A gentle challenge for people like me who have a habit of complaining.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am reading John Welwood's Perfect Love, Imperfect Relationships and here is a quote:

In working with couples, I commonly find that one or both partherns have trouble stating their desire clearly, or even recognizing what it is that they want.  When I invite them to express their wanting directly, what often comes out is complaint, demand, evasiveness, or speechmaking.  They can easily say what their partner is doing wronng or failing to give them.  But when it comes to expressing their actual desire, there is uncertainty or hesitation.

Why is it so much easier to complain, collapse, make demands, or attack than to openly express what we want?  The answer is simple:  Complaint and demand provide a defensive shield to hide behind, while desire makes us feel exposed.  Letting others see how much we want their love means letting down our defenses and baring our soul.  This is even more difficult if our sentry is constantly on guard against the bad other who isn't there for us. Thus it's not surprising that exposing our desire for love is not something we want to do.  It's much easier to play it safe by focusing on how others don't give us what we want.



Well, I am an expert complainer.  I could write paragraphs or whole essays of complaint, and most of it would probably be accurate!  However, I think the above description of the purpose served by complaint (and not just about past partners... .friends, family, former therapists... .) is accurate for me.

I tried looking at a recent complaint I have about someone... .and just dropping the complaint for a moment, looking for the longing underneath it.  (Notice this is not a CBT "thought stopping" or positive attitude exercise, it is more of an "emotional translation".)  And I had an unexpected realization.  What I really want is to express my desire to be closer to people. 

So, does anyone want to try it with me for a while?  Whenever you catch yourself complaining (yeah, I know, becoming aware that you're doing it might be half the battle, maybe ask your friends to let you know, and promise you will not be too annoyed with them), look for the desire or the longing underneath the complaining.  You do not need to share your desire with the person you desire it from (I add that because especially for people who grew up with emotional neglect or disordered parents, admitting directly what you want might feel really scary)

[eeks]

I am reading John Welwood's Perfect Love, Imperfect Relationships and here is a quote:

In working with couples, I commonly find that one or both partherns have trouble stating their desire clearly, or even recognizing what it is that they want.  When I invite them to express their wanting directly, what often comes out is complaint, demand, evasiveness, or speechmaking.  They can easily say what their partner is doing wronng or failing to give them.  But when it comes to expressing their actual desire, there is uncertainty or hesitation.

Why is it so much easier to complain, collapse, make demands, or attack than to openly express what we want?  The answer is simple:  Complaint and demand provide a defensive shield to hide behind, while desire makes us feel exposed.  Letting others see how much we want their love means letting down our defenses and baring our soul.  This is even more difficult if our sentry is constantly on guard against the bad other who isn't there for us. Thus it's not surprising that exposing our desire for love is not something we want to do.  It's much easier to play it safe by focusing on how others don't give us what we want.



Well, I am an expert complainer.  I could write paragraphs or whole essays of complaint, and most of it would probably be accurate!  However, I think the above description of the purpose served by complaint (and not just about past partners... .friends, family, former therapists... .) is accurate for me.

I tried looking at a recent complaint I have about someone... .and just dropping the complaint for a moment, looking for the longing underneath it.  (Notice this is not a CBT "thought stopping" or positive attitude exercise, it is more of an "emotional translation".)  And I had an unexpected realization.  What I really want is to express my desire to be closer to people. 

So, does anyone want to try it with me for a while?  Whenever you catch yourself complaining (yeah, I know, becoming aware that you're doing it might be half the battle, maybe ask your friends to let you know, and promise you will not be too annoyed with them), look for the desire or the longing underneath the complaining.  You do not need to share your desire with the person you desire it from (I add that because especially for people who grew up with emotional neglect or disordered parents, admitting directly what you want might feel really scary)

[Cat Familiar]

This is a really good topic. Thank you for posting this. I remember when I was in grad school for a counseling degree that I never finished, someone pointed out to me that I was great at expressing what I didn't want, but that I was unable to express what I did want.

For me, I think complaining has served as sort of an identity. Like I'm not "this" but someone else is and I don't like it.

There's a simplistic train of thought that suggests we complain about things within ourselves that we project outward upon others. I don't necessarily buy that argument, but what does seem to be true is that there are definitely underlying wounds related to the things we complain about.

