Is it possible to talk about separating or is it something you just have to do

[Cloudy Days]

I often wonder if the only reason me and my husband are still together is because we cannot have an adult conversation about splitting up. He gets emotionally abusive and I end up ending the conversation. I don't bring this up but any time he has brought it up and I have calmly tried to talk to him about it, he gets angry that I would agree to separate. But it's his idea in the first place. It's almost like a set up.

I don't really know how I feel about staying or leaving, I think I am stuck in limbo at this point. We aren't happy, neither of us are. I read something someone posted on this board the other day about why we stay. And almost every single point resonated with me. This is my one and only romantic partner, he has been everything to me but I am so unhappy with him and it seems as if he is unhappy with me too. But yet we are still together. So how do I deal with these feelings when I can't even talk to my husband about them. I kind of imagine if this was a normal relationship that at some point you could get together and talk about how you feel and figure out if the relationship is worth working on. Well that conversation can't ever happen with my husband so instead of having this conversation, we are just stuck.

[Cat Familiar]

I know I was stuck for many years with my first husband. I truly was very unhappy and I didn't know how I could possibly extract myself from that relationship. The straw that broke the camel's back was to get unsolicited feedback from a friend about how great a person I was and then the dam broke. I started confiding how abusive my husband was, something that I'd always kept secret. And ultimately that led to me breaking up with him.

He was absolutely dumbfounded as in the past, I'd always excused whatever poor behavior he inflicted upon me. But enough was enough and he just couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I was finally done.

To answer your question, with a person who has BPD and is paranoid at times, I don't think it's really possible to have the adult conversation that you could have with someone without these limitations. As you know, pwBPD will often in the blink of an eye, go to feeling blamed or shamed when we're trying to talk about difficult issues.

Perhaps for you to get on one side or another of the staying/leaving dilemma, a spreadsheet of positives and negatives about the relationship might help. I know it sounds simplistic. I did it long ago and it was really interesting to have something written on paper. Of course you'll probably want to burn it or shred it after you do it. However it became very clear to me that there was a huge imbalance in my first marriage, something that I was aware of deep down inside, but that I just didn't want to confront. Through wishful thinking I thought if I persevered things would be different and I tried that for many years without success. Seeing it all in black and white, I could no longer deny what I truly felt.

[Cloudy Days]

As of today I don't think I can list one positive thing about our relationship. He has some good days where we can laugh together but that's not typical. He's not necessarily abusive anymore, well he is emotionally abusive at times, which is almost a detriment because if he kept the physical abuse going I would have left. The emotional abuse is less obvious, small things that add up.

I can't lie, I am a procrastinator, I leave things until I absolutely have to deal with them. Sometimes they go away and sometimes they get worse than they would have been if I had just dealt with it in the first place. I am just someone who runs away from conflict, and this is the ultimate conflict. In my heart I love him, in my head everything tells me to figure out how to get out. But I don't know how. My life is not in danger, he's gotten significantly better from a couple years ago. But even with improvements he doesn't help me around the house, he doesn't help me cook, he doesn't even throw things in the trash. He smokes cigarettes constantly, he is selfish during love making. His only redeeming quality is that he is sometimes appreciative of me. I've never walked away from someone, even if they are bad for me. Even my best friend was a bad person, I can't say that she was BPD but she was certainly selfish and I paid the price for it many times. The only reason I walked away from her is because my husband made a big deal of it and threatened to leave me if I didn't stop having contact with her. I did it because she truly was a mean human being, he had a point.

[byfaith]

I am sorry you are in this situation feeling this way. I understand exactly what you are talking about. I am going through the same struggle.

I can't lie, I am a procrastinator, I leave things until I absolutely have to deal with them. Sometimes they go away and sometimes they get worse than they would have been if I had just dealt with it in the first place. I am just someone who runs away from conflict, and this is the ultimate conflict. In my heart I love him, in my head everything tells me to figure out how to get out. But I don't know how. My life is not in danger, he's gotten significantly better from a couple years ago.

