Avoiding the Bait

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have mainly been on the leaving board because I am done. I have no interest in having a romantic relationship with my stbx. At this time, we still live together and are trying to co-parent our 4 kids. I try to steer clear of him and avoid him as much as possible. That is difficult to do as he is currently unemployed and we live in a small house.

I have asked him for space. I have not shared a room with him on a regular basis for 4 or 5 years. This time, I moved out of the bedroom that was once ours. I sleep on the couch and have moved all of my clothes to other areas of the house. He has his room. He has his computer area yet he seems to delight in sitting in the chair next to the couch and telling me good morning as soon as he sees I am awake. There are evenings when I get home from work and he is sitting in his chair. I like to get home, change clothes, and get something to eat. A lot of times, when I get back to the kitchen, he is in there. If I go in there, he will likely say something or do his passive aggressive crap. So, I sit down and wait until he leaves the kitchen so I can get something to eat. I know I am being hypersensitive but it feels like he is trying to mirror me or follow me around like a friggin' puppy dog. It feels like he is deliberately trying to get in my space as a way to bait me into engaging him in some way. I like to go sit on my porch to get space. I will talk on the phone and do whatever I can to send him a loud and clear message that I don't want to talk to him. It is frustrating. I have told him that I am done. We are both seeing other people. I have no reason to talk to him about anything other than business type stuff.

He persists in talking about his sobriety. He says that he has been sober for 9 months. He is a sex addict and defines sobriety as not looking at porn and not taking care of himself. He doesn't see a problem with posting ads on OK Cupid or having multiple women that he is talking to and showing interest in at various levels. I am so done with all of that. I don't want to hear about any of it. I have asked him to talk to his sponsor about that stuff or talk to his girlfriends about that stuff as it is no longer relevant to me.

He persists in trying to tell me about his "dates". He hasn't had many but it irritates the snot out of me that before his last date he asked ME how much cash he should take on his date. Um, not cool.

The reason for posting this thread is that I feel like I had been doing pretty well at not taking the bait. I would avoid conversations or shut them down by saying things like, "You need to talk to somebody else about this stuff." At one point, he was talking about one of his "girlfriends" and I told him I didn't want to hear about it. He says, "I thought we were supposed to be friends." Um, I am not just any friend. I am the person that he married 17 years ago. I spent 15 of those years chasing him and trying to figure out how to be a good enough wife for him. I spent 15 of those years not noticing that other guys existed. My eyes were set on him for 15 of those years. How he thinks it is okay to give me so much detail about his friends is beyond me. I shut those conversations down.

This past weekend. I was snippy and made a snide remark or two. He called me a b***h. I didn't respond as we were in the car with the kids. Later that evening after all of the kids were in bed, he apologized for getting upset. He didn't apologize for calling me a name though. Instead, he tried to turn it around on me. I was mad and not in a good place so I took the bait. He said some things that really hurt. I shouldn't be surprised as he tends to do that. I know that this is who he is and what he does. It shouldn't be a surprise. I am more upset with myself for taking the bait and going down that rabbit hole. I know that the best course of action is to avoid any and all conversations with him. I have no desire to discuss our relationship as it is over. I would like to figure out how to do a better job of avoiding the bait and going down those rabbit holes.

In analyzing the event, I was tired and not in good form. We had spent the day out with the kids. He wants us to do things as a family. I have suggested that he take the kids out without me. His excuse is that they won't go without me. On this outing, he drove part of the time and then the kids asked me to drive for the other part of the time. They do not like his driving at all. There are so many little things that drive me nuts and I find that I am having more and more difficulties ignoring things and not taking the bait. I feel that I am getting crabby and defensive because he wants to act like everything is normal and be in my space and want to sit on the porch with me. He can't have his cake and eat it too. I am not okay with an open marriage. If we are both seeing other people, the marriage is over and dead and done. Period. There is no going back. He has asked me to give him another year for several years now. All I am trying to do is maintain my sanity and keep things peaceful until he can get a job and move out.

Not sure what I am wanting other than some support or ideas on how to do a better job of avoiding any of the bait. There have been times when I have flat out told him, "I am not going to answer that question." In a recent conversation, he said, "you think I am baiting you don't you." To which I responded, "yep, I sure do." He persisted and tried to tell me that all I had to do was answer yes or no to the question. I refused. He twisted it around so I said, "Look, if you are stating it as a fact, why do you need me to validate it?" It wasn't exactly pretty but at least it got him to back off.

[vortex of confusion]

I have mainly been on the leaving board because I am done. I have no interest in having a romantic relationship with my stbx. At this time, we still live together and are trying to co-parent our 4 kids. I try to steer clear of him and avoid him as much as possible. That is difficult to do as he is currently unemployed and we live in a small house.

I have asked him for space. I have not shared a room with him on a regular basis for 4 or 5 years. This time, I moved out of the bedroom that was once ours. I sleep on the couch and have moved all of my clothes to other areas of the house. He has his room. He has his computer area yet he seems to delight in sitting in the chair next to the couch and telling me good morning as soon as he sees I am awake. There are evenings when I get home from work and he is sitting in his chair. I like to get home, change clothes, and get something to eat. A lot of times, when I get back to the kitchen, he is in there. If I go in there, he will likely say something or do his passive aggressive crap. So, I sit down and wait until he leaves the kitchen so I can get something to eat. I know I am being hypersensitive but it feels like he is trying to mirror me or follow me around like a friggin' puppy dog. It feels like he is deliberately trying to get in my space as a way to bait me into engaging him in some way. I like to go sit on my porch to get space. I will talk on the phone and do whatever I can to send him a loud and clear message that I don't want to talk to him. It is frustrating. I have told him that I am done. We are both seeing other people. I have no reason to talk to him about anything other than business type stuff.

He persists in talking about his sobriety. He says that he has been sober for 9 months. He is a sex addict and defines sobriety as not looking at porn and not taking care of himself. He doesn't see a problem with posting ads on OK Cupid or having multiple women that he is talking to and showing interest in at various levels. I am so done with all of that. I don't want to hear about any of it. I have asked him to talk to his sponsor about that stuff or talk to his girlfriends about that stuff as it is no longer relevant to me.

He persists in trying to tell me about his "dates". He hasn't had many but it irritates the snot out of me that before his last date he asked ME how much cash he should take on his date. Um, not cool.

The reason for posting this thread is that I feel like I had been doing pretty well at not taking the bait. I would avoid conversations or shut them down by saying things like, "You need to talk to somebody else about this stuff." At one point, he was talking about one of his "girlfriends" and I told him I didn't want to hear about it. He says, "I thought we were supposed to be friends." Um, I am not just any friend. I am the person that he married 17 years ago. I spent 15 of those years chasing him and trying to figure out how to be a good enough wife for him. I spent 15 of those years not noticing that other guys existed. My eyes were set on him for 15 of those years. How he thinks it is okay to give me so much detail about his friends is beyond me. I shut those conversations down.

