Recently reconnected with exgfwBPD

[burritoman]

So, I'm switching boards here. I've been in the Detach forum for the last 3 or so months and I need some advice as I've recently reconnected with my exgfwBPD. She left me at the beginning of last November. Very textbook. She detached quickly, abruptly left over a phone call, then we went NC for 3 months. Within this time, I and my friends have tried to sort this out, and I came to realize that there was another guy in the picture. She gained weight, and she didn't look happy (all Facebook confirmations). Fast forward to Valentine's day when she broke NC and called. I ignored. She texted me some followup stuff about how depressed she is. I still ignored. A couple of days later I decided to finally text her to get all of her things out of my storage unit. First she said okay, then she was apologetic, then she called, then she blew up my phone with "I'm sorry for the way things went" texts. I was driving home so I couldn't respond, but curiosity got the best of me and I decided to call. That's when things got interesting.

We talked for over an hour and she was crying the entire time. She felt I hated her, which I truthfully denied. She dropped the magic words on me, that being that she's sick of being the way she is and destroying every relationship, and she's taken responsibility and gone into therapy. That's when I felt there might be hope. I then realized that we're having a very good open discussion about herself and the way she is without her raging at me. Her therapist has rediagnosed her from bi-polar to PTSD. We discussed treatment options for her and I recommended DBT. I began testing the waters with her, first saying that I've been doing a lot of research and I think you have a personality disorder. She was intrigued. Eventually I said that I think you have BPD, which she said is what her mother has. Point being, she allowed me to discuss these things openly.

Since then, we have met a couple of times. Initially to take a look at her things in storage, but it more or less turned into a day date. We saw each other again the next day. She wants to get back together but take things slow. Or rather, as "slow" as a BPD can offer. We did make out a bit, and she seems to have already fallen back into her comfort zone. This is partially my fault for not taking charge and slowing things down.

Now, here is the big problem. Within the time of being apart I learned many things about her. Firstly, I was informed that she cheated on me about 6 months ago with someone affiliated with her work. This story came from someone who frequented her work and was told by "a reliable source." Apparently, they left work together and had sex. That's all that's known. Secondly, I found out that SHE told my friend that she made out with someone last summer on a girls' vacation with her friends. No sex, but they made out. Thirdly, she owned up to me that she emotionally cheated with my replacement for some time before we broke up, then they slept together a couple of weeks later (after we broke up). After that, she did go through the motions of making him her boyfriend but it never felt right to her. She says that she backed away from him, but he was in love and stayed. I suggested that maybe she was using him for emotional support and leading him on even though she wasn't interested. She agreed. My same friends who told me the stories above said that they saw the two together at her work just two weeks ago, and they were more or less acting like a couple. She has very sternly denied that anything was still going on between the two.

This leads me to now. I've given her 5 or 6 opportunities to own up to any infidelity during our relationship. She has denied every time. She's owned up to using other men for emotional validation and emotionally cheating on me with my replacement. I specifically called her out on cheating on me on her girls' trip. She denied. She's repeatedly said that she never physically cheated on me during our relationship. So, I just don't know what to believe here.

The few friends I've talked to said that if I'm serious about getting back together with her, I'm going to need to let these things go and just get on with it, start off with a clean slate. In the back of my mind though, this isn't a clean slate. If these things are true (none of which can truly be confirmed as factual), she is lying to me, even after I told her that I'm willing to let go of the past but I need to know what happened. At some point I need to either believe her or accept these things as fact, then just get on with it. The problem though is that if she IS lying to me and she believes she's pulled a fast one, she could very well do it again. I believe her that she wants to be well, and a couple of months in therapy is certainly not enough to show true improvement, but it's a start. I've established my boundaries with her, most importantly that she stays in therapy. Her being dishonest leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I just don't know that I can trust her.

So, I just don't know what to do here. Can anybody please offer me some insight? Thanks in advance.

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[Lonely_Astro]

Hey,

You know my story.  The reason I am on this section of the board is because I like to read about those wanting to stay committed (and I also check out the deciding board, too).  I am DNR/Release with Grace with my ex, J.  There's just no going back because of everything thats happened post-breakup in December.  But, I want to offer you some advice.  I know you're on the staying board, when it sounds to me more like you are on a deciding ledge.  I'm not sure how far back you got into my story, so I'll tell you a little bit.

J and I reconnected last year after 3 years NC.  She seemed so grounded and lucid.  She told me she was medicated and had been through DBT.  She told me she was managed.  She said she knew she was still BPD, but when "stuff" got to her, she could now handle it with techniques she had learned in therapy.  We talked for ages about the past, present, and future... .she took responsibility for things I never thought she would and so on.  It was unbelievable how much she had grown, how much she had matured.

