Be Careful What You Wish For

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

As some of you know, my BPD/NPD boyfriend have been engaged in a very tumultuous four year relationship, with lots of recycling. At this point he lives in his house across town. I am in my house with my kids.

Things in general are going much, much better. This is due to the tools I am learning here. And also because he is in therapy and trying awfully hard too. We have a very charged relationship due to his issues and my PTSD and codependency. We are both doing a good job reducing the conflict.

One aspect of our relationship was I wanted commitment. I wanted a live-in relationship, for mine and my kid's sake. My values are uncomfortable with long-term dating and sex. So for most our relationship I was pushing for a live-in commitment. He would try... .moving partway in, spending more time with us. And then something would invariably blow it up. He clearly found it hard to adapt to life in a family. He has been a lifelong bachelor. His BPD/NPD symptoms became severe. From my perspective he could not admit any accountability of his difficulty adjusting, and blamed me and the kids. His reaction was to rage, break up with me, and then retreat back this place for a few weeks to a few months. Then he would reengage, idealize me briefly, and we'd be back on the push-pull cycle. After four years of this the kids have had enough. They don't want him back.

For the last six or more months moving in has not been on the table. We've dated and kept the kids largely out of it. I think maybe part of the reason things are going better is the lack of pressure on him. But I have struggled with the lack of commitment and what it means for my values.

And now boyfriend says he wants to sell his house and move in for good.   He says he is looking at rings   

Now, heaven help me and please forgive me... .I am the one having cold feet. Alarm bells go off in my head. I am scared he will move in and I will be stuck with his behaviors. And also to be blunt, he has been unemployed for over two years and I suspect his money is running out. He has other options (namely to sell his house, which is worth $$) but I worry moving in with me is also a way he is seeking identity and sanctuary. Which for him is going to set off every engulfment fear he has. He's never worried about abandonment as much as he has engulfment.

This is going to sound harsh, sorry, but I am worried about my own judgement here. Do I really want an unemployed man moving in to my home, and potentially upsetting my kids? WHY AM I EVEN CONSIDERING THIS? My own kids operate under the assumption that everyone here over the age 18 works. I have kids with disabilities and they still work and pay rent. I can see trouble looming if he moves in.

I have to acknowledge my role in this. I have not been happy in a dating relationship. He knows I want commitment. The whole long-term sexual relationship without marriage goes against my morals. So I feel a little trapped here by my own values and desires. He has a lot of wonderful qualities and despite the harsh reality of this post I do love him a lot.

Thoughts?

[HurtinNW]

As some of you know, my BPD/NPD boyfriend have been engaged in a very tumultuous four year relationship, with lots of recycling. At this point he lives in his house across town. I am in my house with my kids.

Things in general are going much, much better. This is due to the tools I am learning here. And also because he is in therapy and trying awfully hard too. We have a very charged relationship due to his issues and my PTSD and codependency. We are both doing a good job reducing the conflict.

One aspect of our relationship was I wanted commitment. I wanted a live-in relationship, for mine and my kid's sake. My values are uncomfortable with long-term dating and sex. So for most our relationship I was pushing for a live-in commitment. He would try... .moving partway in, spending more time with us. And then something would invariably blow it up. He clearly found it hard to adapt to life in a family. He has been a lifelong bachelor. His BPD/NPD symptoms became severe. From my perspective he could not admit any accountability of his difficulty adjusting, and blamed me and the kids. His reaction was to rage, break up with me, and then retreat back this place for a few weeks to a few months. Then he would reengage, idealize me briefly, and we'd be back on the push-pull cycle. After four years of this the kids have had enough. They don't want him back.

For the last six or more months moving in has not been on the table. We've dated and kept the kids largely out of it. I think maybe part of the reason things are going better is the lack of pressure on him. But I have struggled with the lack of commitment and what it means for my values.

