Wife avoiding me. What to do?

[Dragon72]

When I come back from work at about 6pm, my stay-at-home mom (her choice) uBPD wife serves me a plate of food, in spite of the fact that I always say ":)on't worry I'll do it".  As soon as she serves it, she goes upstairs, leaving me with our 2 year old son, she changes into pajamas.  She then stays in our son's room with the door shut until it's bedtime for our son at about 7.30pm when I bring him up to bed.  She insist on putting him to bed, including prayers.  I'm non-religious, but respect the fact that she is, so I leave her to it. 

After he falls asleep, she goes to sleep too in the same bed as him. 

Meanwhile I'm left on my own, practically from the moment I walk through the door from work, apart from the time I spend with my son.  I'm desperately lonely and I crave emotional interaction and adult conversation.  And I'm not even mentioning sex, which I consider important in a relationship.  If I try to raise the subject and express my emotional needs, her defences fly up and we get nowhere.

Should I just accept the situation and learn to live with it?

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[formflier]

Should I just accept the situation and learn to live with it?

Just my opinion, but no your shouldn't accept the situation and learn to live with it as a permanent solution.

What you should accept and focus on for the short term is that you control you and your actions.  I would also accept that this is the way she is "right now".

As you learn to accept this, relax a bit and gain some clarity on the situation you will be able to focus on your part of the relationship dynamic and then make choices about what you can do to change the relationship dynamic to a healthier place.

I have some similar stuff that has come back into my relationship after a long period of being absent.  As you well know, it's very frustrating. 

Is your wife at all open to counseling together?  Do you have a T?

Looking forward to getting to know you better and helping you on your journey with a pwBPD.

FF

[JQ]

Hello Dragon,

I would whole heartedly echo what Formflier is saying ... ."NO DO NOT ACCEPT THE SITUATION AS IS".  YOU need to take care of YOUR needs in any relationship too. YOU are responsible for your happiness ... .if YOU don't take care of YOU who will?  You said, "I'm desperately lonely and I crave emotional interaction and adult conversation."  If you feel this way now after a short period of time, how will you feel 12 months from now?  5 years from now? 20 years from now?


When you want to bring up subject about emotional needs, etc. she shuts down and goes to her happy place. Those who suffer from BPD are emotionally develop like a 3 yr old toddler and with your young child you can relate to this I'm sure. when he doesn't want to go to bed or do something else he throws a tantrum and one of two things happen, he gets his way or you enforce the boundary and he goes to bed. It's not much different for someone who has BPD, she doesn't want to talk about something that will cause her anxiety and throw a tantrum until you stop the conversation.

I would also agree with Formflier and asking if you and or her are seeing professional therapy?  Have you read the references at the top and to the right for insight ------->

You have started down this path of a journey of self discovery Dragon, we can't walk for you, when you stumble and you will, someone here will be there to hold out a hand to help you up, dust you off and straighten you up. Then it's YOUR choice to continue the path your on, take the path to the right to see where that leads you or sit backdown and do nothing ... .but in the end ... .the choice of what to do will be YOURS.

As FF said, i too look forward to getting to know you better and watching you on your journey .

J

[Dragon72]

Thanks both of you for your kind replies.

She's not open to therapy as she's never to blame for anything in her view.  In fact she often projects her babyishness onto me, accusing me of being the needy toddler because I express my emotional needs occasionally.

I am not in therapy either.  She controls the finances (which admittedly are tight) and would never agree to anything so "indulgent" for me.

To self-treat I keep a journal, come here, do lots of exercise including a weekly soccer game with coworkers, eat healthily and distract myself as much as I can during those evenings I spend alone with movies and books.

When I'm with other people, including my in-laws who are lovely, I'm actually a pretty happy-go-lucky positive guy.  It's just when I'm with her and her negativity, or alone with my thoughts that the black dog descends... .

[formflier]

 

Dragon72,

I think I remember popping in and out of a thread or two that you have written.  If I am mistaken, please let me know.

You will meet tons of people on these boards, many approach the issue from different angles.  Some will talk about emotions, some will talk about communications and some will talk about plans and "doing" things to make the r/s better.

