No contact vs freeze-out

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been wondering about something. Want to ask in a way that respects people's different experiences and paths to detachment.

My r/s ended in no contact which I didn't initiate. The last communication (from him to me) was a short, sarcastic email. After replying twice (immediately after) and hearing nothing, I got the message and backed off.

I've been gratefully following the NC peptalk threads. I see how hard it is to initiate NC. I've gotten the impression that some have done so as my uBPDx did: without warning or explanation. In response, some have recieved barrages of harassing texts and phone calls, which is not cool, and I would never act that way.

I have been thinking of what happened to me as a freeze-out. Really, though, is it different than going NC in this silent way? Am I wrong to feel so hurt by it? I guess what I want to know is, is there a reason I'm missing NOT to give notice when you cease contact?

I had never been over-the-top in my communications with him--if anything, his problem with me was the opposite: that I wasn't matching his intensity of communications. I gave him no reason to fear I would not respect a request to cease contact, so maybe that's the difference. But the way he cut me off felt so disrespectful and mean. Any kind of statement (even an angry one) about future contact would have been better than just ghosting.

Please help me understand. Am I being oversensitive?

[steelwork]

I've been wondering about something. Want to ask in a way that respects people's different experiences and paths to detachment.

My r/s ended in no contact which I didn't initiate. The last communication (from him to me) was a short, sarcastic email. After replying twice (immediately after) and hearing nothing, I got the message and backed off.

I've been gratefully following the NC peptalk threads. I see how hard it is to initiate NC. I've gotten the impression that some have done so as my uBPDx did: without warning or explanation. In response, some have recieved barrages of harassing texts and phone calls, which is not cool, and I would never act that way.

I have been thinking of what happened to me as a freeze-out. Really, though, is it different than going NC in this silent way? Am I wrong to feel so hurt by it? I guess what I want to know is, is there a reason I'm missing NOT to give notice when you cease contact?

I had never been over-the-top in my communications with him--if anything, his problem with me was the opposite: that I wasn't matching his intensity of communications. I gave him no reason to fear I would not respect a request to cease contact, so maybe that's the difference. But the way he cut me off felt so disrespectful and mean. Any kind of statement (even an angry one) about future contact would have been better than just ghosting.

Please help me understand. Am I being oversensitive?

[steelwork]

Maybe I answered my own question. I can see from reading people's stories here where the silent-no-contact action comes from, and I know no one here intends it as a cruel thing.

I guess I need to forget about WHY he ghosted or whether it means he hates me now. He's just gone. The freeze-out hurts me like hell because of FOO things. But that's my problem, not his. It would be his problem if we were still anything to each other. When it happened, I thought we were. But I was delusional.

[Bigmd]

Steelwork, I've been a victim of the "freeze out" which I assume is silent treatment , many times in my relationship. To me it's the worst kind of verbal abuse. It hurt very bad. As you know BPD is unpredictable. In his mind I'm sure he thinks he did the right thing . But it leaves you with a sense of non-closure. What you can do is what your already doing. NC! Everyone will say the same thing. When my exgf dumped me out of nowhere I didn't know about BPD. I tried to get answers to no avail. It just led to a heated argument and more blaming and projection. I went no contact. It's hard but it works. Don't try to find answers because there aren't any. Many people who have done the breaking up and went NC have had the pwBPD text and call incessantly. It doesn't happen all the time, especially when they do the dumping , as in my case. So take it for what it's worth. If he wants to reach out he knows how and where to find you. Good luck

[Rmbrworst]

I'm not sure if I can answer your question in any way that will help, I can only tell you my experience.

I did not initiate no contact.  My exBPD dropped me like I meant nothing, and would not respond to my texts.  I was very angry with him and said some nasty things.  He didn't respond.  I later apologized and said I was angry with him, but that I was very hurt by the things he did to me.  I wanted to speak to him and gain understanding.  I asked him to help me move on and help me find closure.

He ignored these texts.

So even though he was the one who treated me poorly, cheated on me, lied to me.  I'm the one who feels silly and I'm the one who gets dumped.

