After 33.5 years, I'm finally doing something.

[Depression = 72% of members]

This past Tuesday I woke up and realized I cannot pretend anymore.  The facade that my h and I have put on at our church had to stop. 

I do not doubt his faith or mine, and I don't have issues with the church itself or anyone there.  In fact, I love all the people there.  I just couldn't worship any longer in a place where I had to pretend we were a normal married couple. 

So I called my huband and told him all this.  He had very little reaction, which is what I expected.  I told him I was finding another church and that I was getting myself some counseling.  I asked him if he would join me in counseling and he said no.  I asked him why and he said it wouldn't help.

Backstory:  H is exceedingly negative, miserable, and critical.  He is angry most of the time about something, and has crazy outbursts because he thinks I am disturbing his sleep on purpose.  I would never, and have never, done that.  For the most part these outbursts, which he has done for decades, have stopped.  But,  he is substituting new behaviors like charging out of his room and demanding to know why the house stinks/what I'm cooking that stinks. I can be sitting in the living room reading and he still believes I am cooking up a storm and trying to upset him. He has also screamed out some profanities from his room during the night but has no memory of it. 

He actually doesn't remember most of his behavior if I ask him about it.  Denial is his middle name it seems.  NOthing is his fault.  He is also jealous of any talents and abilities I have. 

He can be wonderful and pleasant with others and instantly switch back to his nasty mode with me.  He does not believe there is any issue with his behavior, and he will not acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage.  He refuses to talk to me or anyone else about anything concerning us. 

I withdrew emotionally from him gradually over the years in order to keep my own sanity.  I think he prefers me crying and begging him to tell what is wrong and why he is so mad all the time.  I haven't done that in years, though. 

I'm praying that I will say what needs to be said to the counselor (another pastor) that I'm meeting with on Monday.  This is all new to me.

[Verbena]

This past Tuesday I woke up and realized I cannot pretend anymore.  The facade that my h and I have put on at our church had to stop. 

I do not doubt his faith or mine, and I don't have issues with the church itself or anyone there.  In fact, I love all the people there.  I just couldn't worship any longer in a place where I had to pretend we were a normal married couple. 

So I called my huband and told him all this.  He had very little reaction, which is what I expected.  I told him I was finding another church and that I was getting myself some counseling.  I asked him if he would join me in counseling and he said no.  I asked him why and he said it wouldn't help.

Backstory:  H is exceedingly negative, miserable, and critical.  He is angry most of the time about something, and has crazy outbursts because he thinks I am disturbing his sleep on purpose.  I would never, and have never, done that.  For the most part these outbursts, which he has done for decades, have stopped.  But,  he is substituting new behaviors like charging out of his room and demanding to know why the house stinks/what I'm cooking that stinks. I can be sitting in the living room reading and he still believes I am cooking up a storm and trying to upset him. He has also screamed out some profanities from his room during the night but has no memory of it. 

He actually doesn't remember most of his behavior if I ask him about it.  Denial is his middle name it seems.  NOthing is his fault.  He is also jealous of any talents and abilities I have. 

He can be wonderful and pleasant with others and instantly switch back to his nasty mode with me.  He does not believe there is any issue with his behavior, and he will not acknowledge that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage.  He refuses to talk to me or anyone else about anything concerning us. 

I withdrew emotionally from him gradually over the years in order to keep my own sanity.  I think he prefers me crying and begging him to tell what is wrong and why he is so mad all the time.  I haven't done that in years, though. 

I'm praying that I will say what needs to be said to the counselor (another pastor) that I'm meeting with on Monday.  This is all new to me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wanda]

Hello if you have a hint he has BPD there is a lot to learn and a lot to read . the not remembering things is all part of it. i have been married 18 years and known 17 of those years i had to accept there was a problem and learn the tools and skills associated with all this and how to communicate with him. because he makes no sense a lot of the time as well. HE has no clue of BPD

i am glad  you yourself is going to counseling let them help you though all this and explain things you can do to make things easier for you...

i am glad you found us and keep reading and posting it will help...  

