Fear of abandonment/engulfment or something else?

[Larmoyant]

It’s taken me a long time, but with the help of a fellow poster I’ve finally been able to make sense of the concept of fear of abandonment/engulfment and it explains much of my ex’s come here/go away behaviour. If my understanding is correct then many of his abusive behaviours were a direct result of these fears and the basis of the push/pull behaviour?

I have a problem though as this seems to imply that these abusive behaviours are some sort of defence mechanism and they aren’t deliberate. But what if some of his abuse was deliberate?

For example, he left me waiting out in the cold and dark once. I wasn’t able to reach his mobile. He later claimed that his phone had lost power, but then said he’d fallen asleep, then said he’d got held up by his daughter. The excuses kept changing. I suppose I could fit that into the fear theory, but what about his use of dating sites and his amusement and enjoyment when I discovered this, him ‘jokingly’ telling me that it was a shame we got back together because they’d been a couple of women he’d wanted to meet. I believe he knew full well that he was inflicting injury and was being purposefully cruel.

I would also describe some of his behaviour as almost sadistic. For example, a particularly painful memory was when my dog was dying. I rang him one morning in floods of tears as she had deteriorated and I was taking her to the vet. He said he’d wait by the phone for news. It was heartbreaking news. She was in too much pain and I had to have her euthanised. My heart was broken and I was sobbing in the vet. I tried to phone him, but no response. I tried for ages and when I finally got him he said he’d left the phone in the bathroom.  Nothing in the world will persuade me that this wasn’t deliberate and I can’t fit that into the fear theory at all. He also later told me that my beloved dog died as a direct result of my neglect which crushed me. I loved her so much. The look on his face when he said this was one of ‘glee’ he seemed to enjoy my anguish. I’ve seen this look on lots of occasions. I could write a book.

I’m struggling to understand this. Is there an explanation for this in terms of BPD or is there something else going on. Maybe NPD or even sociopathy?

[MapleBob]

I’m struggling to understand this. Is there an explanation for this in terms of BPD or is there something else going on. Maybe NPD or even sociopathy?

BPD is often comorbid with other personality or mood disorders, and there are points of overlap in a lot of these disorders. "Glee" in regards to your suffering doesn't feel very BPD to me. pwBPD have a difficult time with empathy, but it's typically in a more passive/irresponsible fashion.

[Caley]

Dear L,

Consider this simplified construct of push/pull.

Newton's third Law of motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

You, feeling needy and in need of connection and emotional support, reach out to your SO (pull).

He rejects your request for support (push ... and you feel abandonment).

You are now feeling hurt and subconsciously make a move away from the source of that hurt. (triggering his fear of abandonment).

He comes back with excuses ... convinces you that he is sorry (pull).

You then, believing the empty promise and chance of future support, allow him to return to start the dance again.

This dance ultimately turns toxic and abusive and one of three incredibly destructive relationship dynamics.

The dance is a three step dance ... pull, push and abandon ... pull, push, abandon. Try the waltz ... no pulling, pushing or abandoning.

He, from what you have described throughout your posts, doesn't know how to change this dance or even that there might be a better one.

You on the other hand keep setting things up to experience huge amounts of hurt in the form of abandonment. You go looking for your emotional needs to be fulfilled by someone who just doesn't have the tools to do the job. In your heart you know this but keep trying to pull it out of him anyway ... the result is abandonment, every time.

Either he abandons you or you abandon him ... no intimacy, feelings of separation and pain.

If you spend some time making yourself aware what your starting gate position is ... you can make changes. You will realise that the way to end the cycle is to disengage from any practice which leaves you feeling like the victim. You can stop being a victim of your own poor choices ... this man is a poor choice ... choose a better one ... but give yourself a little time to heal first before you step out onto the dance floor. Because, if you don't there's a very high chance you'll pick a similar dance partner in the future ... and that would suck, wouldn't it?

[FannyB]

Hi Larmoyant

I can only talk about my ex here, but so much of her energy was used up keeping herself afloat and maintaining the facade that she was ok that she had precious little spare for anyone else. If your ex was in a similar position, he would find the concept of you needing him draining - and would come up with strategies to absolve himself of that responsibility i.e. the dying dog scenario.

It sound like a crock of BS to emotionally healthy people, but borderlines aren't in that camp. He will do whatever is necessary to ensure his emotional survival whilst maintaining you as a love object to meet his own needs - hence the poor attempt at lying to cover his tracks.


Cheers



Fanny

[Rmbrworst]

Dear L,

Consider this simplified construct of push/pull.

Newton's third Law of motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

You, feeling needy and in need of connection and emotional support, reach out to your SO (pull).

He rejects your request for support (push ... and you feel abandonment).

You are now feeling hurt and subconsciously make a move away from the source of that hurt. (triggering his fear of abandonment).