This past weekend. I was snippy and made a snide remark or two. He called me a b***h. I didn't respond as we were in the car with the kids. Later that evening after all of the kids were in bed, he apologized for getting upset. He didn't apologize for calling me a name though. Instead, he tried to turn it around on me. I was mad and not in a good place so I took the bait. He said some things that really hurt. I shouldn't be surprised as he tends to do that. I know that this is who he is and what he does. It shouldn't be a surprise. I am more upset with myself for taking the bait and going down that rabbit hole. I know that the best course of action is to avoid any and all conversations with him. I have no desire to discuss our relationship as it is over. I would like to figure out how to do a better job of avoiding the bait and going down those rabbit holes.

In analyzing the event, I was tired and not in good form. We had spent the day out with the kids. He wants us to do things as a family. I have suggested that he take the kids out without me. His excuse is that they won't go without me. On this outing, he drove part of the time and then the kids asked me to drive for the other part of the time. They do not like his driving at all. There are so many little things that drive me nuts and I find that I am having more and more difficulties ignoring things and not taking the bait. I feel that I am getting crabby and defensive because he wants to act like everything is normal and be in my space and want to sit on the porch with me. He can't have his cake and eat it too. I am not okay with an open marriage. If we are both seeing other people, the marriage is over and dead and done. Period. There is no going back. He has asked me to give him another year for several years now. All I am trying to do is maintain my sanity and keep things peaceful until he can get a job and move out.

Not sure what I am wanting other than some support or ideas on how to do a better job of avoiding any of the bait. There have been times when I have flat out told him, "I am not going to answer that question." In a recent conversation, he said, "you think I am baiting you don't you." To which I responded, "yep, I sure do." He persisted and tried to tell me that all I had to do was answer yes or no to the question. I refused. He twisted it around so I said, "Look, if you are stating it as a fact, why do you need me to validate it?" It wasn't exactly pretty but at least it got him to back off.

[Cat Familiar]

Vortex, that just sounds so painful.     For a while, I lived in the same vicinity with my ex-husband. We had a trailer on the property and had built a little garden teahouse, but at that point, I hadn't yet built my house.

It was unbelievably weird scheduling when he could have the trailer or teahouse for his various "dates" and I'd avoid that area. We still shared some household expenses and sometimes ate meals together.

Our lives weren't as intertwined as yours because we had no children, just pets. It sounds incredibly creepy that he's watching you wake up and following you around. I understand that financial circumstances dictate this boundaryless lifestyle, but I sure hope for your sake that things soon change.

Ultimately, it was him finding a regular girlfriend that finally severed our mutual coexistence. I proceeded with the divorce and it was a done deal, thankfully. But in the meantime, yuck. I'm so sorry you're having to share a space with him. I know the feeling that when you're done, you're done!

[vortex of confusion]

Ultimately, it was him finding a regular girlfriend that finally severed our mutual coexistence. I proceeded with the divorce and it was a done deal, thankfully. But in the meantime, yuck. I'm so sorry you're having to share a space with him. I know the feeling that when you're done, you're done!

Thank you for the support! It is very painful.

I don't think it will be very easy for him to find a regular girlfriend. He will talk to women up a storm and things will be great. Then, they meet him and disappear or want to be just friends. Or, they will blow him off. One woman has scheduled several different dates with him but has backed out on him every time. The last time, she had a head ache or something. I try really hard not to laugh or get any satisfaction out of the fact that he can't seem to find anybody that will see him or talk to him with any kind of regularity.

I have a regular boyfriend and it seems like he is jealous of the fact that I have a boyfriend. It seems more like a case of him wanting what I have. He isn't interested in me as a person. It isn't the typical jealousy of him not wanting to see me with somebody else. It is the jealousy of me having somebody that gives me so much time and attention. He has even made comments like, "I don't have somebody like you do." Um, whatever. At one point, he was talking to three different women as potential prospects. I don't like him asking me anything about my boyfriend because of his history with the whole cuckold ickiness. I am afraid to say anything about my boyfriend for fear that it will excite him.

He doesn't seem to comprehend that relationships take a little bit of work and require a certain level of vulnerability. When he was trying to tell me a bunch of stuff one time, I asked him, "Have you told your friend about this stuff?" No, he hadn't. He didn't think it was relevant to tell a potential girlfriend that he is a sex addict.

When I was having a bad moment the other night, I was crying and ranting and raving a little bit (bad idea). I said something along the lines of "who around here cares about me or what I do?" His response was, "boyfriend's name". It made me mad and it hurt but at least it snapped me back to a place where I could just shut down and tune him out.

Cat Familiar, how long did you have to put up with that before he finally left? Do you have any sage words of advice that might help me navigate this?

[Cat Familiar]

This is embarrassing, but somehow I thought we could all live on this parcel and get along splendidly. I tried to make friends with his new girlfriend, but of course she thought the whole thing was really weird, and rightfully so. He apparently painted me black to her (I found that out from another source) and she hated me, even though I saved her life after she got attacked by the neighbor's rodeo bull. (EMT training came in handy.)

Anyway, from the time I broke up with him on my birthday until the time he left for good was about two years. I didn't want to kick him out because he had no way of supporting himself. We had shared a business and then he quit that and afterwards he injured his back to the point where he had to get emergency surgery or face paralysis from the waist down.

So, little Miss Sunshine (me) somehow had this goofy hippy dippy idea that we could collectively work the land and build separate residences. It wasn't until really ugly things started happening after I initiated divorce proceedings that I realized how idiotic this idea was.

Ultimately, in retrospect, I think he and the new girlfriend got involved with meth. It wasn't until years later that I came to that conclusion, but that would explain a lot, particularly the completely illogical thinking and weird behavior that ensued.

So, the only suggestion I have is to force the issue by moving forward with a divorce. Something is bound to change then.

[Suzn]

This past weekend. I was snippy and made a snide remark or two. He called me a b***h. I didn't respond as we were in the car with the kids. he apologized for getting upset.

A snide remark or two will likely get a reaction. Him calling you names got a reaction too. The kids are watching this. This is a difficult situation and someone has to take the lead and it's not going to be him.

On this outing, he drove part of the time and then the kids asked me to drive for the other part of the time. They do not like his driving at all.

The kids asking you to drive and you complying puts them in a parental role. They are taking charge. If they are fearful how can you help calm them? Would refusing to comply help him gain some confidence and/or calm in his driving? What's going to happen when he moves out and it's his visitation time? Will you need to drive them everywhere he wants to take them?