[Verbena]

Thank you, Wanda.  I came here almost three years ago because of our daughter who has BPD.  I'm not sure if my H meets enough of the criteria for BPD, but he is definitely disordered.  I am seeing more and more disturbing behavior, mainly very rapid shifts from nasty to nice and back again depending on who is around. 

I have made some notes to share with the pastor/counselor on Monday.  I feel like I need to paint a picture with specific incidents, but I've never done this before so who knows. 

[Notwendy]

Verbena, self care is important and so good for you for getting a counselor.

As to the church, people do change churches, and your spiritual well being is yours- personal. You don't have to defend it. While I wouldn't suggest making personal relationship issues public, feeling as if you are pretending in your church is also difficult. Hopefully you will find a group- like a woman's group at your church where you can attend as yourself. Even in a relationship, we are still individuals- with different interests and different spiritualities. Since you still like the church you have been going to, and if your H still likes it, perhaps there are times you could still go together, such as holidays so your spiritual/social worlds are not entirely separate. But taking care of yourself and getting help are a good step.

[Cat Familiar]

Verbena, Yay!  You're taking a great step for authenticity.

The discordance between the public face and the private face is maddening. I'm glad you're doing counseling and I hope that will give you some well-deserved support.

When you make changes, the system has to respond. Good for you to shake up your husband's complacency. 

[Verbena]

Thank you for the responses. 

I feel a tremendous burden lifted from my shoulders knowing I don't have to pretend anymore.  I called two people at my church (pastor's wife and daughter) and told them I would be leaving.  I had to tell them something.  It is a tiny church and I had several duties there, so they needed to be aware I would not be back. 

Both said they had no clue anything was wrong and didn't think anyone else did either.  That is my point exactly.  Other people who are around us realize things are not right between us, but my own church family didn't? 

Strangely enough, but not surprisingly, my H has not said one word about any of this since I told him Tuesday.  He did not ask who I spoke to at the church, what I told them (he said I could tell them whatever I wanted to), where I am going for counseling... nothing.  He is basically not talking to me right now actually. 

I think he sees this whole situation as one he has no part in. 

For those that have done counseling, how does this work?  How much detail do I need to give about H's behavior?  I can't see myself just saying, "He's negative and miserable and I don't like being around him." 

[Cat Familiar]

For those that have done counseling, how does this work?  How much detail do I need to give about H's behavior?  I can't see myself just saying, "He's negative and miserable and I don't like being around him." 

I've never done counseling with a minister, so what I say may not be appropriate for your situation. I have done counseling with several counselors over the years and I tell them everything. I figure the more they know, the better their advice will be for me. I don't hold anything back.

[HurtinNW]

Just want to give you a big hug 

Something to think about: some of the symptoms you describe may be organic. Smelling strong smells that are not there, shouting profanities in your sleep... .those can be symptoms of an organic brain issue. Not to worry you, but I had a dear friend who had similar symptoms and it turned out to be brain cancer.

Not saying that is what it is, just something to consider if these are new symptoms.

[Notwendy]

I think it is standard advice to get ( or have someone get) a good physical if there are any major changes in behavior. That is, if you could get him to get one- that isn't always easy.

I have not done counseling with a minister, but I too would not hold anything back. This is because whoever is trying to help you needs to know the whole story so that they can. I think most ministers have heard a lot of personal problems. I also think they would know local resources if someone came to them with a situation that needed more- such as medication, or more involved counseling. I would think they would need to know the situation so that they could help in the best way they can. It's a great start and hope that this is a help to you.

[Verbena]

I have had friends also suggest that get a good physical.  He won't do it if I suggest it for sure, but I agree that he needs to see a doctor.

About fifteen years ago, he went through several months of pretty bad pain with a disc issue.  He refused pain meds but did take a couple of others things for awhile.  I wish I knew what they were because HE WAS A DIFFERENT HUMAN BEING for that period of time.  Pleasant, calm, easy to be around... .

I read here awhile back that some of the same meds used to treat back pain are used to treat mood disorders.  Anyone ever heard this? 

My H is dead set against any and all counseling, medications for any type of emotional issue, and psychiatry in general.  He has plenty to say about people who rely on these resources for their problems.  