[Panda39]

Hi eeks,

This strikes a cord with me too. 

John Welwood's Perfect Love, Imperfect Relationships and here is a quote:

Why is it so much easier to complain, collapse, make demands, or attack than to openly express what we want?  The answer is simple:  Complaint and demand provide a defensive shield to hide behind, while desire makes us feel exposed.  Letting others see how much we want their love means letting down our defenses and baring our soul.  This is even more difficult if our sentry is constantly on guard against the bad other who isn't there for us. Thus it's not surprising that exposing our desire for love is not something we want to do.  It's much easier to play it safe by focusing on how others don't give us what we want.

I have been having a difficult time connecting with my new boss and yes I have been doing my share of complaining   I reached out to a counselor through my EAP (Employee Assistance Program) and she gave me an exercise.  First to write down the things I need from my new boss and then write down what to ask boss to get those things. Can I also add that asking for things that I need is very hard for me in general and even harder when it's my new boss! 

While writing what I wanted and my questions to ask my boss.  I realized that I'm feeling left out at work, then I automatically go to the negative thoughts... .I'm needy, this is work and I shouldn't be needy at work, it's unprofessional, my needs are unimportant.  In my mind I then think why do this she won't do what I need her to do, I'm the needy peon why would she do something for me she has better things to do and supporting me isn't her style and not her job. 

Then I had the realization that this has been my thinking since childhood and particularly with someone in authority over me (my mom).  No one cares about my needs, I'm unimportant, my feelings are unimportant or stupid, no one will meet my needs, I can't ask, I can't depend on anyone... .no wonder I was in the co-dependent marriage for 20 years.   

Complaining for me is being trapped between my inability (fear of being hurt) to ask for what I need and what I need. Trust is also a part of it.  When I trust I can ask, I feel safe to ask, but often don't anyway... .self esteem... .it always comes back to that. Will I ever see myself as worthy 

So the desire behind my complaining is:  I want my boss to like me, think that I'm a valuable member of the team, and see me.  I have been feeling very disconnected and rather invisible.

Thank you for letting me share and process I appreciate it.

Panda39

[thisagain]

Thanks for sharing, Eeks! Lots of great food for thought here.

For those who've read High Conflict Couple (which I highly recommend even if your BPD relationship is over), it reminds me of the segment on looking behind judgment and anger to express the primary underlying feeling. If your spouse is working late, you can form a judgment and get angry about how she cares more about work than you, then snipe at her when she gets home and create conflict. Or you can connect with the underlying longing to spend more time with her, so then when she gets home, you give a big hug and express how glad you are to see her. I didn't explain it as well. Read the book.

Panda, I've struggled with those thought patterns from childhood too and am actually in a similar situation at work. Feeling invisible and unappreciated, but struggling to stand up for myself. I worked on it a lot in therapy, but had some setbacks from the two years with my BPD ex.

For a while I did a lot of complaining to my friend about how my boss doesn't treat me like a fellow professional. It was keeping me from even getting work done because I knew I'd have to submit it to my boss for review. Lately I've been trying to act more like a fellow professional (rather than being so deferential), and defend the validity of my own professional judgment. So far I'm seeing really positive results, my boss has been much more respectful and given me positive feedback and more leeway to work on my own.

Good luck with your boss! You can do it

[fromheeltoheal]

Oh yes, I've spent more than a minute or two complaining, although I've known why for a long time.  There's how things are and there's how we want them to be, if those two match, great, and if they're different we have a choice to make: change it, accept it, or complain about it.  While changing something and accepting something, which is really changing too, changing how we interpret something, what we make it mean, what we decide to believe, while those two are proactive, complaining is reactionary: things are not the way we want them and we aren't able to change it, so we complain, a powerless place really, and my belief is if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem.  So for me it goes back to fight or flight: if things aren't the way we want them, fight to change them, if we can't, don't have the courage, don't have the strength, we can then choose to accept whatever it is, or leave.  Proactive action is always better than unwilling acceptance and btching about it, and some days are better than others... .

