Having dinner with my NPD/BPD ex next weekend.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm going to get daring and have some minor contact with my ex next Saturday.  I'm having dinner with him and a group of friends in a restaurant.  He is aware that I am coming and has not backed out.

If you've been following my posts, you know that the last time I saw him, he threatened me with a PPO for looking at him the wrong way.

I have come to the conclusion that my ex is primarily a narcissist, and fears narcissistic injury far more than he fears abandonment.  He only shows up when he hears that I'm dating someone else, as if to check on the availability of his supply.  He can't quite let me get away, but he also won't get close enough to me to risk narcissistic injury.  He will maybe say hello to me, and lurk in my general vicinity, until I pay attention to him.  As long as the attention is positive or nonexistent, it's all good.  If I seem even remotely negative toward him, he explodes into narcissistic rage.  The last time we were together with friends, he had to leave early because he was so enraged.

He's not a very attractive person -- see my earlier posts for details -- and hasn't been able to secure any new supply since he broke up with me.  It is fascinating to watch how he copes with this.  He stalks me, checking on my social media* about 2-3 times per day, to find out where I am and who I'm with.  He tells himself that I still want him and he could have me back at any time, though he only acts to check on it when something contradicts this fantasy.  He is so desperate for narcissistic supply that he will risk being in my presence and the presence of my friends even though most of us now regard him as a creep.  He just pretends nothing happened and shows up, hoping that no one will be rude enough to insult him or bring up what he's done. 

He maintains his PPO threat against me so that he can make me go away in short order if I cause him more narcissistic injury.

All in all, he's being pretty meticulous about how he manages his last little shred of supply.  This is one seriously hapless and desperate narcissist.

The only reason I'm doing this is so that he knows that he can't control me by making me stay home.

*It's not Facebook where he stalks me.  I have no idea how you can tell if someone checks Facebook, but the site we are both still on shows how often people visit, so it's really easy to see that he is looking for me.

Anyway, wish me luck, because heaven knows I'll need it.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I'm going to get daring and have some minor contact with my ex next Saturday.  I'm having dinner with him and a group of friends in a restaurant.  He is aware that I am coming and has not backed out.

If you've been following my posts, you know that the last time I saw him, he threatened me with a PPO for looking at him the wrong way.

I have come to the conclusion that my ex is primarily a narcissist, and fears narcissistic injury far more than he fears abandonment.  He only shows up when he hears that I'm dating someone else, as if to check on the availability of his supply.  He can't quite let me get away, but he also won't get close enough to me to risk narcissistic injury.  He will maybe say hello to me, and lurk in my general vicinity, until I pay attention to him.  As long as the attention is positive or nonexistent, it's all good.  If I seem even remotely negative toward him, he explodes into narcissistic rage.  The last time we were together with friends, he had to leave early because he was so enraged.

He's not a very attractive person -- see my earlier posts for details -- and hasn't been able to secure any new supply since he broke up with me.  It is fascinating to watch how he copes with this.  He stalks me, checking on my social media* about 2-3 times per day, to find out where I am and who I'm with.  He tells himself that I still want him and he could have me back at any time, though he only acts to check on it when something contradicts this fantasy.  He is so desperate for narcissistic supply that he will risk being in my presence and the presence of my friends even though most of us now regard him as a creep.  He just pretends nothing happened and shows up, hoping that no one will be rude enough to insult him or bring up what he's done. 

He maintains his PPO threat against me so that he can make me go away in short order if I cause him more narcissistic injury.

All in all, he's being pretty meticulous about how he manages his last little shred of supply.  This is one seriously hapless and desperate narcissist.

The only reason I'm doing this is so that he knows that he can't control me by making me stay home.

*It's not Facebook where he stalks me.  I have no idea how you can tell if someone checks Facebook, but the site we are both still on shows how often people visit, so it's really easy to see that he is looking for me.

Anyway, wish me luck, because heaven knows I'll need it.

[kc sunshine]

Good luck to you next week!

Can you explain a little more about NPD/BPD and how you distinguish between them? Also, how do the two interact? How did you come to think that your ex might also have NPD? The things that might lead me to think that my dBPDex might also have narcissistic traits are the following:

* looks in mirrors all the time (noticeably so)

* self-centered

* has a sense that she can "make people fall in love with her" (her words)

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Hi GEM,

Just want to ask you to clarify that your ex does NOT have an existing PPO on you?  But rather that he has threatened to get a PPO?  Is that correct?

Just want to make sure that this dinner will not pose a legal problem  or potential legal problem for you.  Could he use this dinner to substantiate the need for a PPO?  Especially if it doesn't go well.  Or even if it does go well in the moment, but if/when he dysregulates  after the fact.  Might he be able to use this against you if he is stockpiling "evidence?"