I took a low dosage of Paxil for years.  I was prescribed it by my doctor after I had an ovarian tumor the size of a football (so they told me) and a complete hysterectomy.  I felt SO much better once I got on the Paxil, but my husband criticized me taking them the entire time. He seemed to think he knew better what I needed.  

I don't know how long this pastor will have to spend with me tomorrow, but I'm I could go for hours describing what my life has been like with my husband's behavior.  I just don't want it to be a bash-fest.  I'm also prepared to hear some things about myself I may not like.  

[formflier]

I would discuss with the pastor some goals of counseling.

Give 1 or 2 stories to illustrate.  Talk about the impact on your life.

Are you looking for spiritual guidance?  Will this be "biblical counseling"

FF

[Chilibean13]

Good for you in making changes.

This last year I contacted our pastor and let him know what was going on in our home. The pastor met with my H and it has led to major changes in both of our lives. They required that if he wanted to continue to be welcomed he had attend counseling, get off facebook, and attend a specific small group aimed at dealing with emotional baggage.

My concern is that you feel like you need to switch churches in order to make these changes. I'm not sure what your level of involement is in your church but what makes you feel like you have to leave? Did something specific happen? Are you embarassed that if this comes out people will look down on you? If you are in a good church, I would hope that as these things come out, the people there would love you and come around you for support during this time. If your pastor knows both you and your husband it might make things easier for your H to counsel with them. All couples have problems and pastors know that. I guarantee your pastor and his wife have issues too. The people you go to church with may also feel a sense of relief if they can see a couple work through their issues openly instead of keeping the flaws hidden. People can't know what is going on behind closed doors unless those doors are opened. I know the name of every single member of our church but I couldn't tell you which couples are happy and which aren't because they don't tell me. And I'm on our Pastoral Counseling Team! They don't tell anyone. I can't read minds and they can't read mine. They only know what I tell them. And because of that I cannot be offended when they don't know what is going on in my marriage or life.

If you leave your church that is totally your choice. I just hate to see people leave a stable, known place because of fear. I just want you to make sure your motives in leaving are correct.

One other question, how will leaving your church affect your husband? I know for me that if we suddenly left our church, my H would go into a complete meltdown. For him structure and schedules are important. He needs to know that things will be the same. Our church is where the majority of our social life takes place. A new church would cause intense anxiety in regards to new ways of doing things, new poeple, new environment, fears about the unknown, leaving old friends behind, etc. Something this life altering would cause major dysregulations for months.

[Verbena]

Chilibean, I felt that I had to leave because my feelings of fakeness with my marriage were interfering with my worship.  Nothing in particular happened to make me leave.  I just couldn't continue the farce. 

I wasn't concerned that if the condition of our marriage came out, people would look down on me.  It already has come out now that I have left, and I don't think anyone there is looking down on either of us.  I think they're shocked because they didn't know, and I know they are praying for us. 

There is no one at this church who doesn't have issues.  We all have issues.  The problem was I could not go to my pastor and tell the truth about my husband's behavior because I feared my husband's reaction if I did this.  He would never have agreed to counseling with our pastor because he cannot accept that he has any part in our dysfunctional marriage, and he would never have tolerated me telling the truth about his behavior.  That is the whole problem.   He accepts no responsibility for anything.

So, it was either continue and say nothing (and have this burden of living a lie before God) or leave and tell them the bare minimum--that I am getting counseling for marital issues and that he is staying. 

[Chilibean13]

That makes sense. I truly believe that God can heal your husband and your marriage. I hope you begin to see new changes soon.

[formflier]

So will your hubby go to the pastor for a bible study?  The neat thing about pastors is they can guide people to an answer through bible verses and reading.

Granted, I have seen it backfire, or more properly ricochet and reveal more of my wife's dysfunction. 

Basically the verse was about asking God to open your eyes to sin.  And the obvious point is to see your own sin and repent.

My wife gets really excited reading it and says, "This is going to help reveal FF's sin to me better so I can help him repent", or words to that effect.

They eventually got her around to say it was about her, but there was a yeah, yeah, whatever attitude to it.

