I feel confused (pt. 2)...Could use some support

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is my continuation of my original thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290050.0) and also I need some support in the aftermath of my last post on there:

"It's definitely the pattern and I can see it.  She saw me right after I had the news and I didn't hide my emotions well enough, she instantly asked what was wrong.  At first, I resisted, but then I gave into the dark side and let it out.  She than proceeded to tell me all about how he knows we've been talking, she's told him her past and that included me, has no secrets from him, he has access to her phone whenever he wants it, etc etc.  She claims she told him about us meeting.  Supposedly he's fine with that.  This poor guy doesn't stand a chance.

At the end, I told her thanks for speaking to me and that I hoped she took care of herself and him.  She than sent me this text: "I want to be a friend to you. You were my best friend I told him that as well."  I didn't respond, nor am I going to.

The whole things been F'ed up.  Especially with what I told her last Friday.  Completely unfair to me."

I didn't respond to the text, but she did see me passing in the hall and she asked me if I was going to respond.  I told her, politely, that I appreciated her wanting to be my friend but that I was going to have to decline.  I told her that we couldn't be friends because #1 I would want more with her and that isn't fair to me to be placed in a 'friend zone' after everything that had happened over the past year and #2 that she broke my confidence as a friend by telling L (the new guy) "all about us" and has continued to keep him abreast of our talks without even mentioning to me that she was that far into a r/s with him (or a r/s at all, for that matter). 

This was said because I am a very private person and I feel like telling someone thats a complete stranger intimate details of my life was a violation of my trust.  I get she's wanting to be honest with L and also "isn't ashamed of" her "feelings she had for me" (her words in quotes) but she didn't even bother to talk to me about it prior.  I get that she may not understand the issue with that.  But, I feel comfortable enough to say she knew I would be upset by sharing that sort of information with someone I work with (and don't know), as she said many times throughout our r/s that she knew how private of a person I am.

With that, I walked off.  And yet, I feel like crap.  I feel like L's going to make it.  I know, deep inside, he won't.  But he's getting everything with her that we had talked about having.  What I mean is she's having a life with him.  The life that was promised to me.  This is where I need you guys.  Tell me I'm nuts for thinking this guy's going to succeed where I failed.  I know it, I just need to hear it.

[Lonely_Astro]

This is my continuation of my original thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290050.0) and also I need some support in the aftermath of my last post on there:

"It's definitely the pattern and I can see it.  She saw me right after I had the news and I didn't hide my emotions well enough, she instantly asked what was wrong.  At first, I resisted, but then I gave into the dark side and let it out.  She than proceeded to tell me all about how he knows we've been talking, she's told him her past and that included me, has no secrets from him, he has access to her phone whenever he wants it, etc etc.  She claims she told him about us meeting.  Supposedly he's fine with that.  This poor guy doesn't stand a chance.

At the end, I told her thanks for speaking to me and that I hoped she took care of herself and him.  She than sent me this text: "I want to be a friend to you. You were my best friend I told him that as well."  I didn't respond, nor am I going to.

The whole things been F'ed up.  Especially with what I told her last Friday.  Completely unfair to me."

I didn't respond to the text, but she did see me passing in the hall and she asked me if I was going to respond.  I told her, politely, that I appreciated her wanting to be my friend but that I was going to have to decline.  I told her that we couldn't be friends because #1 I would want more with her and that isn't fair to me to be placed in a 'friend zone' after everything that had happened over the past year and #2 that she broke my confidence as a friend by telling L (the new guy) "all about us" and has continued to keep him abreast of our talks without even mentioning to me that she was that far into a r/s with him (or a r/s at all, for that matter). 

This was said because I am a very private person and I feel like telling someone thats a complete stranger intimate details of my life was a violation of my trust.  I get she's wanting to be honest with L and also "isn't ashamed of" her "feelings she had for me" (her words in quotes) but she didn't even bother to talk to me about it prior.  I get that she may not understand the issue with that.  But, I feel comfortable enough to say she knew I would be upset by sharing that sort of information with someone I work with (and don't know), as she said many times throughout our r/s that she knew how private of a person I am.

