other person's state of mind, motives etc.  As it feels comfortable (i.e. if you feel panic attacks or "backlash" of helplessness coming on, you might need to ease off the intensity a bit), you can begin to "unpack" the anger.  What are the words associated with it (e.g. "hey wait a minute, that's not right!"

You might also find the questions about anger I wrote here useful  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289925.msg12728202#msg12728202

How about you?

I never totally absorbed my parents' advice and way of doing things, but I also did not feel grounded and supported enough in pursuing my own way either, so I would say I often feel "in limbo".

In therapy, one of the main patterns in myself I discovered is that there is a set of "forbidden" emotions and behaviours (mostly falling under the headings of "spontaneous unplanned actions where I did not check for all the dangers first" and "sexuality, as well as embodied sensuality as a way of being even in non sexual situations like dancing" 

And the way it plays out for me is spontaneity/sensuality -> BZZTT! (that's like an electric zap noise) -> anxiety, panic, and/or shame.

Ooh now that I wrote that i wonder if those two things are related.  "In limbo" and anxiety/panic.  I was trained that my own impulses and desires (well, at least some of them) were shameful.

I don't have a good relationship with anger either, but the way some people describe this anger-helplessness axis (I have a friend who describes it this way) I don't quite relate.  My anger tends to spin round and round in litanies of complaint or what I call "futile rage".  True anger I affectionately call the "20-second blast furnace", and I have been surprised to discover that it often does not compel me to take any action at all, just feel it.  And afterwards I feel just a tiny bit warmer, softer, more grounded.  This suggests to me that I may be processing old anger without going into the past events.  (cool.)

[eeks]

By the way, I got an email from my mother last night asking for my address so she can send me this letter she's been working on in which she explains everything to me. My gut clenches at the thought of receiving this letter. (And what does it say that 1. she doesn't have my mailing address; 2. only asks for it when she wants to self-justify?)

I have a feeling that your challenge will have similar aspects to mine with my mother, and I say that because you are anticipating a letter in which she does a lot of "self-justification". 

This is what I am trying to get through my head about my mother... .she cannot, will not validate me, and she needs to vigorously defend her belief that she was a good parent because if she doesn't the whole facade crumbles, and there are all her awful trauma emotions that she (tragically) has avoided all her life.

I also get the sense that it is very risky, for similar reasons, for your mother to allow you your subjectivity (i.e. to have a different perspective on your childhood than she does).

So I can understand your gut clenching.  What are your options here?  I'm thinking it would be helpful to have some threshold level of self-validation (with help from your T and us) before reading it.  So that you can survive her "telling her side of the story" (which may not accord with yours).

Do you have to read it at all?  I know that sounds provocative, I just thought I'd put it out there in case it stimulates some thought.

[steelwork]

What are your options here?  I'm thinking it would be helpful to have some threshold level of self-validation (with help from your T and us) before reading it.  So that you can survive her "telling her side of the story" (which may not accord with yours).

Do you have to read it at all?  I know that sounds provocative, I just thought I'd put it out there in case it stimulates some thought.

I know what's coming in the letter. It'll be a rehash of what I've heard a million times, and it's coming precisely because I confronted her with a lot of my truth last week. It's just too much for her to handle, and this is the result. When I don't agree with her view of things, she assumes she has not been clear, so she writes a long letter rephrasing it.

In a way, all this is therapeutic. It would be nice to have had an emotionally healthy parent, and this stuff kicks up some grief--a kind of counterfactual mourning for the mother I didn't have. It's painful to face the facts, but I'd rather be in mourning than still blaming myself. You have to go through it to get past it. And yeah, the self-blaming doesn't stop overnight just as the mourning doesn't end on some set schedule, but I know a little bit more every day that I'm not just whiny or weak or undeserving of love.

So you see this is a lifelong struggle. The gut-clenching isn't about the contents of the letter. I could sit down and write it FOR her. I've read these letters in the past and been devastated by them, but that's not where I'm at now. My gut clenches as much for her as for me at this point.