I'm a retired Naval Aviator, so, don't be shocked that I'm about plans, execution (of strategy, not pwBPD,  ) and stamina.  I'm also pretty heavy on communications, probably a bit lacking in emotion, validation and all that.

Anyway, hopefully you can blend all the advice you are getting into something that you can make your own, that is authentic.

So, here comes the plan.

1.  Change nothing (for a while)

2.  I really want you to focus on a few things about your education here and make sure you understand the theory and importance of what you are doing.

3.  Quick review:  Education first, then act.  If your pwBPD perceives you acting in a new manner and she fights back and you "fold", Dude, that is no good.  Trust me.

4.  Focus hard on validation and listening.  You are going to hear things you don't like.  Prep for that, get your armor on.  I have no idea where you are in your ability to validate an emotion you don't agree with.  Think of validation as a soothing balm for the r/s

5.  Second priority is to study and think about boundaries.  Boundaries protect you  Your partner will NOT like them.  This is where you must not fold.  Folding is worse than doing nothing (hence my advice in number 1 and 2).

In the meantime we need to make a list of things that you eventually will change in your r/s and that is under your control.

1.  Control of finances

2.  Control of children (tougher than finances)

3.  Control of your medical care (this includes physical and mental health)

I want to challenge you to add a couple items to this list.

How is your education coming along?

FF

[JQ]

Dragon,

FF gives sound guidance ... .I don't just agree with him because I'm a retired Naval Aviator too     I'll echo what he has put out ... .Education is key and learning about BPD NEVER stops.  

In your quest for knowledge, make sure you look inward & learn about your behavior as well, you might not like what you find but it's going to be a critical part of your journey. The ol' saying is true, "How do you know what direction to go when you don't know where you came from".  This will help with number 2 of FF list. If you learn like the most of us here that you grew up in a household that created the people pleasure, perfectionist, avoid confrontation at all cost person that you are, then you can learn to make adjustment in that process that will assist you not only in your r/s with your BPD but in your everyday life with other r/s, i.e. work r/s, family r/s. etc.

One quick example, when I did my deep dive why I was the person I was, I learned that my mother & now younger sister are both BPD that still to this day try to control who I am with their flying monkey's. As FF said, setting and MAINTAINING boundaries is a critical part of the process going forward. Once I set boundaries with those two AND maintain them, it was a easier to implement that process in my BPD relationship. And as FF said, just like a 3 yr old toddler they will resist, throw tantrums like a 3 yr old in the grocery store when mommy or daddy told them no they can't have "x".  YOU need to be prepared for that tantrum and how you're going to respond or not respond to it.

And if you find in your deep dive on yourself that one of your parents is a BPD or a sibling and they in some way intrude or try to control aspects in your life ... .I would challenge you and encourage you to start there with your enforcing your boundaries.  Like FF said, if your BPDw fights back when you start to implement the boundaries, at least you'll be a little bit more experienced in what to expect and how to react and reenforce those boundaries before going for the one you live with ... .just my thought.

JQ

[Dragon72]

Thanks to both of you Retired Naval Aviators!

My father is Retired Navy so I can empathise albeit a little and vicariously!

I too am a person who likes a plan.  A few years ago, long before I even met my wife, I underwent weekly talk therapy for depression.  I lasted about 6 months before I abandoned it.  I felt that I was just getting sadder and sadder raking up the uncomfortable stuff from my past, and the fact that the therapist was so passive and didn't come up with any action points made me think that I might as well have been throwing money at my pillow.

So thanks for giving me a plan to consider!

I have done quite a lot of self educating in the past few months since I admitted to myself that my marriage was dysfunctional and was probably going to end horribly unless I took action.

First I thought it was just that we had general marital problems.  So I read about that.  The problem is that they are designed for people that have relationships with people who listen to reason and who are willing to confront emotions.  

Then I thought that it was all my fault, and read up on how to be less of a "nice guy" people pleaser.  I read NMMNG about twice. I had difficulty with the whole "boundaries" issue.  And still do, it seems.