Except, she hadn't.  You know how my story played out.  J left me right after starting DBT.  She had, in fact, lied about having been through DBT when we started talking again.  She had, in fact, lied about a lot of stuff.  I had been out of a r/s with her for 3 years prior to us starting up again.  She had claimed to me that she had been in DBT for those 3 years... .which was a lie.  I'm not saying that yours isn't being sincere.  I want to make that clear, but you said something that is going to be hard for you to overcome: lack of trust.  I should know, I've been there.

The entire time I was with J, I struggled with trusting her.  Was she actually 'better'?  Was she lying to me?  Did she really have the fortitude to stay with me for the long haul?  Her car wasn't at home when it should've been, why?  Was the reason she gave me truthful?  What will happen after your first disagreement?  I pose these questions as rhetorical.  I experienced all of them and many more as the year with J progressed.  It turned out that J had frequently lied to me and misled me, even when she didnt have to.  My lack of faith in fully trusting her was a gut feeling.  That feeling was right, but I didnt know that at the time.  That seed of doubt has been planted in your mind as well and it's a hard thing to overcome.

I let all of it go, burrito.  I was committed to working on it with her after she had been seeing another guy for a month without my knowledge.  But you know what?  J never accepted that.  Not once.  She was always putting thoughts in her head about my thoughts.  No matter how much I showed her I was willing to work with her, it didnt matter.  There were times she was lucid with me, sure.  But trust was always an issue because J never trusted herself.  J never trusted me, either, which she told me that toward our end.  She said she didnt know why, I had never given her a reason not to, but she hadn't.  Of course, after our last breakup Ive found out a ton of stuff I wish I hadn't.  If I had this same knowledge then that I have now, I would've have went back.

Of course, everyone's situation is different.  If you can make it work with your SO, by all means, reach for the moon!  I would give almost anything to work it out with J and have a life with her... .but I don't think I could do it.  There's just to much water in the boat.

That's my insight.  Just be careful and take care of yourself.

[tryingsome]

Well, you are on the improving board, so here goes.

First she is probably lying to you; she's in a pickle as she doesn't want the shame of either being a liar or a cheater.

So I wouldn't press it. It'll just push her away.

Since you want to continue, you must realize she likely will not change.

So the cheating and whatnot will likely happen again. Maybe a year or five; but you shouldn't doubt when she finds herself in a similar situation it might likely happen again.

You will have to be okay with this.

The only person that can make her want to change is herself. No hemming or hawing about DBT or therapy or this or that will help. It really has to come from a low place within the person to want to change. It is not something you can ask of them.

Part of acceptance is knowing this is who they are and they do on some level dislike themselves for it.

They can still love you (as best as they can). And you can get a lot out of the relationship.

It just won't be perfect or any notion of being an honest relationship.

If they are with you, it is because they want to be with you.

But it is a lot to ask to stop their impulsivity.

Don't push for honesty. Lead by example and realize she is going to make mistakes most people call 'deal-breakers'

[TheCodependent1]

You have relapsed with your drug of choice, your ex-BPD. In my opinion you need to realize just an an addict can't have a healthy relationship with heroin, your history indicates the same with your ex-BPD. Get out now and fast.

[kc sunshine]

Such an interesting thread. I wonder if you all could get to the subject in another way-- less direct and more general, e.g. using sex as a way to soothe emotions. That way she could talk in general about it, and wouldn't have to get into the specifics of things that are shameful for her.

I agree with tryingsome's advice. In some ways, maybe it is like getting into a relationship with someone who struggles with alcohol, etc.

Sending love to you guys!

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't believe you should move forward with a 'clean slate' and just 'forget' what you know.

I think this is a situation for RA. 

You are aware that she is dishonest. 

You are aware that she does not behave monogamous. 

So... .Are you willing to accept that as a fact and continue forward into this relationship?

[burritoman]

I don't believe you should move forward with a 'clean slate' and just 'forget' what you know.

I think this is a situation for RA. 

You are aware that she is dishonest. 

You are aware that she does not behave monogamous. 

So... .Are you willing to accept that as a fact and continue forward into this relationship?

By RA do you mean reconciliation attempt? Also, her behaving monogamously, I don't know. I can't confirm it. She won't tell me. I'm only going off of stories from a trusted source. They could be all true, they could be all lies.

