Why does he bother with therapy?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Well, we had what I thought was a really good marriage therapy session. We got lots of advice about how to deescalate things before they get heated, and I really thought BPDh was paying attention. I found out he either didn't, or he just doesn't want to do anything other than what he's always done.

He got angry at me tonight because I counted some money he had on his bedside table. It was loose, and not in his wallet. I only counted it because he's said we were broke, and yet it looked like he had a lot of cash. There was $130.00 there. I asked him if I could have $40.00 so I have some cash. He got mad, and said it's HIS money, and then he came into the bedroom, and accused me of "going through his stuff". I told him we need milk, and it wasn't like I was asking for all the money. He'll go tomorrow and get his car washed for $14.00, and he'll probably go out to lunch. My phone on off for non payment. He's isolating me, I feel.

He said some really hateful things after he got angry that I asked for money. I NEVER ask for money, because I have use of the debit card. I was job hunting a few months back, and had a second interview lined up, but he told me not to take the job, because he wanted us to do an antique booth together, and he also didn't want me to give up weekends together. He's made really bad financial decisions, and now he seems to want me to get a job so I can hand the check over to him. He took on a car payment we can't afford, because he blew threw the insurance settlement after his paid off car got wrecked. I'd even hidden the check because I knew he'd do that. His Dad and I kept trying to get him to buy a car with the settlement, but he just wouldn't. He demanded I give the check back, and he blew through it.

I wouldn't mind getting a job if it wasn't just to bail him out, when I have NO SAY in finances or anything. He's paying part of his Dad's bills, and he's constantly funnelling money into his grown son's account. He makes really good money, but he owes everyone, and he hid this from me when we were dating. We should be able to more than make it on his income. I'd be working minimum wage, and he makes $117,000 a year. I'm frugal, and he has to have the best of everything. We haven't done groceries in months, and have been living off the freezer. We buy milk and bread and just essentials. Yet he goes out for lunch, and when he gets paid, he splurges.

He said some really hurtful, hateful things tonight, that yet again lets me know how he really views me. I'm not really sure I want to be with someone that has such an ugly, negative view of ME. He's done awful things to me, and he runs me down all the time, but my view of him is not nearly as negative as his is of me. I'm always telling him how much I appreciate him, and trying to build him up.

Tomorrow is our anniversary, and the ugly things he said are ringing in my head still. He did this right before bed, and I was crying(which I try not to do because I think he gets off on hurting me), and he went right to sleep like he didn't even care.

I left a card, and his present in the bathroom where he'll notice it in the morning. I'm awake because I can't sleep because I feel so awful. I expect nothing from him tomorrow, and in fact, I think I might try to avoid him tomorrow. We were supposed to go to one of the foodie events that I joined, but I'd actually rather do it solo. He won't be able to call me as my phone is not working, so I think I might sneak off to attend the event alone.

He ruined my birthday and the days surrounding it(making sure I didn't get to see my parents for my birthday), and he ruined Valentines Day. I'm not going to let him ruin our anniversary. It's not really something I feel like celebrating after he yet again showed his ugly, negative view he has of me.

Why doesn't therapy seem to help him at all, when I get so much out of it?

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, we had what I thought was a really good marriage therapy session. We got lots of advice about how to deescalate things before they get heated, and I really thought BPDh was paying attention. I found out he either didn't, or he just doesn't want to do anything other than what he's always done.

He got angry at me tonight because I counted some money he had on his bedside table. It was loose, and not in his wallet. I only counted it because he's said we were broke, and yet it looked like he had a lot of cash. There was $130.00 there. I asked him if I could have $40.00 so I have some cash. He got mad, and said it's HIS money, and then he came into the bedroom, and accused me of "going through his stuff". I told him we need milk, and it wasn't like I was asking for all the money. He'll go tomorrow and get his car washed for $14.00, and he'll probably go out to lunch. My phone on off for non payment. He's isolating me, I feel.

He said some really hateful things after he got angry that I asked for money. I NEVER ask for money, because I have use of the debit card. I was job hunting a few months back, and had a second interview lined up, but he told me not to take the job, because he wanted us to do an antique booth together, and he also didn't want me to give up weekends together. He's made really bad financial decisions, and now he seems to want me to get a job so I can hand the check over to him. He took on a car payment we can't afford, because he blew threw the insurance settlement after his paid off car got wrecked. I'd even hidden the check because I knew he'd do that. His Dad and I kept trying to get him to buy a car with the settlement, but he just wouldn't. He demanded I give the check back, and he blew through it.

I wouldn't mind getting a job if it wasn't just to bail him out, when I have NO SAY in finances or anything. He's paying part of his Dad's bills, and he's constantly funnelling money into his grown son's account. He makes really good money, but he owes everyone, and he hid this from me when we were dating. We should be able to more than make it on his income. I'd be working minimum wage, and he makes $117,000 a year. I'm frugal, and he has to have the best of everything. We haven't done groceries in months, and have been living off the freezer. We buy milk and bread and just essentials. Yet he goes out for lunch, and when he gets paid, he splurges.