It almost makes no contact harder.  I still desire to understand and have a healthy conversation about what happened, but I now know that day will never come.

I do realize that his behavior was so crazy making, that it started to make ME look like the insane boyfriend.  However I was driven to madnes by the mistreatment and the lies.  He dumps me and I look like the crazy ex.  I'm sure in his mind this is how he feels.  He created a situation in which he looks like the healthy individual who had to leave me behind.  Or something similar.

Anyway, it still hurts but I've mostly moved on and decided it doesn't matter. 

I don't know if anything I said help, all I can say is I can relate and I feel badly for you.

[Infern0]

They do it because they don't want closure because in their mind you might be useful later, this has been proven time and time again. Look through this site at all the "he\she broke nc" sometimes its weeks sometimes it's months but most times it happens.

Those who get permanently frozen out are probably dealing with more NPD than BPD

[steelwork]

Thank you for the support. R., I'm so sorry you went through what you did. Wish I could let go like you.

My T quoted a psychoanalyst named I think Fairbairn this morning:

"It's easier to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil." (Or something close to that.) what she meant, I think, was that I'm more comfortable with the thought that I've messed up than I am with acknowledging that this is undeserved suffering.

Those who get permanently frozen out are probably dealing with more NPD than BPD

This guy has so many hallmarks of BPD. So. Many. Maybe there's a little of the other in there, though, for spice. (He is very vain about his appearance.)

[Lonely_Astro]

They do it because they don't want closure because in their mind you might be useful later, this has been proven time and time again. Look through this site at all the "he\she broke nc" sometimes its weeks sometimes it's months but most times it happens.

Those who get permanently frozen out are probably dealing with more NPD than BPD

This is my ex. She will not ever contact me again.  I know because when we fell apart 4 years ago, we went 3 years without speaking.  The only reason we ended up talking was we had to ride together.  That started us on a new path.

J exhibits many NPD traits, though she's diagnosed BPD.  Since our breakup, she hasn't tried to contact me.  I feel supremely confident she won't.  She doesn't need me, nor will she, so there's no reason for her to.  

[GreenEyedMonster]

Narcissists are known for recycling as well, but it tends to look different with them, IMO, because they have to avoid narcissistic injury.

My ex, whom I believe to me more NPD than BPD, will not outright contact me at all, ever.  But if he wants to check on his supply, he will make it exceedingly difficult for me to conduct business as usual without seeing him.  He "lurks" and waits for me to pay attention to him.  He is one of these people who needs to be the last to reject.  This means that he will slam the door in my face happily, but when he figures out that I have moved on and started dating other people, he figures that I got the last word.  He tried to trick me into thinking he had a replacement once, just to make me feel rejected like he did.  He is very competitive and does NOT like to lose.  Some of these individuals will stay away as long as they feel like they won, but when it becomes apparent that they can't find an effective replacement, but YOU can replace them, it will jolt them into action.

For some individuals with NPD or BPD, ghosting or silent treatment feels like a win to them, because they kept you from being able to reject them, abandon them, or inflict narcissistic injury.  It will only feel like a win as long as you stay down.  The minute your life improves, they'll feel like losers again and reappear.

[Lonely_Astro]

Narcissists are known for recycling as well, but it tends to look different with them, IMO, because they have to avoid narcissistic injury.

My ex, whom I believe to me more NPD than BPD, will not outright contact me at all, ever.  But if he wants to check on his supply, he will make it exceedingly difficult for me to conduct business as usual without seeing him.  He "lurks" and waits for me to pay attention to him.  He is one of these people who needs to be the last to reject.  This means that he will slam the door in my face happily, but when he figures out that I have moved on and started dating other people, he figures that I got the last word.  He tried to trick me into thinking he had a replacement once, just to make me feel rejected like he did.  He is very competitive and does NOT like to lose.  Some of these individuals will stay away as long as they feel like they won, but when it becomes apparent that they can't find an effective replacement, but YOU can replace them, it will jolt them into action.

For some individuals with NPD or BPD, ghosting or silent treatment feels like a win to them, because they kept you from being able to reject them, abandon them, or inflict narcissistic injury.  It will only feel like a win as long as you stay down.  The minute your life improves, they'll feel like losers again and reappear.