With that, I walked off.  And yet, I feel like crap.  I feel like L's going to make it.  I know, deep inside, he won't.  But he's getting everything with her that we had talked about having.  What I mean is she's having a life with him.  The life that was promised to me.  This is where I need you guys.  Tell me I'm nuts for thinking this guy's going to succeed where I failed.  I know it, I just need to hear it.

[peace74]

Dealing with a breakup is difficult enough, let alone adding BPD into the mix.  Not only are you dealing with that but you have to work with her and now her new bf works with you too.    She's created a triangulation at the work place. 

Anyway, I have read your posts and think you're very insightful and disciplined in your dealings with her.  I will reassure you that her relationship with him will still have all those BPD components.  But when it comes to matters of the heart, sometimes it's just going to hurt anyway.  Just remember that no matter what happens with her and anyone else, it does not take away from your experience and the relationship you had.  You have to validate that yourself.  You also have to keep in mind your end goal and what you truly want in a relationship.

Do you think, whether consciously or unconsciously, she started a relationship with someone you both work with to keep you hooked? Or for the attention or to get you to fight for her?  Or was it just a coincidence that she ends up dating someone you both work with.

It has to be beyond difficult to keep your resolve - Hang in there!

[Learning Fast]

LA,

It's not going to work with L. No way. You have a better chance of seeing a unicorn tomorrow.  Your head knows this but your heart is unconvinced.

I've been on this site for almost 18 months, have followed many threads and read many posts.  I have yet to read of one solid example of a successful non/BPD relationship without self-awareness, commitment and long-term therapy. Or perhaps where the non will accept the disorder for what it is and opt to tolerate the relationship (You mentioned that J claimed to be going to DBT but after recent events do you think that she is credible on this score?).

Read the other boards for those who are trying to work on their relationships and you'll find ongoing heartbreak and frustration.  Check out psychforums.com (I'm a member there as well) where those with BPD describe how relationships can be so challenging that some opt to remain alone.  

Just for clarification---I'm not attempting to be critical of those with BPD---only clinical.  I love my ex, have empathy for her plight and released with grace.  dI hate my ex's disorder but still love my disordered ex (if that makes any sense).  Unfortunately they come as a pair.  It won't be long before L's head starts to spin.

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

Dealing with a breakup is difficult enough, let alone adding BPD into the mix.  Not only are you dealing with that but you have to work with her and now her new bf works with you too.    She's created a triangulation at the work place. 

Anyway, I have read your posts and think you're very insightful and disciplined in your dealings with her.  I will reassure you that her relationship with him will still have all those BPD components.  But when it comes to matters of the heart, sometimes it's just going to hurt anyway.  Just remember that no matter what happens with her and anyone else, it does not take away from your experience and the relationship you had.  You have to validate that yourself.  You also have to keep in mind your end goal and what you truly want in a relationship.

Do you think, whether consciously or unconsciously, she started a relationship with someone you both work with to keep you hooked? Or for the attention or to get you to fight for her?  Or was it just a coincidence that she ends up dating someone you both work with.

It has to be beyond difficult to keep your resolve - Hang in there!

Thank you for your post.  You pose an interesting question, one I have thought about.  It crossed my mind that she chose a co-worker because she knew it would upset me by doing so.  I mean, after all, not only do I have to work with her but I now have to work with her bf as well... .right?  As you said, instant triangle: her, her bf, and her "best friend", as she put me earlier today.

Do I think it was a coincidence that she ended up dating someone at work?  No.  After all, look at us.  Really, I came to understand that J didn't really have any friends, per se, outside of work.  She would mention this girl or that from time to time, but I can't think of a time she ever done anything with them.  Of the one I do know, they had a falling out and she doesn't speak to her anymore (I still am unsure of the true reason).  It's funny how J ran this girl down to me about how she was behaving and treating people, when J was doing just as much (if not worse).