That is me to a T... .well maybe WE can change.  Hang in there

[byfaith]

As you know, pwBPD will often in the blink of an eye, go to feeling blamed or shamed when we're trying to talk about difficult issues.

This is exactly what my wife will do in these conversations. So what do I do? Feel bad that she feels bad about herself. It's a vicious cycle. I say this kind of joking but I wish I could just go a few months not being concerned if I have hurt someones feelings by speaking truth calmly. No really I wish I could go the rest of my life doing this

[Cloudy Days]

I often wonder who I would have been if I had married someone I could be truthful with. I feel bad for holding my feelings back from him, he often tells me that I don't share my feelings. But when I have, I have often regretted it, not every time but a lot of the time. I am someone who has been hurt by her closest friends, so feelings have been hard to share in the first place. I think that is why I sometimes don't embrace how I feel about stuff.

[Grey Kitty]

  Really sucks to feel this way and be in this situation. 

Not much I can say 'bout that.

I will say that I cannot see the upside to discussing splitting as a *possibility* with your H. His BPD sounds pretty bad. My expectation is that he can threaten to split/divorce/etc. every other day for a decade, and it is just part of his normal emotional abuse... .but if you mention the possibility of splitting, that is WW3 in his eyes. He will keep bringing it up in your marriage for the next three decades if you do this and stay that long.

Probably better to just plan your way of ending the marriage, and make the point at which you tell him part of the plan, expecting him to go off the rails at that point.

You can MAKE the plan without EXECUTING the plan. That probably is a good exercise for you--if you plan out how it would go, you get a feeling of realness about it and will better know if it is what you want or not. Before you say a word to him, or take any other irrevocable steps.

[formflier]

 

Definitely get a plan to get all the way through a divorce.  Look at it from all angles.  Make sure you know where the sticky parts are.

Then you will have some confidence about "worst case"

Here is the thing.   You will need confidence in yourself.  A discussion about a breakup, separation, therapeutic separation, really any of that stuff is going to need to have you in a confident, businesslike place.

In reality, this is more about you than it is about him.

The good part about this is you are taking power and living your life by choice and not by default.

Are you in T? 

Now, as to the question of how to do this (I'm assuming this is a ways off, as in months).  I would write some stuff out, edit it.  Make it about you and your decisions to take some space to get yourself emotionally healthy and to heal the marriage.  Invite him along, but let him know that it is OK if he doesn't want to come and that you wish him well.

That would be the general gist of it.

Bottom line:  A healthier you is good for you and your marriage.  You are an adult and are making a choice.  He can make one as well.  If BPD twists it all up for him, that is his bag of monkeys (nods to waverider for that visual).

Thoughts on this?

FF

[Cloudy Days]

He's been talking about moving to a state where pot is legal. He feels this is his miracle medicine and right now he is on Supervised release and can't do it in the state we live in. We have discussed him moving alone and I have went along with it. But told him we would probably have to sell the house. I don't know if he is serious about this, but it would give me a trial separation that I would really like instead of just walking away. It would also allow him the chance to see if he wants to leave. He says it enough and threatens it enough.

[Grey Kitty]

He doesn't want to leave.

He threatens to leave because he gets something out of it. Not because he really wants to leave.

It sounds like you mostly want to leave but hope he will do it for you.

[Cloudy Days]

No, I just don't want to move and I want him to stop saying he wants to leave. Hearing it said 10,000 times pretty much makes you not give a crap if he leaves. I don't know what he gets out of it because I stopped reacting to it a long time ago. I would rather have a trial separation to really see if this is what I want. But him being the way that he is, I don't see this ever happening. Unless it is like this. I've never wanted to leave him, I am just sick of being told he is going to leave me. I'm worn down.

[Lucky Jim]

Agree w/Grey Kitty.  His fear of abandonment probably precludes leaving.  Generally, threats to leave by a pwBPD, as GK notes, are attempts to manipulate through F-O-G, but are unlikely to be carried out.  GK's last point is a good one.  Are you hoping he will leave, Cloudy?  That passive approach may prove to be a thankless vigil.  Are you waiting for him to do something that you are perfectly capable of doing yourself?  If you are uncertain about your feelings, as you note, then I suggest listening to your gut feelings.  :)on't overthink it.  Just let yourself do some thinking from the neck down and see what your gut is telling you.  Then you'll know more about how you feel.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

Therapeutic separation with therapist oversight is an option.