Not sure what I am wanting other than some support or ideas on how to do a better job of avoiding any of the bait. There have been times when I have flat out told him, "I am not going to answer that question." In a recent conversation, he said, "you think I am baiting you don't you." To which I responded, "yep, I sure do." He persisted and tried to tell me that all I had to do was answer yes or no to the question. I refused. He twisted it around so I said, "Look, if you are stating it as a fact, why do you need me to validate it?" It wasn't exactly pretty but at least it got him to back off.

This back and forth is reinforcing his behavior. If you have repeatedly told him you don't want to discuss something and he continues leave the room. Walk away from a conversation you don't want to engage in with no response. None.

When I was having a bad moment the other night, I was crying and ranting and raving a little bit (bad idea). I said something along the lines of "who around here cares about me or what I do?"

I remember you saying something similar to this once before if I'm not mistaken. Your kids were there back then and answered. Where they there this time? Vortex, these types of statements put children in savior mode and can drive a wide wedge between them and the person causing your pain. Can you plan to take a time out before things escalate to the point that one of you loses control?

All I am trying to do is maintain my sanity and keep things peaceful until he can get a job and move out. 

Is it time to put a time limit on how long you will wait? Would "in 90 days you will need to move" or picking an actual date be a good plan? As of right now everything is kind of up in the air and that's not helping anyone. It doesn't sound like he plans to pick a date as he's telling you give him another year. It's his responsibility to find a job and a place to live. Not having a date in mind may be prolonging this. He is likely anxious and stressed that he'll have to do these things to take care of himself.

I don't think it will be very easy for him to find a regular girlfriend. He will talk to women up a storm and things will be great. Then, they meet him and disappear or want to be just friends. Or, they will blow him off. I try really hard not to laugh or get any satisfaction out of the fact that he can't seem to find anybody that will see him or talk to him with any kind of regularity.

He's BPD and a sex addict. Hasn't he always struggled with interpersonal relationships?

I have told him that I am done. We are both seeing other people. I have no reason to talk to him about anything other than business type stuff.

What is your next step?

[vortex of confusion]

The kids asking you to drive and you complying puts them in a parental role. They are taking charge. If they are fearful how can you help calm them? Would refusing to comply help him gain some confidence and/or calm in his driving? What's going to happen when he moves out and it's his visitation time? Will you need to drive them everywhere he wants to take them?

Hmmm, interesting questions. I usually ask him to drive and the kids are usually okay with it. They were okay with him driving until his flip was switched by me making a snide remark. I can see how the situation was my fault.

This back and forth is reinforcing his behavior. If you have repeatedly told him you don't want to discuss something and he continues leave the room. Walk away from a conversation you don't want to engage in with no response. None.

How should I handle it when he continues to repeat himself until he gets a response? The other day I was getting ready for work and he continued to say bye or something like that to me. I didn't respond. He said it three or four times and then said something along the lines of did you hear me. I said, "Yes, I heard you the first three times." (I should have stopped there but said, "What am I supposed to say?" At that point he said, "I expected you to say thank you." I can see where I should have continued to ignore him and simply left.

I remember you saying something similar to this once before if I'm not mistaken. Your kids were there back then and answered. Where they there this time? Vortex, these types of statements put children in savior mode and can drive a wide wedge between them and the person causing your pain. Can you plan to take a time out before things escalate to the point that one of you loses control?

The kids were not around. They were asleep. When he called me the name in the car, I didn't say really say anything. I went quiet. I am trying to figure out how not to drive a wedge between him and the kids. I seem to be failing miserably because the kids have no respect for him at all. I know that he can be grumpy and dismissive with the kids and that really bothers them.

I am planning on going away for the weekend. I went away for a weekend last month too. The kids said they had fun with dad the last time I was gone. He played games with them and they did fun stuff while I was gone. It seems like they do best together when I am gone for longer than just going to work or visiting family. I have been trying to spend more time away from the house so that he and the kids can learn how to get along and navigate things without anybody running to me. The pattern that I am trying to break is him and the kids both running to me rather than working it out between themselves. If they can't run to me because I am not here, then they have to figure it out on their own.

Is it time to put a time limit on how long you will wait? Would "in 90 days you will need to move" or picking an actual date be a good plan? As of right now everything is kind of up in the air and that's not helping anyone. It doesn't sound like he plans to pick a date as he's telling you give him another year. It's his responsibility to find a job and a place to live. Not having a date in mind may be prolonging this. He is likely anxious and stressed that he'll have to do these things to take care of himself.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I am trying to think of a realistic time frame. He and I are in the same profession so I know that it can sometimes take time to get a job in that field.

He's BPD and a sex addict. Hasn't he always struggled with interpersonal relationships?

Yes, he has.

What is your next step?

That is a good question. I am not sure at this point. I think the next step needs to be thinking about a time table. I also need to focus on getting him and the kids to spend more time together so he has more of a chance to be a dad. I think our oldest daughter is trying to do some triangulation between us.

I know that after I came home from my last weekend off, I felt a lot better and was better able to deal with things.

Thanks for challenging me!

[Notwendy]

Vortex, one thing that stood out for me in your "take the bait" thread was that you were tired. Being tired can make us more vulnerable to taking the bait. I know that this is stressful. I hope you aren't too hard on yourself for taking the bait- you are human. We all are, and we all take the bait sometimes. So be good to yourself

[formflier]

 

Where are you guys in the divorce process?   

My gut says that you should match that process up with him or you moving out. 

If living in a separate place matters to you then I would take charge of that and focus on what you can do, vice asking/telling him to go.  I've said it many times (as have others) leaving plans up to a disordered person is not a good plan.

Is there a room where you can go sleep and close the door?  There was a time, several years ago where my wife did the sleeping on the couch thing.  I get up early, she sleeps in and seemed to expect me and others to respect her sleeping/privacy in common areas of the house when there were other bedrooms she could go to. 

I suspect I am probably 6 months or so behind you in decision making.  We had a long good spell, made a move that she wanted to make (I agreed to move since we were doing better) and after being in the new house for about a week she turned abusive and brought her FOO in to help her get rid of me.  Now she says she wants to go back to MC, so, we'll see.  So, I know the feeling of "being done".  I'm done with the dysfunction.  If we can get a lot of that out of the r/s, then perhaps I can hang in there or even thrive.

Last thought:  You seem to know a lot about his dating life.  I get it he is pushing this on you and you don't want to know it.  This would be painful for me, it seems painful for you.  I would focus efforts here first.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, one thing that stood out for me in your "take the bait" thread was that you were tired. Being tired can make us more vulnerable to taking the bait. I know that this is stressful. I hope you aren't too hard on yourself for taking the bait- you are human. We all are, and we all take the bait sometimes. So be good to yourself

Thank you for the kind words. I am very tired. I know what I need to do but am having a difficult time doing it. I know it is going to take a lot of internal strength and I am having a difficult time finding that strength.