Borderline sidebar: my ex complained constantly, but it was only a little related to the above.  She wasn't happy in general and didn't feel she could change it, yes, so therefore complain, but there was more to it for her.  Complaining was a manipulation and control tactic, had me tiptoeing around trying to 'fix' everything, dance on them eggshells I did, for a while, until it was clear she was just fcking with me, so I came up with things like "get happy or go away" which as you might expect caused an explosion.  How do you deal with that?  Try to have a real conversation about real issues, on the way to bolstering that thing between us called a relationship.  Nope, not an option, met with projection and more complaining, so following my own advice I left.  But what about all the stuff, the missing her, the addiction, after I left?  Well, that was the project, and although I don't miss her anymore, the reasons why I did continue to be the focus... .

[Grey Kitty]

My wife and I once were given two of these purple bracelets, which you were supposed to move from one wrist to the other every time you caught yourself complaining, criticizing, or gossiping. (I don't really get the gossip issue, so didn't worry about that part much)

www.complaintfreeworld.biz/

It was a wonderful practice to make yourself more aware of when you do criticize or complain. I did it fairly seriously for a few months, and like myself a LOT better for it. Perhaps I should try a refresher for a while... .

The best part is that if you catch somebody else wearing a bracelet complaining, you can tell them to move theirs... .but you have to move yours too, because you just criticized them 

[fromheeltoheal]

It was a wonderful practice to make yourself more aware of when you do criticize or complain. I did it fairly seriously for a few months, and like myself a LOT better for it. Perhaps I should try a refresher for a while... .

That's very cool GK, you've inspired me.  Not criticizing, complaining or gossiping is acting with integrity, and focusing on bolstering that integrity always makes us feel better about ourselves, thanks for the reminder.

All criticism is not created equal though: constructive criticism can be appropriate, and it's all about intent.  If we all giving someone feedback when we see them doing something that is not in their best interest, because they can't see it or are denying it, from a loving place and with good rapport, that would be a good thing, while slamming someone because we're unhappy, not so much.

[Blimblam]

so basically complaining is not a sign of someone thinking incorrectly but that they feel oppressed because they are acting on behalf of someone elses desire and not their own?

So then we shouldn't tell people the proper way to be because then we are oppressing them with our desires. 

Well then really isn't complaining the only way to really get to be in possession of ones own desire it is just the problem is one person starts telling the other person how to perceive reality like they are some kind of expert of what consists of reality?

It seems like complaining is the authentic position then.  It seems like the solution is to complain more! and to really start listening when someone is complaining and create an environment in which complaining is acceptable and it is acknowledged that when someone starts complaining it is because they are being oppressed.

[fromheeltoheal]

so basically complaining is not a sign of someone thinking incorrectly but that they feel oppressed because they are acting on behalf of someone elses desire and not their own?

So then we shouldn't tell people the proper way to be because then we are oppressing them with our desires. 

Well then really isn't complaining the only way to really get to be in possession of ones own desire it is just the problem is one person starts telling the other person how to perceive reality like they are some kind of expert of what consists of reality?

It seems like complaining is the authentic position then.  It seems like the solution is to complain more! and to really start listening when someone is complaining and create an environment in which complaining is acceptable and it is acknowledged that when someone starts complaining it is because they are being oppressed.

I think I get your point Hondo, that complaining can be used as a tool to get to what's really going on, which I agree with to an extent, use complaining as a flag that indicates someone has something going on that needs to be talked about, and in that case it's temporary, where getting stuck in complain mode is more permanent, yes?

Do you or your ex do a lot of complaining?

[steelwork]

So, does anyone want to try it with me for a while?  Whenever you catch yourself complaining (yeah, I know, becoming aware that you're doing it might be half the battle, maybe ask your friends to let you know, and promise you will not be too annoyed with them), look for the desire or the longing underneath the complaining.  You do not need to share your desire with the person you desire it from (I add that because especially for people who grew up with emotional neglect or disordered parents, admitting directly what you want might feel really scary)

I'm in!

Eeks, we were talking on the parent/siblings/in-laws board about problems with expressing anger (or I was), and I mentioned that I feel like I'm good at expressing certain kinds of anger, like venting about my boss, etc. I kind of bookmarked that thought for further exploration (different kinds of anger and why some are easier for me to express). I think is relevant. I have a hard time expressing anger about emotional expectations and needs. This seems like a good place to start: identifying the emotional underpinnings of a complaint.