And now boyfriend says he wants to sell his house and move in for good.   He says he is looking at rings   

Now, heaven help me and please forgive me... .I am the one having cold feet. Alarm bells go off in my head. I am scared he will move in and I will be stuck with his behaviors. And also to be blunt, he has been unemployed for over two years and I suspect his money is running out. He has other options (namely to sell his house, which is worth $$) but I worry moving in with me is also a way he is seeking identity and sanctuary. Which for him is going to set off every engulfment fear he has. He's never worried about abandonment as much as he has engulfment.

This is going to sound harsh, sorry, but I am worried about my own judgement here. Do I really want an unemployed man moving in to my home, and potentially upsetting my kids? WHY AM I EVEN CONSIDERING THIS? My own kids operate under the assumption that everyone here over the age 18 works. I have kids with disabilities and they still work and pay rent. I can see trouble looming if he moves in.

I have to acknowledge my role in this. I have not been happy in a dating relationship. He knows I want commitment. The whole long-term sexual relationship without marriage goes against my morals. So I feel a little trapped here by my own values and desires. He has a lot of wonderful qualities and despite the harsh reality of this post I do love him a lot.

Thoughts?

[ArleighBurke]

You've tried him living with you in the past, and it hasn't worked. How is now different? What changes have their been that make you think it'll be OK this time? I don't want to judge him before he moves in, but history shows... .

Perhaps instead of going from nothing to fulltime, you ease into it. Get him to move in for 1-2 nights/week for a few months first. See how that goes.

Because if he moves in 24/7, and things go bad, it'll be very hard and very messy to get him out.

[Notwendy]

One thought I had reading this, is, if he is unemployed, and has no money or place to go, and it doesn't work out, then what? Would you have to take some kind of legal/eviction action? What are the eviction laws in your state? Could you even do this- knowing he would have no place to go?

Taking this to focus on you- this is a struggle between what you wish for, and what is reality. Your values are such that you want a commitment. But do you want this kind of commitment with him- as he really is?- unemployed and with difficulty living in a family situation? Seems you want the value- a committed partner in your life, but is he the one you want it with?

Even though we may have a value- we also can use judgement. What is the purpose of dating? It is the stage where two people spend time together to see if they are compatible for the long run. Seems like a wise concept to me- because it takes some time to get to know someone and to determine that. Then, they, or one of them, can make a decision. I agree that long term dating may not be the ideal goal, but on the other hand, it can be a choice in the situation where two people want to see each other but are not suited to live together under one roof.

Seems you have over time, come to some realizations about him moving in with you. Your concerns are real for you. Now, your choice is to consider them, or put them aside and go with the wish you had for commitment. But even if you wished it, you also now have information that brings you concerns. It's OK to wish for something and then, with additional information, decide that perhaps it was not a good idea.

Your choices are: have him move in with you. Tell him you don't want to live together but still see each other, or end the relationship and hope to meet someone that you can live with. What I think may be happening is the fear you discussed before- that if you don't go along with his wishes, he will end the relationship. Now, the struggle is between your authenticity and your fear.

The other consideration is your kids. How would they feel about living with him. Whatever drama you bring into your home will affect them too.

[babyducks]

Hi HurtinNW,

Lots of stuff to think about here.  Of course alarm bells are going off in your head.  It would be pretty odd if they weren't.   

My first thought is it may be helpful to slow things down.   It's perfectly acceptable to say BF this is a big decision I need to take some time to consider it carefully.   I will give you an answer by the end of March.   Or what ever time frame is reasonable.

I think it's also perfectly acceptable to place some conditions around this.  Any potential move will require huge adjustments for a bunch of people.   Your conditions may very well be that you require a decent period of a harmonious r/s and for him to contribute financially to the household.

You are in the drivers seat here.   He can ask.    But you can negotiate.

'ducks

[HurtinNW]

Thank you all. Yes, I have a lot of conflicting fears and feelings.