[Cat Familiar]

Vortex,

I was married to my first husband about as long as you've been married and I know how hard it is to break those bonds/chains. Once you do, you'll be amazed at how much energy is freed up.

Here's the thing. It looks daunting when you first start down that road. It seems like there's so much to do, and there is, but it doesn't happen all at once. You just have to take small steps, one day at a time, and ultimately you'll get to your destination.

My intention was not to blow up my "relationship" with my ex, as I believed there was an underlying friendship that could be maintained. For whatever reason that didn't work out (his drug use? or the urging of his girlfriend? or his greed in what he called "getting everything he could" out of me financially?), I just kept moving forward with my goal in mind, tackling problems as they came up. And ultimately the divorce proceeded rather quickly once I began it.

He tried to fight every step of the way. I had received a small inheritance to purchase the property years before and he lied and claimed that it was his money. So I had to document the money trail. Same thing for the truck I was driving then--he claimed the money came from our business, rather than from an account my father had given me. I was truly shocked that he would lie, but it just made me do a lot of research and obtain records which supported my position.

So, I would suggest that you get your ducks in a row and have documents you need ahead of time, just in case it starts to go sideways once you proceed with the divorce.

It's a lot of work, but you already know what that's like, living with him all these years. Once you free yourself from this relationship, you'll wonder why you hadn't done that years ago.  

[vortex of confusion]

Where are you guys in the divorce process?  

We have not started any legal proceedings. There is a lack of funds. I don't really see a big rush on pushing legal stuff.

My gut says that you should match that process up with him or you moving out.

What is the reason for matching these things up?

Is there a room where you can go sleep and close the door?  There was a time, several years ago where my wife did the sleeping on the couch thing.  I get up early, she sleeps in and seemed to expect me and others to respect her sleeping/privacy in common areas of the house when there were other bedrooms she could go to.

No, there isn't another room. We have 4 kids and three bedrooms. My choices are on the couch or in a kids' room. I know what is involved in sleeping in common areas. It means no privacy and no peace. I get that. Sleeping on the couch still gives me more privacy and more peace than sharing a room with him did.

There is a difference between waking up to a kid saying hi and waking up to him sitting in the chair next to the couch and saying "Hi" as soon as he sees me sit up. It feels like he invades every friggin' space that I try to create for myself. Him and the kids all have desk top computers. I don't ask for privacy or quiet or special treatment of any kind. All I am wanting is for him to stay out of my space.

I set up a little desk next to the couch so I could keep some of my work papers and lap top available for me to use. At some point, he took over my desk and put all of his books in it and used it for his personal space even though all of the bedroom is his. He has a desk with a desk top. Now, he has a lap top too. I had to step in and tell him that I wanted my desk back. (It is one of those little school type desks with the cubby and is about the height of a tall end table.)

The first time I moved out of the room 5 or so years ago I moved out because of a night time incident where the kids were being loud and bothersome. I raised my voice to get things under control. My loudness woke him up. He got mad and the end result was that I got shoved. It was supposedly an accident because we were both trying to get in/out of a doorway/small space at the same time. In the "conversation" that we had, he brought up that night and said that I wouldn't have gotten shoved and there wouldn't have been a problem if I could have just been quiet and not said anything to the kids. They were just being kids. I was the loud one, blah, blah, blah. He does not help with any of the night time parenting. Instead of offering to help, he gets mad and stomps around and expects me to be able to work nights, do the night time parenting, keep up with the bills, do most of the cooking, keep up with other household stuff, and still be little miss friggin' sunshine. Most of the time, I do a pretty darn good job. Other times, it is all I can do not to break down.

I suspect I am probably 6 months or so behind you in decision making.  We had a long good spell, made a move that she wanted to make (I agreed to move since we were doing better) and after being in the new house for about a week she turned abusive and brought her FOO in to help her get rid of me.  Now she says she wants to go back to MC, so... .we'll see.  So, I know the feeling of "being done".  I'm done with the dysfunction.  If we can get a lot of that out of the r/s, then perhaps I can hang in there or even thrive.

We had one session together. The therapist told him he needed to grow up and told me to stop mothering him. He was better for a couple of days and then slipped back into doing very little or nothing. He loves to tell me he will do things later and then not follow through. The shingles that have been sitting in our yard since our roof was replaced last year have just recently been cleaned up by me and our oldest daughter. I gave him ample opportunity to change, step up and help, and show that he could be a coparent in the same house. It doesn't work. I cannot thrive with him around. I thought I could. I can't. I am trying to have some compassion and be realistic about things.

Last thought:  You seem to know a lot about his dating life.  I get it he is pushing this on you and you don't want to know it.  This would be painful for me, it seems painful for you.  I would focus efforts here first.

I haven't heard anything about it recently so that is a good thing. My guess is that I haven't heard anything about it because it has become non-existent.

[formflier]

What is the reason for matching these things up?

That process would define who lives where and have some legality to it.  I kinda get the idea of who your hubby is/what he is like and the comment about him needed to grow up is right on target.

I think Cat Familiar had a post about wanting a man and getting a boy.  In VOCs case I think she has a toddler that is a sex addict.

I am very intentional about the way I (we) raise my boys and girls.  Many would call us old fashioned, but I want my boys to hit their 20s and be able to be a man.  I realize that we mature for the rest of our lives, but I think there is an epidemic of 20 some year old males out there that barely qualify as teenagers (if you look at their behavior). 

My understanding of what is going on in your hubby's head is that he has the things he wants/needs without giving much effort for it and so has no motivation to do more.  It's now habitual and combined with disordered thinking so there is about zero chance he will change.

Moving out would indicate maturity on his part and thinking of you.  Chances of that happening?

OK, my next comment might sound a bit combative, I don't mean it that way, I mean it to explain a "male point of view" that I hold, and i suspect many hold.

If you are the one done with the r/s, I don't understand the expectation that he move out.  I do see lots of practical benefits for you and the kids from your point of view.

It would seem healthier and more authentic to say I am unhappy with my life and I am making these changes for me, vice saying I am unhappy with my life and I expect you to do these things (move out) to accommodate my changes.

I get it that there are money, childcare, and other issues that make implementing the theory of you make the change hard.

Last thought/question:  Is there any way to move two kids in together to free up a room.  In reading your post, the space thing is a big deal for you.  It is for me to.  Read my posts on my need/want for good sleep hygiene. 

I'm probably projecting a lot of me into this suggestion, but having my own bedroom (if I was in your position) would mean the world of difference to me.  I wouldn't hesitate to put a lock on it to have my own space.