Having someone help you try to find out where you really stand (and making rules) can be helpful.

And sometime, there is no future and therapy can be a place to express that and have help getting heard.

[Cloudy Days]

My husband sees a therapist on a regular basis, unfortunately that means there is no money for me to get therapy, I have in the past, but his is required for his Supervision so obviously my needs are on the back burner on this. We are struggling financially, wanting to save money but haven't really been able to, it all goes towards bills

The whole reason I wanted to ask this question is because one of the main reasons I would consider divorcing is because he always says he's leaving. I have always been committed to the relationship, it's disheartening to figure out over and over again he doesn't seem as committed. That's why a conversation about it to me would give me closure.

Honestly, I think I have abandonment issues too. This is why I haven't left and why I am so frustrated with the constant threats of leaving. I don't react but they still hurt. Also, I basically take care of everything, all my money goes towards bills and mortgage and we have 5 dogs. I can't just up and leave. I don't know how I would even do that. I would have to ask him to leave, and I don't see that as something that would go down smoothly.

[Grey Kitty]

As far as his threats to leave, here is how I see it... .

He is distressed. Has no good coping tools. Threatens to leave as it is one of the few coping tools he does have.

At least in the past you reacted. (Either positively or negatively, that doesn't matter) That gave him the payoff he needed to help him cope.

He won't stop until you convince him by consistently not reacting that he doesn't get any payoff at all.

Start by practicing not reacting at all or perhaps saying calmly "I don't want you to go, but will not force you to stay." Or something similar. Then not engaging or discussing it any more.

You may find that you really don't believe it and really don't care about the threat to leave long before he gives up trying.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cloudy, it sounds like you are "stuck," which I understand is not a fun place to be.  Most Nons, including me, have codependent tendencies, that is, we are caretakers who put the needs of others ahead of our own, which leads to exhaustion.  It seems like you are leaving the decision whether to separate and/or divorce in your H's hands, right?  What if you allowed yourself to be the decision maker?  What is the best decision you can make for yourself?  I know these aren't easy questions.

LuckyJim

[Cloudy Days]

I can't explain it but I have never been able to walk away from him. Even when he was in handcuffs in the back of a cop car I couldn't walk away from him. I have stopped putting his needs above mine, I get a lot of "you don't care about me" behavior from him now because of it. He even tells his therapist that I don't care about him anymore because I stopped jumping when he says to. I have stopped picking up his complaints to solve, stopped caring about all his crisis's and have learned to let them roll off my shoulder. I am very proud of this fact as I am a completely different person from what I used to be. I'm sure there are still some codependent traits hanging around but I have done a lot of work on myself. But that still doesn't stop me from not actually wanting to leave him. He's the only man I have ever loved, for me that is hard to walk away from. I know that it's like an addiction.

[formflier]

 

Cloudy Days,

I'm seeing progress.  Perhaps leaving is too big of a "next step".

If that is the case, what would be an appropriate next step for you to consider towards a healthier you.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cloudy, Agree w/FF.  Sounds like you are making progress in terms of letting go of codependent/caretaking behaviors.  Returning the focus to you and your needs is the key, as you note.  Only you know the right path for you.  If you are unsure, suggest you listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[Cloudy Days]

If that is the case, what would be an appropriate next step for you to consider towards a healthier you.

FF

I don't know, I think that is why I feel stuck, I can't afford therapy for myself, even now my husband doesn't actually pay for his most of the time, we just rack up his bill and pay a little at a time.

He seems hell bent on moving on his own. Not actually leaving me but living on his own until he can come back. I feel sick when I think about it. It's like I can't look forward to any future because I am presented with either moving with him or him moving away from me. I don't really feel I can trust my gut feelings, they change. I guess I can say I don't trust myself, because I will have my mind made up about something and then a day or two later completely feel different. How do you make a decision when you feel like this? I've never been good at big decisions. 