[steelwork]

I'm curious, these were test results, but would you say this accords with your experience?  It makes sense to me, the cycle of anger -> "stuffing" -> helplessness, but I want to know your experience and observation, because to me, that is where the growth happens, making the connection between the intellectual insight, and the visceral experience. 

Yes, I can see how that sounded clinical and not personally integrated or something, quoting a report. Making those connections is what I spend 1.5 hrs a week doing in therapy 

I could give dozens of dull examples.

A recent cycle of stuffing has happened around my dealings with a (totally narcissistic) person who is in charge of assigning work. He's thwarted me in various crazy-making ways, and in this case I'm actually NOT able to express my anger (or I'd burn that bridge), and I've seen after every round I go with him how defeated I get.

Re. the other thing--the tendency to use a kind of empathy dodge to avoid my feelings. THAT I see in therapy. Now I'm able to notice it happening before my T points it out: I'll be discussing painful emotions related to a relationship where I feel I've been wronged, and suddenly I find myself expressing what I think might be THEIR perspective on the situation.

I never totally absorbed my parents' advice and way of doing things, but I also did not feel grounded and supported enough in pursuing my own way either, so I would say I often feel "in limbo".

In therapy, one of the main patterns in myself I discovered is that there is a set of "forbidden" emotions and behaviours (mostly falling under the headings of "spontaneous unplanned actions where I did not check for all the dangers first" and "sexuality, as well as embodied sensuality as a way of being even in non sexual situations like dancing" 

And the way it plays out for me is spontaneity/sensuality -> BZZTT! (that's like an electric zap noise) -> anxiety, panic, and/or shame.

Ooh now that I wrote that i wonder if those two things are related.  "In limbo" and anxiety/panic.  I was trained that my own impulses and desires (well, at least some of them) were shameful.

I don't have a good relationship with anger either, but the way some people describe this anger-helplessness axis (I have a friend who describes it this way) I don't quite relate.  My anger tends to spin round and round in litanies of complaint or what I call "futile rage".  True anger I affectionately call the "20-second blast furnace", and I have been surprised to discover that it often does not compel me to take any action at all, just feel it.  And afterwards I feel just a tiny bit warmer, softer, more grounded.  This suggests to me that I may be processing old anger without going into the past events.  (cool.)

I have vast oceans of repressed feelings still to discover, I'm sure!

And there are some kinds of anger I have no problem expressing.

But they are not the kind that matter. More like telling someone they can't cut in line, that stuff. Or the "venting" kind of anger.

I think I need to spend some time teasing out the different types of anger and how I handle them.

[eeks]

but I know a little bit more every day that I'm not just whiny or weak or undeserving of love.

 

So you see this is a lifelong struggle. The gut-clenching isn't about the contents of the letter. I could sit down and write it FOR her. I've read these letters in the past and been devastated by them, but that's not where I'm at now. My gut clenches as much for her as for me at this point.

Thanks for elaborating.  I'm not sure I understand, are you saying your gut clenches for her because you can see how your relationship with her is changing (you told her some of your truths, and you see it's too much for her to handle) and you are imagining how she must feel?

A recent cycle of stuffing has happened around my dealings with a (totally narcissistic) person who is in charge of assigning work. He's thwarted me in various crazy-making ways, and in this case I'm actually NOT able to express my anger (or I'd burn that bridge), and I've seen after every round I go with him how defeated I get.

Re. the other thing--the tendency to use a kind of empathy dodge to avoid my feelings. THAT I see in therapy. Now I'm able to notice it happening before my T points it out: I'll be discussing painful emotions related to a relationship where I feel I've been wronged, and suddenly I find myself expressing what I think might be THEIR perspective on the situation.

Yep, I think this is where a lot of the work is.  I was just thinking how there are some things I almost have to "learn all over again".  Although I've been influenced by my life experiences outside my family since then, of course, I still carry that skewed sense of what's "socially appropriate", which emotions are acceptable, how to handle said emotions, and what healthy boundaries and a healthy sense of self-interest vs. other-interest looks and feels like.  Maybe you feel that sometimes too.