Then I realised that so many of my wife's behaviors fit the behaviors of BPD, and that codependent or not, I needed to adopt a different approach.  So I have read all the lessons ---->, I have read "... .Eggshells" twice, watched umpteen videos online, and continue keep an eye on threads here that seem to echo what I'm going through.

Validation is something I have a great deal of difficulty with.  Firstly, it all goes out of the window in the heat of the moment.  Secondly, sometimes it's hard to know what underlying emotion to validate when my wife is making me feel bad for wanting to live my life like any normal person would.  It's going to take time and practice before I can get to the stage where I try to soothe her, instead of try to protect myself.

Now I get resentful about her behaviours and, in turn want to expose myself less and less to those sorts of situations.  So I am getting less and less affectionate towards her - like someone who no longer wants to cuddle a dog when you never know if it will lick you or bite you.  

I think that she, in turn is trying to protect herself by retreating into our son's room when I'm around.  "You can't reject me if I've rejected you first" - is the underlying thought that both of us are probably thinking.

[HurtinNW]

I'm new to a lot of this, but I wonder that if instead of raising the issues and trying to communicate your needs, you take charge of your needs. Right now she doesn't appear able to hear or meet your needs. You're doing a good job at self-care. But what if you took those needs and looked more into getting them met? And leave the door open for her to join you?

You are lonely. Arrange more time with friends. Invite wife along. Take the kid to the park or swimming pool. Invite wife along. Tell wife you are bringing home take out for the family, hope she will join you. Plan outings with the kid. Go see a movie. Go out to eat. Do it all with a cheerfully open door for the wife to join you.

If you haven't done this stuff before she may hit the roof. But she also might adjust, especially if you don't cave.

Along with other things suggested, don't forget reinforcement. It can start in baby steps. I've been surprised at how effective reinforcing even the smallest behavior can be.

[gotbushels]

[... .]

But what if you took those needs and looked more into getting them met? And leave the door open for her to join you?

You are lonely. Arrange more time with friends. Invite wife along. Take the kid to the park or swimming pool. Invite wife along. Tell wife you are bringing home take out for the family, hope she will join you. Plan outings with the kid. Go see a movie. Go out to eat. Do it all with a cheerfully open door for the wife to join you.

[... .]

HurtinNW thank you these are great suggestions.


Hi Dragon72

So validation seems pretty tough for your situation.

I feel it is tough sometimes.

It feels better when you get the results from successfully using it though, so don't lose heart.

[... .]

Validation is something I have a great deal of difficulty with.  Firstly, it all goes out of the window in the heat of the moment.  Secondly, sometimes it's hard to know what underlying emotion to validate when my wife is making me feel bad for wanting to live my life like any normal person would.  It's going to take time and practice before I can get to the stage where I try to soothe her, instead of try to protect myself.

[... .]

Validation is very important. I would say it is so important that if you don't work at it, it will undermine the rest of your effort.

Have you ever found that you can have the best argument in the world prepared, but your wife just walks off?

---

Yes it is sometimes very hard to do. Your self-realisation is important.

Note this: "Firstly, it all goes out of the window in the heat of the moment."

This tells us we need commitment to 'overcome the heat.'

What can you do for yourself to commit to using it correctly?

---

Emotion is a hard thing to validate sometimes. But it has a great reward if you can do it right.

What other things can you validate?

[Notwendy]

Dragon,

Maybe it would help to see a perspective from the other side. I have been a stay at home mom with small children. Being with a young, constantly needy, child, can actually, in a way, overly fulfill one's emotional needs for affection and company. While I realize it isn't ( nor should it be) the same as a sexual need, being with a little person that wants hugs and kisses, and snuggles, all day long is wonderful, but at the end of the day, I needed some time alone to  re-calibrate. As far as social needs, if I went to the park, or a playgroup, I had other parents to talk to. Sometimes, at the end of the day, I felt I had been giving emotional attention all day long, and didn't want to pay attention to another adult. Of course in a marriage that isn't a great way to feel, and I don't have BPD so I can manage these feelings, but if your wife is disordered, this could be all she can handle at the moment.

