Object Constancy question?

[Lou12]

Hi all.

Just wondered how object constancy plays out in an LDR in the sense of... .if you BPD starts triggering due to object constancy issues, how do they usual resolve that issue in themselves in you are not around due to being pushed away.

Does the same cycle still play out of splitting you black? And how would they split you white if it was down to object constancy in your absence?

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[babyducks]

hi Lou12

I understand object constancy to mean  - An inability to remember that people or objects are consistent, trustworthy and reliable, especially when they are out of your immediate field of vision, is that how you are using the phrase here?

I think it's important to acknowledge that people with BPD are people and don't always behave in a certain way.   

Would you like to tell us more about what is going on?

'ducks

[Lou12]

Hi babyducks and thanks for the reply.

I have reason to believe my BPDbf recently broke up with me due to possible object consistency. We are a LDR.

I am presently following the advice of ppl on the site and I have totally backed away from him to give him space.

My issue is... if the reason behind our latest breakup is object constancy then do the same rules still apply of 'backing off'? Kind of seems counter productive if object constancy is the problem. Or does the cycle still remain the same regardless of the trigger? Ie... will his usual emotions still go through the split black then white phases.

How will he split me white if the trigger was down to object consistency if I'm not present to eradicate this feeling? Hope I'm making sense . I'm a little mentally tired at present :/

[foggydew]

Sorry, I don't have any answers, but I find the question really relevant. And sometimes I think I myself have problems with 'object consistency' - and it is NOT improved by no contact. That sends me into total depression.

[waverider]

I think object consistency in itself is not consistent. He will reengage once he gets an impulse or need to.

Not contacting could be either deliberate, or because he has "switched you off'. Hard to say which is the case.

[Lou12]

Thanks waverider...

I was having difficulties understanding that on our last conversation were he told me the relationship was off, he then went on to say some really caring and kind things. Not the voice of someone who has split me black!

Then I recalled from previous times he's been triggering that he's said to me on the telephone 'I feel better now when I hear your voice' or 'I just need to see you and I'll be ok'.

Before I didn't give them a lot of thought but thinking back to our last conversation, he seemed to go on to chatting to me normal once I was on the telephone. I really think this could be an object constancy problem with him once he triggered (which I noticed signs of him doing before the 'breakup' and now that he'd heard my voice he felt calmer.

If the same rules apply with object constancy as with any tigger then I will remain out of contact! Appears very counter productive though!

Thank you foggydew

It's very confusing to know how to deal with BPD situations isn't it? From what I've read less is always more with BPDs! It's hard though because when you do relieve there stress by them hearing your voice it kind of seems like the right thing to do.

I very much want my bf in my life, I love him to bits. So I have to go with best evidence based practice to attempt to make my relationship successful. Would be very handy if they came with instruction though

[waverider]

It's very confusing to know how to deal with BPD situations isn't it? From what I've read less is always more with BPDs! It's hard though because when you do relieve there stress by them hearing your voice it kind of seems like the right thing to do.

Having easy access to your voice without it being pushed in front of him is the key.  Its a kind of perceived fear of being controlled/directed/told what to do/pressurized that deters them. But if you can make it their idea it is more amenable. dangle the carrot but not directly in their face.

[Lou12]

Mmm I'm not even sure that is possible waverider, we are LDR and I know if I call he'll ignore it. He has no answer machine to hear my voice.

Any suggestions welcome on how you feel I could go about this?

[babyducks]

It's very confusing to know how to deal with BPD situations isn't it? From what I've read less is always more with BPDs! It's hard though because when you do relieve there stress by them hearing your voice it kind of seems like the right thing to do.

Hi Lou,

I remember EaglesJuJu said something recently that helped me with my relationship.   What Eagles said was that as great as it is to read and relate to other's stories, it can be easy to adopt patterns of behavior from others stories and apply them to my relationship.  Whether it was appropriate for me or not.   

She also went on to say 

As there are common traits amongst BPD sufferers, you have to remember everyone has different traits. Inferences about individual behavior drawn from a group is an ecological fallacy.  Try not to fall in that trap.

That worked well for me.   Once I figured out what she meant.   

For me if I end up making decision solely based on BPD, instead of based on what I want and feel with an understanding of BPD factored in I end up short changing myself.

For me, in your example I might call because I want to reach out, and if my phone call doesn't get answered I can say, Oh he wasn't home or maybe he was home and he isn't in a place where he can talk to me right now.   And not take that personally.

what do you think?

'ducks

[Lou12]

Thanks babyducks, I took on board what you said and my instinct was to reach out with a message opposed to a call which gave him a chance to respond or not.

Anyhow the message was answered like he hadn't broke up with me the week before, all very normal!

We have decided to take a trip together in a few weeks. I think he likes the idea that we have something booked for us in the future.

I'm not holding my breathe though as I know how quickly things can change :/

I still need to work on how his emotional ups and downs still affect my own mood. I'm getting better but it still affects me!