That sums her up pretty well.  It was totally ok for her to ST me, date someone else, etc., but if she ever thought for a moment that I was going to move on she would be right there with me.  Even as I told her the last week of December would be our final week, she "switched" from the isolating me J to the call me all the time and want to see me outside of work J.  When it became apparent to her that I wasn't going to come back (even after she alluded to wanting sex and a 'do over', she immediately switched back to the way she had been that led to me deciding to leave.

There's no doubt to me that she has N traits.  She told me the reason she didn't speak to me after we fell apart was because she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else.  Maybe it's true or maybe she's just saying that because she didn't really think about me.  She always claimed she missed me and felt she had made a mistake by letting me go 3 years ago.  However, a year later (and a roller coaster at that!), she was ready to let go again. 

I hope she finds peace, love, and the calmness I know she wants.  I'm sad I couldn't bring that to her, but it just wasn't meant to be.

[steelwork]

There's no doubt to me that she has N traits.  She told me the reason she didn't speak to me after we fell apart was because she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else.

But isn't this another form of fear of abandonment? A behavior (say, ghosting) could look the same but have different underlying causes.

I feel we've been instructed time and time again by the village elders around here that pwBPD are individuals, so while there might be an overwhelming tendency to recycle, some individuals might act in a different way.

[steelwork]

The minute your life improves, they'll feel like losers again and reappear.

Probably he'll never know if I'm doing well or not. He's just gone.

[GreenEyedMonster]

There's no doubt to me that she has N traits.  She told me the reason she didn't speak to me after we fell apart was because she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else.

But isn't this another form of fear of abandonment? A behavior (say, ghosting) could look the same but have different underlying causes.

It's a nuance, but one that does matter.  Narcissists -- like my ex -- can handle being alone better than pwBPD.  Narcissts fear wounds to their egos, i.e. criticism.  They hold certain false beliefs about themselves, which on a subconscious level they know not to be true.  Anyone who forces them to confront any negative aspects of their personalities or behavior becomes a threat, because they will force the narcissist to feel very deep shame.  This is different from abandonment, and the behaviors they use to avoid it are different from avoiding abandonment.

Like I said, my narcissist never risks rejection.  He waits for other people to come to him, and feels resentful that he needs to risk narcissistic injury to make friends or find romantic partners.  IMO, pw pure BPD seem much more likely to take risks, as long as they aren't personally invested in the situation yet.

[steelwork]

There's no doubt to me that she has N traits.  She told me the reason she didn't speak to me after we fell apart was because she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else.

But isn't this another form of fear of abandonment? A behavior (say, ghosting) could look the same but have different underlying causes.

It's a nuance, but one that does matter.  Narcissists -- like my ex -- can handle being alone better than pwBPD.  Narcissts fear wounds to their egos, i.e. criticism.  They hold certain false beliefs about themselves, which on a subconscious level they know not to be true.  Anyone who forces them to confront any negative aspects of their personalities or behavior becomes a threat, because they will force the narcissist to feel very deep shame.  This is different from abandonment, and the behaviors they use to avoid it are different from avoiding abandonment.

Like I said, my narcissist never risks rejection.  He waits for other people to come to him, and feels resentful that he needs to risk narcissistic injury to make friends or find romantic partners.  IMO, pw pure BPD seem much more likely to take risks, as long as they aren't personally invested in the situation yet.

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I can't tell.

What I meant was that "she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else" sounded to me like she was acting as she did to avoid abandonment. Which, I thought, was a BPD trait.

They do say that sometimes a pwBPD might break up with someone proactively if they fear a breakup coming on.

NPD and BPD are after all in the same "cluster," so it's not surprising if the behaviors and even underlying mechanisms overlap, right?

[Lonely_Astro]

There's no doubt to me that she has N traits.  She told me the reason she didn't speak to me after we fell apart was because she was afraid I'd reject her or curse at her or whatever else.

But isn't this another form of fear of abandonment? A behavior (say, ghosting) could look the same but have different underlying causes.