In this arrangement, I think the man comes home from work, and wants some comfort/relaxation. Food and sex fit the bill. But to someone who has been feeding/hugging/soothing/kissing boo boos/changing wet diapers all day long, more feeding and being physically affectionate in the evening can feel overwhelming. Coming home from work is a transition. For the stay at home mom, the home is the workplace, and so when you walk in the door - there is no transition from work to being home.

It is great that you are able to take the child and let her go chill. I think her staying away from you in the evening is a way for her to self soothe and also, it is possible she feels she isn't able to meet your needs at the time. You mentioned that you have needs and this is good, but after being with a two year old, meeting someone else's needs can feel overwhelming.

This time of day and pattern is a tough spot- a volatile one because both of you at this time are emotionally spent and needy, but when both of you are in this state, neither of you can meet each others needs. I was in this position with my H and it was difficult. We were both working hard at what we were doing and when he came home, both of our emotional energy felt spent.

While you don't like this, this is the best your wife is managing at the moment. She feels what she feels. I agree with validation- we all need it. Also, this needy stage is not forever.

[Dragon72]

I get that it's not easy being a stay at home mom.  I understand that. 

Food and sex are not the needs I want her to satisfy.  I can get my own food and the sex part I can kind of get by doing on my own if I get desperate.  Although I do think that the 4 or five times a year she wants to have sex is not something I feel content with.

But my life is no picnic either.  I work with kids too.  I work 12 hours a day.  I could use some time with an adult.  I want emotional intimacy.  I want her to offload the stresses of her day onto me.  I don't feel like she's letting me be a husband and I feel she has no interest in being my wife.

[Notwendy]

I get what you are saying. My H is in general, emotionally remote. If I try to talk about feelings, the conversation tends to break down.

My kids are older, but I recall when they were little, this was a difficult time for us. I would say that my ideas of wanting to be a wife and wanting a husband were not the same as his. I don't really know what his were. Like your wife, he would mostly go off and do his own thing in another room while I was alone with the kids. Trying to change things felt futile to me.

However, at the time, I realized that while I had needs, I also had responsibilities to my kids. I basically focused on that responsibility and put the marital issues aside. I know that there is more to this than food and sex, but for my H it is very hard for me to guess what his emotional needs are as he doesn't verbalize them.

During those years, I know that he was very resentful of me, and resentful of being the wage earner, even though he didn't do the hands on work with the kids. It felt like a no win situation. He didn't validate my contribution to the family, or the fact that he could do anything he wanted to do with no concern for who was watching the kids. This included spending the weekends on his hobbies while I took care of them. Perhaps he felt like the ATM, but I felt like his employee: on demand maid/cook/nanny/ prostitute.

The only thing that I know of that changed things was for me to start counseling, to change my contribution to the relationship dysfunction, to learn to manage my choices as well as my resentments. Accepting my H for who he is, also means accepting the way he interacts emotionally and to accept his ( major) contribution to the family. Although I think he has accepted that I have contributed, I really can't do anything about any resentments he has. I just try to be the best mom I can be, and feel it is best for all of us if I do that. Emotionally, your wife may be doing the best she can. She may not be able to meet your emotional needs, but these are your needs to meet, and there are other ways to do so while still honoring the parameters of your marriage. For me, counseling and friends can meet my "need to talk".

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

Small hijack here,

Can your hubby verbalize his needs now? 

FF

[Notwendy]

I also think it helps to understand the drama triangle, and the relationship of both you and your wife to your FOO. In my H's family, people do not talk about feelings. They are all very stoic, silent, and their way of communicating is passive aggressive. In my FOO, BPD mom expressed her feelings all the time, but we didn't dare express ours to her.

We choose partners who match our family dysfunction in some way, and this dysfunction can feel "normal" to us. Your wife could be playing our hers and not be aware of it. You could be too.

I also think it helps to understand the drama triangle. It is interesting to hear my mother talk from her perspective. It looked to us as if Dad bent over backwards to do anything she wanted, yet, she still felt wronged and invalidated. Doing any little thing for us felt demeaning to her, and a big deal. If she does something nice for us, her perspective is one of being entitled. In a paradox, my mother feels both invalidated and entitled at the same time. She didn't work outside the home, but had household help and didn't work at home either. From our perspective, she was given a lot, yet to her, she feels she did a lot.