But, of course, she had started seeing a guy in December, while she had me in limbo.  This guy, R, she claimed to be a friend but hid the fact she had been out with him "a couple of times".  So, there was a bit more to it... .I guess.  When I found out about R, I ended our r/s 'officially'.  She was also seeing the new guy (L) around this time from what I've been told.  So there's 3 guys in a month, essentially.  But, R doesnt work with us and when I told her then I wished her luck with him, she kept sending me signals that she wanted us to try again.  But something seemed off to me, so I didn't do that.  It was somewhere around this time that L came into the picture.  Of course, J claims she "didn't do anything wrong" because we were over by the time L came into the picture.  That's sort of 1/2 correct.  We may have been, but we were still in contact, and she never told me about L.  I simply deduced she was seeing someone and she told me she had been "on a couple of dates".  That statement, alone, was a lie or she hooked L quickly.  Either way, she may "always be honest" with L but she certainly hasn't been with me (shocking, right?).

That brings me to the other point of that: why is he ok with it?  I mean, you have this girl that you think is better than sliced bread, she's confessed all her sins to you, tells you she's had this r/s with a guy at work and what all he meant to her, and that he's been back in contact with her, that they've talked about meeting each other, and yet... .that's ok?  I mean, some where, some how, someone's lying.  Either to themselves or someone else.  Or he's so passive that he's going to stand idling by as his gf goes to meet a guy she just as recently as Friday told she "missed you, all of you" and will "love forever and always".  I even saw the guy a couple weeks ago, we were one on one with each other (super rare, btw), and he didn't even have the sack to confront me about it.  I felt like he was acting weird, but I didn't realize until now why.  I mean... .this sap doesn't stand a chance trying to go toe to toe with her, even if she's been as honest as she claims (which I seriously doubt).

My heads spinning from all this.  I mean this guy is getting the best possible version of J anyone could.  She's (allegedly still) in DBT, is free and clear of her divorce, and is an open book.  He doesn't have the history with her I do, so if ever there was a chance for success, this is it.  From the best I can tell, he's quite attentive to her (her cooks her breakfast that she stops by and gets every morning - Im sure among other things... .I remember how my mornings with her were), cooks her dinner when he's off from work (he works an evening shift), brings her a cup of coffee when he comes to work, and does all sorts of things for her.  I am presuming she does things for him too (  ). 

I know I must be rambling now.  I'm getting caught in the dangerous loop of thinking about what their life is like.  The life that was supposed to be mine.  This is where I need the slap of reality that it's fake, that it will crumble.  I need to be reminded that not all is well in Denmark, something is rotten.

[Lonely_Astro]

LA,

It's not going to work with L. No way. You have a better chance of seeing a unicorn tomorrow.  Your head knows this but your heart is unconvinced.

I've been on this site for almost 18 months, have followed many threads and read many posts.  I have yet to read of one solid example of a successful non/BPD relationship without self-awareness, commitment and long-term therapy. Or perhaps where the non will accept the disorder for what it is and opt to tolerate the relationship (You mentioned that J claimed to be going to DBT but after recent events do you think that she is credible on this score?).

Read the other boards for those who are trying to work on their relationships and you'll find ongoing heartbreak and frustration.  Check out psychforums.com (I'm a member there as well) where those with BPD describe how relationships can be so challenging that some opt to remain alone.  

Just for clarification---I'm not attempting to be critical of those with BPD---only clinical.  I love my ex, have empathy for her plight and released with grace.  dI hate my ex's disorder but still love my disordered ex (if that makes any sense).  Unfortunately they come as a pair.  It won't be long before L's head starts to spin.