FF

[Suzn]

You said the therapist told him to grow up and for you to stop mothering him. Indeed. Why are you still doing that?

You defend him not finding a job because he can't find a job working in his field. Or at least so far he hasn't found one. Sometimes we have to take what we can find temporarily and work outside our field to survive. Defending him here is enabling.

Vortex you have put everyone's needs before your own and are resenting it. It's not unusual for someone to put their needs last when it comes to children. He is not a child, he is a grown man. A grown man that has his own private residence in a home with his own children who he doesn't seem to see that he has a responsibility to help support. This is addict behavior and he doesn't have to be on OKCupid to characterize that relapse.

Why would he make any changes he sounds quite comfortable. Nothing changes without changes and those usually start with us.

[vortex of confusion]

That process would define who lives where and have some legality to it.  I kinda get the idea of who your hubby is/what he is like and the comment about him needed to grow up is right on target.

Good point! My fear is that he would get the house and the kids and I would have to leave. I tried leaving with the kids once and it was a disaster.

Moving out would indicate maturity on his part and thinking of you.  Chances of that happening?

The chances are zero to none. I have talked to his mother and she is trying to get him to go stay with her for a while.

If you are the one done with the r/s... .I don't understand the expectation that he move out.  I do see lots of practical benefits for you and the kids from your point of view.

I didn't start out with wanting him to move out. Originally, we were going to try to live in the same house to coparent. I want him to have access to the kids and I do see some practical aspects of him staying. Things were okay as long as he was working because he worked during the day and I worked two nights a week and Sundays. We only had to see each other two nights a week and Saturdays. It was a lot easier to deal with in limited quantities.

It would seem healthier and more authentic to say I am unhappy with my life and I am making these changes for me, vice saying I am unhappy with my life and I expect you to do these things (move out) to accommodate my changes.

I am going to need to think about this.

I get it that there are money, childcare, and other issues that make implementing the theory of you make the change hard.

I am the one that has done almost all of the childcare. If he doesn't leave, then the options are me leaving with the kids, which will be very difficult due to finances and finding an affordable place to rent that has enough space for 5 people. Or, I could leave and let him be the primary parent. I am not comfortable with that option at all.

Last thought/question:  Is there any way to move two kids in together to free up a room.  In reading your post, the space thing is a big deal for you.  It is for me to.  Read my posts on my need/want for good sleep hygiene.

The only way for him and I to both have our own room is to move all 4 kids into one room. That is not a workable solution. I don't need locked doors and a lot of physical space. The space that I am wanting is emotional space. It is difficult to think sometimes when he tries to engage me. I can sleep just about anywhere and I don't have a problem if somebody wakes me up because they need something.

[vortex of confusion]

You said the therapist told him to grow up and for you to stop mothering him. Indeed. Why are you still doing that?

You defend him not finding a job because he can't find a job working in his field. Or at least so far he hasn't found one. Sometimes we have to take what we can find temporarily and work outside our field to survive. Defending him here is enabling.

OUCH! You are so right. Reading that is very painful as I know it is true. How do I approach this with him? I have tried to talk to him about the work stuff. I don't know how to approach it without him blowing me off or acting like I am crazy for bringing it up.

Vortex you have put everyone's needs before your own and are resenting it. It's not unusual for someone to put their needs last when it comes to children. He is not a child, he is a grown man. A grown man that has his own private residence in a home with his own children who he doesn't seem to see that he has a responsibility to help support. This is addict behavior and he doesn't have to be on OKCupid to characterize that relapse.

That is so painful to read. You are right. In his mind, he is supporting his children because he still has the retirement money that he withdrew early in addition to unemployment. That money will run out and I will be left to figure out how to pay the bills with my income. I have done the math and I can get by for a little while.

Why would he make any changes he sounds quite comfortable. Nothing changes without changes and those usually start with us.

How do I make things uncomfortable enough for him to change/leave/do something different? I feel like that might be where I am stuck as I feel like I am walking a fine line. I am trying to figure out how to keep the kids from seeing any more crap than necessary. I am afraid that pushing things too hard will lead to a complete disaster.

I am hoping to get some clarity and strength over the weekend while I am away.

[formflier]

Why would he make any changes he sounds quite comfortable. Nothing changes without changes and those usually start with us.

Ok, I'll speak for guys here again.  And I will say that it is a sad truth, but truth nonetheless. 

Guys will usually do the minimum to get what they want.  So it is up to the woman in the r/s to set the minimum.

How many stories have you heard about a guy moving in with a girl, "talking about marriage" and then he never wants to get married.  And why should he?  He gets sex, food, shelter, someone to keep the house nice, etc etc without having to put a ring on her finger.  What is the motivation for a guy to do the right thing.

Yes, I know, there are guys that will do the right thing, for the right things sake.  I don't think that is the majority.

IN VOCs case you add in some FOO issues, disordered thinking, sex addiction,

Back to Suzn's point.  He is comfortable.  At most he see's this as a mild annoyance. 

VOC,

What does "mothering him" look like?  I've read your posts for a while, and I don't have a clear vision of what this looks like.  I would say you "put up" with way to much crap from him, so I am curious about the mothering comment.

FF

[Suzn]

Addiction does not discriminate. Addict behaviors are addict behaviours. Doing "the right thing" is a question of maturity not gender. Let's not sidetrack the issue.

[sweetheart]

VOC, 

You said that you tried leaving with the children before and that went wrong, what does that mean and what hypothetically needs to happen to make this option work?

I understand this isn't really the option you want, but neither do you want the option you are living with.

When we are stuck it's because very often we are caught up doing things that are very familiar to us, even if they are distasteful.

The questions that you pose here now are very similar in their frustrations and difficulties to the dilemmas you brought before. In as much as so often the focal theme was about waiting and wanting your h to change. He isn't going to. That's a given now.

And dare I say it all the time you are waiting for the shift to happen in him, you remain in stasis.

[formflier]

Addiction does not discriminate. Addict behaviors are addict behaviours. Doing "the right thing" is a question of maturity not gender. Let's not sidetrack the issue.

I disagree about the gender comment.  I understand there are other points of view on this and I can see how women may think it unfair that they have to set the standard.

To me I think it is human nature.

Granted, my argument and my teaching on this is more towards setting the standard to get married.  In other words, what does it "cost" the guy to get the girl, but the same thought process is used by guys for most areas of their life.

They will rarely do extra.

Yes there are exceptions to all rules, but in VOCs case I see a comfortable guy that is doing absolute minimum to keep himself comfortable and it's working for him and not for her.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

What does "mothering him" look like?  I've read your posts for a while... .and I don't have a clear vision of what this looks like.  I would say you "put up" with way to much crap from him... .so I am curious about the mothering comment.

What does it look like? It looks like me rescuing him, making excuses for him, and putting him in the same category that as the children.