He said some really hurtful, hateful things tonight, that yet again lets me know how he really views me. I'm not really sure I want to be with someone that has such an ugly, negative view of ME. He's done awful things to me, and he runs me down all the time, but my view of him is not nearly as negative as his is of me. I'm always telling him how much I appreciate him, and trying to build him up.

Tomorrow is our anniversary, and the ugly things he said are ringing in my head still. He did this right before bed, and I was crying(which I try not to do because I think he gets off on hurting me), and he went right to sleep like he didn't even care.

I left a card, and his present in the bathroom where he'll notice it in the morning. I'm awake because I can't sleep because I feel so awful. I expect nothing from him tomorrow, and in fact, I think I might try to avoid him tomorrow. We were supposed to go to one of the foodie events that I joined, but I'd actually rather do it solo. He won't be able to call me as my phone is not working, so I think I might sneak off to attend the event alone.

He ruined my birthday and the days surrounding it(making sure I didn't get to see my parents for my birthday), and he ruined Valentines Day. I'm not going to let him ruin our anniversary. It's not really something I feel like celebrating after he yet again showed his ugly, negative view he has of me.

Why doesn't therapy seem to help him at all, when I get so much out of it?

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that this week he also said "your love comes with a price tag" in reference to the lack of him getting me anything on Valentines. It's ironic that he says that to his wife that he couldn't be bothered to get a small token for, but his grown son calls up on Valentines day and asks BPDh to transfer money into his bank account so he could buy things for his girlfriend for Valentines Day. I feel I got accused of something his son is actually doing! His son is constantly asking for money, and last year BPDh funded a failed business venture of his son's to the tune of $4,500. I nicely told him the "business" was setting his son up to fail, most likely, but I got ignored. His son made zero dollars on the venture, and BPDh lost the 4,500.

How can he feel my love "comes with a price tag", when I am only wanting to be remembered, but his son is always wanting money, or BPDh's things. His son comes over, and leaves with BPDh's xbox, telescope, and has also raided our storage unit. BPDh didn't even want to ask his son for the storage unit keys back, and I got so upset. I have a lot of stuff in there too.

He has no concept of "marriage". Everything is his, and he treats me like an object. I guess I'm just feeling hurt and angry after the things he said tonight. I sure wish I hadn't asked him of any of that money, but I should be able to and not have his behave this way. He didn't even attempt to use any of his DBT skills... .

[Notwendy]

Have you considered getting a job just for you? Then at least you would have some money that comes to you directly.

It is interesting that he came up with some reason why you should not take that job interview. Your phone is out now?

I would be concerned about this level of control/isolation/neglect.

You have stated before that you are determined to stay married. I agree that from your posts there doesn't seem to be much attempt on his part to change.

This is who he is.

[Notwendy]

CB- I can't choose your boundaries for you, or what the bottom line is for you to stay in this marriage. You may not have one.


Some people can push boundaries until there is a bottom line-deal breaker. If there is no bottom line, they may keep pushing.

A relationship usually involves at least some investment on the part of both people. This can be skewed in a dysfunctional relationship, but still, both people should want it at some level, and if they do, they would not want to cross that bottom line.

In addition, sometimes there are collateral investments. Parents may be at odds with each other, but care about their children. For example, my H would not refuse me grocery money as he cares about his kids being fed. Now, the agreement between us is that, if the money is for food, I buy food. If I go out and spend it on something else and there is no food, then I have not kept my side of the agreement. Agreements are tough in relationships with pwBPD but even then, they would not want to cross the bottom line if they have any investment in the relationship.

For the "bottom line" or deal breaker to be that, one has to act on it, and the other person would know it.

We all have them, no matter how committed the relationship is.  I know that for my H, infidelity is one of them. If I were to cross that line, he would end the relationship. This isn't the reason that I don't cross it, it is my value too, but I do know his feelings about it. One of my bottom lines would be a spouse creating emotional harm to a child. That isn't the reason that my H doesn't cross it. It is his boundary too because he loves the kids. So, we are aligned in our bottom lines, but we still have them.

I don't think it is good to threaten divorce as a means of manipulating someone's behavior. I think it is a last resort, but to not consider that it exists as an option could possibly be going too far in the other extreme. People have a bottom line- wherever it is. Maybe it is for some people finding out their spouse is a serious criminal, perhaps for others it would be a spouse choosing a different faith, or infidelity. The bottom line is individual for different people.

Love and commitment between two people should be enough. However, in some cases, when things get tough between people, there can be other reasons as well to motivate them to try to make things better. In your case, it seems that is the main bond between you. Your H doesn't need to worry if his kids will be hungry if he doesn't give you money for milk. He doesn't need to worry that if your phone isn't working, the kids can't get ahold of you. He has zero emotional collateral to be motivated to work on an relationship in order to keep his family together. His only connection is to you. That should be enough, in fact, it needs to be enough.