LF

LF, I'm fairly confident that she has stopped going to DBT.  I'm not sure though.  She told me the other day when we were talking that she was still going.  If she is, she needs to have a serious talk with her T.  I mean, seriously.  But, yet, I still have the sinking feeling that she has hit the hallmark of management (at least on the path of it): she's self-aware (check), she's in long term therapy (check), and she's claiming to be committed (check).  L may have the keys to the kingdom. 

I'm fighting my primal urge to hope to see them crash and burn.  I know it's bad to say, but I can feel it burning inside of me.  I know it will more likely than not happen.  Not today or tomorrow, but it will happen... .I guess.  Maybe it won't.  I understand, in my mind, that she isn't cured of her BPD.  She just feels invincible right now because she's riding the rush of a new r/s (let's face it, it IS in it's infancy, isn't it?).  All is right with the world.  I mean, after all, if she was really that much in love with this guy, why would she have said the things to me she has?  And why is he putting up with her talking to her ex (regardless of the topic)?  I actually am curious if she is telling him what's being said or telling him I'm calling her names and/or running her down like she told me M did to her?  I have become essentially M in the dynamic, it seems.

[peace74]

hello again. I hope you're feeling better today.

I know you question why this guy would be willing to pursue a relationship with J when it seems obvious there are red flags and issues there.  I warned a family member (who my ex and I were both friends with) of the cousin my ex replaced me with.  I know how the lies can be.  They say one thing to one person and another to you.  I flat out told her that he was telling me he wanted to reconcile and that he was in my bed not more than a few weeks ago.  It's not something I would normally do.  I was always the one that was out of circulation with everyone and it made it so easy to be kept in the dark about what my ex was saying and doing.  Anyway, even with the warning they proceeded in the relationship jumping in head first.  She spent the holidays with him and my son reported that she was cleaning and cooking for him.  The relationship has already been downgraded to "friends" in two months.  I honestly think she caught on a lot more quickly to the things that were obviously wrong.  Anyway, you have no idea to what extent she is being honest with him.  They also have an uncanny ability to not outright lie but twist things or downplay things just enough to make you feel like they are being honest.  As for him, love is blind.  Most of us here saw red flags or knew things weren't as they should be but continued on anyway. 

She tends to follow the pattern of having more than one guy in the picture at one time.  From reading your posts she seems to either have an overlap or someone on the side she feels would be willing if she chooses.  At times it seems she's flipped back and forth between them.  I know how it feels to not want to wish failure on their new relationships but at the same time not being able to help yourself sometimes.  The bottom line is we really don't have to anyway.  Even if she is in DBT, it takes time and effort and still many times it doesn't succeed.  It's obvious that the BPD issues are still there at this point so it's only a matter of time before she sabotages this relationship or he decides it's not worth it to him.  There are some that do work out.  My first husband was uBPD with some Narc traits.  He met a girl not long after he discarded me and has married and been with her 10 yrs. However, she has reached out to me several times and their relationship has not been healthy.  A lot of abuse (physical and emotionally), suicide attempts, cheating, push/pull, etc.  The bottom line is she has chosen to put up with it.  I couldn't. 

In my opinion, J does have love and feelings for you.  I think the BPD just gets in the way.  I think that if she has her way she will continue to say things to you that make her feel like she is securing you for future use.  This pretty much puts all the responsibility and pain upon your shoulders.  You have to make the choices that are in your best interest.  I get so tempted sometimes to entertain the thought of getting back together with my ex and it working out enough to at least be together.  I know to much and have come out of denial enough to know that it just is not going to happen.  It really sucks to love and care about someone but know you can't be with them.  What makes it worse in your situation is you don't really get to escape the strings that pull at the heart.  I see my ex every week and talk to him most days because we share a child together.  I know how hard it is emotionally when I do see him.  It chips away at my resolve sometimes.  Also the more we have detached and stopped sharing emotionally the more normal he seems.  But right when I start to really miss him and question how bad it really was, he has an episode and does something that reminds me why I can't be with him.

Stay focused and concentrate on doing things for yourself.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend dating but getting out and meeting new friends and forming healthy relationships has helped me a lot.