FF

[Verbena]

That makes sense. I truly believe that God can heal your husband and your marriage. I hope you begin to see new changes soon.

If He could part the waters, healing my marriage should be a snap.  He gives us free will, though, and my husband would have to choose to recognize there are problems and his part in them.  In other words, a miracle would have to occur with my husband's mental issues.  Another miracle would need to happen with my heart because I do not love him anymore, haven't for a long time. 

I really appreciate your comments, Chilibean.

[formflier]

 

In the church/biblical sense does he ever talk about sin or sinful attitudes?

What is his involvement at church again.

Sometimes people are ok talking about "sinful attitudes" (vice behaviors) and it can be a nice way of influencing change without saying "you are doing something wrong"

Trying to think about how to get him engaged in a conversation/discussion with a pastor without calling it counseling.

Note:  If your hubby started to change, I think your heart will come around.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, I am almost certain my husband is not going to seek any help from anyone at church.  He is against any and all counseling, help, advice from others.  He has refused to talk to me about our marriage for ages; I can't see him discussing it with anyone else.  He's already refused to go to an outside counseling source with me.

It would take a miracle to get him to go to any kind of counseling.  

It all boils down to sin, for all of us.  That is a very unpopular word these days.  No one likes to be accused of it, yet we all have it in our lives because we are all imperfect.  My husband totally believes this--that we are all lost without God's saving grace.  His mental issues won't let him be wrong, though, in our marriage.  He just can't be wrong.  It has to be my fault.  

My H told me to say whatever I needed to when I called the pastor's wife and daughter.  So I told them I was leaving, my husband was staying, I was getting counseling, but he was refusing it. No details whatsoever of his behavior.   If anyone at the church ever brings this up and tries to talk to him about it, I can totally see this backfiring.  He just won't be questioned on anything or discuss anything--not without a miracle.  

FF,

Yes, sin is a topic my husband discusses

because the Bible is the center of our church and sin is the reason we need grace.  He is comfortable talking about sin, even his, as long as it doesn't relate to our marriage.  He does not see that he is any way responsible for the condition of our marriage.  He's already pinned that all on me.  

You have more faith than I do concerning me coming back around to loving him again.  I can barely pray for him right now.  

[formflier]

 

Is your husband saved?  Can he articulate how he came to know Christ? 

I can see how pwBPD can twist things, hmm.

How about this.  What does he think of his role of "headship" of you as his wife or leading the family?

If he thinks it is all your fault, and believes he has a role to play, maybe he will get in the room under those circumstances.

Do you guys ever do Bible study together?

Listen, I'm not doubting at all that you have tried "everything".  My wife and I have a superficial religious part of our r/s.  It used to be deep and connected.  Once the mechanism broke down of letting her know I had a hurt from her and to have her acknowledge and ask forgiveness, well the Christian part of our marriage was gone.  Then when she very casually suggested that I had defrauded her by hiding my religious views prior to marriage, well, that was the last significant religious conversation we have had.  6 months ago or so.

Note:  I didn't trigger when she said that.  I left her to her own opinions and didn't get into it.

FF

[Verbena]

FF, yes he is saved and has articulated when and how he made the decision.  We have done Bible studies in groups, not just the two of us though.  

I'm not even sure my husband is BPD.  He's got some serious mental issues, but I don't know that it's BPD.  I came here because of our daughter who definitely has it but is doing okay now.  

I think one of the differences between your wife and my husband is that your wife uses religion as a weapon against you when it's convenient to do so. Obviously, I can't judge her own personal salvation, but she seems to play the game for the sake of appearances.   With my husband, he just avoids those parts of Ephesians that might make him feel guilty.  :)enial and avoidance are huge parts of who he is.  

His involvement at church... .goes three times a week, does a men's prayer group early Sunday mornings, leads the singing occasionally, makes the announcements, does the church bulletins, used to mow the grounds before he got so busy with work.  He is very involved.  This is a VERY small church--maybe 40 people in worship on an average Sunday morning.  He likes such a small group, in my opinion, because he doesn't like big crowds and likes to be a part of things.  