One of our old patterns was he would start the process of moving in and drag his feet. I know now that his procrastination has little to do with me. He has a long history of procrastination and uses it to avoid declaring/deciding for himself. So one of my concerns is we would start that cycle again. He starts moving in, slows down the process, and the kids and I are in limbo with half his stuff here and the other half in his place, which I think emotionally becomes his safety valve. I felt helpless stuck in that cycle and don't want to return to it. It creates a lot of stress for the family.

Yet the other fear is he would actually follow through, and move in, and I would be "stuck" with him living here even if he backslides into his worst behavior.

A third fear is my own stability. I really struggle with long-term dating. I like stability and connection. My last relationship was 15 years and we lived together. I really like the reassurance of that. Dating while living in separate houses thing has been a struggle for me. Part of the struggle is emotional, the other part is just the work involved: trying to get everything done at work and with kids so I can go on a date is a lot of work. Of course that is preferable to living with someone who rages.

The kids are a huge piece of the issue, and the one part of my life where I am not codependent. I really don't want to dump more drama in their laps. They deserve to feel heard and have their needs count. Boyfriend does has a lot of great qualities when he is regulated... .the question is how regulated he can stay while in a family setting. During the times he was regulated he was super helpful. He likes to cook and clean, does chores, and was always ready to jump up and fetch tacos for the kids or whatever.

I'm starting to have less fear that he will end the relationship. I am realizing that despite all his break-ups, rages and claims of never seeing me again, he is very attached (in his own way) and the break-ups are his immature expressions, not what he really wants. He's scared to death of love and intimacy, though he hungers for it. Of course he could decide to make a permanent discard, but this worries me a lot less than it did. It would hurt me badly me but I also feel I am standing on much better ground emotionally myself. I don't want to live in fear of him breaking up with me.

I like the idea of having him move in 1-2 nights a week to start, with some expectations. Like ducks suggests, say I need to have a harmonious relationship for a period of time before full move in. The challenge is doing this in a boundary-setting way that I can follow through with if it doesn't happen. For instance, defining harmonious clearly to myself, and what my expectations are for the times he is here.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey HurtinNW, What if you were to set some preconditions to his moving in with you?  For example, one might be that he has to have a full time job before you will consider having him move in.  Another might be that he must be in therapy to address his anger management and rage issues.  Another condition could be something that relates to protecting your kids.  What I"m getting at is that it's a lot easier to move forward if the changes have ALREADY occurred, rather than hoping and waiting for something that might be unrealistic.

He's scared to death of love and intimacy, though he hungers for it.

You have identified one of the tenets of what I describe as the paradox of BPD.  Those w/BPD want love, but behave in unloveable fashion.  They seek stability, but do things to encourage drama and turmoil.  They have a fear of abandonment, but will push others way, etc.  You get the idea.  It's all part of living with BPD, in my view.  Suggest you take your time and proceed cautiously.  On some level, I think you already know that things could get much worse.

LuckyJim

[Notwendy]

I like the idea of a partial move in too, but for that to work, both people would need to be able to maintain and afford their own housing. You mentioned finances and unemployment as an issue for your BF and a possible motivator. I don't think that's his only reason for being with you but surely you would want to know that he wants to move in for the right reasons to take this step.

If he can not afford to have his own place then a partial move would not be feasible. Also - if things don't work out - it's hard enough to end or put a relationship on hold while knowing he has nowhere to go.

[formflier]

I think that a move in because you guys feel right about it would be a good thing.

A move in because of life circumstance is probably not a wise course of action.

Plus a pwBPD probably would deal to well with a deadline and a bunch of requirements to fulfill in order to meet a deadline and have a house.  I see lots of stress there.

FF

[HurtinNW]

So he came over today to help with chores, which was nice. He did a bunch of chores and then ran to the store for me, and after that we went out to eat. 

It was all quite pleasant, but even in that short dosage of real family time, I could see it wearing on him a bit.

Over dinner I validated him a lot, and we talked about various stuff, and moved on to different plan ideas. He responds well to me being curious, so I laid out some ideas to get his thoughts. This is where it got interesting. I think I did a good job of saying how I know we both want the relationship to be successful, etc. I elicited his concerns, his worries, his thoughts.

