Cost/benefit analysis--protecting the other kids

[sanemom]

Since November, BPD mom has filed two false CPS allegations against us based on incomplete information she is able to get out of her boys (both teens) and then amplified--some to almost unrecognizable stories.  It seems that she gets the boys all believing the new grossly embellished version as well.

After the last time, the counselor tried to institute a practice where the kids only talk about what happens at mom's house with mom and what happens at dad's house with dad.  BPD mom initially agreed, but then told the counselor she hated the idea.  Clearly, it didn't work--they were still reporting things to their mom.

The problem is we have other kids in the house, and I am concerned for their well-being, especially if something happens to stick.  I don't trust the CPS around here. The first CPS investigation, the investigators really seemed to buy into BPD mom's stories of our alleged drug abuse, etc., but when the hair follicle tests came out negative, they dropped most of it.  CPS received word of the judicial finding of parental alienation against BPD mom AFTER their investigation, and apparently it made it into the file because with this current investigation, they are not taking this claim as seriously.

Regardless, the teen boys are sure their dad did something, and I think we are just done.  It is too risky to have them in our house and reporting to BPD mom what is in our mail, what they think is happening, etc.  Besides that, DH has been struggling with depression/anxiety since he lost his oldest DD to alienation, and the boys seem to give him no grace to having a down day (I think he has always been their rock while mom has always fallen apart--they are mad at him for not being able to be their rock now).  He can't start getting better if he is constantly feeling like he is under their microscope.

The boys recently requested to have a break from visitation (DH wanted this as well after this last CPS thing so he was glad they requested it).  We talked with a family therapist very familiar with our case, and she suggested that we disengage to get the pressure off the boys and to let them feel the relief and process what is going on.  So I think our plan is this--DH is going to let the boys know that he loves them, he wants a relationship with them, but the current system is not working (keeping info at each parent's house); the schedule is not working for them, and it is not working for us.  He is going to tell them they can have some freedom, and if they want to come, to let him know, and he will check to see if that works.  I think that will drive BPD mom nuts not to have her spies in our house to stir up drama.  

DH and the boys have had weekly dinners so hopefully that will continue.

In our situation, I think this is the only way to keep them out of the middle.  As long as they are at our house, they will be pressured to tattle on us.  I wish the courts were willing to do something more drastic to protect kids--as long as she has unsupervised access, they will be pressured and interrogated.

[Thunderstruck]

That really stinks.  It's very frustrating when kids are in the middle like that, and they really don't understand that they are contributing to the problem.

I'm surprised that CPS did a hair follicle test, I thought those were fairly expensive so they do urine tests first?

I hope your DH is able to maintain a good relationship with the boys. I can see how disengaging will keep them out of the middle, but it also gives BPDmom more time to work her PA on them. 

[sanemom]

That really stinks.  It's very frustrating when kids are in the middle like that, and they really don't understand that they are contributing to the problem.

I'm surprised that CPS did a hair follicle test, I thought those were fairly expensive so they do urine tests first?

I hope your DH is able to maintain a good relationship with the boys. I can see how disengaging will keep them out of the middle, but it also gives BPDmom more time to work her PA on them. 

I am pretty sure CPS ordered a hair follicle test, too, (urine tests don't go back that far) but we paid for our own beforehand (because we weren't trusting them--they were totally assuming we were guilty).  We wanted to prove that we hadn't used ANYTHING in months (nothing goes back years... .).

I am, too.  I hope it can work... .I know she will do more PA on the boys; but we can't put our other kids in danger (one is in kindergarten).  That is what is scary to me.  Maybe after some absence they will long to come back.  Their living conditions now are cramped, and their mom does drive them crazy with her emotionality. 

I am more hopeful with this CPS case--I guess they have the judicial finding of PA on their file because they started off not believing the case--they didn't even record the kid interviews and told my kids they didn't believe it.  The sad thing about that is that IF the boys ever actually had a valid claim, at this point, they would not be believed anymore because they cried wolf last time.  Regardless, it is not fair to my kids to have to be humiliated and be called out of class.