I could be totally wrong, but again I do not see him ever tolerating a discussion of his behavior in our marriage.  I told the pastor I counseled with today a LOT about the behavior.  If my husband had been there, he would most likely have denied it all or said he had no memory of it.  That's what he always says to me if I try to bring anything up... .right before he walks away. 

[Chilibean13]

That makes sense. I truly believe that God can heal your husband and your marriage. I hope you begin to see new changes soon.

If He could part the waters, healing my marriage should be a snap.  He gives us free will, though, and my husband would have to choose to recognize there are problems and his part in them.  In other words, a miracle would have to occur with my husband's mental issues.  Another miracle would need to happen with my heart because I do not love him anymore, haven't for a long time. 

I really appreciate your comments, Chilibean.

I know exactly how you feel. I often have to ask myself if I love my uBPDh anymore too. I care about him. I don't want bad to happen to him but I'm not sure if I love him. When he is normal I enjoy being around him. Still not sure if that is love. We have years and years of resentment and hurt and fear and more hurt and mean tones and cruel words. I frequently think of Abigail in the O.T. I'm not sure that she loved her H either. The Bible says her H was a harsh man. I often imagine he had BPD. She knew that he would easily be angered. She knew the right time to talk to him and when not to talk to him. Did Abigail walk on egg shells? I bet she did at times. How long was she with Laban? I bet she was tired of it. I'm sure she was embarassed about the way her H treated David.

The movie War Room has completely changed how I pray for my H. In the 1 1/2 mo since I've began to pray intentionally and specifically for my H and I have seen HUGE changes. It truly is a miracle. I'm also praying that God will heal my hurts from my H and that he will remind me to forgive him, sometimes on a daily basis.

[formflier]

My wife is more likely PPD than BPD.  However, unless they examined her when she was "wide open", I doubt she is diagnosable.

Paranoia drives really weird stories/accusations to come out of her.

I do believe she is saved.   She and her brother went forward during a revival when they were children.  There are parts of her faith that have matured and other parts (self control) that haven't.

From her family she gets a lot of "ends justifies the means" type of thinking.

As incredulous as it sounds, her Mom has said that "it is ok to sin as long as you are clear in your heart that you are attempting to point out sin in someone elses life and not just to sin"

My wife can explain to me how that is ridiculous and then turn around and behave as if it is true.

Note:  About 100-150 is my sweet spot for a worship service.

Verbena,

While I wish you were not going through this.  I enjoy this type of discussion about the church, people and our issues.

[empath]

Verbena, my husband is very much like yours, denial of the problems -- or covering them up for the sake of appearances -- is part of who he is and how he learned to 'do' his Christianity. He has had pastors who mentioned his poor 'leadership' of our family before in the context of him wanting to go to seminary and be ordained. I sat in on those conversations, so I know what happened. Afterward, he left those churches. The most recent one is the one that I am semi-attending (it's a long story, but I can't sweep sin under the rug anymore), and he will not go there because he is bitter and angry and hasn't forgiven the pastor for the perceived judgment of him. In the meantime, I am the one with the problem because I 'left' the church, and he is trying to figure out how I feel when he shuts down any discussion of my feelings. I need healing, but he doesn't. He told people to pray for me because I was hurting and needed healing.

My husband receives the idea of 'sinful attitudes' very poorly; he thinks it is a judgment on him and he feels 'accused' (how he describes his feelings). I think he has trouble differentiating between conviction and accusation, and as long as people think he is doing what he needs to do, he thinks he is fine.

We were both leaders, and he is an ordained minister. Our new pastor has tried to give advice about how we should be interacting, but he hasn't interacted with both of us and doesn't really know what to do in our situation. Thankfully, our Bishop has said that my husband and I need to be in counseling but didn't specify what that looked like, so my husband is doing that (monthly) with a psychologist. I have a weekly counseling appt.

There are certain sins that my husband is more 'okay' with being problems, porn is one of those. When that comes up in his life, he takes immediate steps that are obvious. I guess it is more of an acceptable sin for Christian men. After a recent relapse, he started going to Celebrate Recovery twice a week. The abuse issues are not really in the 'okay' category. I'm just thankful that he is out of the house more often.