I feel we've been instructed time and time again by the village elders around here that pwBPD are individuals, so while there might be an overwhelming tendency to recycle, some individuals might act in a different way.

I thought that, too.  That she was being truthful, that she couldn't risk the chance that I would reject her if she reached out to me and I did something to her.  I could see how that rejection to a BPD would be painful.

Of course, there's a flip side.  Maybe she was afraid I'd reject her, but it was a different fear of rejection.  J has said many times that any guy she meets is only interested in "what's between her legs" because she's so pretty/hot/sexy/etc.  She has presented other N traits to me.  Yes, they are individuals, but it's common for other cluster b traits to overlap.  Personally, I feel she didn't reach out to me because she didn't want to.  She wanted the power/control to reject me, if she felt like it, so she wanted me to reach out to her.  At the end of our run, she told me that she was upset I didn't beg her to stay over at my place.  I had asked her once, she refused and seemed uncomfortable about me suggesting it so I never brought it back up.  I told her that's why I didn't.  She agreed it made her uncomfortable, but do you know what she said?  "You give up to easy with me," like I should've continued to beg her to stay over. 

Even as the sun sat on our r/s, I secretly hoped I'd hear her say to me "Astro, I love you.  I want us to work. Let's work together."  But, she didn't.  The reason for that, I'll never know.

[GreenEyedMonster]

At the end of our run, she told me that she was upset I didn't beg her to stay over at my place.  I had asked her once, she refused and seemed uncomfortable about me suggesting it so I never brought it back up.  I told her that's why I didn't.  She agreed it made her uncomfortable, but do you know what she said?  "You give up to easy with me," like I should've continued to beg her to stay over. 

It sounds like maybe she needed to know she could say no to you before she could feel good about saying yes.  Once she knew that you'd still love her if she didn't go along with the plan, and it felt like her choice, it increased her comfort level.  I think pwBPD really struggle with situations where they have to deliver what someone else wants or be rejected.

[Penelope35]

Like I said, my narcissist never risks rejection.  He waits for other people to come to him, and feels resentful that he needs to risk narcissistic injury to make friends or find romantic partners.  IMO, pw pure BPD seem much more likely to take risks, as long as they aren't personally invested in the situation yet.

Hi everyone

Green could you explain a little bit more on what you said about people with BPD taking risks if they are not personally invested in the situation?

[Lonely_Astro]

At the end of our run, she told me that she was upset I didn't beg her to stay over at my place.  I had asked her once, she refused and seemed uncomfortable about me suggesting it so I never brought it back up.  I told her that's why I didn't.  She agreed it made her uncomfortable, but do you know what she said?  "You give up to easy with me," like I should've continued to beg her to stay over. 

It sounds like maybe she needed to know she could say no to you before she could feel good about saying yes.  Once she knew that you'd still love her if she didn't go along with the plan, and it felt like her choice, it increased her comfort level.  I think pwBPD really struggle with situations where they have to deliver what someone else wants or be rejected.

I understood that.  That's why I never pushed her and I told her I understood why she didn't stay over, I was ok with that.  I always told her that she could, if she ever wanted to.  I reminded her of that, but I never begged. She wanted me to beg.  She actually had gotten mad, as she later told me, because I didn't beg.  Sorry, but I'm an adult.  If I ask you to stay, you say no, ok.  If I offer for you to stay whenever you wanted and you never take me up on it, that's on you.  It's just distorted thinking that she punished me for... .even though I didn't do anything to be punished.

I guess I didn't do a good job of conveying that I gave her a standing invite for when she was ready.  She just never did.  She than twisted that to "you'd never let me stay", which was frankly bs.  If she stayed late, she would often fall asleep in my lap on the couch.  I'd never rouse her, but when she woke up, she'd say she had to go.  I offered, several times, for her to stay and she refused every time.  I didn't force it, I did offer.  She refused every single time and than later said I "wouldn't let her".  Does that make sense?