I have been focusing on me as much as I can. I have been going through stuff and getting rid of things, sort of a purge and it feels really good to do. I used to really be a pack rat and it's almost therapeutic to let go of stuff. My husband is pushing back on it "are you trying to get rid of our memories?" To be honest I haven't even gotten rid of anything that has to do with him. I feel like I have so much weight on my shoulders and I am trying desperately to lesson it.

[lingering]

Wow, this is comforting to see that you guys are experiencing the fuster cluck I have been living in.  I need to leave but his tears and manipulations make me uneasy.  It is endless and gets more painful with each iteration.  I think it is time.  I am so glad you all are here.  Thank you so much!  Barye

[Like2Bhappy]

I know what you mean. About the communication. I try to talk to her. When I do I can tell she is winding up to blow! I try to say that I just want to cal my discuss our relationship. But it always ends the same. She explodes and won't talk or look at me for usually three to four days. It happens so often now. All weekend I hid in my man cave not wanting to stir the pot. After work Monday I went outside to work on a project. She came home and came in the garage. And spoke to me.ishe said she picked me up a sandwich for dinner. I showed her what I was working on. She went in the house. I went in showered.while I was in the shower she was talking to me. I said wait till I got out. She was looking at a car to buy. We were talking about a Refi. On the house. Which she is the owner when I met her. Red flag number one. Anyway it has been two weeks now hasn't got a answer. We haven't hardly spoke in weeks. Anyway on that evening she blew up again! It's now Wednesday and I'm in the dog house again. She put our wedding photos away last night. Is this just insecurity or what? This just repeats over and over. I feel I may come home one day and I'll be locked out. Hasn't happened yet. But to her defense. When I get angry I blow off and say I'm leaving. I never do but she says I say it. I can't help it! I get so frustrated with it! I say look at what I do not what I say. Someone please help!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mtmartin, Welcome!  You have come to a great place.  How long have you been married?  What makes you think that your W has BPD?  I'm sorry to hear that you are on a Roller Coaster of emotions.

LuckyJim

[northernlight]

Hi cloudy.  I know exactly what you mean about the threats to leave.  When I didn't know anything yet about NPD/BPD I used to get so distressed and beg him to stop saying it and to stop walking out on me.  One night I asked him when we having dinner for his birthday - two years ago - to simply stop threatening the end, telling me it's over, a waste of time etc.  He said okay and literally 10 minutes later he got angry about sth and said, we should just end this... .I realise now what all this means but for years I was destroyed and destabilised by it.  Learning about PD's changed everything for me.  It's still taken a very long time to start understanding I can never reason with him about anything or any of our problems - he gets instantly angry or threatens the end or storms off.  I've been beaten into submission  - it's taken me years but I've begun the process of detachment and the amazing thing of thinking more about myself.  Never thought it could happen - even three short months ago.  You can do it too Cloudy.  Honestly no matter how terrified of being without him you are, slowly seeds can take root and grow.  Keep reading here and everywhere you can for information about BPD as an illness you can't change.

[Cloudy Days]

Thanks Northernlight, I think I have read so much on this disease I feel like an expert. Of course I don't think you can ever read enough, but I've started to see it a bit differently, the more I focus on him and what is wrong with him the less I am focusing on me and I really feel like I deserve to focus on me.

Although I would like to work on our marriage or just let go of the marriage. He refuses to see a councilor with me which really bothers me because I don't think we can actually talk anything out. His therapist has seen us in the past but he doesn't want to do that now. I suspect because he knows I would spill the beans about his drinking or put a little more detail in how he has been acting. He's been emotionally abusive, putting me down about my weight a lot when he is heavier than me.

I think I am more afraid of the process of separating than I am of actually being separated. It's funny though, I got into a bad fight with him this morning and the moment he told me to get out, I got dressed to leave and he took it down several notches. Then quickly said, if you leave you can't ever come back. He's always done that kind of thing, tells me and even threatens me to leave but when I leave or make the move to leave he throws in a if you leave you can't come back type thing. It makes it very obvious of the game he is playing. I get so sick of the mind games.