As far as his spirituality, he has a hard time hearing God's voice or feeling the love of God, and he wants God to rescue him from the bad parts of life. He can articulate his coming to Christ and some of the other spiritually significant events of his life, but his faith is different than others that I've heard. He can say the right words and has a lot of Biblical knowledge.

I think it is hard for us as women in the church.

[Verbena]

Chilibean, I saw War Room.  I am having a really hard time praying for my husband like I should because I don't love him anymore or even like him that much most of the time.  It's tough. 

Empath, yes denial is a big issue for my H, too.  Someone from the church called me yesterday about a question with some study materials.  She also asked questions about my leaving.  I told her exactly what I did the pastor's wife and daughter.  Interestingly, she said she knew something was off.  She said it had worried her for a long time that there seemed to be no interraction with us whatsoever when we were together at church. 

She also told me that my H had a closed-door meeting for quite some time with the pastor on Sunday night.  So I am curious what that was about but not enough to ask him.  He wouldn't tell me even if I did.  He has still not said a word about my decision to leave or any of it. 

[empath]

People at church probably have noticed more than you think they have. We've had people comment on our kids (who don't really smile much and are pretty standoffish); then I had someone say recently that they have noticed that I can't have my own life apart from my husband.

I've found those people who have noticed to be supportive and understanding, often they have had difficulties of their own.

[Verbena]

empath, yes it's probably more than just the one woman from church who called me a couple of days ago that has picked up on something being wrong.  It's a TINY church, so the number of people who may have noticed isn't going to be a big number.  Still, I would think it was obvious. 

Our church families should and usually do support us.  I know people at my church (now former church) are praying.  There is no one there, or at any church, who does not struggle with something behind the scenes.  It may not be BPD, but it's something. 

[Grey Kitty]

Just wanted to pop in and say    And also  

Recognizing that you weren't comfortable presenting that facade.

Recognizing that "breaking" it wasn't a constructive solution. (Making a big deal about the issues with your H at church)

Recognizing that it was up to you to change the situation, and finding a new church was something you could do.

I'm sorry you are losing a community of people you appreciated worshiping with there.

[Verbena]

Thank you, Grey Kitty.  I am confident that I did the right thing in leaving.  I do find it strange that my husband seems perfectly okay with continuing to go there himself  since the cat is now out of the bag there about our marriage. 

[formflier]

Thank you, Grey Kitty.  I am confident that I did the right thing in leaving.  I do find it strange that my husband seems perfectly okay with continuing to go there himself  since the cat is now out of the bag there about our marriage. 

At some point, if you get to engage him in conversation about his choice to stay, please make sure that you say and make it obvious that you respect his decision.

Best to keep the thoughts about it being strange to yourself.

What does life look like for you guys if he get's himself happy with his church situation where he is and you get yourself happy with your church situation where you are?  How do you see that affecting the rest of the r/s dynamic.

FF

[Verbena]

Formflier, when I told my H that I was leaving our church and why, he immediately told me he was not leaving.  I let him know then that it wasn't my intention at all to force him to leave and that he could make his choice and I could make mine.  He has still not said one word to me about any of this, and it is highly unlikely he would discuss it further with me.  This is one of our biggest problems.  He will not discuss any issue we have in our marriage.  He just won't do it. 

How does this affect our relationship dynamic?  Well, we don't really have a relationship.  WE live in the same home,  sleep in separate rooms,  speak when we need to, and we are civil to each other.  And that is about it.  As the pastor who counseled me said, we're just existing. 

Going to different churches means that we are together less, not that we were "together" before, and it means that we have less to talk about because we do not have the same church family in common anymore. 

WE did talk tonight about finances because I asked him some questions and told him I needed to be more involved.  Just as I've distanced myself emotionally from my husband as a defense mechanism against his behavior, I have also distanced myself for some time from financial matters which he handles.  I told him last weekend (in a text) this needed to change and asked when we could sit down and go over some things.  He ignored the text. 

But tonight when he sat down to pay bills, I was involved.  He didn't like it.  There was a lot of anger under the surface on his part which I ignored.