Your H seems to be the kind of guy to push to the bottom line. You mentioned he treated his ex differently. Perhaps this is because he knew her bottom line, and not to push that. However, he seems to keep pushing you, and your response is to stay married at all costs, to not rock the boat because he will threaten divorce. He has no bottom line as far as you are concerned. So why would he stop pushing it? And in his case, I think words would only agitate him. The bottom line for you would be to take action, when you decide you have had enough. I can not tell you what that action should be. That would be something to work out with your T, when you decide that you have had enough of this behavior.

[Sluggo]

For the "bottom line" or deal breaker to be that, one has to act on it, and the other person would know it. We all have them, no matter how committed the relationship is.

I really never thought of it like that.  My bottom line happened two months ago.  I stopped visiting my Dad even though he was in hospice.  My wife had requested this to show her love for her.   After he died, I realized I allowed her to go past my line and realized I neglected other relationships (kids, friends, FOO) to try to control her happiness for her. 

That was my bottom line which my wife still doesn't recognize as important to me.  I have left the marriage 40 days ago and filed for divorce

[Ceruleanblue]

I have therapy at two today. I think she wonders why I'm still with him. She does help us in marriage therapy, but as usual, BPDh came home and the first time he got upset(over me asking for a little bit of that cash he had), he forgot everything she'd just said about deescalating, and staying calm, or taking a time out if he needed(she always terms it towards both of us, but it's clear that HE has the rage issue).

He has all that cash, and my phone bill is only 30 some dollars. He knows this, and will get his car washed today, I'm sure. I feel he is trying to isolate me. Now, he's not even responding to my emails. He did the same yesterday. I feel he's a classic abuser. Add a PD to that, and my life is rocky. I try to use the tools, and keep treating him as I would if he weren't so angry and difficult, but maybe that makes it worse?

I gave him his anniversary gift, even after he said hateful stuff last night, and he didn't even wish me happy anniversary. I figured this would be the case. I was expecting it this time, so I'm not hurt, really. In the past, on the few times I asked for cash, he'd sometimes initially refuse, but then leave me some. This time he didn't. I thought he might feel remorse after he'd slept and calmed down.

He never seems to really "calm down" like I read of a lot of other on here with BPD. It always feels like he just buries it, or it's just beneath the surface waiting to boil back up like hot lava.

Getting a job would be something I would be okay with doing if he didn't just want me to hand over my check. He pretty much told me last night that's what he wants and expects. I'm like a non person to him. He doesn't have to care about my feelings, he doesn't have to be sorry after he's hurt me, he just wants to use me for sex, and for me to now "go get a job" because he's over extended again. He hid all the debt he was in when we were dating. It was actually his family that told me. He won't let me help set a budget.

I don't know what my "bottom line" is. I gave up living with my son, for THIS? BPDh was a lot better for a while, but he's been in this bad place again now for a few months. I'll think he's climbing out, then he blows up again, like last night. I wish I hadn't asked him for any money, but dang, I shouldn't have to always regret doing normal things. I should be able to ask him for a little money!

His behavior is on him. I don't even want to attend the foodie group with him tonight, and I have no way of knowing if I should just go alone, or wait around for him. He wouldn't talk to me about it last night when I tried to ask him. I'm SO SICK of these head games or silent treatment things he does.

I think I'm just going to go without him. I emailed him, but so far, no response. He's an IT director, and his cell is always in his hand, for goodness sakes, I KNOW he got my email! This is about power and control though.

He'll be angry if I go without him, and I don't have a phone to even use my GPS to get there, but I'm going to go! This is something I do for ME.

Thoughts?

[flourdust]

I'm sorry this is happening. This seems to be an ongoing pattern, and you are clearly very unhappy with it but unsuccessful in changing it.

You said you don't know what your bottom line is. I think you should focus on figuring that out. Nothing will change unless you change the things you can control. You can control you. So figure out what you're going to do.

[Ceruleanblue]

That's what I'm trying to do. I do know I want to stay married, as we do have some good times, and when he's not dsyregulated, or in one of these "funks", we are good together. I guess I have the ability to see both good and bad, but he loses sight of that. I keep trying to compensate for his seeming lack of goodwill, kindness, and effort, and just putting it under the heading of "he can't help it, he has a PD". I'm just not sure I'm buying into that anymore though. It feels like I'm enabling him to be an *ss. A bully.

His ex got her education(she became a therapist), and she got away from all this. I know enough about their history though to know that she didn't try as hard on "her side of the street" as I have, and that is likely due to her history of being sexually assaulted as a child. I only say this because if she HAD been working on "her side", BPDh wouldn't have so many physical scars, and this happened over, and over again. I've never so much as slapped him, or done anything physical, but it's like he paints me with the same brush as her. NO, it's like he still excuses what SHE did, but he's painted me as this horrible person. It makes ZERO sense to me.

Their past only matters insofar as I'm trying to learn from it, sort of. I learned from my own past too. I so wish I didn't know so much about his past marriage, as that just makes me feel worse. But I'm starting to see that even thought his ex acted in bad ways, she was smart enough to get out(cheating was a sure way for her to get out). BPDh never truly got done with her, but she got done with him, and how he treated her. He takes so much more responsibility for that marriage, than he will in our marriage.