Just a question of caution.  I have learned the hard way that things are often not as they appear with my ex.  I feel certain that were I ever to see him again that he would lay some kind of trap that could be used then or later.  I very much hope this is not true for you, GEM.

Be smart and good luck!

RML

[Lonely_Astro]

Good luck to you next week!

Can you explain a little more about NPD/BPD and how you distinguish between them? Also, how do the two interact? How did you come to think that your ex might also have NPD? The things that might lead me to think that my dBPDex might also have narcissistic traits are the following:

* looks in mirrors all the time (noticeably so)

* self-centered

* has a sense that she can "make people fall in love with her" (her words)

BPD and NPD often "look alike" on their face.  They are classified as Cluster B disorders in the DSM.  There is overlap when people have a cluster b disorder, as each person is an individual.  Plus, typically, most of them (like normal groups) don't fit neatly in a single category.  The biggest difference is how they see entitlement.  NPDs believe they deserve everything, whereas BPDs believe they deserve nothing at all.

With that said, J (my ex... .diagnosed BPD) has heavy NPD traits, like:

- She has to always be the center of attention.  For example, if you mentioned you've done something, she would immediately follow up with "yeah, I've done that before and... .", then she would add how her experience was better than yours. 

- She constantly put down people's appearance, even strangers on the street.  She is obsessed with her looks (has to always have her nails/toes done, hair/makeup, clothes have to be "in style" with her 'personality', etc). 

-  She could not stop taking photos of herself and posting them to Instagram, snap chat (all the time!), or stay out of a mirror.  When we went on a date, it took her at least 2 hours to get ready because she "couldn't leave the house looking like a mess".  I didn't care if she wore a burlap bag with no makeup, she was (and frankly still is) beautiful to me.

- She constantly would make statements about how "every guy I talk to wants to get in my pants" or "all anyone wants from me is what's between my legs" and so on.  Regardless of the fact she dressed in such ways to invoke desire from the opposite sex. 

- She always seemed to feel entitled to something and if she didn't get it, you certainly knew about it.  She was mad because her brother got a promotion at his work and he was making way more money then her ("how come he gets lucky like that and I work just as hard as him and make less money!  That's not fair!".  She would often get mad when she saw "someone beneath" her that had a kid.  Allegedly she had miscarried during her marriage and when she saw "a dirtbag" with a kid, she would say something like "See?  People like that get to have kids, but I don't. It's so unfair.  It's not right!"  Keep in mind, she often switched opinions on whether she wanted a family or not... .which was confusing to me.

-  She always was shopping.  She would claim to be "flat broke", yet would always being talking about this designer outfit she bought.  Granted, sometimes I think it was a lie because she wore the same outfits, but she was hooked on the appearance of designer clothing at the very least.

-  She is absolutely obsessed with how others perceive her.  I mean, everyone has to like her.  She couldn't stand the idea of someone thinking ill of her.  She gives the appearance that she is a bubbly, energetic, wholesome, sweet, down to earth, girl next door type.  The truth is, she is far from that.

Could she be both Bpd and Npd?  Sure.  Or there could be a lot of overlap.  The biggest thing to take from that is she is Cluster B, regardless.  That puts her squarely in the ranks of ASPD (aka psychopath/sociopath), BPD, NPD, and HPD.  It's not uncommon to have traits of some or all of them.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My opinion on the NPD is based on the fact that my ex doesn't seem to fear being alone or abandonment.

I dated someone with very clear abandonment fears prior to this, and that man would bend over backwards to be accepted, liked, and to do anything you expected him to do.  He was incapable of saying no to anyone, for any reason, because he would be disliked and rejected.  Criticism would make him withdraw or collapse inward, but he was never mean to anyone, because that would result in rejection.

The ex that I post about here does not have that problem.  He is not interested in accommodating other people.  He very readily says no to people who ask things of him, and would dismiss my needs as "childish" and threaten to leave the relationship if I pressed the issue.  

Much is made of narcissists being "grandiose" or in love with themselves, but that can be misleading.  My ex loves performing on stage and being a spectacle, but hates looking at pictures of himself.  In other words, he likes his *reflection* when other people like him, but he doesn't actually admire himself.

He played in a local band for many years, and frankly, I doubt they were very good.  When he posts things on his band's Facebook page, he gets maybe two or three likes, if that.  But he keeps on posting and pretending that they're this awesome rock band.  So there's an element of pretending there -- he imagines them to be something that they aren't.  That's the False Self of the narcissist.  The same way that he can paper over the unpopularity of his band, he imagines himself to be a very kind, tolerant, and generous person.  In reality, he's fairly selfish and not very good at thinking about the needs of other people.  But woe to the person who points this out.  Rather than looking inward and learning and growing from criticism, he "kills the messenger" instead, devaluing the person and eventually making them go away.