The interesting progression:

His first and immediate concern was his cat. The same cat he got during our last break-up. He is very attached to this cat (obviously). He talked a lot about how transitioning to moving in would mean leaving his cat alone, and then if he moved in, his cat might not like my cats, and most certainly our puppy would not behave well around his cat.

I was honestly a little stupefied by this. But then he got around to saying, somewhat sincerely, that his cat didn't matter as much as our relationship... .but he characterized this as not wanting to be seen as a guy who chose his cat over a relationship. His own sister once said about him that he cares more about what people think about him than what they feel, and this seemed to fit in this category. He has this odd way of creating emotional distance between himself and his decisions by talking about not wanting to be judged by others.

I tried to validate the good stuff, and clarified the rest. I said that I understood he cares a lot about the cat, etc. As usually happens when I do this, he retreated.

We moved on, and I suggested if he wants to move in he could stay over 2 nights a week, then we would increase it to 3 or 4, and set a date where we would decide if it was a good idea to pull the trigger for moving in.

In response he said he thought it would be easier on the cat and him if we did 2 days a week and then if it went well he would make the move-in.

I said I totally understood that, but it was important that both of us feel positive about it, and I didn't want him selling his house and moving into a situation where it wasn't right for people involved. I said I would need more "practice" to see it was working.

At this point he seemed to completely flip-flop. The cat was suddenly no longer a concern. He expressed worry that if it didn't work out he would lose me. I was able to speak authentically that I felt I deserved to be honored by the truth no matter what it was, and to make my own choice. I suggested that maybe dating and not living together would be more of what he wants. I could see him wrestle with this. I expressed how much I loved him, and validated it in a lot of ways.

The dinner ended without a decision... .but without a fight or turmoil, which might be the most mature moment I have seen him in. For a brief time he stepped out of the triangle and didn't have to be the victim, and I was neither rescuer or persecutor. No matter what happens with this that was a really subtle, beautiful thing to see.

And the whole cat thing strikes me wrong. I know I am a dog person and all... .but what is up with making it about his cat?

[babyducks]

And the whole cat thing strikes me wrong. I know I am a dog person and all... .but what is up with making it about his cat?

Sounds like you did a nice job taking care of you.   

Pets give unconditional love without expecting much responsibility in return.   Cats in particular are known to have a calming influence.    He probably feels better around the cat.

[formflier]

I have seen another pattern in some thread where people can't express their feelings, but are fine with saying "I don't think Fluffy would like it here, "

So it's kind of expressing feelings by proxy.

Obviously it is speculation on my part, but something to pay attention to.

FF

[Notwendy]

I have two thoughts - one being projections of his feelings on to the cat as FF says he is speaking for himself through the cat.

The other is that I know several "cat people"who would be that concerned about their cat!

[formflier]

The other is that I know several "cat people"who would be that concerned about their cat!

Any history of cat loving with him?

This is incredibly true.  There are cat people in our family and others that don't give a rip about what the cat does or doesn't do.

But, the cat lovers seem to be more attached to cats that dog lovers to dogs, IMO.

Personally,   I'm a one cat guy.  Multiple cats kinda bug me.  I would say this applies to cats in the house.  When on the farm, barn cats were a fact of life and actually a very needed part of the "ecosystem"  We spent a lot of time catching them and getting them fixed and looking after them the best we could.

The cat we have now is really D19s, who is off at college.  Big stress on the cat.  D10 has sort of taken over.  Cat is standoffish of me, but when the house is empty will come sit on the other side of the room and "talk" to me.  If I make a move towards her, off she goes.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

As a cat person, I hesitated for years in divorcing my first husband, knowing that it would be heartbreaking for the cat. So there you go... .

[HurtinNW]

You cat people are too funny!   