[Jessica84]

I take object constancy to mean "out of sight, out of mind" but I'm not really sure if that's what it means? Is that how you see it, too? If so I can see how remaining out of touch would seem counterproductive. But, in the context of a push cycle, it's usually best to wait him out - even if that means falling off his radar for awhile. There's always a risk he won't return, but as waverider says, they will if they have a need to.

An occasional "check-in" text (like you did) is a good way to gage his mood - if he's not receptive to the blip on his radar, back off. If he's happy for the blip, take it from there.

Anyway, glad you're back on his radar. Hope the trip goes well for you! After all this, you deserve a vacation! 

I'm always amazed at how things can go north as quickly as they went south. Or how they conveniently forget what they said or did. Good to remember when we're despairing over things. And a good reminder not to take them personally knowing they flip-flop as much as they do.

[waverider]

A short message is often better than a call as it doesn't put people on the spot, they get to think about and reply, or not, in their own time. Hence retaining control for themselves.

[Lou12]

I see object constancy affecting my BPD as...

When he wants me close and I am unable to fulfill that need there and then, as a defence mechanism he starts to believe I am unable to fulfill his needs in every area of his life. Splitting comes into play and he turns his need for wanting me into a 'what's the point of the relationship serario' because I can't fill that emotion if that makes sense. The whole relationship then becomes worthless to him. Until... .his emotion changes to an emotion that's not needing me there and then and the object constancy thing no longer becomes the primary issue.

I'm learning so much. I've also picked up on just how high up the spectrum he is. His emotions literally change from hour to hour. I am becoming fully aware that it is near on impossible to ever fulfill any need due to the rapidness of the change. It's fruitless.

I know at the moment we are going through a period of massive push and pull, I believe based on a escalation of his feelings for me. I just have to wait this one out whilst putting the tools I've learnt into action.

It really is my very first cycle where I have stuck around in almost 2 years so I'm still very much learning how this will play out.

Up to now, thankfully he hasn't ran into the arms of his ex which I believed there was a possibility he would do. This is one of my boundaries that he absolutely knows not to cross. This presently speaks volumes to me for how much he's trying

[sweetheart]

Hi Lou12,

Babyducks makes a really good point about what's right for me isn't always right for you.

I remember answering a post on here about someone in a similar situation to your who clearly wanted to contact her bf, but felt this wasn't what she was supposed to do. My answer was if you want to contact him then do it.

It's important to not be prescriptive, to remember that there is flexibility and wriggle room in all the strategies and interventions here. For me it's about adapting them to fit your needs, using them as a guide.

I'm really pleased you sorted things out. 

[babyducks]

Hi Lou12,

BPD is a spectrum disorder.   And like sweetheart said, what works for me might not work for her, or wouldn't work at all for waverider.  There is room for individual expression.

For me, I need to be very centered and grounded in my own mind.    And doing things, or not doing things, that make me more centered and grounded.

I think this is a valuable insight:

When he wants me close and I am unable to fulfill that need there and then, as a defense mechanism he starts to believe I am unable to fulfill his needs in every area of his life.

Now that you understand this, how does it effect your thinking?   Obviously you can't be there 105% of the time.   No one could be.   Is there a way to create a validating environment around this without violating your boundaries.   In a simple low key way?   Something like, 'I am going to X now but I am looking forward to talking to you on Tuesday and I will be sure to see you on Saturday'.    Would that help or hurt the situation?

ducks

[shatra]

bducks wrote

I understand object constancy to mean  - An inability to remember that people or objects are consistent, trustworthy and reliable, especially when they are out of your immediate field of vision, is that how you are using the phrase here?

-----Yes it means that.  I looked up object permanence--which has the same definition.  I have read some people describe object constancy to mean the same person has good and bad traits at the same time

----Lou I am not sure that ob. constancy is any worse in a LDR... .even if you live next door to them, out of sight can mean out of mind... .but I see what u mean, there might be less consistent contact in a LDR, and provokes object constancy fears by him

[Lou12]

I'll just re-post here what I posted to some earlier...

With regards to things improving, that's the million dollar question that we all search for! The thing is with BPD it's about accepting that this is the way it is! So whilst it may look like the scales are slowly dipping in that direction, within a minute the can rapidly change. You can't blame yourself for this especially when you are working so hard on validation. Maybe look at radical acceptance and try and understand the situation as best you can.

I totally understand how frustrating it can be. What I am learning is that I also need to take responsibility for my own actions. My BPD bf has just recently ended our relationship. After a chat we agreed to take some time out. I have recently contacted him and we agreed to take a trip together. Within 2 hours he was ignoring me again. What I learned from this... .I did not respect that he had asked me for some space because I needed him to make to validate me when I started to panic about if he'd come back. I lured him in with a holiday. This was a desperate atempt on my behalf to put things right and look to him to calm my own abandonment issues. On reflection, I deserved what I got. I didn't respect his need for space. I manipulated the sutuation. I didn't accept that he does not have the ability to validate me. I tried to run to him to make the situation better... .something he can't offer.