[bravhart1]

I think you are right to draw the line here. If the boys were seven or eight then I get the manipulation being out of their control, but like we said before those boys are big enough, and have been with you for most of the time.

They are making choices here they alone must live with, and who knows,  this may just be their  path to learn what they need to learn. At some point you have to let them learn by experience.

There is a big difference in giving up, and knowing when to say that's enough.

I'm sorry this is so hard, it's unfair and having a mentally ill grown up in our lives can be exhausting. I'm all for any protection and boundries to minimize the fallout for our families, especially the innocent.

I've been on the receiving end of false charges and CPS investigations. It's frightening and dangerous to allow these people (the BPDs) to have this power over our lives.

I'm so done walking the line. I make it clear I expect protection from every counselor, mediator, evaluator and legal professional. We may not be able to fix her, but they can darn sure protect my family from any further abuse of power or accusation.

[sanemom]

Today BM texted DH asking if we have any mail for DSS17.

Seriously?  DSS17 can ask for his own mail. 

I told DH she is just dying for his attention... .and what better way to get it than to file CPS charges on DH.

[bravhart1]

Does your 17 year old get important letters daily? 

I would tell her to file a change of address and not bother me with texts about mail.

I'm pretty cut and dried about it, I won't let crazy in my house.

[sanemom]

Does your 17 year old get important letters daily? 

I would tell her to file a change of address and not bother me with texts about mail.

I'm pretty cut and dried about it, I won't let crazy in my house.

That's a whole other thread... .she had DSS17 apply for a bunch of colleges that he does not meet the requirements to get into; he used up 2 of his paychecks to pay the application fees.  We told him we would pay for all application fees of schools he met the requirements, and he only took us up on doing that with ONE school.  He did everything she, a non-college graduate, suggested he do, but he wouldn't listen to us (and we both work for universities AND are college grads--what would we know about this process?).

All he's been getting are letters of rejection.  Of course, he got into the ONE school we pushed him to apply to.

We never answered her text... .DH just texted DSS17 a copy of the latest rejection letter.

Oh, he did get into the one school we paid for, but he had decided he didn't want to go there (even though he was all excited about it before he moved in with BPD mom).  It is just amazing how she can completely change them.

[bravhart1]

That's just gross. She clearly doesn't want her child succeeding her so she can maintain control.

The one thing I will say is that at 17, he should be very interested in getting away from both his parents, and if mom is sucking him in closer, I'd let her. He will rebel and when she turns on him the same way she has turned on DH his eyes may be opened. And he may also see that you guys were allowing him to grow up and move on and be his own person. If he's mentally healthy at all he should want that. If he's not, then that is kind of on him at this point.

You both ( you and DH) have provided him with a stable, normal home life and living example of doing the right thing. If he CHOOSES his moms home, and interference, lies, manipulation so be it. He in all likelihood will come around, if he doesn't, I don't think you could have made any difference with him anyway, he was too enmeshed.

Has he ever had a girlfriend or interest in girls? I wonder what will happen when mom is "competing"   with another woman in his life?

[ForeverDad]

Will the counseling continue?  Will DH still get feedback or attend sessions?

Did DH do this while at the childrens' counseling session?  If he did, then counselor could try to keep the teens grounded and continually reconfirm what dad told them.  BioMom will of course as always twist it into Dad left you, Dad doesn't care about you, Dad doesn't love you, Dad must be still doing unspeakably horrible things, etc.

One huge issue that counselor should have been working on (maybe he/she was but BM was simply too overwhelming?) was that they need to trust their own observations and conclusions, they mother is documented to have twisted and even created scenarios in order to mess with their minds, trust and attachments.  (See the articles about Craig Childress that approaches this alienation as a form of attachment child abuse.)