He is a cat lover. I think part of it is expressing his feelings by proxy. The other part is genuine concern, because he does have a strong attachment to his cat. I struggle understanding how someone could be happier alone with a cat, but I know it happens   

The third part is just me seeing the vast differences between us in life experience. I've raised kids, adopted, fostered, traveled the world. He's pretty much stayed in one place with his cats. No real relationships, limited life experience. This is not a judgement, but an observation. So even if he wants a change like this it is super overwhelming to him.

I think part of his struggle right now too is his finances. He does have that motivation and I think is having a hard time admitting it. He could sell his house, get an apartment, and take other routes. So I am not the only choice. But he hasn't worked for a few years and I think is panicking. I'd panic too. He worked for one place for 25 years before getting laid off and is in a field that is pretty much obsoleote now. He's in his 50s and I think is paralyzed by how to remake himself. Change is not his friend. I have a lot of empathy for him, but I also think any work is better than no work. Being unemployed is difficult for anyone, for a BPD/NPD with fragile self worth it is clearly a huge struggle. I don't know what I can do to help him, either. I've tried suggesting things and quickly realized that was not helpful. Since then I have been loving, supportive but also not enabling. It doesn't help my career is going well.

[formflier]

Lack of financial stability or a solid plan to get there worries me.

The goal would be that you are not part of the solution and also not part of the motivation to fix anything.  Stick to your role as a romantic partner.  Let life's natural consequences help him sort the rest out.

FF

[HurtinNW]

The goal would be that you are not part of the solution and also not part of the motivation to fix anything.  Stick to your role as a romantic partner.  Let life's natural consequences help him sort the rest out.

FF

FF, can you clarify this for me? You mean me setting a goal or his goal?

[formflier]

That is my recommended goal for you. 

Let them solve their own issues, less chance for you to "rescue" them from their problems.  More chances for them to make good decisions on their own.

I would be much less apprehensive about you guys moving in or doing a trial move in, if the financial footing was more equal.

OK, there is another thing at play here, and this is strictly FF advice (from a guys view on other guys).  And listen, I could be way off base here, but I would worry about your morphing from a romantic partner to more of a "mom/fixer" if he moves in without a job and becomes more dependent on you. 

First you solve the house for him, then the car, and so on and so on.  Guys will many times take the path of least resistance.  If you set the bar low for him to "get" to you, it is very likely that he will still go under it.  If you set the bar higher to get to you or to "get" you, while he might not jump over it (due to BPD or other things) he will jump higher than if the bar was set low.

For you and other ladies out there, don't be afraid to set the bar high, you deserve it.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Guys will many times take the path of least resistance.  If you set the bar low for him to "get" to you, it is very likely that he will still go under it.  If you set the bar higher to get to you or to "get" you, while he might not jump over it (due to BPD or other things) he will jump higher than if the bar was set low.

I totally agree with formflier. My ex-husband glommed onto a welfare mom after I kicked his ass to the curb and she was supporting him!

No way would I let some BPD guy move into my place without a job. I know you want to be supportive, but undoubtedly his self esteem has taken a big hit from the loss of employment and the fact that his skills are obsolete.   

[HurtinNW]

You are both right... .sadly. I don't think I can have him move in without concrete expectations and a plan. That means him contributing financially. It would be a set up for disaster for him to move in and be dependent in any way on me.

Now, how to approach this with him is another issue.

[Notwendy]

He is who he is, and if financial instability is part of his nature, then it isn't likely to be solved in a short time.

I'm not referring to income- but the pattern of employment and how someone manages money. Certainly there are hard working, reliable people who can face unemployment. However, someone who is impulsive and has difficulty with relationships can be financially unstable for those reasons, and that is more about who they are then unforseen circumstances.

I think it is possible that he may be motivated to make this work, get a job, and move in. But can he sustain it? I think the problem may not be at the move in, but if things don't work out and he has no place to go, then I think it would be difficult to ask him to. I don't think people think of this- as they don't anticipate or want a relationship to end, but if this is a trial move in, then I think the hardest part would be to ask someone you care about to move out if they have no place to go and no finances to get a place.