My H works hard, for which I am grateful. Yet from his perspective, nobody did as much as he did, what he did was the most important thing in the family and because he works so hard for us, the rest of us should cater to him. I know you don't feel that way, but it is possible your wife does? I feel this is due to the preference for victim position on the triangle. If I present myself as needing something from someone who sees themselves in victim perspective, then, how dare I ask for something from them?

I'm not asking you to excuse your needs. It is hard to not have needs met. I have been there too, and sometimes still struggle with this. However, looking at my relationship took taking a large wide range perspective. Kids grow up, I was part of this dysfunction. Someone with BPD may not be able to do this- the non may have to take the lead in this. I had a lot of my own stuff to clean up as far as being co-dependent. Also, the range of BPD traits/expression is wide. No two people are alike. For some, the relationship isn't feasible, for others , it can be worked on and improved. I wanted to give it the best attempt, and it started by taking a good look at myself, not my H.

[Notwendy]

FF, it is better. We have had MC- a lot of it. I did a lot of work on co-dependency. Things are better because, I believe he has made effort, but also I have learned a lot about my own emotions. One big thing for me is to not be reactive, not get triggered. Discussing emotions often led to those horrible circular arguments.

Another is boundaries. His emotional boundaries are strong, he needs distance. I was able to give him that. However, over the years, I think I have also gotten more remote. He doesn't like that. In a way I think he liked that I pushed for closeness, but as my boundaries got stronger, I don't feel a need to.

We are in a strange "dance" of dysfunction with our partners. We push, they pull, we pull, they push. I just wanted to learn new steps. Some of this is trial and error, and some of this doesn't feel comfortable. I also know that I am not dealing with someone as symptomatic as my mother, yet the issues I brought in from my FOO seemed to create a similar dance.

I think the take home message is that, we choose partners who match us in ways. There is a lot of discussion on these boards about our partners behaviors and their issues, however, we chose them, and they chose us. I found this aspect interesting. While we wish they would look at themselves sometimes, I think that looking in the mirror is a hard thing to do, but something we need to do.

[formflier]

I'm going to "vote" for looking at drama triangle as well.

Be aware it may seem obtuse the first time, or first few times, you look at it.

Then, once you see yourself on it, be prepared to feel uncomfortable.

I have played the role of rescuer for a long time and usually during a dysregulation get "pushed" into the role of persecutor as I "lash out" to try and make the dysreg go away.

Now, I try to see what is happening, validate an emotion and "step out of the way" to let those people that wish to continue playing on the triangle do so, while I try and do something else.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think the drama triangle is helpful, but I think we have to be careful if we approach it from a position of one up one down. It is tempting to be the one who stays out of it, from a superior perspective. Nobody likes being regarded as impaired.

This has set the parameters of my relationship with my mother. I see her as seriously impaired. Because of this, I choose not to have an emotionally intimate relationship with her even though we are still in contact.  But I can not make this choice in a marriage.  I wouldn't even consider my H having the kind of BPD like my mother does, but his FOO patterns and his personality traits are enough to put me into the dance position that I grew up with- as the rescuer, caretaker, co-dependent and cause drama and dysfunction between us.  

I think people have different ideas of marriage. I see couples who seem to do everything together, and we don't. That doesn't mean the marriage is worse- we don't know what other couples are like in private. Also, marriage can be a challenge that makes us grow into better people, and we can look at it this way. Yet, I also think that one solution doesn't fit all. For some - staying married is the better solution, for some it is not. This is the staying board and so both options are not discussed. I do believe that if one chooses to leave and does not work on their own issues, that they are likely to repeat similar patterns in other relationships. This is one motivation to work on our own issues within the marriage if it is possible

[formflier]

I'm new to a lot of this, but I wonder that if instead of raising the issues and trying to communicate your needs, you take charge of your needs.

HurtinNW, nice work!  This is the best advice on this thread!

FF