So there's no rewriting of history DH could write a relatively simple statement to be kept on file with counselor (so counselor can review it with the boys when they "forget" and need recentering but of course not dispense it to them) WHY this decision was reached... .though he loves all his children, he did not leave them but instead was essentially driven away for self-protection... .there were multiple allegations of terrible things that were eventually determined to be unsubstantiated or unfounded ("lies" meant to harm)... .in order to protect their father, his wife and his other children from the damage caused by his Ex and unfortunately, his older children.  (No admissions of anything that Ex could use to sabotage him, of course.)

I don't know if he would like to to it that way.  I just figure their mother will rewrite their memories (again) over time if someone like the counselor can't reset them.

Henceforth, there should be firm boundaries with them.  No money for them to make bad choices.  (Such as them wasting energy and money on colleges or universities that would reject them.)  No rescues without firm boundaries, guidelines and requirements.  Their mother is a user, controller and slick manipulator, he shouldn't enable it in them.

Oh, didn't court say it would revisit this issue after a few months to determine is she had mended her ways?  Has DH returned to court yet?  Would this be basis for them to have mother supervised or only have brief visits with her?  She's turned them into her tools, "leaves blown about every which way by the wind".

[ForeverDad]

What I meant by my prior post is that even if CPS won't do anything to stop mother's manipulative suspicions of their father, eventually dropping allegations after much damage and expense, the court indicated it would take more actions if things didn't improve.  They got worse so... .what will the court do?

[Turkish]

That's just gross. She clearly doesn't want her child succeeding her so she can maintain control.

The one thing I will say is that at 17, he should be very interested in getting away from both his parents, and if mom is sucking him in closer, I'd let her.

Even if you didn't have your own children to protect, sanemom, I'd lean towards this. Given that you do, strong boundaries seem required at this point to save you primary family unit.

I personally can't comprehend being that enmeshed with a parent at that age (like I can't comprehend my Ex's brothers living in their parents' home into their 20s and 30s). I was the opposite, and luckily my mother was so low-functioning that it made it easier to detach and leave. Then again, maybe I can't appreciate that because it went the other way. Poor kid. At that age, however, he is on the verge of being responsible for himself in the real world.

[Nope]

I agree with others that there comes a point where you've done all you can. I also know how easy that is for us to say but your DH must be in tremendous emotional pain from watching this happen again.

Unfortunately, they aren't little kids who will say, do, or believe anything just to survive. They are very nearly adults and they are capable of critical thinking skills that should show them the situation for what it really is. Especially after what already happened with their sister. Yea, DH could go back to court and maybe the judge would pull the kids from BPDm like he said he would. But then what do you have? Two angry near-adults making life at home miserable for everyone.

Eventually they will grow up and figure it out. Right now clearly they have something they need to work through with her. And you know what? I think it's better they work through it with her directly rather than marrying women just like her so they can work through it that way later.

[sanemom]

I just broke down today.  I am soo soo tired of it all.  I just want time to be with my family and not have to defend or justify my existence.

I got a brief call from the counselor accusing me of passive aggressive facebook posting.  I had no idea what she was talking about... .then she pointed out a post that BPD mom told her about, and she said I hurt the boys' feelings.  I had said something about prayers being answered and really looking forward to the weekend, and I posted the day after the session where DH and the boys decided to take a break.

The post had EVERYTHING to do with a business opportunity that I had a meeting about and absolutely NOTHING to do with the boys, but, of course, the boys thought it was all about them (and I am sure their mom milked that perception). 

Then BPD mom even managed to get the counselor on board thinking that.  The other posts were just random articles and stuff... .I am a professor... .I teach college students... .many of the lessons I teach I post about.  Apparently the boys sometimes (or often) think I am posting about them.  Today I posted about this generation feeling entitled.  Guess what?  It was a class discussion today.  I feel like everything I say or do has to be justified, and that is not a way to live.  I feel like an emotional hostage--anything I say or do WILL be used against me.