I can see how things could be so much better for us. I can see what he needs to do to feel better, but I can't do it for him. I know what I need, and want, and I go after it. I've worked on ME, until I'm blue. I'm happen when I'm alone, which is pretty telling. That doesn't mean I want to be single, but it tells me that I'm not depressed, sad, or frustrated, or hurt when it's not coming from an outside source. I know how to make myself happy. He doesn't.

I'm not sure where my bottom line is, but I'm going to try to find out. I think I know some dealbreakers. I won't tolerate him hitting me. I won't tolerate if he ever seriously crossed the line with my daughter(sexually, and I'm not saying he wants to). I do have boundaries now, but he does keep pushing, as was stated above.

He did reply to my email, and he stated that he knows he's pushing me away, and that he knows he needs to work his "plan" better instead of just these "baby steps" as he called it. I guess that's some self awareness? I just wish he could stop himself before he says or does something that kills how I feel about him and our marriage. I deserve better. So much better.

[Sluggo]

I'm not sure where my bottom line is, but I'm going to try to find out. I think I know some dealbreakers.

My problem which I didn't really realize,... .that my boundaries continue to get pushed in little by little over the years.  If I was put into my situation  now --- but with the boundaries I had 17 years ago when I was first married----  I would never had stayed or at least I wouldn't say it was normal.  They would have been very abnormal and hurtful then.

My normal became more and more 'abnormal' to others but stayed normal for me.  Like elastic band being stretched it did not go back to its current state as it stretched further and further.  The new size becomes the normal. 

Have your boundaries 'expanded' or 'stretched' over the years?  Would they still be considered healthy to 'who you were' at the time you first started your relationship?  At least for me they were much different after 17 years 

[sweetheart]

I'm not sure where my bottom line is, but I'm going to try to find out. I think I know some dealbreakers.

My problem which I didn't really realize,... .that my boundaries continue to get pushed in little by little over the years.  If I was put into my situation  now --- but with the boundaries I had 17 years ago when I was first married----  I would never had stayed or at least I wouldn't say it was normal.  They would have been very abnormal and hurtful then.

My normal became more and more 'abnormal' to others but stayed normal for me.  Like elastic band being stretched it did not go back to its current state as it stretched further and further.  The new size becomes the normal.  

Have your boundaries 'expanded' or 'stretched' over the years?  Would they still be considered healthy to 'who you were' at the time you first started your relationship?  At least for me they were much different after 17 years  

All4BVM that's a really great question and really insightful from you. I'm suspect that  realisation was incredibly painful and still is.  

[flourdust]

I think it can be a lengthy process to learn to see clearly what your options are and then decide which is the most acceptable.

I certainly understand what CB says about appreciating the good times in her marriage. Yet, I don't think it works to view your life as a set of scales, with the good on one scale and the bad on the other. Do two good dinner dates cancel out an hour of being screamed at and called names? Does a pleasant walk together make another holiday ignored go away? No, these keep accumulating, creating a psychic weight that drags us down.

I think it is becoming clearer to you what choices you have and what the likely outcomes of them will be.

There's always uncertainty. If I get divorced, will I be happier? Will it help me achieve other goals in my life? If I stay married, can I accept that this is what my life will be like? I don't know the answers to those questions. I can only make my best guess based on what I know now.

[Notwendy]

I think it is an honest response to not know what the bottom line is. But I think we all have them if we search ourselves. Yes, we marry as a promise to keep, but even that has a limit- and agreeably that limit is a last resort, but still, the limits of being mistreated are there.

The bottom line is personal, and I agree with All4BVM, those boundaries do get pushed, until perhaps they do get pushed too far. Not seeing my father would push me too far. Someone who truly cared about me would know that it was important to me.

I also think these decisions are difficult. Few people are all good or all bad, and few relationships are. Someone can be both very loving and also abusive. In fact, the abuse cycle of caring, and abuse is described.  It comes down to a personal boundary- when one has been pushed far enough.

[Verbena]

Ceruleanblue,

I've been married for over 33 years to my husband.  I have wished so many times that thirty years ago I had set some boundaries on behavior, but I didn't.  A pastor, who counseled me recently, told me that my husband had had it easy. 

I may not have liked his behavior for three decades and I may have told him over and over, but I never had a bottom line.  There seemed to be no limit to how much of his negativity, criticism, silent treatment, gaslighting, etc. that I would take. 

Although I have mentioned divorce twice lately (he ignored this) and have taken some steps to do what's right for me (leaving the church where we both had attended, getting counseling), I'm still not sure my H really believes I could ever leave him. 

My point is that you have not been married very long compared to me.  I assume you are considerably younger also.  Can you imagine another year of this?  Five more?  I know I certainly can't see myself in my marriage another five years with no changes. 

[Cat Familiar]

Cat Familiar, the hard ass, signing in. I've been tough with you in the past, CB and that's because your marriage is so reminiscent in many ways of my first marriage. I, too, believe it or not, was a placater and thought if I just loved him enough, he'd see the light and be a better person. Didn't happen.

Here's the deal: Your husband doesn't respect you.

You can be nice from here to Sunday and it's never going to change him.

He respected his ex because she didn't put up with his crap.