He comes back with excuses ... convinces you that he is sorry (pull).

You then, believing the empty promise and chance of future support, allow him to return to start the dance again.

This dance ultimately turns toxic and abusive and one of three incredibly destructive relationship dynamics.

The dance is a three step dance ... pull, push and abandon ... pull, push, abandon. Try the waltz ... no pulling, pushing or abandoning.

He, from what you have described throughout your posts, doesn't know how to change this dance or even that there might be a better one.

You on the other hand keep setting things up to experience huge amounts of hurt in the form of abandonment. You go looking for your emotional needs to be fulfilled by someone who just doesn't have the tools to do the job. In your heart you know this but keep trying to pull it out of him anyway ... the result is abandonment, every time.

Either he abandons you or you abandon him ... no intimacy, feelings of separation and pain.

If you spend some time making yourself aware what your starting gate position is ... you can make changes. You will realise that the way to end the cycle is to disengage from any practice which leaves you feeling like the victim. You can stop being a victim of your own poor choices ... this man is a poor choice ... choose a better one ... but give yourself a little time to heal first before you step out onto the dance floor. Because, if you don't there's a very high chance you'll pick a similar dance partner in the future ... and that would suck, wouldn't it?

This post is insanely brilliant

[Larmoyant]

Maplebob quote (sorry don’t know how to work the quote thing!):



“ pwBPD have a difficult time with empathy, but it's typically in a more passive/irresponsible fashion”



FannyB quote:

“He will do whatever is necessary to ensure his emotional survival whilst maintaining you as a love object to meet his own needs - hence the poor attempt at lying to cover his tracks.”

This is of tremendous help, thank you. I’m building more knowledge and my mind is becoming more and more clear.  Your comments threw some more light on what might have been happening. It’s all about his needs really isn’t it.

I’m learning, trying to understand so I can stop myself from going back. It was emotional torture. Is my quest to know whether or not he meant to hurt me futile do you think? Does anyone else ever wonder about this?

BPD seems to have many similarities with NPD. I understand that NPD is incurable, but people with BPD can be helped. I’m confused whether my ex has one or both of these and it’s kept me stuck. If it’s BPD then I feel such sorrow for him and think maybe I could help him. If I think he can’t help his behaviour I always go back. If it’s NPD/sociopathic and he’s making a conscious choice to hurt me I can more easily disengage. Am I making any sense? Probably not. Maybe (as he tells me) I am insane. After two years of mind boggling chaos I feel it.

Caley, thanks. Your post gave me a lot to think about in terms of push/pull and gave me another way to view what happened with my little dog. There is more to the story though and it was very cruel and I’m still having difficulty seeing it as push/pull rather than outright nastiness.  Same with leaving me stranded and other things.  

I used the situation with my beloved dog and tried to fit it in with the push/pull fear theory:

You, feeling needy and in need of connection and emotional support, reach out to your SO (pull).  I phoned him to say I’m going to the vet. He offers much sympathy and support saying he’s there for me and to phone him as soon as I have any news.

He rejects your request for support (push ... and you feel abandonment). He fails to pick up the phone and makes several excuses, e.g (1) he left it in the bathroom (2) it may have been on silent. None of that makes sense to me. It seems deliberate? These actions don’t match his earlier words of sympathy and care.

I can understand this from what Fanny said in her post.

You are now feeling hurt and subconsciously make a move away from the source of that hurt. (triggering his fear of abandonment). Yes. Devastated really. My dog had just died and despite his promised support he wasn’t there.



He comes back with excuses ... convinces you that he is sorry (pull). He never apologised, just raged at me despite my distress. He couldn’t seem to see where he’d gone wrong and was angry with me for questioning him.

You then, believing the empty promise and chance of future support, allow him to return to start the dance again. I eventually did go back again because I went into denial or pushed away this incident despite the massive red flag. My codependent issues I think (still don’t know much about these, but I think the label fits)

This dance ultimately turns toxic and abusive and one of three incredibly destructive relationship dynamics. Yes. The whole relationship was toxic from start to finish. I think your correct in that he doesn’t know how to change it. He sometimes appears to want to and I have seen him try. It’s clearly a struggle for him.

You on the other hand keep setting things up to experience huge amounts of hurt in the form of abandonment. You go looking for your emotional needs to be fulfilled by someone who just doesn't have the tools to do the job. In your heart you know this but keep trying to pull it out of him anyway ... the result is abandonment, every time. This rings true.

If you spend some time making yourself aware what your starting gate position is ... you can make changes. Great advice.