Until the boys stop talking about our house/our relationships with their mom, we will not be safe.  I wish the counselor would stop letting the boys play victim so they don't have to take responsibility for their part in this disaster.

I think when I explained the real reason behind the post, the counselor started to backtrack, but the damage is done--in my mind, she, too, will get sucked in by the BPD vortex.

And maybe the judge will do something, but I am too tired to care.

[Turkish]

That would  really (insert language that would get filtered by the software) me off!

You deserve to have your social media safe from dysfunction. Block all of them.

On second thought, this would feed their delusions. Are you FB friends with the kids? If not, you can choose which posts to make public, for friends and friends of friends, or just friends...

[bravhart1]

Ugh

[Thunderstruck]

Wow, you're allowed to be fb friends with the boys? I'm not, I was blocked. 

Yeah, you can make a special fb setting for them or make them restricted. That way they only see certain posts and not everything. I wouldn't unfriend or block them, that would just be fuel for the PA fire. Not that BPDmom needs more. 

[sanemom]

Wow, you're allowed to be fb friends with the boys? I'm not, I was blocked. 

Yeah, you can make a special fb setting for them or make them restricted. That way they only see certain posts and not everything. I wouldn't unfriend or block them, that would just be fuel for the PA fire. Not that BPDmom needs more. 

Yeah... .just got a tutorial on restricting certain people from posts yesterday.  I do think if I unfriended them, it would cause bigger issues.

I think she lets them be my friend just so she can spy on me.  I don't say anything that exciting on FB though, but looking back, she does seem to get upset after DH posts something nice to me (as he did for my birthday).  The day after my birthday where he said "Spending every day with you is the best gift in the world", she called CPS on him for an incident that supposedly happened a week prior.  She did something crazy right after our anniversary, too, where he posted sweet things.  I am just now putting that together... .

[ForeverDad]

A slight diversion... .I had a relative whose nearby SIL somehow had equipment to hack their phones, landlines and cells.  Word got out about anything juicy mentioned on calls.  So sometimes she would stage scenarios.  One time we talked about a relative who had died and we said paperwork for her inheritance was coming in the mail.  She didn't have to go fetch her mail for a week!

While I'm not telling you to stage anything, you could judiciously words things 'innocently' that would trigger her, that is, if/when it would be a good time for her to get triggered.   Sounds like if you set an innocent trap, she would jump in... .while being careful when playing with fire.  But if she's going to find or make trouble anyway, may as well have a way to divert it, boomerang it or handle it proactively.

[bravhart1]

The whole thing with the counselor jumping to conclusions with BPDms help is pretty disgusting. Do they both have BPD?

I would be pretty tempted to put how great things are and how happy we all are on FB everyday forward. But I'm not always politically correct about stuff.

We don't have a FB or any other social media in our house, because of BPDm and her online antics, she's a nightmare in that regard. So I guess it makes sense that other BPD folks are using it in the way she would, to spy and twist facts, etc. I don't need the drama, so I come here.

Im still reeling over a professional being convinced to call you out from something the "other side" said. Did she read it herself? Did they pull it up in the therapists office and pour over your posts looking for ways to twist your words into something about the boys? Or did therapist just take BPDms word for it? Which is worse? I'd have a choice email sent out to that woman this week, documenting her unprofessional actions, no wonder she was not effective with the boys.

[Nope]

I'm trying to imagine a situation where one of the kid's counselors would call me up to call me out on something BPDm or the kids said I did. Has she called BPDm and put her feet to the fire about the ongoing alienation? I think my kid's TS would tell the kids that they needed to ask me directly themselves what something I wrote meant. Both my kid's TS focus on giving the kids the tools to handle their own feelings and situations with their parents. This T sounds hopelessly triangulated.