Remember "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Unless you change your behavior and I mean really change, you're going to get more of exactly what you've been getting.

[Daniell85]

CB, I would get a job. You know you are being isolated and financially manipulated.

If you had a job, it gives you options, it may raise your self esteem, give you the feeling of more control, and sensibly you can buy the milk when you need to, pay your cell phone bill, and move out of the area where you have to ask for every bit of money you may need or just want for something. It also takes you out of being isolated.

What can your husband actually do if you get a job? An antique stall is an unpredictible source of income.

[Verbena]

Why does your husband bother with therapy?

First, let me tell you why my husband refuses therapy.  He cannot tolerate his issues being discussed because he doesn't believe he has any issues, and he isn't about to listen to me tell a counselor about his behavior.  He knows he will come off looking bad if I am honest about our marriage.  

Is it possible that your husband goes to therapy just for the attention of it?  Is it possible he enjoys giving you false hope that the therapy could eventually change him?

I've said before that I see your husband as someone who takes great pleasure in hurting others, you in particular.  He knows how much you are hoping therapy will help him.  He even shares some of the "insights" he's gained from therapy because he knows this will give you hope.  The problem is that he has no intention of treating you any differently.

Sometimes, what you see is what you get.  I think your husband is showing you exactly what you're going to get from here on out.  

[Sluggo]

All4BVM that's a really great question and really insightful from you. I'm suspect that  realisation was incredibly painful and still is.

Yes it has been sweetheart.  I have seen recently friends that I carved out of my life (as it just became easier to not visit them rather than fight with my wife).  The couple of friends who said on different occasions.  "You are different from who you were before.  You look so beat down and you keep quesitoning your own perceptions".  

That was true but hard to hear or just realize that it is true.    

[Ceruleanblue]

I do know I'm being isolated. If I get a job, those resources then become his too. That is why I'm not okay with getting a job right now. He's being hateful about it, but HE is the one who got us in this position. I didn't come into the marriage owing the IRS and everyone else, that was him. Before things got this bad(prior to his motorcycle loan, higher rent of the place HE chose, and now an added car payment), I kept trying to get him to sit down with me and budget, but he just wouldn't. Plus, this is likely to be just another area where I won't be able to please him. His ex made more than me, blah, blah, blah. I'm so sick of him beating that drum. Sick of knowing that no matter how evil, he viewed her as the cat's pajamas.

I actually have great self esteem, surprisingly. I love so many things about me, I'm just sad that he doesn't choose to see the real me. He could have been married to Mother Theresa, and managed to vilify her. I know it's not personal, but it still stinks.

I do think BPDh enjoys therapy, which is why he doesn't mind going. Also, I think Verbena may be right, that he goes also to give me some hope. And for reference, I just turned 48, and I do not want to live the rest of my life with someone who finds me lacking, or doesn't appreciate much about me. He just wants to be angry, wallow, and choose negative thoughts. I'd like to think otherwise, but time will tell. He's in highly specialized therapy, and I don't know what hope there is beyond that.

I could be hard *ss, like his ex, but I fear he'd likely get physical with me. I think he decided after she cheated and left him, that he'd "never be treated like that again", and he sort of changed position on the drama triangle, and became what his ex had been to him. I am trying to stay above and out of it, but it's hard.

I also agree that niceness is never going to get me anywhere with him. It's funny that you quoted the definition of insanity, because I often quote that to BPDh: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. He got sick of hearing it, but I got so sad watching him do the same things that didn't work. At least I kept trying new things with him, and got busy working on ME. Trouble is, all things fail with him, and the only other thing to try is to be aggressive and awful(actually physically abusive) like his ex, and I refuse to do that. That is not who I am, and I will not sink to his level.

He seems to have moments of effort, and I have caught him reading up on his DBT notes, but when he gets angry, it all goes down the drain. My therapist says he seems to be wanting the marriage to survive, and seems to be engaged in couples therapy, which is a switch from the past.

In therapy today, we did talk about what my life would look like if I have to leave, or if he just pulls the plug, as he's so unpredictable.

I do agree that if nothing changes, nothing changes.

[Cat Familiar]

CB, you say "all things fail with him, and the only other thing to try is to be aggressive and awful... ."

This sounds like black and white thinking on your part. The way I look at it is there are a lot of approaches you haven't tried yet, that for some reason you seem unwilling to try.

For example: "I'm getting a job. The money I make is mine alone, since you seem unwilling to pay for my phone or to give me money I need for groceries."

"I'm visiting my son and my parents."

"I'm taking a cooking class by myself."

"The debts you accrued before marriage are your sole responsibility."

"If you want to stay married to me, treat me with kindness."


You don't have to be mean or unpleasant to say any of these things, just assertive. Breaking out of the meek subservient role is hard at first, but I can assure you, it gets easier with practice.

[Notwendy]

If I get a job, those resources then become his too. That is why I'm not okay with getting a job right now.

CB- I wish to address this statement, because, it is making your decision based on him.