[Lonely_Astro]

Thank you, peace.  I'm getting by today.  One foot in front of the other.  I had to speak to J at work today, I simply told her I was expecting a delivery and to notify me when it arrived.  She said that she would and I responded with a thank you.  I than turned to walk away and I could see she was still staring at me.  It's like she was waiting for something else to follow.  I'm not 100% convinced that she grasped what I said to her yesterday about not being friends.  Or, maybe, she s expecting some other exchange between us.  Maybe I was looking into it to much.  I'm not sure. 

Maybe one day I'll be in a place to have superficial workplace talk with her, but now isn't the time for that.  It's killing me to not talk to her, but of course, there's no point in that.  After all, this (globally speaking) isn't about me.  She wants to remain "a friend" to me so I am in orbit, in her stable.  My personal feelings aren't even a consideration. That's the sad part, how unfair of a thing she asked for and did so, so nonchalantly.  I do agree that somewhere inside of her, she does love me and have feelings for me.  If she didn't, I don't think she would've spent the past year with me like she did.  I also don't think she would've spent the past couple of months telling me the things she has.  Albeit she shouldn't be telling me those things and I certainly don't agree with her "hiding" L from me.  She may not have hid me from him, but she certainly hid him from me.  That's why I believe she hasn't been as forthcoming as she claims to have been with L.  But, I won't  presume to know what has been discussed between them. After all, it's not like I can ask her and get the truth.

Last night, I was very restless. I did have a rather unusual dream that did involve her. I suppose it is my mind trying to reconcile what has happened over the past few weeks, at a minimum.   Today has been a somewhat strange day for me. I don't feel as bad as I did yesterday, maybe I did get a true sense of closure due to the finality of knowing she is fully involved in a new relationship.  I feel, not as heavy today.  I expect to have some struggles, but I feel a little more at ease to finally have a conclusion to this, you know?   I still want to talk about it.  I want to get it out there.   

Looking at it with a different perspective, she isn't as confident with L as she would like to appear.   We could get into what I'm about to say next as either being her or her BPD, but if she were as secure as she likes to present, what was the purpose of keeping me around like she did? After all as I have said, she may have been open and honest with L but  she hasn't been with me. Is there some sort of ulterior motive behind that? We will never know.   Maybe she wanted to keep a friend, maybe she wanted to keep a back up, maybe she wanted to secure me for the future if she needs it. Anyway you look at it, it's not about me, it's about her.

You are correct that she has a pattern of keeping guys around (overlap, standby, whatever).  If you want to  apply that pattern, it's not very hard to see that's what she was doing with me. She wanted me to be a "friend" but yet she wasn't being honest with me about her relationship status. So, that goes back to the question of what were her actual motives. Maybe she didn't have one, but maybe she did.

I also see the pattern of idealization.  Right now, he's perfect for her in every way.  I was like that once for her, too. Until I wasn't.  Of course, what I see is L is being devalued already (or at the very least being disrespected).  From what I understand, L has some low self esteem issues (this was told to me by the person who told me about the two of them).  If that's the case, I'm sure he feels like he's won the lottery with her (I would, hell, I did and I knew what I was getting into).  This will destroy the guy if that's true and this falls apart.  But, maybe it'll work out for them, after all he'll do whatever to keep her if he does have self esteem issues.  Maybe that's what she loves about him.  As you said, for him, love is blind.  He hasn't been around her long enough to notice the flags.  If he has, he's ignoring them.  I wondered last night if when she had text me after work a few days ago (or any time it was after work) if she actually told him I was texting her or if she told him I was her mom (or someone else). She did that to me.  Sometimes it was her mom, but other times she would tell me but be very guarded (I feel those times weren't, obviously).