[Grey Kitty]

You can "leave" the mind games.

It takes skill and effort and good boundaries.

After you remove those from your marriage, it is easier to look at what is left and see if you want to stay or not. It will give you both strength and clarity.

In that "If you leave, you can't come back" situation, the way I'd do it is to go away to take care of yourself and protect yourself from his abusive/negative stuff. When he's putting you down for your weight (or any emotional abuse!), just choose to go be apart from for a while. Put on your coat and go out to do anything you would enjoy on your own.

Even if you don't feel like it. Even if you will go out and stew on all the crap he's throwing at you. Still go away. If you have a friend you can confide in safely, call that friend, or go visit if it is close enough and possible. Start a topic here (perhaps on the Improving board?) about what is bugging you and what you can do about it.

But remove yourself from his presence.

And don't pick it up when he makes a threat about not being able to come back. (If you have reason to believe he might try to lock you out or something, do take precautions)

[RR4U]

Wow we all nons have so much in common.  The more I read the more I feel like I could of wrote this.  I purchased the book STOp Caretaking the borderline/narcissist.  It's a real eye opener. My therapist now recommends it to others. Now if I can do what the book suggests it would be wonderful.  The people on here are a great support.  We all deserve to be happy and appreciated.   Continue to take one day at a time and working out an "OUT" plan is my new goal. 

[Sluggo]

cloudy days,

I like many of the people here thought I was reading my posts.  I was looking for the little barney rubble character off to the side to see if I wrote that.  A couple of thoughts:

It would also allow him the chance to see if he wants to leave. He says it enough and threatens it enough.

During our marriage, I wished deep down that my wife would have left me because I knew I wasn't strong enough.   That way I could say that she gave up and I didn't.  I thought that was important to me.  However, I was the one to leave and it has been empowering. I don't have to stay in the house and listen to all the abuse.  I used to go out to our shed and sleep sometimes as I would be afraid to go in the house because it would be more arguing.  I felt so much pressure and tears were always just a thought away if I started dwelling on things especially my lack of control of the situation. Now if I am visiting the kids and the abuse starts I just leave and come back to the apartment.  I don't get hooked in and feel so much better.   

I don't know, I think that is why I feel stuck, I can't afford therapy for myself,

On the T, my wife and I both have had T that work on a sliding scale as there was no way we could afford it.  I explained that I couldn't pay their fee, and they asked me what I could afford.  I told them which would have been a little more than a copay if they had accepted our insurance.  They both accepted that.  As my worked improved, I told the T I could start paying more and asked him to raise my price. 

I don't know if he is serious about this, but it would give me a trial separation that I would really like instead of just walking away

I thought moving out would be a trial separation for us.  However, my wife painted me very black when I left and up to this point she is more angry at me than she ever has.  What I thought would be a way for us to cool down and get perspective, I believe was too painful for my wife to endure so she had to detach with anger. 

I had the fortunate opportunity to have a trial separation about 4 years ago when my wife went back to her home country for 9 months with most of our children to spend a school year.  It wasn't because of our fighting even though we were doing that a lot it was just to give our children the experience of their culture.   there is when I realized that I started feeling better without her there and the arguing.  I started to feel better about myself.  And if she called me angry, I would hang up the phone and turn it off.  It was a big step for me as I was strong enough to enforce that boundry (as it was so easy to do but just hanging up the phone)

 

[Cloudy Days]

I know that our relationship is on borrowed time at this point. I talked to him some more about seeing a councilor and he said that she keeps telling him to leave me. I can imagine what he says to her so I don't blame her for telling him that. There is so much I would like to discuss with him but can't because he gets caught up on menial things and the conversation just goes down hill. His therapist in the past has been able to explain things to him so he could understand a bit better where I am coming from. He trusts her more than he trusts me.