If you are in a state with joint marital property, this is legally true, for him and for you. I am not a lawyer or familiar with such laws, but I don't think it is OK for a spouse to keep their earnings and not have the other one have basic needs like food money. - ie, drive a sports car while the other spouse has nothing. I really don't know the details about this, but if it isn't legally OK I don't think it is ok in a relationship for this to happen to this extent.

This statement also makes your decision because of him. But the benefits of a job to you extend way beyond the salary. They can include- social interactions, a sense of accomplishment, and you will be building up your resume for future jobs- learning skills and gaining contacts. A job is beneficial mentally. They have found that some people with depression have benefited from some jobs, probably because of the other benefits- but it wasn't all jobs, but jobs that involved a physical routine that were not emotionally taxing.

So while you may be wondering what jobs are there with your background, consider that all jobs have these benefits in some way. Even a part time job can do this. It also gets harder to get back in the workplace after a certain age so this is something to consider. The application process with jobs can be long, and so putting yourself out there- applying, interviewing- can take some time.

Income aside, I see retirees in all kinds of jobs that are different from their early careers. Retail at a boutique, bagging groceries. While the income is no doubt helpful, they do it for the other benefits.

I will also humbly argue about your self esteem. I personally don't think it is possible to live with being treated poorly and have good self esteem. It takes a toll on people. Having a job can build self esteem.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I've certainly had jobs, but I can honestly say that I do not tie my self esteem to a job, or tenuous things like that. I have good self esteem because I'm proud of the way I treat other, and how I conduct myself. I know it's hard to believe I have good self esteem because I stay in this marriage, but trust me, I do. No one that knows me says I suffer from self esteem issues. Not my parents, kids, therapist, no one. I certainly do not need to get my sense of self from BPDh. It would be nice if he would build me up instead of tearing me down, but I don't actually NEED that.

Part of this is due to my faith. I'm a pretty devout Christian, and at the end of the day, I know GOD loves me. I have great parents, and a good family of origin, and I guess I grew up knowing those that loves me thought I was smart and good. That has never left me.

I will be the first to admit all this can get depressing, but I don't let myself get bogged down in that anymore. I do lots of self care, and I'm in therapy too. I may or may not get a job, but that has actually added to my stress in the past when things already weren't great.

I say that he'd demand my paycheck because I've had four years to see how he operates. And he sort of told me that just a couple days ago. Also, I always have money squirreled away that he doesn't know about. For emergencies. I could have used that, but then he'd ask questions. I'm trying to make my life less stressful, not more... ..

Actually a lot of those things you stated are things I don't have issue with being assertive about:

I do go see my son and family when I want to(except my birthday weekend, but I won't let that happen again).

I just joined a foodie club, and I've gone to quite a few meetings. BPDh has now joined, but I'll have no problem telling him when I want to go SOLO. I joined to make friends, and have time away from him, after all.

I also just told him almost exactly what you stated about his finances. He and his ex created that debt, and I'm not taking it on. I stated it nicely, but firmly.

I'm getting better at being assertive, and maybe I always have been somewhat assertive, I just didn't think of it that way. I guess I just viewed it as "stating my truth". I don't need him to like it, or agree with it, it just is.

I don't think my thinking is black and white. Literally, all things I've tried have not given me what I'd consider "good results". Meaning he hasn't gotten any exponentially nicer, or more respectful. ONCE, I blew a gasket, and told him off, and he actually backed down, but I hate doing that, and that's really not me. It worked, but at what price?

I'm open to hearing what options you think I haven't tried. Please share them, and I'll see if I'm up to giving them a go.

[Cat Familiar]

OK, you say your husband would "demand" your paycheck if you got a job. Isn't there room for "NO" in your relationship?

Can you say, ":)emand all you want, but you're not going to get it."

[Ceruleanblue]

There are very few times I've said "no" to him. I think partners should try to be accommodating, but also, he just gets so unpleasant, that I think there are a lot of times I've given him his way, to spare the unpleasantness. I know that is counter productive, and I now realize it's just made things worse.

I'm doing better at this, but it's still an area that I need to work on. I don't view boundaries as saying "no", more just that I have parameters, so I don't really have to say "no". I still have minimal boundaries, but at least I have some.

I'm not really sure how he'd react if I said what you stated "demand all you want, but you aren't going to get it". Of course I wouldn't mind contributing, but I just don't think I should have to hand over every paycheck, and I'm positive that's what he'll expect, and he'll probably then think he can overextend us yet more.

I'm undecided about the job thing, but I'm considering it. It just seems like another area that will lead to more issues. He had me turn a job down a while back, but now he's back to beating that drum. That's just it, his moods, and what he wants change so suddenly. I could take a job, then he'd be unhappy about that too.

I guess I have to do what's right for ME, and let him worry about how he chooses to deal with it.

[Sluggo]

hat I think there are a lot of times I've given him his way, to spare the unpleasantness... .  It just seems like another area that will lead to more issues.

That is how I lived a lot of my marriage... .  Then over the years, little by little, I lost myself totally trying to spare the unpleasantness or not want to bring it up as it will lead to more issues.  I saw it at the end... .a death of a 1000 cuts.  Each one in of itself was something I could get past but it took me 18 years to realize that I gave up almost everything to try and keep her happy and keep the peace.  The cuts added up and were cumulative. 