On that note, the person who told me about them was also talking about how rude J talked to her mom on the phone ("like a dog".  Apparently her mom told her that her dad had applied for a job in another state and if he got it, they would be moving. J apparently shouted "I'm not going to be moving to [state]!" and slammed the phone down.  Which is an odd thing for an almost 30 year old to say, right?  It would be, for a normal almost 30 year old.  But that's not J, is it?  How I heard that story was a teenager being told they were moving and she was going to have to give up her bf/life and move away, not an adult being told that their parents were going to move.  Make sense?   So, it's like L was being pushed back for her mom (I was often pushed to the side when it came to her family... .or anyone else for that matter).  I don't see that aspect ever changing.  J's mom isn't stable and I am certain has some sort of PD (she seems like a Queen BP with heavy N traits). J also has a very strong symbiotic r/s with her mom. But, I also have only gotten one side of the stories, mostly.  But I've heard from others that support what I said about her mom.

Anyway, I know this has been long winded.  I'm still working stuff out in my head and heart.  One step at a time, I guess.  Slow and steady.

[steelwork]

Do I think it was a coincidence that she ended up dating someone at work?  No.  After all, look at us.  Really, I came to understand that J didn't really have any friends, per se, outside of work.  She would mention this girl or that from time to time, but I can't think of a time she ever done anything with them.

This strikes a chord with me. My ex doesn't really have friends either--just some superficial virtual friendships, and a brother he's close to (trauma bonded with). And the person he moved on with is someone we (for lack of a better explanation) worked with while we were together, who was kind of our nemesis. I mean, we didn't take it seriously, just kind of joked about her, usually. But she was extremely competitive with me in particular. He got more upset about that than I did; I tended to shrug it off. And then look who he ends up with! Coincidence?

[Lonely_Astro]

Do I think it was a coincidence that she ended up dating someone at work?  No.  After all, look at us.  Really, I came to understand that J didn't really have any friends, per se, outside of work.  She would mention this girl or that from time to time, but I can't think of a time she ever done anything with them.

This strikes a chord with me. My ex doesn't really have friends either--just some superficial virtual friendships, and a brother he's close to (trauma bonded with). And the person he moved on with is someone we (for lack of a better explanation) worked with while we were together, who was kind of our nemesis. I mean, we didn't take it seriously, just kind of joked about her, usually. But she was extremely competitive with me in particular. He got more upset about that than I did; I tended to shrug it off. And then look who he ends up with! Coincidence?

I don't think it's an intended one.  I think they attach where they find them.  Which happens to be at work.  As I said, she would mention talking to a couple of different girls and about how they're "best friends" yet I can't recall a time she ever said she was going out with them.  She was always with her mom (of course, this was also a smokescreen when she was with guys, too).  There were a few times I knew for a fact she was with her mom though.

Even now, she's clinging to L.  From what was said, they spend every waking moment together somehow (phone, person, etc).  How long can that be sustainable?  How is that healthy?   Being in a serious r/s, I get it.  You want to be around each other.  But, you also can't sustain that kind of contact... .evtually that in and of itself becomes unhealthy. 

I was talking to someone earlier that I think she's moved from seducer to clinger.  Maybe it's a hybrid.  Either way, it isn't healthy.  At least that's what I'm telling myself.

[steelwork]

I don't think it's an intended one.  I think they attach where they find them. 

Well, yeah, that's a more generous interpretation. It was just really weird to hear that this was who he got with. He was audibly embarrassed himself when he told me, and he rushed to add, "She's not like we thought. She's really nice!"

[Lonely_Astro]

I don't think it's an intended one.  I think they attach where they find them. 

Well, yeah, that's a more generous interpretation. It was just really weird to hear that this was who he got with. He was audibly embarrassed himself when he told me, and he rushed to add, "She's not like we thought. She's really nice!"

What I meant was that I don't think they set out to intentionally "catch" a co-worker to hurt us.  I think they just don't have anything/anywhere else.  Well, some go on the Internet, but that's not what I mean.

There are just crummy people out there, BPD or not.  I'm sure some get involved with co workers to hurt their exes (I feel this way about mine) but I'm not saying they all do.