I think I've learnt my lesson that I have to respect ppls feelings. They are not mine to change. And I have to accept his non ability to help me with my feelings.

I hope this makes sense? For me it's about absorbing and processing more about radical acceptance. He won't change, I can change and either accept that he has BPD and all that goes with this or move on to another... I choose to stay...

So the above is how it has played out over the last few days... .

In hindsight it was probably best to have left him alone! But everything is a learning curve.

[babyducks]

Hi Lou12

I hope this makes sense? For me it's about absorbing and processing more about radical acceptance. He won't change, I can change and either accept that he has BPD and all that goes with this or move on to another... I choose to stay...

So the above is how it has played out over the last few days... .

In hindsight it was probably best to have left him alone! But everything is a learning curve.

You sound pretty centered and grounded.   I think you are correct.  It is a learning curve.   We do the best we can and own our side of the street.   I'm sorry that things didn't turn out quite the way you hoped but I think it's encouraging that you've processed this and come out feeling and sounding stronger.

'ducks

[Lou12]

Thanks ducks, I'm not great but I'm trying

It feels alien to believe that I no longer mean a lot to this person at the moment! How much do I long to shake him and say 'it's me' but it's a pointless dream.  From what I hear the more I practice the tools the shorter the cycles can become? I know this is not a definite but I feel I need to hold onto some hope? Lol

Chances are he's now perusing another and going through that idealisation phase and being happy about someone else. That makes me feel sick inside... .

[unicorn2014]

This is amazing Lou, you and I have some things in common, boyfriend with BPD traits, in a LDR, have a child or children.

This is a real interesting question.

My bf split me black today but I fought him tooth and nail over it and I was willing to lose the relationship so he backed down and called me and went over my list of things I had pointed out to him. I really thought I was going to have to leave my relationship today. I'm glad I didn't. My boyfriend denies he splits me black although he admits he has a couple of BPD traits. I don't think splitting black is a trait, I think its a defense mechanism. I'll have to consult my literature.

[Lou12]

I've tried to push him out of splitting me black Unicorn, some times it's worked and sometimes not but what I learned was it very rarely had anything to do with my abilities to pull him out of splitting me and more to do with how he was feeling inside. So for me I previously decided to make a few initial attempts and if they do not work then back off. I'm now going to attempt pulling away sooner the minute I sense dsyregulation and see how that goes.

I'm still to frightened of losing him by making massive stances against him but I am addressing this within myself. He knows I always cave because of my abandonment issues. I am aware I need to tighten up my boundaries on this but until my fear of losing him becomes less there is no point kidding myself that I'll do anything else.

[unicorn2014]

Lou I hope you don't mind my directness.

We can't push anyone out of anything.

He has to know he has a problem and want to recover.

When you say abandonment issues are you saying you have that trait yourself?

[Lou12]

Oh I know I can't pull him out of it Unicorn, that's what I learned! I was responding to you saying you 'fought tooth and nail' and your partner backed down. Mine never would back down and it was a useless endeavour.

Yes I definitely have issues with abandonment, not sure where from because I was never abandoned but I'm certain it lies from a childhood dynamic of some sort.

Weirdly I was only saying to my bf today that I have really overcome my abandonment issues because you have abandoned me that much I've had to deal with them . We both had a chuckle over the irony

[unicorn2014]

Lou I think for me I have a boundary around myself for splitting me black , I will not tolerate that behavior. I would go no contact over that if it continued.

I know you have children. Is it possible your fear of abandonment came from that relationship?

At any rate you really seem to love your partner.

I think you said you were in a LDR. How much daily contact do you have with him? Is it a routine?

[Lou12]

Good for you Unicorn, I wish I could do the same but I'm not ready yet. I need to work on my self more.

No it's definitely something I've carried from a young age. My parents had a very vocally volitile relationship where their was lots of threats of break ups so I'd say it's more than likely got something to do with that.

We are LDR. When he's 'normal' we communicate everyday and see each other every week for 1 or two nights. When he is BPDing, (which is becoming a little shorter times) then that all depends.

[unicorn2014]

what would working on yourself more look like?

[Lou12]

For me it would be a boundary of not getting the ST anymore outweighing not being abandoned. So when I feel safe enough in my self to excert this boundary and know I'm willing to risk abandonment and deal with it I'll do it. It's something I'm working with myself on

[Lou12]

Haha I've just realised I repeated your question back to you! Long day!

I am learning to love myself more by doing things for myself, eating healthier, going to the gym, reading more etc

[unicorn2014]

How are you working with yourself on this? Like what are you reading?

[Lou12]

Hi Unicorn, I practice spirituality, do mindfulness techniques from a book and am presently reading The Secret. I also do anything that keeps me with PMA

Thankfully I am very lucky that I have never been afflicted with mental health problems except for 'rescue and abandonment issues'.