It was me reminding him to do things because he doesn't take the initiative to do things on his own. One of the things the counselor said to him was something along the lines of, "Why can't you see that something needs done and do it without having to be asked or told?" He shrugged and said he didn't know.

When he was complaining about missing his friends in his home town that he used to play music with, I got online and found opportunities for him to play music. Whenever he has been out of a job in the past, I have sent him links and helped him with his job search. Whenever he has wanted or needed something, I have tried to help him find a way to get it. There are too many examples of this to name. He has ridden my coat tails for years.

Any time something needs done, I am the one that typically finds a way to make it happen. Even with small stuff, he will bring it to me and ask me to review it because he is afraid that he has messed it up. That goes back to his mother and I just took up the reigns where she left off.

It is exactly what Suzn said above, I put his needs before my own because I have put him in the same category as the children. I have backed off of that quite a bit and he clearly doesn't like it. He doesn't say anything directly yet his body language and actions show that he is still looking for me to mother him and listen to him and be his home base, kind of like the toddler on the playground does.

[vortex of confusion]

You said that you tried leaving with the children before and that went wrong, what does that mean and what hypothetically needs to happen to make this option work?

I found a place that I could afford. I talked to the kids. The thought of them leaving their house made them physically ill. They begged and pleaded for me to stay. I couldn't do that to them. And, I misfigured and couldn't afford it when it was all said and done.

Hypothetically, I would have to find a much higher paying job to do this now. Finding a place to rent with 4 kids isn't going to be cheap. Plus, I would have to do a lot of ground work with the kids. I cannot afford to leave. Our mortgage payments are ridiculously cheap. Even an efficiency apartment would cost more than our monthly mortgage payment. This is an issue for both of us. At one point, I discussed getting a small travel trailer to put on our property so that we could both have our own space and access to the kids.

When we are stuck it's because very often we are caught up doing things that are very familiar to us, even if they are distasteful.

I think this is true in my case. I don't like what I am doing. At least it is familiar. I know that I am very afraid of doing things differently because I am afraid that different will be ten times worse. I know that this sort of thinking isn't helpful. That is why I decided to post even though I feel like a broken record.

The questions that you pose here now are very similar in their frustrations and difficulties to the dilemmas you brought before. In as much as so often the focal theme was about waiting and wanting your h to change. He isn't going to. That's a given now.

I have made progress in that I know he isn't going to change. I have made progress in admitting to myself that I am done with the relationship. I feel like I have made a lot of internal progress. Now, I need to figure out how to translate the internal shift into concrete action and it scares the daylights out of me.

And dare I say it all the time you are waiting for the shift to happen in him, you remain in stasis.

I know that there isn't going to be a shift in him. At least I know that on an intellectual level. I am trying to get all of the head, heart, action stuff to get on the same page.

[vortex of confusion]

I disagree about the gender comment.  I understand there are other points of view on this and I can see how women may think it unfair that they have to set the standard.

To me I think it is human nature.

Granted, my argument and my teaching on this is more towards setting the standard to get married.  In other words, what does it "cost" the guy to get the girl, but the same thought process is used by guys for most areas of their life.

They will rarely do extra.

Yes there are exceptions to all rules, but in VOCs case I see a comfortable guy that is doing absolute minimum to keep himself comfortable and it's working for him and not for her.

I am going to disagree with this. I think part of my problem is the fact that I grew up around men that were very capable. I saw them do a lot of extra. My parents have a crappy relationship yet my dad does a lot of extra stuff for my mom. I have seen him spend hours at a thrift store (with her and me) and help us find particular things. I have seen my dad go out of his way on a lot of occasions.

I grew up with really high expectations of men because the men that I was around were pretty awesome. Yes, there was dysfunction and goofiness and things were messed up. The bottom line was that I could rely on my dad and other men when growing. I felt much safer around men than I ever did around females. I can't say the same about my mom or the other women in my life.

It never occurred to me that a husband wouldn't step up to the plate and do what was necessary and then some. It never occurred to me that a man wouldn't do anything extra. I kept waiting for it to happen yet it didn't. My expectations were way too high and I knew it so I lowered them until they became non-existent.

[sweetheart]

What I was told once by a T when I said my son would fall to pieces emotionally if we left his father, ( this was at the height of his dysregulated behaviour ) that it wasn't what he wanted. She said you're the adult, the functional parent, it is your job to ensure you prioritise your sons well-being above everything else. She went on to say that if he lives in a dysfunctional environment that will be his normal, why would he want to leave, how would he know anything else.

It was for me to lead by example and not pay attention to my sons normal.

[Suzn]

You defend him not finding a job because he can't find a job working in his field. Or at least so far he hasn't found one. Sometimes we have to take what we can find temporarily and work outside our field to survive. Defending him here is enabling.

OUCH! You are so right. Reading that is very painful as I know it is true. How do I approach this with him? I have tried to talk to him about the work stuff. I don't know how to approach it without him blowing me off or acting like I am crazy for bringing it up.

My point here was about you defending him. If you agree with him that just because there aren't any openings in his field that it's ok not to be employed then he likely won't try all that hard to be employed. Having a job and being a contributing member of the family is what adults do unless they are independently wealthy. It's also a requirement in most recovery programs to be self sustaining.

Vortex you have put everyone's needs before your own and are resenting it. It's not unusual for someone to put their needs last when it comes to children. He is not a child, he is a grown man. A grown man that has his own private residence in a home with his own children who he doesn't seem to see that he has a responsibility to help support. This is addict behavior and he doesn't have to be on OKCupid to characterize that relapse.

That is so painful to read. You are right. In his mind, he is supporting his children because he still has the retirement money that he withdrew early in addition to unemployment. That money will run out and I will be left to figure out how to pay the bills with my income. I have done the math and I can get by for a little while.

It's sad to hear that he will likely blow through his retirement money without attempting to replenish it. This could be money saved in an account for emergencies or for other important purchases. But that's his choice. There is more to supporting children than financial support. Supporting your children is also about setting examples for them. What example is being set here?

Why would he make any changes he sounds quite comfortable. Nothing changes without changes and those usually start with us.

How do I make things uncomfortable enough for him to change/leave/do something different? I feel like that might be where I am stuck as I feel like I am walking a fine line. I am trying to figure out how to keep the kids from seeing any more crap than necessary. I am afraid that pushing things too hard will lead to a complete disaster.  

This isn't about trying to make him feel uncomfortable. He already feels uncomfortable which is why he copes in the ways he does. This is about you identifying your values so you can identify and enforce your boundaries for yourself and your children. Boundaries aren't enforced by yelling, making snide remarks (which is passive aggressive), defending his behavior and saving him. Those things are disastrous to him and you.