He's got a problem with me because I genuinely liked him and provided him with excellent supply.  We had a lot in common and my praise and admiration of his abilities were real.  It frustrates him when I begin to creep away and show that I'm over him, because he feels a very deep emptiness.  But getting close to me is risky, too, because I called him out for what he really is, and I know the evil he's really capable of.  I can bring these things up at any time.  So being around me feels a bit like having a ferocious wild animal for a pet.  Because my admiration of him was so legitimate, it also makes any criticism that much more powerful to him.  So I am a liability to him, but one he is willing to tolerate to some degree to get supply.

Seeing him in person is very risky, because one wrong move will make him think I'm being critical, and he will go into a narcissistic rage.

I have been e-mailing lawyers this week to make sure he can't do anything to jeopardize my job.  No, he doesn't have a PPO against me.  He may try to use anything I do to justify one if he dysregulates, but he told a friend of mine IN WRITING that he is fine with seeing me at this dinner.  It would be pretty hard for him to get a PPO against me if we have it in writing that he consented to seeing me beforehand.  Besides that, absolutely nothing I have done to him fits my state's legal definition of harassment, which is the standard for getting a PPO.  My other ex is a lawyer, and a good friend

[SummerStorm]

Good luck to you next week!

Can you explain a little more about NPD/BPD and how you distinguish between them? Also, how do the two interact? How did you come to think that your ex might also have NPD? The things that might lead me to think that my dBPDex might also have narcissistic traits are the following:

* looks in mirrors all the time (noticeably so)

* self-centered

* has a sense that she can "make people fall in love with her" (her words)

BPD and NPD often "look alike" on their face.  They are classified as Cluster B disorders in the DSM.  There is overlap when people have a cluster b disorder, as each person is an individual.  Plus, typically, most of them (like normal groups) don't fit neatly in a single category.  The biggest difference is how they see entitlement.  NPDs believe they deserve everything, whereas BPDs believe they deserve nothing at all.

With that said, J (my ex... .diagnosed BPD) has heavy NPD traits, like:

- She has to always be the center of attention.  For example, if you mentioned you've done something, she would immediately follow up with "yeah, I've done that before and... .", then she would add how her experience was better than yours.  

- She constantly put down people's appearance, even strangers on the street.  She is obsessed with her looks (has to always have her nails/toes done, hair/makeup, clothes have to be "in style" with her 'personality', etc).  

- She constantly would make statements about how "every guy I talk to wants to get in my pants" or "all anyone wants from me is what's between my legs" and so on.  Regardless of the fact she dressed in such ways to invoke desire from the opposite sex.  

- She always seemed to feel entitled to something and if she didn't get it, you certainly knew about it.  She was mad because her brother got a promotion at his work and he was making way more money then her ("how come he gets lucky like that and I work just as hard as him and make less money!  That's not fair!".  She would often get mad when she saw "someone beneath" her that had a kid.  Allegedly she had miscarried during her marriage and when she saw "a dirtbag" with a kid, she would say something like "See?  People like that get to have kids, but I don't. It's so unfair.  It's not right!"  Keep in mind, she often switched opinions on whether she wanted a family or not... .which was confusing to me.

-  She always was shopping.  She would claim to be "flat broke", yet would always being talking about this designer outfit she bought.  Granted, sometimes I think it was a lie because she wore the same outfits, but she was hooked on the appearance of designer clothing at the very least.

-  She is absolutely obsessed with how others perceive her.  I mean, everyone has to like her.  She couldn't stand the idea of someone thinking ill of her.  She gives the appearance that she is a bubbly, energetic, wholesome, sweet, down to earth, girl next door type.  The truth is, she is far from that.

Could she be both Bpd and Npd?  Sure.  Or there could be a lot of overlap.  The biggest thing to take from that is she is Cluster B, regardless.  That puts her squarely in the ranks of ASPD (aka psychopath/sociopath), BPD, NPD, and HPD.  It's not uncommon to have traits of some or all of them.

Lonely_Astro,

She sounds a lot like my BPD friend.  She was formally diagnosed with BPD but has a lot of NPD traits.  She once told her mom's friend, whom she was staying with, that she didn't parent her autistic son correctly.  The friend called BPD friend's mom and said, "I guess all of the books we've read and research we done doesn't hold a candle to what she knows about everything!"  She started out as pre-med and took one semester of biology, and she thinks that qualifies her to give medical advice.  