[formflier]

You are both right, sadly. I don't think I can have him move in without concrete expectations and a plan. 

HurtinNW,

I'm a language guy, probably can be a bit overprecise sometimes.   But in situations like this, I think precision is key.

Expectations aren't worth anything.  Results are.

"I don't think I can have him move in without time tested results and a plan for the future"

To me, that sentence I just wrote would make me comfortable. 

Listen, I'm unemployed right now, (and yesterdays interview went well! ) so I am a big example of stuff happens to people, many times it is beyond their control.  For me, I dabbled in the world of politics for a while.  For those that "know" me on here, is anyone surprised I am not "flexible" enough to work for a board of 7 politicians?      There was also some public knowledge of BPD crazyness in my life that made it a double whammy.

Anyway, life lesson learned and I am doing executive interviews now as far away from politics as I can.

But, if I was trying to woo a woman right now to feel secure about me moving into her house or her moving into mine, I could show 5-6 different income streams from my work activities outside a normal job with a W-2. 

If you guy has other sources of income and is making a real effort to hang on in the face of true adversity, then perhaps I warned you too much.

I got the vibe that he lost a job and has been burning through resources while letting life pass him by, which if true is a major 

Anyway, didn't want to get too deep in my advice before checking my assumptions.

Note:  This is the maddening part about my wife's insecurities with me and her railing on me about not having a job.  Yes she has a job and produces income.  I would probably be mad if I actually ran the ratio and since I am doing taxes today I will probably figure it out anyway.  But I think last year I brought in about 90% of household income, yet "I haven't worked to support my family in over a year"    Sigh,

FF

[Notwendy]

What I am trying to allude to is the behavioral patterns that involve financial difficulties.

Yes, there are hard working people who due to circumstances beyond their control are not employed.

Then, there is chronic underemployment or unemployment due to difficulties with being employed, such as not getting along with co-workers, not following through with tasks, not following directions.

Financial difficulties can result from being impulsive, not saving, overspending. This can be independent of income.

It is more the behavior that is associated with employment/financial issues that can be revealing. I know people who are unemployed because of anger issues- yelling at boss/co-worker/customers. I also know people with good incomes who are in debt because of overspending. These are problems with the person- not just the finances.

[HurtinNW]

Thanks for in the input. Yes, his unemployment isn't just about bad luck and getting laid off.

His employment history is he spent 25 years at one place, in a field that was declining. By his own admission they allowed him to develop terrible work habits... .coming in late, blowing deadlines, that sort of thing. At one time he was a rising star in his field, and was actually recruited into that job. He stayed through years of shrinking budgets and rounds of lay-offs. His work is specialized and it is not like there were places to go, but he also failed to take action to remake a career.

I was in the same field and saw the writing on the wall years ago and found a new career. So did a lot of our mutual friends. Others hung until the bitter end, so he is not the only one.  

So over two years ago he was laid off with a small severance package. The business has since pretty much died, and with it his particular position. What has happened since goes to what a lot of you have been saying.

He fell into a depressive funk and pretty much didn't do anything for six months. He had a number of friends coach him to immediately make use of connections, find some parallel work. A lot of his symptoms worsened. In the time since I have seen him make some efforts to find work. I know he has applied at places. He has interviewed several times... .and each time failed to get the job. He has done a little freelance work. But he lets months pass between applying for places, and seems to have this lackadasical approach to job hunting. For instance he waits until the very last minute and has missed deadlines. He has admitted to me that he has never had to look for work and part of him is still expecting someone to approach him. He admits he didn't keep his skill set sharpened. For instance, at his old job he refused to adapt to newer technology, and now most places want it.

I don't think he is aware of the behaviors he has that are probably keeping him from work. For instance, he could be doing more freelance work. But a major source of that dried up because he told someone there he couldn't work with their boss (!). He refuses to apply for low-paying jobs that might not give money but give satisfaction. He has an attitude he wants a job that 1) Gives him the same sense of pride and identity as the old job. It was a very high profile public position, and he was used to being the star of the show 2) Gives the same pay. Sorry Charlie, that is just not going to happen.