I did this with my brother for most of my adult life. The first time my brother was in recovery (inpatient) and he and his counselor talked about our relationship, his counselor told him I was poison to him. Hurt like hell hearing about that and at the time I had no comprehension of what it meant but I understand it now and he was right. The more I kept fixing things for him the more he stayed stuck in a childlike existence.

You mentioned your dad going over and above for you and your mom. That you didn't trust your mom (correct me if I didn't follow that correctly). Is this dynamic playing out in your family? Referring back to what sweetheart said, is this your normal?



 

[vortex of confusion]

I want to thank everyone for the replies so far. I am getting ready to go away for the weekend. This gives me a lot to think about. I will try to come back and give a more detailed reply after the weekend.

[vortex of confusion]

What I was told once by a T when I said my son would fall to pieces emotionally if we left his father, ( this was at the height of his dysregulated behaviour ) that it wasn't what he wanted. She said you're the adult, the functional parent, it is your job to ensure you prioritise your sons well-being above everything else. She went on to say that if he lives in a dysfunctional environment that will be his normal, why would he want to leave, how would he know anything else.

It was for me to lead by example and not pay attention to my sons normal.

I have been pondering this. How were you able to lead by example?

For a whole lot of years, this was NOT normal. For a lot of years, I thought things were okay. There were bits and pieces that were off. I feel like we used to get along okay and worked well together at the parenting stuff. The normal that I spent a lot of years trying to establish was non-violence, peacefulness, and a general sense of mindfulness. Those have been my goals and what I worked towards. He payed lip service to it and I bought into it.

[vortex of confusion]

My point here was about you defending him. If you agree with him that just because there aren't any openings in his field that it's ok not to be employed then he likely won't try all that hard to be employed. Having a job and being a contributing member of the family is what adults do unless they are independently wealthy. It's also a requirement in most recovery programs to be self sustaining.

I see your point. I was defending him and making excuses for him not having a job yet. He says that he is in recovery. I don't buy it for one second. Last summer, I had somebody tell me that he wasn't in recovery. I got a little upset about that because he was saying all of the right things and attending his meetings. He picked up his chips like a good little boy for his sobriety milestones. There have been times that I have asked him if he has shared things with his sponsor or his mom or his friends or anybody other than me. Most of the time, he doesn't tell anybody much of anything. I spoke with his mother a couple of weeks ago and she had no idea what was going on. He hadn't told her much of anything.

It's sad to hear that he will likely blow through his retirement money without attempting to replenish it. This could be money saved in an account for emergencies or for other important purchases. But that's his choice. There is more to supporting children than financial support. Supporting your children is also about setting examples for them. What example is being set here?

I am not sure what example is being set. My gut says that the example that is being set is that it is okay to do the bare minimum without putting money aside for emergencies. I recently had to get the brakes on my van fixed. I had been telling him for months that something was wrong with them. He kept telling me that they were fine. I asked him to get them checked out when he got the oil changed. He said he did and that they were fine. I let my parents borrow the van for a road trip. Dad said that the brakes were not okay. My brother drove it and said the same thing. My brother took my van and fixed the brakes for me. I don't trust myself much any more because he tries to talk me out of things that I am pretty sure are true.

This isn't about trying to make him feel uncomfortable. He already feels uncomfortable which is why he copes in the ways he does. This is about you identifying your values so you can identify and enforce your boundaries for yourself and your children. Boundaries aren't enforced by yelling, making snide remarks (which is passive aggressive), defending his behavior and saving him. Those things are disastrous to him and you.

All I really want is for him to leave.

You mentioned your dad going over and above for you and your mom. That you didn't trust your mom (correct me if I didn't follow that correctly). Is this dynamic playing out in your family? Referring back to what sweetheart said, is this your normal?   

You followed that correctly. I did not trust my mom like I did my dad. I trusted mom up to a certain point. Dad was definitely the one that was the most reliable. There have been times that I have thought to myself that my stbx and my mother are a little alike. The gender roles are reversed in my house and have been for a really long time.

[sweetheart]

Leading by example meant for me ensuring that our son did not become enmeshed or codependent or emotionally bound in anyway by living with a father who was mentally ill. It also meant that if I didn't want that for my son then it was up to me to ensure that he saw me behaving and living in a way that didn't contradict this.

It never occurred to me to actively educate my son about his fathers mental illness, or say that when his daddy was being irritable, isolative or preoccupied or just plain weird, that this was because he was mentally ill. Our son thankfully never saw any of the extremes of my h's dysregulated behaviour or the times when he was at his most unstable, but he saw me stressed and upset. I know for a while my son was confused and anxious because I was too busy trying to rescue my h from something I now realise he couldn't be rescued from.

I realised my focus was all wrong, that it needed to be with my son and me. Yes I was protecting my son, but I wasn't letting him know that what was going on for us wasn't normal, other mums and dads didn't live like this. Other mums don't sleep on the sofa, other dads don't spend whole days shut in a bedroom. Other homes don't have healthcare professionals traipse through there home everyday through the Christmas holidays, and so on.


I also equipped our son with the same skills that I learnt here. I made sure that I gave him space to feel and express anger and sadness alongside love and compassion for his father. I endeavoured to never bad mouth, argue, belittle or put down my husband in any way that our son bore witness too. That didn't mean I had no boundaries, I did, but I just lived them, rather than enforced them.

The T told me to create an active, carefree life for our son outside the house, despite his fathers illness. I was honest with my son and said nothing we could do would fix his dad, no amount of love could fix him. I said if things got too bad that daddy would have to go live somewhere else because he might be too unwell to stay living with us.

My h was very obviously mentally ill, so it was kind of easy to step outside that and say this is not any where close to normal.

The thing is emotional dysfunction can be really insidious and sneaky. It snuck up on us. Collateral damage is not always easy to assess. I remember going to bed each night thinking that tomorrow would be better. The realisation came when I realised that I was giving all my power away to my husbands dysfunction in the hope that if I could just smooth over the cracks each time, no one would notice.

It might sound like a bit of a cliche, but informing and educating my son in the same way that the resources and support from this forum did for me, changed our lives. I gave back the responsibility for my husbands illness to him and the mental health team that looked after him. I let go of rescuing, enabling, excusing, minimising abusive, passive-aggressive really awful raging behaviour and led by example by reclaiming ownership of myself and letting my son know that dysfunction doesn't have to hold you hostage, doesn't have to fill you up with resentment, bitterness, frustration and fear; especially if it belongs to the other person.

The crazy irony in all of this is my h has been relatively stable since he came out of prison last August. He spent his sentence between the healthcare wing and a psychiatric facility getting regular medication and lots of TLC.  There have been a couple of blips, but I just phone the crisis team and hand it over to them. He has just agreed to start DBT. I had nothing to do with any of this. I don't discuss it with him. I know for sure that if I had not backed away we wouldn't be together now, and our sons emotional well-being would have been collateral damage.