[Lonely_Astro]

Lonely_Astro,

She sounds a lot like my BPD friend.  She was formally diagnosed with BPD but has a lot of NPD traits.  She once told her mom's friend, whom she was staying with, that she didn't parent her autistic son correctly.  The friend called BPD friend's mom and said, "I guess all of the books we've read and research we done doesn't hold a candle to what she knows about everything!"  She started out as pre-med and took one semester of biology, and she thinks that qualifies her to give medical advice.  

It was often quite confusing to me.  I mean, she would say some of the nastiest things about people when they weren't around (I often wondered what she would say about me to others).  The funny part was she used to run down a couple of female co-workers all the time, yet she is now besties with them.  I did notice that one of them is a form of supply to her (a shopping buddy and "helps her out" with work).  Boy, does she have no idea who she's befriending.

The part that makes me feel she has very strong NPD traits is one time she alluded to me about suicide.  It was the only time I have ever heard her make that kind of statement.  I immediately said something to her about it and she followed that up with "you know I would never do something like that, I like myself to much."  At the time I found that an odd statement from a BPD, it sounded more like a NPD to me.

Another thing that always got me was how she would vehemently fight against a negative (perceived) view from someone.  For instance, the rumor was she was "easy", a "slut", or "a wh**e".  I even heard the comment recently that "all you have to do is ask and she'll come up off it".  She never appeared that way to me, ever.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  Has she been used by people?  I'm sure she has.  Has she used people?  Absolutely, that I know is a fact... .I was one of them.

But, I come back to one thing: it's her choice.  She is very well aware something "isn't right" with her, she just doesnt seem to care to change it.  It's her moms fault or the worlds fault she is the way she is.  She claims to be in DBT, but IF she is, she isn't taking it serious.  I'd be interested in knowing if her T (IF she has one) knew about me at all.  She claims her T does, but there was conflicting things about that.  For instance, she once said her T told her we needed to breakup because we were bad for each other.  Um, ok.  I've never met a T that would say such a thing without ever speaking to the other person (J refused to let me go to T with her, btw, when I asked if we could to work on our r/s).  So, if the T did know about me and did say that, then theres no telling what J told her about me.  J also claims to have journal entries that were written recently that go back all the way to when we started a year ago.  She claims her T has told her to give me those entires and at Christmas when we exchanged gifts, J told me she had them but wasn't done with them and she would give them to me when she finished.  The truth is, I'll never see them because they don't exist (and would I want to, even if they did?).

Sorry for the off topic verbiage.  My thoughts just started running together there.

The best advice for KC is not to obsess over whether it was BPD or NPD or both.  The fact is, they are disordered with a cluster b and (for all intents and purposes) incapable of having a meaningful, sustained, and fulfilling r/s with anyone.

[SummerStorm]

Lonely_Astro,

She sounds a lot like my BPD friend.  She was formally diagnosed with BPD but has a lot of NPD traits.  She once told her mom's friend, whom she was staying with, that she didn't parent her autistic son correctly.  The friend called BPD friend's mom and said, "I guess all of the books we've read and research we done doesn't hold a candle to what she knows about everything!"  She started out as pre-med and took one semester of biology, and she thinks that qualifies her to give medical advice.  

It was often quite confusing to me.  I mean, she would say some of the nastiest things about people when they weren't around (I often wondered what she would say about me to others).  The funny part was she used to run down a couple of female co-workers all the time, yet she is now besties with them.  I did notice that one of them is a form of supply to her (a shopping buddy and "helps her out" with work).  Boy, does she have no idea who she's befriending. 

Same here.  Mine tells stories about everyone.  After they broke up, her ex told me that he never knew what to believe about anyone.  Mostly, she just told him that I'm "crazy." 

The part that makes me feel she has very strong NPD traits is one time she alluded to me about suicide.  It was the only time I have ever heard her make that kind of statement.  I immediately said something to her about it and she followed that up with "you know I would never do something like that, I like myself to much."  At the time I found that an odd statement from a BPD, it sounded more like a NPD to me.

This is where they differ.  Mine has attempted suicide twice.  The second time was half-hearted and probably more for attention than anything, but the first time was pretty serious.  Also, mine has had moments where she's told me that she's a waste.  She recently told her mom that she knows she's a failure.  And she told her ex several times that he should have let her die instead of calling the ambulance.

Another thing that always got me was how she would vehemently fight against a negative (perceived) view from someone.  For instance, the rumor was she was "easy", a "slut", or "a wh**e".  I even heard the comment recently that "all you have to do is ask and she'll come up off it".  She never appeared that way to me, ever.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  Has she been used by people?  I'm sure she has.  Has she used people?  Absolutely, that I know is a fact... .I was one of them. 