So long story short for over two years he has been unemployed. During that time he burned through most his savings. He says he has enough for a few more months. He owns a nice home which he can sell. That is the extent of his resources.

In the meantime, my career has done very well. He genuinely doesn't seem to see all the hard work involved in that, or the sacrifices. He is good at identifying some of his challenges. He speaks openly about having trouble selling himself, adapting to change, all these things. He doesn't see the other challenges, which include his entitlement. He fails to address the problems he does identify. Instead I see him finding ways to distract himself. The cat is one   Ha. Joking, cat people! But he does spend a lot of time petting the cat and sleeping. Lately he has been spending lots of time taking care of his ailing father. Which is nice, but another way weeks pass between job applications... .

When I ask him what he pictures doing in my place, he talks about being a house husband, freelancing to contribute to the income, and helping support me with my career and kids. Now, he is really good at some of that. But I don't think it is enough for his identity or me either.

I have serious misgivings now for the reasons you all have given (thank you for helping me clarify my feelings!). Even if it works for the short term, I am looking a few years down the road. Say he sells his house, moves in, spends the money he makes selling the house, continues to not find a job, feels worse about himself all the time... .that could be a very bad scene.

I'm trying to figure out how to approach this with him... .any input would be much appreciated.

[Notwendy]

I don't know what the value of approaching this with him is. He is who he is, and he is well aware of his issues with unemployment. All I can imagine the outcome of this being is that he would feel shame, criticism and rejection.

He is who he is, and not enabling him means letting him deal with the consequences of his unemployment. Only then, will he learn that being unemployed is not good for his survival, or his relationships, and when ( if ) he learns that, he may or may not decide to change. If you bring this up with him, he will focus his anger and blame on you, and so not face the consequences of his behavior.

One of the points I learned from working on co-dependency is to make my reasons about me, and own them. Making the reasons for your hesitation about him is focusing your reasons on something else but you- it is blaming. It is also being co-dependent and reactive " I feel this way because of YOU and dependent on YOU changing or not. "

Owning our reasons is about owning our boundaries and values. You are concerned about him moving in because- you do not wish to be in a relationship dilemma resulting from his employment issues. You do not wish to be enabling him or rescuing him. You do not wish him to be financially dependent on you. Make this about your own boundaries, and not (co) dependent on something about him.

[formflier]

HurtinNW,

OK, FF is many people.  I think I know quite a bit about BPDish people, as a Navy Commanding Officer I counseled and gave advice to lots of my Sailors about life issues, I'm also a Dad with 4 daughters.  Yes, my "thinking" changes when I put on those different hats.   Different point of views and all that.

Here is the thing.  No matter which hat I wear, I can't figure out an angle where I would recommend that you even let this guy do a "trial move in" of 1 or 2 nights a week.  Big   here.

OK, probably going to get myself in trouble trying to get to far inside the mind of another woman, but I think Cat Familiar had a thread about wanting a man and ending up with a boy.  I'm hoping she can add some to what I write from a woman's point of view.

Right now, you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have a boy that needs to do some maturing.  Please don't get in the way of that, or assist in that.  He needs to grow a bigger pair of balls and learn to face life.

Yep, I just said that.   

You have a family to raise and I don't see anything wrong with you erecting proper boundaries between your romantic life and your family life until such time as, the proper growth occurs. 

Bottom line if you were my daughter.  I would (as I regularly do) remind them of how precious and wonderful they are and that they deserve a guy that is willing to climb tall mountains to get to them.  I also regularly remind them that dating is not about being "fair" to boys.  It's about evaluating the character of a man that will someday be the leader of their family.

egads, I've gotten pretty fare up here on my high horse.  Not sure how to get down.   

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I totally echo formflier's comments.