Sorry VOC it turned it to a bit of long one, but it's something that I feel really passionately about. Plus we managed to come out the other side intact and together as a family, even though with this illness there will never be any guarantees. I accept that though.

[Suzn]

He says that he is in recovery. I don't buy it for one second. Last summer, I had somebody tell me that he wasn't in recovery. I got a little upset about that because he was saying all of the right things and attending his meetings. He picked up his chips like a good little boy for his sobriety milestones.

A lot of times the best an addict can do is go to meetings. What your H is doing may be all he can do. Meaning, a lot of people in recovery programs don't comprehend the steps in the program.

Supporting your children is also about setting examples for them. What example is being set here?

I am not sure what example is being set. My gut says that the example that is being set is that it is okay to do the bare minimum without putting money aside for emergencies.

Yes. And another example could be if you find the right partner they'll do everything for you. Or, if I have a partner that won't contribute to the family I'll do everything for them.  

I don't trust myself much any more because he tries to talk me out of things that I am pretty sure are true.

He is not responsible for you trusting yourself. Trusting your instincts belongs to you, not him.  

This isn't about trying to make him feel uncomfortable. He already feels uncomfortable which is why he copes in the ways he does. This is about you identifying your values so you can identify and enforce your boundaries for yourself and your children. Boundaries aren't enforced by yelling, making snide remarks (which is passive aggressive), defending his behavior and saving him. Those things are disastrous to him and you.

All I really want is for him to leave.

For me, these relationships repeated over and over until I got an understanding of my role, addressed it and started living my life in recovery.

There have been times that I have thought to myself that my stbx and my mother are a little alike.

In what ways?

[vortex of confusion]

It never occurred to me to actively educate my son about his fathers mental illness, or say that when his daddy was being irritable, isolative or preoccupied or just plain weird, that this was because he was mentally ill. Our son thankfully never saw any of the extremes of my h's dysregulated behaviour or the times when he was at his most unstable, but he saw me stressed and upset. I know for a while my son was confused and anxious because I was too busy trying to rescue my h from something I now realise he couldn't be rescued from.

Thank you for the detailed response!

I know that he has diabetes and I have educated the kids about that and how it can impact his moods. If his blood sugar is out of whack, that could cause him to be grumpy or behave in other not so wonderful ways. I need to do a better job with self care so that I can do a better job of living up to the kind of person I want to be. I have been so wrapped up in trying to figure things out that I have not been at my best.

My kids have only seen little bitty tidbits here and there. They have no idea of the full scope of the stuff that has gone on.

I also equipped our son with the same skills that I learnt here. I made sure that I gave him space to feel and express anger and sadness alongside love and compassion for his father. I endeavoured to never bad mouth, argue, belittle or put down my husband in any way that our son bore witness too. That didn't mean I had no boundaries, I did, but I just lived them, rather than enforced them.

I have tried to do those same things. In the past, I would dismiss the kids' complaints about dad. At the time, I didn't realize that I was dismissing them. At the time, I thought that I was trying to keep them from being so negative about dad. Now, it feels like validating them is feeding the negativity. I see the kids trying to alienate him. I have tried to talk to them about it and they give examples of why they push him away and don't want his help. I feel sorry for him in a lot of cases because he seems to lack the ability to understand basic things.

My h was very obviously mentally ill, so it was kind of easy to step outside that and say this is not any where close to normal.

The thing is emotional dysfunction can be really insidious and sneaky. It snuck up on us. Collateral damage is not always easy to assess. I remember going to bed each night thinking that tomorrow would be better. The realisation came when I realised that I was giving all my power away to my husbands dysfunction in the hope that if I could just smooth over the cracks each time, no one would notice.

I don't think my h is obviously mentally ill. He is a bit quirky and comes across as pompous. I don't think people would see him as mentally ill. The emotional dysfunction has definitely snuck up on me. I used to find myself thinking, "Things will be better when [fill in the blank] happens." I would make excuses for him and our situation. I would find reasons to dismiss myself. He isn't grumpy, I am just too sensitive. There were times when I would say something about his grumpiness or tone of voice or how he interacted with me. He would say things like, "I don't know what you mean. I am just being me." I know that I am sensitive to yelling and violence so I tried to ignore it or overlook it. I didn't think anybody noticed until I started talking to family members and other people that have been around us.

It might sound like a bit of a cliche, but informing and educating my son in the same way that the resources and support from this forum did for me, changed our lives. I gave back the responsibility for my husbands illness to him and the mental health team that looked after him. I let go of rescuing, enabling, excusing, minimising abusive, passive-aggressive really awful raging behaviour and led by example by reclaiming ownership of myself and letting my son know that dysfunction doesn't have to hold you hostage, doesn't have to fill you up with resentment, bitterness, frustration and fear; especially if it belongs to the other person.

This is an area that I really need to work on more. Whether he moves out or not, I am still going to have to work with him because of the kids. I have every intention of making sure that he gets to be a regular part of the kids' lives. While I was gone for the weekend, he did great with the kids. I was really worried because there was a bit of a fiasco between him and our oldest on the day I planned to leave. I was proud of how I handled it. I didn't let their dispute interfere with my plans. I think it was a bit of an extinction burst on both of their parts. They were both not happy about me leaving and had been on edge in the time leading up to my departure. In the past, I would have changed my plans, stayed home, fixed everything, and then threw my hands up in the air. I didn't do that at all. I took charge and took the kids to my mom's house to give them all some space. He and our oldest were both trying to tell me their side and argue with each other. I told them both to stop. I took the kid's to mom's house. I talked to the oldest and then I went home and talked to him. I was NOT going to let them put me in the middle of their dispute. Once they both calmed down, everything was fine. I also wasn't going to fix anything between them. The oldest did apologize to him when she went home. They went on to work together and do some work around the house. I was very happy with how things turned out. It was so hard to NOT change my plans and stay home.

Sorry VOC it turned it to a bit of long one, but it's something that I feel really passionately about. Plus we managed to come out the other side intact and together as a family, even though with this illness there will never be any guarantees. I accept that though.

I don't see any way for us to come out on the other side in tact. I don't want to do that at all. I want to come out on the other side more peaceful and able to work with him for the sake of the kids. I cannot and will not ever be able to be in a romantic relationship with him again. I spent a lot of time trying to dismiss my own pain and hurt that I felt as a result of his behaviors that he has blamed on his sex addiction. I think that is one of my stumbling blocks. I am trying to process the pain of feeling like he threw me away. I don't want to rehash that but I do know that I don't think I will be able to fully process it until I get some time where I don't have to see him or be around him.