I recently sent her the "see no evil" monkey emoji and then made a joke about how it's really a monkey playing peek-a-boo.  She replied, "I thought you were calling me evil."  Later, I said I was stupid when we were friends before and were having an affair.  What I meant was that I made stupid decisions, but she took it to mean that I was stupid for being friends with her, and she got offended.  Last year, I implied that she has had way too many sexual partners, and she said, "You make it sound like I'm some wh**e.  I'm offended by that."

So, I think she has some NPD traits, but that they act more as a defense mechanism, to cover up how badly she feels about herself. 

[Lonely_Astro]

Summer,

Ive read that its rare for disorders to be co-morbid (but possible).  Its more likely that they have traits and they overlap.  J is officially diagnosed as BPD.  But, I do see NPD and ASPD traits in her.  Many people have said to me (of course, they didn't know we were together) that she seemed so self-absorbed and narcissistic.  I would sort of divert the conversation at that point, but that goes to show you that others see the N in her.

After 2 weeks of NC, we talked again for about a week.  During that week, it was like talking to a different person.  I understand now why.  She has a fresh suitor and no longer needs my supply.  I was merely an object to her during this past year.  Did she love me?  I guess in her way, at some point, she did.  I guess I don't know now.  Even if she did, her love is different than mine.  We have since went silent again and it will probably stay that way.  After all, I can't be friends with her (nor do I want to be).  My wounds are still fresh (and deep).  Of course, she would tell you the reason she isn't talking to me is because she "doesnt want to bother" me or I "probably hate her to much" to want to talk to her.  But, thats an excuse, like everything else.

That week of re-talking to her was painful.  I found out a lot of stuff I wish I hadn't.  Plus, some distortion on her part.  I had never seen her so sociopathic BPD before.  She literally was indifferent with me.  As if I had never really been in her life at all.  She, for all intents and purposes, sees me as the bad guy.  She said "I don't know why I feel better, I don't want to because of all the bad stuff I did to you but I can't dwell on it."  Then came the roses.  I was so hurt by them that I chose not to speak to her again... .probably forever.  I won't say I won't ever speak to her again, but it won't be for a long time.

I was an object to be used, nothing more.

[SummerStorm]

Summer,

Ive read that its rare for disorders to be co-morbid (but possible).  Its more likely that they have traits and they overlap.  J is officially diagnosed as BPD.  But, I do see NPD and ASPD traits in her.  Many people have said to me (of course, they didn't know we were together) that she seemed so self-absorbed and narcissistic.  I would sort of divert the conversation at that point, but that goes to show you that others see the N in her.

After 2 weeks of NC, we talked again for about a week.  :)uring that week, it was like talking to a different person.  I understand now why.  She has a fresh suitor and no longer needs my supply.  I was merely an object to her during this past year.  :)id she love me?  I guess in her way, at some point, she did.  I guess I don't know now.  Even if she did, her love is different than mine.  We have since went silent again and it will probably stay that way.  After all, I can't be friends with her (nor do I want to be).  My wounds are still fresh (and deep).  Of course, she would tell you the reason she isn't talking to me is because she "doesnt want to bother" me or I "probably hate her to much" to want to talk to her.  But, thats an excuse, like everything else.

That week of re-talking to her was painful.  I found out a lot of stuff I wish I hadn't.  Plus, some distortion on her part.  I had never seen her so sociopathic BPD before.  She literally was indifferent with me.  As if I had never really been in her life at all.  She, for all intents and purposes, sees me as the bad guy.  She said "I don't know why I feel better, I don't want to because of all the bad stuff I did to you but I can't dwell on it."  Then came the roses.  I was so hurt by them that I chose not to speak to her again... .probably forever.  I won't say I won't ever speak to her again, but it won't be for a long time.

I was an object to be used, nothing more.

I know what you mean, about the indifference.  I experienced it a lot back in August and September.  Then, November's contact started off way too emotional.  We've evened out a bit.  Since then, I've found out all about her past, and it's so much worse than I thought.  So now, I really have no intention of being anything other than her friend.  

She sent me a picture today on Snapchat, and she just doesn't look attractive at all anymore.  She's one of those people who will look 50 when she's 30.  Just really rough around the edges, you know?  It has to be from all of the drugs and alcohol, along with constant weight fluctuations.  

But she's definitely BPD.  She's always very concerned with makeup and her appearance, but I think it has more to do with her thinking that she's ugly without it.  There's a lot of low self-esteem there.