[Notwendy]

CB, forgive me if this is being blunt, but I think your marriage works for you in a sense and this is something to consider. When you say you are doing what is right for yourself, I think you are- staying in this marriage is your primary wish.

I have followed your posts for some time, and although you are unhappy with your H's behavior, I think it is working for you, even though it can also upset you.

We've discussed costs and payoffs of behaviors. If a behavior continues, it is because the payoff is greater than the cost, even if the cost is high.

We've discussed this in terms of your H's behavior and the emotional costs to you. But not the payoffs. While the costs of his behavior do bother you, I think there are some payoffs to your response to it.

You have stated this before, that your primary goal is to stay married, even if the cost of this is high. That you are not certain if you have a bottom line, and at this point, no matter how far he pushes you, there really is no defined boundary about how far that is. At the moment, your primary goal is to stay married, even if it involves great sacrifice on your part. Your H pushes you to sacrifice for him. Your sacrifices help him to maintain his feeling of self worth- "I must be worth this to her". He likes this, and so keeps pushing for it. By sacrificing, you can feel you are maintaining the marriage. This is in conjunction with your primary goal. To not do this might rock the boat and risk the marriage. You have stated that you are not willing to do this.

You have stated that your main motivation to sacrificing is for the sake of the marriage. For instance, not getting a job because it could cause more issues, not doing things you want because it could cause more issues.

You gave up living with your son, to live with him. Although that bothers you very much, I get the impression that you see this as an act of love.

I think that these sacrifices for the sake of the marriage are a part of how you see yourself. You are the better person in this relationship. Your H pushing the boundaries gives you continuous opportunities to sacrifice.

I don't want to step over the boundaries of interpreting your religion for you, but I can't help but see Christian theological parallels of sacrifice and suffering- especially the idea that you gave up your son as a demonstration of love for your H.  Yes, I realize that you didn't do this literally, but the bond between a parent and child is strong. Your H set up the situation that you needed to choose him or your son. Someone else may not have created this choice, but your H did. However, I will argue that being a good human doesn't require that we sacrifice our relationship with our children to prove our love for someone.

By choosing, you indicated to your H that your marriage to him was more important.

IMHO, I would suggest that this imbalance of sacrifice to others but disregarding your self worth ( allowing others to mistreat you) is not theologically prescribed. Yet, if you feel it is, you may possibly be gaining some sense of fulfillment by doing this.

Some people see a purpose in a life of sacrifice. Perhaps you do too. I don't want to argue your reasons. However, if these are the reasons, then I think it is important to understand that, this is the benefit of your choices. Ideally, you would be married to a spouse who respects your feelings, but you are not. However, so long as your sense of self includes sacrifice, the payoff for this is going to be worth the emotional strife of your marriage.

If this is the case, then, of course posting here can help you connect with others who understand your situation, but- and this is the case whenever there is a strong payoff to the relationship, your H's behavior is unlikely to change unless you choose to change your response to it.

[Ceruleanblue]

Notwendy:

I think you nailed a lot of what I feel. I do sometimes feel I've sacrificed for the marriage, but not always. I do however feel that I have to be the "bigger person", due to his BPD/NPD, or maybe it's just pure selfishness on his part. Someone has to be the bigger person, and when he won't step up, I do. I don't think this makes me a doormat, or a hero, I guess I just view it as necessity. I do however think it takes a certain type person to do that. I'd admire that trait in others, and I'm glad I'm able to be that sort of person. I don't get any credit from BPDh, or course, but I like that I'm that sort of person. The best guy I ever dated, used to notice things like that about me, and the kind things he said about me, I still remember.

I did think that BPDh would at least appreciate the hard choice HE forced me to make in regards to my son. My son was also on board, and he also got zero credit. My son and I pay a price, but BPDh has zero appreciation for that. I chose the marriage, and I'd have thought that would be in some way reassuring to BPDh, but it doesn't appear so.

There are a few times I view my actions as having "taken one for the team", like when I finally apologized to BPDh's daughters(when I hadn't in fact done anything wrong), but I thought it would at least shut him up. I do consider that that one of those times. I knew it would be awful, it was beyond awful, and BPDh now admits he should NEVER have asked it of me. It wasn't the magic bullet he thought it would be, and he knows how much it hurt me.

I don't think making sacrifice makes someone a better person, although I think selfish people are less likely to be able to make sacrifices or compromises. I think if you are a good person, you know that sometimes sacrifices are necessary, or at least compromise is. I sort of think of it as taking up the slack.

There is definitely an imbalance in our relationship, but I do not think it's because my self esteem is lacking. I don't think I deserve the way he's treated me, or his kids have treated me. I don't think BPDh deserves the way his kids have treated him either.  I totally think I deserve better treatment, but I have to deal in realities. The reality is that my husband is some sort of disordered, and while I know I'm deserving of better treatment, HE may not be capable of ever being all I'm deserving of. My choice for now, is to stay married, knowing that I have to be good at meeting my own needs, and sometimes being the person who can bend. He sees black and white, so I have to be the one to see shades of gray. If I only focused on "I don't deserve this", I'd have been gone long ago. I never for one second thought I deserved this, or that I couldn't do better. I KNOW I CAN. I just don't want to start over, and I view quitting as dishonorable. I think my own stubborness, and determination keep me here, actually.