You will realise that the way to end the cycle is to disengage from any practice which leaves you feeling like the victim. Defensive reaction now. I ‘have’ been a victim which makes me sad and angry with both him and myself. I have lost a lot, career, job, friendships, finances. Too much. He, on the other hand has lost nothing. However, I am starting to see the role I played in this and FOO issues that may be related. I’m trying to own some of it and I can see the benefit of not seeing myself as a victim. At the same time it’s very early in the process and I am defensive. I am frozen living in a state of fear as I’m scared to start over. Don’t really know how to start over yet. Thought my best chance would be to try to understand all of this.

You can stop being a victim of your own poor choices ... this man is a poor choice ... choose a better one ... but give yourself a little time to heal first before you step out onto the dance floor. Because, if you don't there's a very high chance you'll pick a similar dance partner in the future ... and that would suck, wouldn't it? In my present state this feels like a stab in the heart and a terrible blow to my already withered self-esteem. I’m not annoyed with you because I suspect you are right. I’m just expressing my feelings. I know he was a poor choice, but he didn’t seem that way at the beginning. Abuse is insidious it creeps up on you. This hurts. The thought of stepping out on the dance floor is terrifying to me right now and seriously who would want me anyway. I haven’t got anything left.

The last part hurt, because it's early days. I feel victimised by this man and his cruelty. However, I agree with Rmbrwort your post was brilliant and helped me a lot. Thank you so much.

[Caley]

It's OK to express your feelings L ... and you should, probably more often than you have. Nothing was said with the intention to hurt ... just another way to consider looking at things.

Incidentally, can you see what just happened between us? I expressed a view which you took personally and have expressed and shared some personal pain. Then, I came to the rescue to try to appease and help you feel better about yourself. Normally, this works fine and builds an empathic connection ... strengthens a bond. At the same time, if it happens too often the emotional strain on the rescuer becomes unbearable and they need to disengage to look after themselves ... if you then take that badly you will interpret it as abandoning behaviour and you're right back to starting gate position ... feeling victimised.

The healthy option is to disengage with caring and give the other the space to self soothe. Only, some people jump from rescuing to perpetration ... which can lead to abuse.

Bless you lady ... have a peaceful day. x

[GreenEyedMonster]

Larmoyant, this sounds so much like my ex.

For example, I confided in him that I had serious abandonment fears.  He went on vacation without me, surrounded by other flirtatious women, and promised to call me one evening.  It got to be midnight and I texted him.  He said he still "didn't have time" to talk to me.  It was like he enjoyed the idea that I was sitting there feeling abandoned.  He had absolutely no concern about me leaving him because of his nasty behavior.

I have long since concluded that my ex is suffering from (or causing suffering from) something far worse than BPD.  I think he has NPD at the very least.  (See my recent post, "Projecting diagnoses?" for more on him.)

Narcissists are sometimes disgusted by need and will react to it with cruelty or sadism.  Again, not all narcissists are alike, but it tends to be a common reaction.  A person with abandonment fears will want to fulfill all of your needs because he wants to make himself indispensible to you.  I dated someone with abandonment fears and he would run himself ragged to give me what he thought I needed.  That's more in line with BPD.  Running roughshod over your feelings . . . that's something else. 

[FannyB]

I’m learning, trying to understand so I can stop myself from going back. It was emotional torture. Is my quest to know whether or not he meant to hurt me futile do you think? Does anyone else ever wonder about this?

It's pretty futile if you expect to get that closure from him. A lot of what he will say is subject to cognitive distortion, so you're better off arriving at answers that YOU'RE happy with based on a balance of probabilities.

For what it's worth, I choose to believe mine loved me dearly up to the point that she didn't. By belatedly showing her true colours she set me free - and I'll always be grateful to her for that.

Choose your attitude - the only power pwBPD have over us is what we choose to grant them.


Fanny

[Larmoyant]

Hi Greeneyedmonster, that is exactly the kind of thing my ex would do. He definitely fits the criteria for NPD and sometimes I wonder if I’ve wandered down the BPD road so I can find a way to excuse some of the cruel things he’s done. He did the bare minimum in the way of support, but talked about it a lot. He weeded my garden (one time) and I never stopped hearing about how he does everything for me, but gets nothing in return. Despite the fact that I helped him renovate his whole house. He most definitely didn’t make himself indispensable, but running roughshod over my feelings say no more! I suppose I’m never going to know much more and I suppose it shouldn’t matter. He was cruel and sometimes to the point of sadistic and that’s probably all I need to know. Your post was helpful, thank you. I’ll go read your post now, we seem to have had similar experiences and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone!

FannyB, this makes sense. He twists most things to suit himself and has my mind spinning so fast I hardly know if I’m coming or going. I had to cling hard to my reality sometimes or I’d get lost with all the gaslighting.

I’m glad you found some closure. He is still telling me that he loved me, even two days ago, which makes it so difficult because it keeps that feeling of hope alive, when truly his actions don’t shout love, but the opposite. Perhaps that’s my answer. Thanks F.