[Wantingtochange]

I went through the ghosting at many times. Its abusive. Its terribly painful to endure. Each time she would leave my house like everything was fine. Then no contact, she vanished, each time to find out she had cheated on gone back to her ex husband. No mater what approach I would take she would completely cut me out of her life. She literally would leave me, my bed, and head right back to her ex, and pick up their life together like nothing happened.

Looking back at it, it's absurd. At the time I was "in love" and made every excuse for her and why she would do it. I would work though the pain and try and put my life back together then without fail, within 6 months to a year, she would break her N/C and contact me. It was always the same. She was sorry. She always loved me. She wanted to come back. I'm guessing many on here have heard the same thing.

I know its terribly painful and there is absolutely NO closure when they do it. I beat myself up. I blamed myself. I made excuses for her. I never truly let her go believing she was my "Soul mate".

Now I realize all the issues I have within myself. No emotionally healthy person would have continued like I did. So I'm stepping up and looking within. I know it feels next to impossible but try and forget who ever did this to you, as far as asking all the why's. It no longer matters.

What you do with yourself at this point is the Only thing that does matters.

Best wishes

[Rmbrworst]

Hey everyone.  I'm enjoying the input and the conversation.  I just wanted to say, let's not forget that Cluster B personality traits tend to overlap more often than not.  Peoole with BPD tend to have narcissistic traits and people with NPD can have anti social personality traits , etc.

I think the common bond is misusing people for their own personal gain,  BPD tends to be the most emotional of them all.  What I mean by that is I actually feel sorry for how they relate to life and what they go through.  

NPD and Anti Social are just monsters period.  It's a little more heartbreaking because I know my exBPD suffers from insanely depressive thoughts on a daily basis.  However it doesn't excuse his behavior.

Sometimes I think I have Cluster C personality traits.

Sometimes I get sick of everything having a label and I just think "I was mistreated."

The end.

[Fr4nz]

Hey everyone.  I'm enjoying the input and the conversation.  I just wanted to say, let's not forget that Cluster B personality traits tend to overlap more often than not.  Peoole with BPD tend to have narcissistic traits and people with NPD can have anti social personality traits , etc.

I think the common bond is misusing people for their own personal gain,  BPD tends to be the most emotional of them all.  What I mean by that is I actually feel sorry for how they relate to life and what they go through.  

NPD and Anti Social are just monsters period.  It's a little more heartbreaking because I know my exBPD suffers from insanely depressive thoughts on a daily basis.  However it doesn't excuse his behavior.

Sometimes I think I have Cluster C personality traits.

Sometimes I get sick of everything having a label and I just think "I was mistreated."

The end.

Don't forget HPD as well. My ex gf was uBPD with a strong histrionic component.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Like I said, my narcissist never risks rejection.  He waits for other people to come to him, and feels resentful that he needs to risk narcissistic injury to make friends or find romantic partners.  IMO, pw pure BPD seem much more likely to take risks, as long as they aren't personally invested in the situation yet.

Hi everyone

Green could you explain a little bit more on what you said about people with BPD taking risks if they are not personally invested in the situation?

pwBPD generally seem to be afraid of losing attachments.  Remember, all pwBPd are individuals, so what I say might not apply to all of them.  But if an individual with BPD is not attached to someone, there is literally nothing to lose in being rejected by that person.  What I mean is that a pwBPD doesn't fear rejection or abandonment in the abstract, but s/he fears being abandoned by specific people who s/he feels s/he needs in life.

A narcissist, in contrast, can receive narcissistic injury at nearly anyone's hands.  It doesn't matter if they care about that person's opinion to begin with or not. 

[Penelope35]

pwBPD generally seem to be afraid of losing attachments.  Remember, all pwBPd are individuals, so what I say might not apply to all of them.  But if an individual with BPD is not attached to someone, there is literally nothing to lose in being rejected by that person.  What I mean is that a pwBPD doesn't fear rejection or abandonment in the abstract, but s/he fears being abandoned by specific people who s/he feels s/he needs in life.

A narcissist, in contrast, can receive narcissistic injury at nearly anyone's hands.  It doesn't matter if they care about that person's opinion to begin with or not. 

oh ok I understand. Thanks for explaining