Well... .here's what's going through my mind. I love her, I care about her. I want what's best for her, I want what's best for "us," but I also want what's best for ME. I want to know that the woman I'm with is being honest, and that if there is a situation in her life then she can come to me and be open. I've given her those attempts, and honestly I'm not 100% that she IS being honest.

Here's a weird one. I've spoken to her every day and night since we opened communication again over a week ago. She ALWAYS calls on her way home from work. The other day, however, she texted me saying she was home doing some stuff. Sent me a picture of the beer she was drinking, which was taken in her bedroom. Now, the next day my mutual friend wrote to me, the one who filled me in on that info in my initial post, and said that I should ask her what she did last night because it'll be interesting to see if she's being honest. She claimed to have intel that she, that guy, and others went out to a bar after work. We were texting here and there through the night, but she claimed she was doing laundry, looking for jobs, etc. Now, I pressed this girl further, but she later retracted saying it was a false alarm and DIDN'T happen. I asked her why she didn't call, and she claims that she DID but it went to voicemail. Granted, I WAS on the phone during this time, so it's possible that my call waiting didn't activate. But, now I just don't know what to believe, and my head is twisting these stories around trying to work out the truth.

So, how this all relates to the initial question of is this a life that I want to live... .I guess I just don't know. I just want honesty. With honesty comes trust. She claims she did hit rock bottom and that's why she finally sought treatment. She doesn't want to feel this way anymore. I trusted her on that, which is why I even reopened the lines with her. But, if she's starting this next round on lies, she's off to a very bad start.

If I ask myself what do I do, well, I just don't know.

[Sunfl0wer]

By RA, I mean radical acceptance.  Accepting all of who she is as fact without compartmentalizing her good and bad parts.

What I wrote was based on your post saying she cheated on you.  It sounded like you were stating that her cheating on you is a fact that you discovered, however, it sounds like you are not so sure?

I looked back to get an idea of your history with her:

Our relationship lasted roughly 31 months.

She ticks off all of these red flags, but these are the ones that most affected me in the relationship.

... .

unresolved previous relationship(s)

She had an endless supply of ex boyfriends who she would reference. It was always "I once dated a guy who... ." and she always made him out to be the one with the problem. I didn't question how many men she'd been with, but it did irk me that she would bring them up all the time. ESPECIALLY the guy before me, who she first painted to be Satan himself, but over time her story and thoughts about him became more sympathetic. She brought this man up within minutes of first meeting her. Looking back, a suspicious number of her ex boyfriends from even 10 years prior seemed to keep creeping back into her life, reaching out to her seemingly out of nowhere. It would lead to a fight between the two, and I'd tell her to tell him to leave her alone and block the man from her life, but she never did. They'd argue and she'd patronize him to me. Bearing witness to this behavior, and now being the ex, I know better than to reach out to her or try to start things again because she'll treat me the same way she did them.

how did it change your participation/commitment to the relationship?

Overall, I'd say this behavior first had me raising an eyebrow, but I went with it thinking I could fix her. Over time I realized that I always had my guard up around her and wouldn't cave in to her demands.

With the other red flags, she would turn them against me. She wanted to smoke pot with me to bring us closer together, she wanted marriage, she wanted unprotected sex, and wanted to move forward. After all of these pressures and arguing, it made me just throw my hands up in the air and stop trying so hard. I'd get sucked into arguments to where I'd just put the phone down and let her go on and on. If she'd stop talking it would only last for 2-3 seconds before she'd start going again. Same thing with texting. Sometimes I'd get 20 texts in a row, so I had to wait for her to completely stop before carefully responding. My then lack of effort led to her getting more upset. It was a constant downward spiral, occasionally rejuvenated by her acts of "genuine" love. I've seen her cut close friends out of her life because she was sick of seeing their political views on FB, storm out of businesses because she didn't like the attitude the clerks gave her, and get defensive with strangers. On the flip side, she'd be nurturing to animals and empathetic to people in need. With all of the fire in her belly, at the end of the day she'd snuggle up to me and we'd sleep with my arm around her. She was like a hurt child who just needed to be loved.

It sounds as though you always did have trust issues with her.  Understandable as it sounds like she enjoyed the attention of men and seemed to 'need' lots of male attention to feel valuable.  Is that something you are prepared to accept and live with... .continued trust issues?

[C.Stein]

Well... .here's what's going through my mind. I love her, I care about her. I want what's best for her, I want what's best for "us," but I also want what's best for ME. I want to know that the woman I'm with is being honest, and that if there is a situation in her life then she can come to me and be open. I've given her those attempts, and honestly I'm not 100% that she IS being honest.