[Blimblam]

so basically complaining is not a sign of someone thinking incorrectly but that they feel oppressed because they are acting on behalf of someone elses desire and not their own?

So then we shouldn't tell people the proper way to be because then we are oppressing them with our desires. 

Well then really isn't complaining the only way to really get to be in possession of ones own desire it is just the problem is one person starts telling the other person how to perceive reality like they are some kind of expert of what consists of reality?

It seems like complaining is the authentic position then.  It seems like the solution is to complain more! and to really start listening when someone is complaining and create an environment in which complaining is acceptable and it is acknowledged that when someone starts complaining it is because they are being oppressed.

I think I get your point Hondo, that complaining can be used as a tool to get to what's really going on, which I agree with to an extent, use complaining as a flag that indicates someone has something going on that needs to be talked about, and in that case it's temporary, where getting stuck in complain mode is more permanent, yes?

Do you or your ex do a lot of complaining?

Well from how Eeks described it is just seemed like complaining is a symptom of not knowing what one desires so I made the connection that that must be because they are acting on behalf of someone elses desire and do not feel in possession of their own.

So if someone is stuck in complaining mode then they are probably acting on behalf of someone elses desires and not their own for as long as they have been stuck their. Who knows it could be since childhood and it seems like the longer someone has been stuck their the more difficult it will be for them to get to the point that they are in possession of their own desire.

I don't know I don't complain too often because I have been punished for complaining often in the past so I feel guilty for complaining when I do. Then told  things like I should foster a feeling of gratitude for all that I have, by others. Or that my problem is I just need to accept the way things are and the problem is that I feel the need to complain. In both those scenerios I feel like the people telling me that consider me as an idiot and that is why I should act on behalf of their desires.

In retrospect in light of Eeks post maybe what they were doing is abusive and they were just too narcissistic to realize it.

I don't reprimand my gf when she complains I typically just ask her "what do you want from me?"

[eeks]

Well from how Eeks described it is just seemed like complaining is a symptom of not knowing what one desires so I made the connection that that must be because they are acting on behalf of someone elses desire and do not feel in possession of their own.

That's one possibility.  When a person has grown up with chronic emotional invalidation from their parents and/or family members, that can lead to being less emotionally self-aware, not knowing what one wants.

I interpreted the book quote that I shared as the point of view that complaining can be a way of trying to get what you want while avoiding the vulnerability of a true request.  (The person might say no, etc.)  I thought that was true for me.  It may not be true for you.  Check it out yourself.

Any book that I've read that mentions relationship conflict, refers to the "one partner demands, the other withdraws" pattern as a common escalator of conflict. 

That said, with the original post I realize I was not very clear... .I had in my own mind, the situation where I am complaining about past situations in family or intimate relationships where something happened that I still feel hurt about, and there are either good reasons not to talk to the person about it, or I've tried and nothing was resolved.  The message was not "complaining is bad" or "don't complain", but "try to figure out what the need is underneath the complaint". 

For me the shift was from "You did not do ______ for me" to "I need _____".  Again, this is entirely to do with how I think about past situations in my head.  The need is still not met (I believe we can't meet all our needs on our own, we have interpersonal needs as well) but somehow there is less tension around it when I become aware of the "I need _____"

And if you don't like the word need, you can say desire, want, long for... .whatever you feel is applicable.

Nothing here is intended to say that you should not express needs or set boundaries in relationships.

I don't know I don't complain too often because I have been punished for complaining often in the past so I feel guilty for complaining when I do. Then told  things like I should foster a feeling of gratitude for all that I have, by others. Or that my problem is I just need to accept the way things are and the problem is that I feel the need to complain. In both those scenerios I feel like the people telling me that consider me as an idiot and that is why I should act on behalf of their desires.

I can't say whether they are trying to get you to act on behalf of your desires, but these responses certainly lack empathy and sensitivity, and I would not appreciate hearing them if I was feeling hurt or ashamed about something. 

I don't reprimand my gf when she complains I typically just ask her "what do you want from me?"