[sanemom]

I'm trying to imagine a situation where one of the kid's counselors would call me up to call me out on something BPDm or the kids said I did. Has she called BPDm and put her feet to the fire about the ongoing alienation? I think my kid's TS would tell the kids that they needed to ask me directly themselves what something I wrote meant. Both my kid's TS focus on giving the kids the tools to handle their own feelings and situations with their parents. This T sounds hopelessly triangulated.

I think what is happening is that the therapist DID testify in court about BPD mom's bad behavior, and she has generally taken our side.  BPD mom keeps complaining to the therapist that SHE doesn't feel supported so the therapist is probably trying to agree with her on something to reel BPD mom back in... .but THIS is not the way to do it.  And she is not savvy to personality disorders.  She told the other family therapist on the case that she didn't really believe us about the alienation for years until she saw BPD mom in her office because the kids STILL will say that mom never talks bad about dad, and she believes the kids.  BUT then she finally saw BPD mom doing it in her office and testified to it.  The kids will still get defensive and swear up and down that their mom is encouraging them to have a relationship with their dad and never says anything bad about him... .probably because they know the judge has now accused their mom of this.

The facebook posts BPD mom was upset about showed that we were ok on the weekend she had the kids refuse to see us... .in fact, we were just fine.  We had a great weekend.  It feels like it is all about trying to hurt us, and the fact that she didn't just plain ticks her off.

DH just went to DSS17's work yesterday and told him that he wants to "take a break" next weekend, too, but he would like to meet them somewhere for dinner.  He told him he loved him.  :)SS17 was fine with the recommendation (DSS17 wants nothing to do with this drama and would have kept the schedule--it is DSS15 who was all "I am so done with your house" to DH).  At dinner, DH will tell them more about this break.  The therapist who worked with us with DSD and is very well versed in PD suggested he say in a very non-judgmental tone that the situation is not working so he is letting them have some freedom like they want, and if they want to come over, they can ask, and he will see if it works.  I just hope they won't ask immediately because we don't have that response figured out yet... .the answer would be NO; just not sure how to frame it. 

I could be wrong, but when BPD mom gets wind that DH wants a break next weekend, too, I think she is going to get upset just because she is no longer in control of keeping the kids from him.  It would have been fine if it had been HER idea... ..

[Nope]

In my case: Maybe it's just the slightly bitter person in me talking, but the thing that really gets me irritated is how much fun BPDm is clearly having without the kids. She didn't take good care of them and was destroying SS11 so we had to change it so that we have the kids 98% of the time. She lost her kids and now on the frequent weekends when she doesn't have their half sister and her BF doesn't have his son they are just living it up. Movies, concerts, etc. Meanwhile DH and I can barely get a break and we don't see each other more than an hour during the week because our work schedules are set up to accommodate the kids.

What I'm getting at in your case is that sometimes the best "revenge" is living well.

[ForeverDad]

While she may think, "Bummer, I can't yank their chains any more" I believe that will be overshadowed with "He, he, I got the boys, no one can stop me no matter what I do, not even court, just like I did with their sister!"

What's especially distressing is that you two raised the boys while BM focused on the older girl, then when she aged out of the system, she shifted gears and subverted the boys, at least to some extent.  I'm sure you and DH were devastated that your confidence in the grounding you gave them in their early years didn't stand up to the emotional impact and slick designs of their mother.

If you still have court coming up, express this as interim coping with a difficult situation until court can get a handle on it.  IMO she is likely to waltz in claiming, "I have the kids now, I'm happy, so why are we here?"

[sanemom]

Now that DH has made it clear to the boys that he just wants dinner instead of an entire 4 day weekend, they went to counseling and are suddenly not mad at him.  It is like BPD mom gets them all up in arms before CPS comes to talk with them, DSS15 says, "I am so done with your house!" to DH; a few days later DH says he himself wants just dinner instead of a four day weekend, and they decide they are no longer mad... .at all.  I wonder if they are going to ask to come back.  I know BPD mom has to be driving them nuts with her emotionality, and I know she has to want the boys to come spy on us.  Surprisingly, when DH let her know that the boys would not be coming this weekend (per their choice he said in the email), she did not respond at all.