I think the only thing you can be 100% sure about is she will not be honest with you always ... .which by extension means you cannot trust her.  If you can't live with this then you need to take a step back and be honest with yourself.

[C.Stein]

Understandable as it sounds like she enjoyed the attention of men and seemed to 'need' lots of male attention to feel valuable.  Is that something you are prepared to accept and live with... .continued trust issues?

This was very much an issue with my ex and kept me in a constant state of anxiety and fear, especially given a veiled threat to cheat on me in the first two weeks of our relationship.  While I did give her my trust and always ended up giving her the benefit of the doubt even when the gut instinct was telling me she was being less than honest, there was always that nagging little voice deep in my mind telling me that perhaps I was misplacing my trust.  Turns out that nagging little voice was correct.

[burritoman]

Understandable as it sounds like she enjoyed the attention of men and seemed to 'need' lots of male attention to feel valuable.  Is that something you are prepared to accept and live with... .continued trust issues?

This was very much an issue with my ex and kept me in a constant state of anxiety and fear, especially given a veiled threat to cheat on me in the first two weeks of our relationship.  While I did give her my trust and always ended up giving her the benefit of the doubt even when the gut instinct was telling me she was being less than honest, there was always that nagging little voice deep in my mind telling me that perhaps I was misplacing my trust.  Turns out that nagging little voice was correct.

Well, let me ask. This is strictly a devil's advocate question, and I'm not trying to paint myself to be at fault for her actions. How much of the BPD's behavior is guaranteed, and how much of it is the non's fault for not doing their part to validate and keep them in line? In my case, her attention from other men and the possible infidelity came out of times when I could not be there to fill that void, and I was not progressing the relationship the way she saw fit. If I were to readjust my behavior to be a more loving and engaging partner and made her feel more validated but not being made a doormat, why would she lie and cheat? Is it ingrained into their behavior? Or does it come from a place of frustration and fear?

[C.Stein]

Well, let me ask. This is strictly a devil's advocate question, and I'm not trying to paint myself to be at fault for her actions. How much of the BPD's behavior is guaranteed, and how much of it is the non's fault for not doing their part to validate and keep them in line? In my case, her attention from other men and the possible infidelity came out of times when I could not be there to fill that void, and I was not progressing the relationship the way she saw fit. If I were to readjust my behavior to be a more loving and engaging partner and made her feel more validated but not being made a doormat, why would she lie and cheat? Is it ingrained into their behavior? Or does it come from a place of frustration and fear?

You can't always be there to fill the void or to validate and you shouldn't have to be. How many "slips" can you tolerate from her?  How many second chances are you willing to give her?  If the answer is not unlimited then you need to ask yourself what you are really doing here?

My ex sought attention from men right in front of me, which is confounding and emasculating to say the least.  In fact it seemed the more I filled that particular void the more unstable she became with respect to that.  It was a problem with her past boyfriends and despite her saying otherwise it was a problem with me.  :)espite her saying otherwise it will be a problem with my replacement and his replacement ... .!

The lying part, there is nothing you can do about that.   With my ex I believe there were times she might not have even realized she was lying and/or had convinced herself it was not a lie.  If the lies come easier than the truth there is no amount of validation or void filling you can do to prevent it.  This is just a part of who she is and it is something you will need to accept.  Can you accept that?

I know where you are at my friend.  I want to believe the same things too and I have struggled with this very question quite a bit.  Not because I have another chance but because I gave serious consideration to the "what if" I did have another chance or "what if" I knew what I know now at the beginning of our relationship.  Somehow I can't seem to convince myself that it would have played out any differently.  Perhaps it would have been better, we might have lasted longer, but at the end of the day it more likely that not would have ended the same, it just might have been worse fallout (marriage, kids).  These things are part of her core character and until she can be consistently self-aware and more importantly self-restraining this will never change.

[hashtag_loyal]

Part of acceptance is knowing this is who they are and they do on some level dislike themselves for it.

This is quite the understatement. My dBPDxgf absolutely hates herself for all the hurt she's caused.

Burritoman, I'm going to echo the same advice as everyone else on this thread: If you do take her back, do so without the expectation of either monogamy or honesty. Both of those things are extremely hard for many pwBPD.

In my ex's instance, she eventually opened up about all (most?) of the cheating, but it took months of talking to her and gaining her trust before she opened up even a tiny bit. Talking about her emotions in general is incredibly difficult, and touching on anything associated with the deep levels of shame are all but impossible.

If we ever do get back together, my relationship goals will be for her to start hating herself less and at least try to not have sex with every guy she possibly can. That may sound cynical, but it's really not. She is a very disturbed individual.