That's kind of where I was going with all this

[Blimblam]

  The message was not "complaining is bad" or "don't complain", but "try to figure out what the need is underneath the complaint". 

That's kind of where I was going with all this

jesus, now that is a message.

[Suzn]

Great thread eeks. I'll take your challenge. I've worked on identifying my needs and not complaining for a long time now. Focusing more so on what it is I need and growing my confidence to ask for it. I found in a lot of these scenarios I had to push past any fear of losing something or of somehow getting in trouble to gain that confidence to ask.

I don't know I don't complain too often because I have been punished for complaining often in the past so I feel guilty for complaining when I do. Then told  things like I should foster a feeling of gratitude for all that I have, by others. Or that my problem is I just need to accept the way things are and the problem is that I feel the need to complain. In both those scenerios I feel like the people telling me that consider me as an idiot and that is why I should act on behalf of their desires.

I can relate to what you said here Hondo. This was similar to my childhood. We were often times punished for complaining or made to feel ashamed of ourselves for wanting or needing something. To add to that more times than not our needs or emotions weren't identified rather it was always something else. You're tired, hungry, grumpy (you need a nap), etc... It's taken a lot of work to shut down my inner critic that tried so hard to convince me that I didn't need or deserve things. I have a whole thought train I make myself go through when I have complaints now, when I find myself getting upset about something. I'm more open to listening, asking for what I want or need and not always going on assumptions about what someone is going to say if I do and what someone else is thinking about me if I do.

For me, this has been an ongoing exercise in identifying my needs, my emotions, self control and not being afraid to ask for what I need or want if I can't provide it for myself. I can still get tripped up once in a while, I know I'm human.

I think interpersonal needs revolve around boundaries and respect for myself and for other people. I try to be understanding when someone I care about is just having a bad day and I can only hope they would do the same for me. I need and expect reciprocity in my relationships now, I didn't in the past. I have no problem re-evaluating relationships and distancing myself if I need to. And on the other hand working to trust myself on when to open up more and allow being closer.

[fromheeltoheal]

It's taken a lot of work to shut down my inner critic that tried so hard to convince me that I didn't need or deserve things.

Yep, and it ties into boundaries as you mentioned Suzn: if our boundaries suck the inner critic can get in cahoots with outer critics to gang up and make our lives suck entirely.  Been there.  And cultivation of the beliefs that I do deserve to be treated well, I do deserve reciprocal relationships, and I am worthy is the solution, hard work but the best kind, and coming from that frame it's easier to see who is welcome in our lives and who isn't.  Feels like a fresh start in the best of ways.  Also, a lot of times my inner critic has my best interests at heart, it just has shtty rapport skills and a big club; cultivating self-compassion has made the critic a little more compassionate too, an unexpected result.

Complaints are now just messages, signals of my discontent, and the reason for them is never much of a mystery for me, the challenge is what to do about it, build confidence usually, as you say, create the courage to have those difficult conversations, which may not resolve whatever it was with someone, but it never fails at totally removing the need to complain; I've said my peace.

[eeks]

Here's my update.  I seem to have moved into a very emotional, physical toggling or wrenching back and forth between "real me" (ok, I admit, how do we know who the "real us" is, it's different in every situation, I'm talking about the parts of me that were stifled by trauma or not approved of by my family growing up) and the self-protective, fearful work-hard-and-get-it-all-right-to-get-love mode.  I notice how quickly and easily I get triggered back into self-protection.  

So I haven't been as attentive to the complaining as I had intended, although I am sure I processed some indirectly as I went along.  I've moved more into emotions now, at least temporarily, which seems like a productive development to me.  

Anyone got any insights about complaining that they'd like to share?

[Cat Familiar]

Eeks, it sounds like good progress toward authenticity. 

Lately I've been watching myself complain and seeing it from a meta viewpoint. I can sort of benevolently smile at my childish self and want to hug her and soothe her. I feel that it's important that she voice her concerns but I needn't take them too seriously since all is currently well in her realm.

Things are better between me and my husband and that is due to me learning how not to take things personally and him actually making strides toward positive change on a variety of levels, from controlling his alcohol abuse to regularly attending therapy.

So my current complaints are merely a way to vent all those emotions I stuffed when our relationship was teetering on the edge of doom.