For some reason he keeps telling me to read my books (about BPD) I sort of want to tell him what they tell me to do but I know that would make him wise to some things and would make him push harder. He seems to think I am taking advantage of him which to me is a projection on his part. I told him that the books are more about me protecting my emotional well being rather than having anything to do with controlling him or his actions. I didn't want to delve further than that.

He keeps telling me that he is extremely depressed and keeps bringing up moving. I've told him my reasons for not wanting to move and given him ample time to change some things to make me reconsider it. If I were in a normal relationship I would probably be open to moving actually. But at this time I just don't trust him, I don't want to be isolated from everyone I know. He has given up on everything at this point, has stopped grooming himself, eats and eats and eats, doesn't spend time with the dogs that he wanted (we have 5 dogs and 2 stay outside most of the time), doesn't do absolutely anything around the house, can go days without showering.  I've never seen him like this. He looks like a grizzly bear because of not shaving his beard. I told him yesterday he is not attractive when he doesn't take care of himself, you would think he would know that. He spends most of his time in his underwear.

My main problems with leaving are that we just bought this stupid house, I can't live on my own income and he can't live on his own at this point. So kicking him out would make him homeless, and if I left then I would still have to pay on a house that I wouldn't be living in and I would be staying in a two bedroom home with my brother and mom and couldn't take my dogs with me. Another thing that holds me back are the 5 dogs, I am really attached to 3 of them, 2 of them have been with us for 6 years and he's made a claim that he plans on taking the two that we have had for the longest, the two that would hurt me the most. I just don't know how the particulars would work. I honestly fear trying to separate from him without him having his own setup first. Because I work, he doesn't, he has 8 hours a day he could really screw me over and he would screw me over. I have no doubt in my mind. That's why the trial separation sounds like a good thing to me. I know he would paint me black eventually but he wouldn't be near me so I wouldn't care.

I have been working through a lot of changes in myself. It's almost as if things are clearer now and I am figuring out for the first time what I actually want in life. I have become an Atheist, I have started paying attention to politics and the news, I have been letting go of my physical stuff. It's like I'm cleaning house in my brain, letting go of what was and trying to figure out who I actually want to be as a person. Because right now I am living an unfulfilled life. It's like a breath of fresh air for me because before all I focused on was my husband, that was a very lonely and unfulfilling existence. I no longer care what he thinks of me, I no longer care if he even wants to be with me. It's like my brain clicked that I matter and I need to take the steps that are right for me, not for him. I think part of his depression is because I am no longer the fragile, overly nice girl he married that said how high when he said to jump.

Most of the time my husband is not outright abusive, He is when he drinks but he's figured out if he stays away from me then he is able to leave me alone. Since we have a larger house he spends a lot more time away from me than he used to. Most days he only comes out of his room to go to the bathroom or occasionally watch a TV show we both like. He's been distancing himself from me. When we do talk he ends up storming off right back to his room. Then when I ask him to come out and socialize with me he blames it on the fact that I am always watching something he doesn't like. I've told him many times that he can ask me to change it to something else.

[Cat Familiar]

I have been working through a lot of changes in myself. It's almost as if things are clearer now and I am figuring out for the first time what I actually want in life. I have become an Atheist, I have started paying attention to politics and the news, I have been letting go of my physical stuff. It's like I'm cleaning house in my brain, letting go of what was and trying to figure out who I actually want to be as a person. Because right now I am living an unfulfilled life. It's like a breath of fresh air for me because before all I focused on was my husband, that was a very lonely and unfulfilling existence. I no longer care what he thinks of me, I no longer care if he even wants to be with me. It's like my brain clicked that I matter and I need to take the steps that are right for me, not for him. I think part of his depression is because I am no longer the fragile, overly nice girl he married that said how high when he said to jump.



This is very positive, Cloudy Days.  Good job!

I do understand not wanting to change your living arrangements because of your beloved pets. Been there, done that with my ex-husband.

What occurs to me as a possible temporary solution for you is getting a roommate to share expenses. Certainly not an ideal situation, but it could help you in the interim if your husband is not living with you.

You're doing great in a difficult situation.