My ex-husband was very adept at getting me to "take care" of him. After he split up with me and left our joint business, he was living with his welfare mom-girlfriend and expected me to give him an "allowance" while we were still married, before the divorce was final. And I did! It wasn't until I asked a contractor who was doing some work for me if I was being unreasonable to not give him extra so he could take his girlfriend on a short vacation to the beach. I'll never forget the look on this guy's face. It was then I truly woke up to how I had been scammed by my soon to be ex for years.

[HurtinNW]

I don't know what the value of approaching this with him is. He is who he is, and he is well aware of his issues with unemployment. All I can imagine the outcome of this being is that he would feel shame, criticism and rejection.

He is who he is, and not enabling him means letting him deal with the consequences of his unemployment. Only then, will he learn that being unemployed is not good for his survival, or his relationships, and when ( if ) he learns that, he may or may not decide to change. If you bring this up with him, he will focus his anger and blame on you, and so not face the consequences of his behavior.

One of the points I learned from working on co-dependency is to make my reasons about me, and own them. Making the reasons for your hesitation about him is focusing your reasons on something else but you- it is blaming. It is also being co-dependent and reactive " I feel this way because of YOU and dependent on YOU changing or not. "

Owning our reasons is about owning our boundaries and values. You are concerned about him moving in because- you do not wish to be in a relationship dilemma resulting from his employment issues. You do not wish to be enabling him or rescuing him. You do not wish him to be financially dependent on you. Make this about your own boundaries, and not (co) dependent on something about him.

Good points! When I said I don't know how to approach him, I meant how do I establish with clarity for myself my own boundaries, and how do I communicate them to him (or not)? How do I make this about me and communicate it? I don't want to enable him. I don't want to have him financially dependent on me. How do I communicate that to him in a non-shaming way?

[HurtinNW]

FF and Catfamiliar, I really appreciate your comments. It is hard for me to step out of this issue. My own history rears up. I was not raised with any set of standards in this department. FF I especially appreciate what you say because I did not have a role model for a father in my own life. I am trying hard to teach my kids about what to expect in relationships and here I am modeling much the opposite.

And bottom line is I am afraid to let him fail. I am afraid if I don't rescue him in some way he will continue to slide further down the path he is on.

Jeez, I didn't even know I was engaging in the rescue component until now.

I do feel bad because the time we were dating (especially before he got laid off) I was the one who was all about commitment. Now it feels like I am the one backtracking. But it is hard not to notice that he didn't want to move in until there was a financial need on his part.

I am really struggling with what kind of relationship I can have with him given the circumstances. And as I just posted, how to define that for myself and communicate those boundaries to him in ways that he doesn't use to make me the problem. As notwendy says, he could easily use this focus his blame and anger on me.

Any ideas for how to communicate around this to him?

Many thanks to you all. This group has been so helpful to me. Thank you.

[formflier]

Don't feel bad for what you didn't have and don't know.  We all have "holes" in our life that need us to do some work and get the personal growth going.

Validation is huge for me.

So is listening (without being critical), maybe listening with my emotions vice my head.   I know for sure there are a bunch of ladies out there that "get" part of my wife's perspective about "needing to be heard".  It's not about the details, it's about her emotions.  I get that in my head, but have a hard time putting it into practice.

Anyway, HurtinNW, good on you for realizing you have a gap in the male role model area.   I would be intentional about working on that for a year or two and then re-evaluating. 

I'm even more please that you realize you are afraid to let him fail.  Watching someone fail and struggle is hard.  It would be even harder for me to "rescue" them from the consequences, knowing that it would short circuit their growth prospects.

My oldest son is a super smart guy.  Missed acing the ACT by 1 point.  He got a bit full of himself in high school and I saw a train wreck with an AP class coming a mile away.  I spoke to him about it, he assured me it was all under control and my wife and I both made a wise decision to let him blow it.  And he did.  Flubbed the test and all that work was for nothing.  However, the growth that came from that failure was huge.  Consequences drive change!

What could a plan to fill in your "male role model" gap look like?

FF