I don't feel I have to sacrifice or compromise, and I see it as more of a CHOICE. I definitely am not getting a sense of fulfillment from it, but I do think it serves the purpose of us staying married. There are times I balk, or just am unwilling to do something. I now am able to uphold some boundaries, which is way better than where I was a couple years ago. Back then, I was so afraid of him and his threats, that giving in seemed the only answer. Now, I think of it more as picking my battles. I want peace, but not at any price, if that makes sense? I weigh things, and see if I can compromise, or if I'll feel worse after having done so.

[Notwendy]

It's good that you are starting to work on boundaries. This is something I had to learn as well. Growing up with BPD mom, I didn't know how to have boundaries. I was expected to fulfill her wishes. Yet in my marriage, my inability to maintain boundaries was exacerbating behaviors that made me unhappy. I tend to be the one to give in to avoid conflict as well, until I decided to be more selective about that. It took a lot of work. I tend to be an easygoing person, but I was too far in that direction. I know that you didn't grow up in a FOO like mine, but how or where one acquires this pattern is possibly less important than understanding the pattern in the presence. Now, if two respectful people are paired with each other, there can be some reciprocity, appreciation of someone who is willing to compromise. However, when paired with someone whose nature is to step over boundaries without consideration, this kind of behavior can enable that.

The way I look at behaviors is from a behavioral approach, not a right-wrong one. It helps me to look at just the behaviors. I'm not a psychologist, but I did find the ideas to be something that work. I think they are described her in this board- especially the extinction burst. For a behavior to continue, there is a payoff, that is greater than the cost. It is good that you recognize the payoffs to you in your behavior. But again, there is little incentive to your H to change. He gets a payoff from his behaviors as well. The person who wants change has to change their behaviors. This happens when the cost becomes higher than the payoff. You don't like the way your H is treating you, but for now, there still are payoffs to you that you value. You are making some changes, which hopefully will give you some results that are better for you. Yet, you and your H are in a balance that both of you gain something from, and so many of the behaviors that result in that are likely to continue.

[Cloudy Days]

You said you feel like you have to be the bigger person sometimes because he won't be and that you do often sacrifice. Can you tell me your usual reasons for sacrificing? Is it because you are trying to avoid a blowup or put down? When you sacrifice something for him he doesn't appreciate your sacrifice and he is likely never going to because he expects it of you. I think it may be helpful of you to list everything you sacrifice so that you can be the bigger person in the relationship. And also include what you got out of that sacrifice. Maybe it would put it into perspective of how often you put him before yourself.

I used to consistently sacrifice everything for my husband but there are certain things I put my foot down on. One being my job, he's wanted me to quit and find a different job because he thinks I am cheating on him. Another one is Facebook, I compromised and took one friend off, I did sacrifice this one person but in reality she was a bit of a sociopath and my friendship with her was unhealthy, so I did it and in return I told him to drop the Facebook conversation. He brought it up several times after that but I stood my ground. I refuse to sacrifice by own well being to make him happy. It doesn't do anything for you but make you resentful and it doesn't do anything for him but make him expect it again and again. What should be noted is that my husband feels I have never sacrificed anything for him. This is important to me, because it points to the fact that no matter how much of yourself you give up for the disordered person, they aren't going to recognize it as a sacrifice. So why keep doing it?

So I suggest you try to choose your battles. Not everything is worth fighting for, I will give you that. But I think you getting a job and keeping the money for yourself would be a battle worth fighting for. He's going to insist that you give him your check, but you know what, it is YOUR check and you are not required to give it to him. You can compromise and offer to pay a bill, but don't give him your check. You don't have to become abusive to get him to back off, you just have to stick to your guns. Saying no is not a bad thing. I seriously think getting a job would help you a lot. Not only to be less isolated but to also have some independence from him.

[Notwendy]

One thing to consider is the theological limit to your honoring your marriage and your spouse. I am not certain, but I think one limit is when the spouse is doing something amoral. For instance, if your H insisted you murder your mother, I am fairly certain you would refuse, even if it meant he threatens divorce, because you have a boundary that you will not murder your own mother no matter what. Now, what if he told you he was going to murder someone? Would you call the police? I hope so.

But most of us thankfully do not struggle with such obvious ethical dilemmas. We struggle with the less serious ones. However, I would maintain that getting into a car with him or letting him drive drunk is possibly enabling him to do serious harm to someone. How about allowing him to be selfish, unkind, uncaring? Enabling such behaviors is enabling him to be a bad person.

One could look at appeasing him as taking the high road, or as harming him by allowing him to be a bad person to you.

[empath]

Someone has to be the bigger person, and when he won't step up, I do. I don't think this makes me a doormat, or a hero, I guess I just view it as necessity.

What is necessary about not allowing him to suffer the consequences of his poor choices to not step up?