He wants to say, "Sure, if you will stop spying on me and reporting stuff to your mom", but obviously, that won't work.  The counselor said that their mom is never going to give up trying to find out what is going on at our house, and I do not know how to enforce that.

[ForeverDad]

DH has set his Boundary... .You boys are being pressured, manipulated, outmaneuvered, whatever by your mother to suspect and/or divulge anything and everything in my home... .  I will not allow her - or you since it has already come to that - to disturb my home's safety, peace and calm.  Over the years your mother's actions have made me spend tens of thousands of dollars for court, lawyers, evaluators, counselors, etc.  Imagine the vacations, family projects we could have had if not for that.  I will no longer tolerate the huge drain on our finances which would have been better utilized elsewhere for positive things.  My house will be and must remain a safe place for all - me, my wife and our younger children.  Until you two can be Trusted not to be puppets, spies, informers or enablers for your mother, your visits here must be limited, for our self-protection.  What has it come to that we have to protect ourselves in this way, from members of our own family?

Be careful how much help is given them for vehicles and other such things.  Such help shouldn't be Gifts, it should be Earned.

I don't know if there will be a way to determine when or if they can ever be trusted not to Enable their mother for more obstruction, damage and chaos.

Maybe, just maybe, this will be the impetus (bluntly, shock) that will get through to them how their actions, however manipulated, impact their loved ones.  If they try to redeem themselves, ponder what it would take to trust them again, or at least distrust them less.

[sanemom]

We got an update from the counselor--she said that the PA is worse than ever, and the boys cannot handle how much time they are ordered to spend with their dad.  They think that the current schedule (40-60) would work fine if their parents got along.  :)H has had NO contact whatsoever with BPD mom so clearly things are happening on that end to make them think that.  

In the ruling 5 months ago, the judge said that if in 6 months they don't have a great relationship with their dad, he would change custody back.  The problem is BPD mom has refused to sign the first order from 5 months ago so not sure if we can do a motion to modify a non-entered order.  Also, I am not sure if the judge will actually do that.

It sounds like BPD mom is trying to get the boys convinced that they still like their dad just fine; just don't want to spend much time with him.  

I guess we may be digging for more money somewhere... .this is ridiculous, but no matter what, we need to go back to court.

[Thunderstruck]

BPDmom is just not going to give up, is she? 

What would the custody be changed back to?

[ForeverDad]

Why would she need to sign the order?  Do you mean sign for receipt of the order?

I recall in rare cases a judge will actually sign for the refusing party so as not to allow a roadblock to the case.

Sadly, going back to the old order where she only had alternate weekends and maybe something in between still won't stop her distorting facts, manipulating and alienating.

[sanemom]

In the old order, she only had two weekends a month.   Our attorney drafted up what the judge said in November, but she is not signing it.  We have to do a motion to enter to get it signed.

At this point, we would be requesting supervised visits.  We have clear documentation that she gets the kids to spy on us, and the counselor has confronted them about it.  DSS15 even took a picture of a pamphlet I got in the mail on alienation and got BPD mom all riled up about it.  He thinks it is funny.

[david]

Sounds like the kids are doing to their mom what she is teaching them by her actions. Getting the kids out of there is probably the only way to get their heads on straight.

My ex would do things that were harmful for our boys if she thought it would upset me. When I realized that, I minimized my communication with her even more. I also learned to not react in front of her or our boys. If our boys went back to her and reported then that would be just as good for her. That was several years ago. Things have gotten much better because ex no longer has any "control" over me. Every time she sensed she was losing more control she would up the ante in her behavior. She then started lashing out towards them. That turned against her because our boys saw the difference between us and, fortunately, picked the rational and safer side.